MD/PhD while PhD

[Mnbvcxz]

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Hi,

Is it easier, the same or harder to get into a MD/PhD program if one applies during the 1st year of their PhD program (at the same school/at different schools)? Is it frowned upon to do that?
Can one get into a very good PhD program in Cell Biology, Pathology or Microbiology whith as science classes only the pre-med requirements, but about 3 years of microbiology undergrad research (10h/w)?

Thank you

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Hi,

Is it easier, the same or harder to get into a MD/PhD program if one applies during the 1st year of their PhD program (at the same school/at different schools)? Is it frowned upon to do that?
Can one get into a very good PhD program in Cell Biology, Pathology or Microbiology whith as science classes only the pre-med requirements, but about 3 years of microbiology undergrad research (10h/w)?

Thank you

1) A medical school is not going to like that you did not finish with at least a masters, it implies your a bad investment. It is also dumb to put all your hopes into one program.
2) It's likely program specific, but I would say that you'd likely be doing yourself a disservice applying with little exposure to advanced sciences.

If you want to get into an MD/PhD program, you'd be better off getting a high mcat and continuing your research.

 

[aSagacious]

Is it easier, the same or harder to get into a MD/PhD program if one applies during the 1st year of their PhD program (at the same school/at different schools)? Is it frowned upon to do that?

Harder, med schools do not like to poach students from other graduate or professional programs. You would have to do a magnificent job of convincing them of your change of heart.

Can one get into a very good PhD program in Cell Biology, Pathology or Microbiology whith as science classes only the pre-med requirements, but about 3 years of microbiology undergrad research (10h/w)?

If you've got a good GPA and GRE, yes I think 3 years of quality research would be enough to land in a solid program. Were you published at all? (Even if as a co-author).

 

[Mnbvcxz]

Thanks serenade. What would be the best solution for me then if I want to do MD/PhD, given that in the very best case scenario, I could only finish my pre-med requirements at the end of my senior year (and have no other science classes)?

Thanks, aSagacious. I'm a sophomore starting research now so I haven't been published but I have 3 years to try to be.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Thanks serenade. What would be the best solution for me then if I want to do MD/PhD, given that in the very best case scenario, I could only finish my pre-med requirements at the end of my senior year (and have no other science classes)?

Thanks, aSagacious. I'm a sophomore starting research now so I haven't been published but I have 3 years to try to be.

Pretty much try to get a publishing and a high ass mcat score...

 

[aSagacious]

Thanks, aSagacious. I'm a sophomore starting research now so I haven't been published but I have 3 years to try to be.

Oh, my apologies, I thought you were a first year PhD student. 🙂 If you think that you might not be competitive for an outright acceptance to an MD/PhD program, some MD schools let you apply to their associated PhD programs after your first year of med school. Otherwise you'd likely have to finish your PhD (or be in your last year) before applying to med school.

In any event, think carefully about what your career goals are before applying MD/PhD. Consider the fact that MDs can research autonomously after a brief fellowship. Additionally many med schools offer one year research externships (usually after second year) in order to pursue your interests in a specific field (if you're looking to make yourself more competitive for residency).

From the few MD/PhDs that I've spoken to, they all describe the degree as one that is designed for 'research first and clinical second' as far as work environment (of course you could choose the converse, but that's the general trend anyway). In my opinion, the PhD is only necessary if you want to run your own lab after residency. If you only want to do research while a practicing physician, an MD + fellowship will be sufficient.

 

[LizzyM]

You've got to have a strong research bent and at least a little clinical experience. You could do an MS or get an NIH gig for a year or two to boost your resume before applying to MD/PhD programs. They tend to be at the top schools and you need the stats to get you into one of those top schools plus research interests that are in sync with the interests at the school(s) you want to attend. And you need to be sure that you are interested in a career that is 50-90% research with a little clinical service the rest of the time.

If you have 3 more years of college, your goal should be good gpa, good MCAT, & good research experience with a stellar letter from your PI and strong skills.

 

[Mnbvcxz]

Thanks again aSagacious. I hadn't realized that MD/PhD mostly lead to research.

Thanks LizzyM. I think I'm mostly worried because I am an international applicant and I thought that a couple semesters of grad work could make look more attractive for a MD/PhD program. Would that also be true for a regular MD program? It also seemed that MD/PhD might have better funding opportunities for international students than regular MD, but of course I wouldn't want to waste these ressources if I want a predominantly clinical career. In your experience, can international students in a MD program ever get the same type of funding (scholarship+stipend) as international students in a MSTP ?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Thanks again aSagacious. I hadn't realized that MD/PhD mostly lead to research.

Thanks LizzyM. I think I'm mostly worried because I am an international applicant and I thought that a couple semesters of grad work could make look more attractive for a MD/PhD program. Would that also be true for a regular MD program? It also seemed that MD/PhD might have better funding opportunities for international students than regular MD, but of course I wouldn't want to waste these ressources if I want a predominantly clinical career. In your experience, can international students in a MD program ever get the same type of funding (scholarship+stipend) as international students in a MSTP ?

