MD/PhD vs. PhD

[vixenell]

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I've seen a few quasi-related threads (PhD v. MD, MSTP v. MD) but I was wondering if anyone applied to MD/PhD programs and PhD programs. It seems like the consensus on this board and from some friends that its more worth while to "fall back" on the MD in hopes of switching to MD/PhD later.

I'm still torn between MD/PhD and PhD. I've wanted to be a doctor since i was a kid, but I've most recently become interested in research. My primary interest as of now is neuropharmacology, and basically any study involving neurodegenerative diseases.

I guess what I'm asking is which single path would be more likely to have the best of both worlds (as far as bench and clinical research or clinical exposure goes) for this area: MDs or PhDs?

Some pros of applying MD/PhD and PhD :
- pretty much a guaranteed stipend for biomedical science
- There's still the potential MD "fall back"

Cons of applying MD/PhD and PhD:
- additional application fees
- additional travel fees for interviews
- GRE ( I dunno, but for a poor person like me, this starts to add up)

Pros to applying MD/PhD alone:
- no additional app fees for MD
- no additional testing for MD
- an almost guaranteed "fall-back"
- there's always an opportunity for clinical research via fellowships in case of MSTP rejection

Cons to applying MD/PhD alone:
- MD only: debt potentially
- ???

 

[ready]

I thought of this. For me, the fallback option of an MD rather than PhD was more suitable to my interests and desires.

Cons of PhD:
No opportunity for patient care.

 

[surge]

Originally posted by vixenell
I guess what I'm asking is which single path would be more likely to have the best of both worlds (as far as bench and clinical research or clinical exposure goes) for this area: MDs or PhDs?

Hey vixenell,

well, I'll take a stab at this, although I see how some will probably disagree.

Let me put it quite bluntly first, and argument it later: If you are under any circumstances EVER considering even the SMALLEST BIT of clinical experience (patient treatment), you should never consider PhD only over MD alone.
Of course I have nothing against PhDs, but this is just not a good option for those hoping to do clinical work (I know one can do clinical research as a PhD, but I am talking about patient care).

For one, I would argue that there is little doubt that an MD/PhD degree is the best way to go for someone like yourself, who is interested in both being a doctor and doing research (hence the 'physician scientist' in the Physician Scientist Training Program). The only real drawback is how competitive it is. In other words, unless you are unable to get into an MD/PhD program (I am ignoring factors such as length of training here), that is the option that will give you the best preparation for what you want to do.

Now, if you can't, of course, you need to find another way. And, yes, I have to say, again, presuming you are staying true to your goal of being a doctor and doing research, that an MD degree is really the only option. I'm not saying this just because you might be able to switch to MD/PhD later. You can be a physician scientist with an MD only degree - and, as a matter of fact, most current physician scientists are (still outnumber MD/PhDs, by far). The only scenario in which you should consider doing a PhD only is if you only want to do research. And, if that's the case, it's probably an easier and cheaper option anyway (sorry - I mean easier to get in, intellectually, it's probably more challenging than MD alone).

Now, as far as the pros/cons go, you should notice that indeed, applying to MD/PhD and then extra PhD does carry some disadvantages as compared to MD/PhD only (or MD/PhD + MD only - this is just a checkmark on your application, and sometimes it's by default anyway). Although most PhD programs tend to pay your interview expences, it is probably true that you would have to take the GRE, which is not necessary if applying MD/PhD.

But, I can't overemphasize the importance of doing what will enable you to be involved in the kind of work you want to do. If this includes clinical medicine in any way, shape, or form, you need an MD.

Anyway, that's my view of things, I'm sure other's will feel differently. Tell me more about the specific nature of work you want to do, and maybe there are indeed other options.

The good thing is, you are asking these questions at the right time! 😉

 

[vixenell]

It seems that in the field I'm interested in, having the MD is somewhat more of an added incentive. There's a part of me that wouldn't mind spending the rest of my life in a lab, but then again, there's another, slightly more annoyingly egotistical part of me that wants to see the relatively immediate results of my efforts.

I have a broad idea of what I want to do: improve treatment for neurodegenerative diseases. Its just a matter of how I plan to apply this. Research alone is enough to satisfy my thirst for knowledge, but I fear that the what-ifs that will inevitably come along should I decide to go for PhD alone will haunt me for years.

 

[nooreen]

Vixenell,

Rather than thinking of the pros and cons of the application cycle, I think you should consider the pros and cons of your career options with MD, PhD or MD/PhD.

At any rate, I initially planned to apply for MD/PhD and PhD programs. As it turned out, getting the MD/PhD apps out, going to interviews, etc. was more than enough work. I never completed the PhD applications.

I don't know what else is going on in your life (are you in school right now? working?), how many schools you're planning to apply to, or how competitive your application is.

However IF YOU WANT AN MD/PhD, apply to MD/PhD programs. Instead of applying to PhD programs and diffusing your effort, you should spend the time researching schools you are interested in or apply to a few additional MD/PhD programs.

Good Luck!!!
--Nooreen

 

[vixenell]

Originally posted by nooreen
Vixenell,

I don't know what else is going on in your life (are you in school right now? working?), how many schools you're planning to apply to, or how competitive your application is.

However IF YOU WANT AN MD/PhD, apply to MD/PhD programs. Instead of applying to PhD programs and diffusing your effort, you should spend the time researching schools you are interested in or apply to a few additional MD/PhD programs.

Good Luck!!!
--Nooreen

I'm in school (still a freshman, so i've got some time before the application process affects me), and already , I am up to my ears in brochures and pamplets on both MD/PhD and PhD graduate programs. I've looked at dozens of programs for each, and I see the advantages of both as far as planning a career goes. I can't really say how strong an MD/PhD candidate I am numberwise, simply because the numbers aren't there yet.

I'm attending a MD/PhD summer research program this summer, which will hopefully give me some idea as to whether that particular path would be of my best interest. I have a pretty good idea of what I want to do, its just the matter of figuring out the best way to do it, which is why I'm torn between the two.

 

[Neuronix]

vixenell it's your decision to make. I recommend you apply to both though. That way you can see what they're both all about first hand. If you applied to say 10 MD/PhD programs and 5 PhD programs I'm sure you will get into at least one of each, and then you can decide based on what you have learned. If you want some help deciding which schools you should apply to, PM me sometime. I have an interest in neurodegenerative diseases (I'm a neurotrophin guy right now) and I'd love to help people apply to all the right schools instead of all the wrong schools like I did!

One pro of the MD/PhD career, even if you decide to do 100% research in your career, is the demand for MD/PhDs. When it comes to post-docs, faculty positions, and grant money, you will have an edge over PhDs. Biomedically relevant research is getting the money these days, as basic science researchers are feeling a tighter budget begin to strangle them. Of course you know about the flexibility, but it's hard to know if patient care is for you without doing some patient care first hand.

Good luck!

 

[surge]

Excellent points, neuronix.

Out of curiosity, why do you feel you applied to wrong schools?

 

[Neuronix]

Originally posted by surge
Out of curiosity, why do you feel you applied to wrong schools?

Thanks surge!

So in answer to your question: I did not think my application was as strong as it was. I thought that anything in the top-10 would be a "dream school" for me, so I limited the number of schools at that level I applied to. I now wish I had applied to Yale, Columbia, and Cornell. I should have never bothered with programs like UMaryland and URochester that I viewed as "safeties".

Meanwhile I didn't apply to any West Coast schools because I was scared of interview costs and cost of living. I now know I should have tried Stanford, UCSD, UCSF, and U Washington.

Further, I did not apply to NYC schools because I thought cost of living would be too high and I was convinced that the urban life wasn't for me. I dunno what the hell was going through my mind.

When I visited schools like Pitt, Baylor, and UMich I had no idea that these suburban schools would be so far removed from housing and so difficult to get in and out of. I had assumed if a school wasn't in the middle of a city, it would be easy to drive in and go to class every day like it is at my undergrad. Further, it seems to me that living in the big cities really doesn't end up being that more expensive than living in these suburban schools.

So I had no business applying to schools like Pitt, Baylor, or Michigan. They're not particularly strong in my area and I hate the locations. This goes for some other programs I'm forgetting as well.

I now know that I want to work on repair/regeneration of the CNS. I also know I would prefer to be in an urban environment. There I don't have to worry about commuting, traffic, parking, etc... Also, it is easy in such places to get to entertainment.

I guess in retrospect I learned alot doing what I did. However, I wish I had gone at it someone else's style and just applied to all the top programs. That way, maybe the programs would have gone into a bidding war over me, and even had they not, I would have been able to check them all out first-hand, rather than cutting out so many options before I began. Regardless of all of this, if I get into Penn I will be happy.

 

[jmed]

Originally posted by vixenell


Cons of applying MD/PhD and PhD:
- additional application fees
- additional travel fees for interviews
- GRE ( I dunno, but for a poor person like me, this starts to add up)

hey vixenell- I have done some soul-searching about the MD/PhD vs. PhD dilemma, myself. I initially wanted to be a physician, but have had such a great experience doing bench research that I applied to PhD only as a back-up (as opposed to the MD consolation prize) in case I didn't get into MSTP. I don't think anyone can argue against MD/PhDs having better career options, but that doesn't mean you can't succeed with a PhD alone. Just do what you want, rather than doing what is statistically most likely to give you the most success- that's my 2 cents... I think the need to train investigators for translational research is such that there are opportunities for PhD students to be trained in the clinics part-time as part of their own education. Maybe some of the other SDNers know more details about the specifics? I know at MIT (where I am leaning pretty heavily towards their bio PhD), students can take classes at HMS in partial fulfillment of their PhD - by the way: they accepted my MCAT scores in place of GREs without a fuss, although Berkeley said I would be 'severely handicapping myself' if I tried that there... My impression has been that there are many paths to get yourself to a career in translational and/or clinical research, MD, PhD, or MSTP; as long as there is some flexibiity in the program, and you are creative and motivated, I think you can find ways to make it work. But that is just my opinion; anybody else have experience with this?

 

[vixenell]

Thank you all for your insight...

My advisor put me in contact with an alumna from my school, and she went through the same predicament during her junior and senior years. She ultimately decided to go PhD at Rockefeller, and pretty much told me the same sort of thing Neuronix, surge, and jmed did.