An MD/PhD is pretty much for people who want to be primarily a researcher. It's also probably significantly more difficult if not impossible for a international student to get into an MD/PhD program.

 

[caliQ]

The MSTP programs funded by the NIH are only allowed to support US citizens with the government funding. Some of them do have other spots paid for with private donations/grants/whatever. Being a non-US citizen is going to make your life harder either way.

 

[LizzyM]

Don't apply to an MD/PhD program for the money. They are hard to get into unless you have a super-strong research interest and experience and while you are likely to be shunted off to the MD-only application pool, you will be late to that party and less likely to be interviewed than if you had applied MD in the first place.

International students are in the same boat as other students at international-friendly schools (mostly private) school: the bulk of your education will be paid for with your own funds and/or loans. Some schools will have some merit scholarships to attract people who are very, very strong and who might otherwise go elsewhere and/or some need based scholarships to help them complete for students who might otherwise choose another (often public) school based on price. (They do this to help attract a student body that is diverse in terms of socioeconomic status.)

Most physicians make a very good living after they finish their training. To attract physicians to the less well-paying specialties and activities, some groups offer financial incentives (in the form of loan repayment deals) for those willing to serve in rural areas, in primary care, in research, in the military.

 

[Mnbvcxz]

Thanks LizzyM, that makes a lot of sense

 

[Mnbvcxz]

I have another question. If I complete all my pre-requisites by my senior year, I would only want to apply to med school after I finish these, in the summer of that senior year. What free things could I do between finishing college and potentially going to med school? I have considered applying to funded 1-year (+summer) MS programs in the biological sciences. What else could I do? Thank you.

 

[URHere]

Hi,

Is it easier, the same or harder to get into a MD/PhD program if one applies during the 1st year of their PhD program (at the same school/at different schools)? Is it frowned upon to do that?
Can one get into a very good PhD program in Cell Biology, Pathology or Microbiology whith as science classes only the pre-med requirements, but about 3 years of microbiology undergrad research (10h/w)?

Thank you

As others have said...this plan just wouldn't work. MD/PhD programs are structured to reduce the amount of time students need to spend in graduate school (completing research rotations and grad classes during MS1/MS2 saves time). If you apply from a PhD program, you would end up rotating and finding a lab...only to leave them for 2 years while you complete your pre-clinical med school coursework. You wouldn't be able to save time by taking classes or doing rotations because you would have already done those things through your first PhD year...so you would likely end up doing sub-par, off-and-on work for your lab or even being required to take certain classes more than once to get through administrative red tape (and wasting time).

Combine that with the fact that your grad school knowledge may be outdated or your lab techniques may be rusty by the time you actually need to use them, and you can understand why applying MD/PhD while enrolled in a PhD program just doesn't work.

I have another question. If I complete all my pre-requisites by my senior year, I would only want to apply to med school after I finish these, in the summer of that senior year. What free things could I do between finishing college and potentially going to med school? I have considered applying to funded 1-year (+summer) MS programs in the biological sciences. What else could I do? Thank you.

You don't need to finish all of your pre-reqs before you apply - they just need to be done before you start medical school. So, you could theoretically apply the summer between junior and senior year and avoid the gap year situation altogether.

If you do decide to take an extra year off, you can do just about anything (provided that you finish any degree programs/teach for america/etc before you are scheduled to start med school). A research-based MS, a lab job, or a clinical job may help your application, but what you do is really up to you.

 

[Mnbvcxz]

Thanks a lot for your answer. If I apply in the summer before my senior year, I will only have completed the math (+AP), bio and general chemistry requirements and will not even have begun physics and organic chemistry. I think it would look pretty bad. I would probably also fail to do well on the MCAT since I would not have taken these classes since high school. Also I think missing out many days of classes to interview would not help me do well in my last year and get a 4.0.

 

[LizzyM]

Thanks a lot for your answer. If I apply in the summer before my senior year, I will only have completed the math (+AP), bio and general chemistry requirements and will not even have begun physics and organic chemistry. I think it would look pretty bad. I would probably also fail to do well on the MCAT since I would not have taken these classes since high school. Also I think missing out many days of classes to interview would not help me do well in my last year and get a 4.0.

You're right. Most students take chem and bio in freshman year, physics and o-chem in sophmore year and take the MCAT at start or end of junior year to apply at end of junior year.

If you can't complete those courses in the next 2 yrs (by the end of jr year) then you should plan for a gap year and do an MS program or prepare for a job in a lab or clinical setting for the year between college & med school.

 

[Mnbvcxz]

Thanks again LizzyM. Would it be significantly worse to spend a year doing undergraduate work as a special student and taking upper-level science classes, doing research (potentially at the same school I do it now) and volunteering, rather than a MS which I am worried I might not get into or complete before July to start med school?

I cannot get a clinical job here because of my international status. I could do research for free and pay rent, but if I am not going to get a grad school stipend and have to use my own/my parents' money, I might as well add 3k and go to school.

 

[LizzyM]

You might as well take a 5th year of college, if the price is right, and do some research without pay. That seems like the best option given your limitations as an international student.

 

[Mnbvcxz]

Thanks for your help