MD/PhD worth it for EM?

[DeadCactus]

I realize it depends a lot on your career goals, but would the PhD be of much benefit career wise if you ended up deciding you just wanted to do clinical medicine after finishing your schooling? Would there be much room to use it if you decided you wanted to?

PhD in Biomedical Engineering if it matters.

Thank you all for your time...

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[southerndoc]

Maybe our resident mud-phud will answer this.

You're not going to use the PhD in clinical practice, but you can make use of it in other ways (research, teaching, business inventions, etc.).

 

[The White Coat Investor]

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[DeadCactus]

To elaborate more on: "would the PhD be of much benefit career wise if you ended up deciding you just wanted to do clinical medicine"

I realize the intent of the programs is to develop people to work in the middle ground between clinical medicine and the basic sciences. If you finished the PhD but realized you didn't want be involved in that sort of work anymore, would simply having the PhD on your resume be beneficial at all?

Beneficial in terms of finding employment, salary, advancing up the ladder, or opening up other opportunities such as consulting? I would be inclined to believe it would, but can see how these benefits would disappear if you were not actively doing anything research wise.

 

[Hawk22]

The extra time probably isn't worth it to be honest, unless you want to do just research. An alternative is to get a 1 year MPH or MS, which gives you a great background and skill set without the huge time committment.

 

[deleted77919]

Beneficial in terms of finding employment, salary, advancing up the ladder, or opening up other opportunities such as consulting? I would be inclined to believe it would, but can see how these benefits would disappear if you were not actively doing anything research wise.

I believe your assesment is correct. It might help you get a job interview at an academic center, but your interview will quickly go south when you say "Yeah, I'd really like to work here, but to be honest I don't plan on doing any research. Actually, I don't want to teach any students either. In fact, I'm not sure why I'm here."

Edit: If you're looking for justification of md/phd just so you don't have to go into debt and are hoping advancement potential will tip things in the favor of the md/phd . . . it won't. It's a lot of work, a lot of years of lost income. To seriously consider it I think you would have to want to spend a significant amount of your time doing research.

 

[DeadCactus]

I'm looking at the MD/PhD for a number of reasons:



I enjoy engineering and at this point believe I want to continue learning more in the way of engineering and to help advance and contribute to the field. That being said, I want to be a Physician and I want to practice Medicine. An MD/PhD seems like a legitimate way to do both.

I enjoy teaching and want to get into an academic position to teaching medicine or biomedical engineering courses.

I like the idea of having a way out of medicine (if I ever decide I've had enough) that would still make use of my medical education and experience.

I like the idea of consulting being an option.

I like the idea of having that extra bump when it comes to applications and resumes.

I would be lieing if I said the idea of being debt free and having an income (although a small income) during med school is paletable.



I realize I've listed a lot of things here and that a person probably doesn't have enough time be a physician, professor, researcher, and consultant all in one.

My goal is to find two of these that mesh well with what I want to do once I experience the reality of what it's really like and to go with that. I'm just worried that when all is said and done if I decide I just want to do pure clinical medicine that my PhD will be a complete waste or that EM will not mesh well with a ClinicalMedicine and Basic Science Research type career...

 

[bellalou]

As a graduating MD/PhD student...here is my perspective.

Cons...Long, often tedious, does not benefit monetarily (the lack of debt is ofset by the many lost years of earned income), you can still do basic science research as an MD with a few years of post-doc/fellowship training, a basic science PhD gives you no training in clincial research (better to get MPH or MS in epidemiology/biostatistics). Mostly, now I am old and won't really have a "real" job until my late 30s.

Pros: If you truly love basic science research (as I do), you should do it. If you don't know if you want to do just research, just medicine, or both in the future, MD/PhD opens a whole host of options for you. I would say that MD/PhD students have an easier time getting into good residencies, but that probably only makes a big difference in the more competitive ones (Derm, Ortho, etc.). I found that having a PhD and a few extra years under my belt helped me in my clinical rotations - I maybe thought through differential diagnoses more crictically (I am not saying a PhD is required for this, but I am offering my own experience), I was used to being organized and working hard, and I was a little more emotionally mature (again, just being an older med student would offer the same experience).

Looking back, I am glad that I did it. I would not have said that last year after going through the last year of my PhD (which was a hellish nightmare).

I am going into Ob/Gyn, so I am not sure if this helps at all given that you are interested in EM. But I thought I was going into IM before starting clincial rotations, and that changed dramatically.

Feel free to PM me if you have questions. It is a big decision! Good luck.

 

[beyond all hope]

We have a MD/PhD in engineering who is now graduating from my residency. He wants to do clinical work in an academic center and spend his protected time working on medical devices. Definitely doable.

Obviously, you would be able to run a lab, get a great corporate job, do consulting, or be in academics. The MD/PhD wouldn't help much for community EM. It will help you on your resume, but probably not as much as spending the same amount of time being an ED assistant director or other such stuff.

It's definitely not worth it just for the money. The extra 3-5 years you spend on a PhD you could make a crapload more as an attending. Don't do it for the money. Just realize in seven years all of your friends will start to finish residency and go on to high-paying jobs when you're just staring your residency.

Basically, do it if you want to a research/consulting dude. For that it's worth it. For the resume, for the money, it's a waste of your time.

 

[Universe_Explorer]

As a PhD who will be applying to EM next year, I think there is tremendous opportunity for an academic career in the field. In a relatively young specialty, it seems like one would be able to find an endless amount of interesting projects - or even begin the charge to start studying problems like acute coronary syndromes or traumatic brain injuries from the EM perspective rather than the traditional cardiology/neurology angle. Of course, there is also toxicology. I would like to think that there will always be a place for people interested in academic medicine, whatever the specialty. Personally, I hope to find a way to practice clilnically as well as pursue academic interests...As always, I'd love to hear ERMUDPHUD's opinion on this...

 

[Hard24Get]

As a PhD who will be applying to EM next year, I think there is tremendous opportunity for an academic career in the field. In a relatively young specialty, it seems like one would be able to find an endless amount of interesting projects - or even begin the charge to start studying problems like acute coronary syndromes or traumatic brain injuries from the EM perspective rather than the traditional cardiology/neurology angle. Of course, there is also toxicology. I would like to think that there will always be a place for people interested in academic medicine, whatever the specialty. Personally, I hope to find a way to practice clilnically as well as pursue academic interests...As always, I'd love to hear ERMUDPHUD's opinion on this...

I am applying this year as a MD-PhD candidate, and it is important to note that EM is one of the few specialties that won't put much weight on the PhD in terms of matching and getting jobs. Also, people will treat you as if you are insane (There's no research in EM... or, it's not "cerebral" enough... or, 'you will never find a faclty appt in an EM dept that allows you research time' [that last was from my MD-PhD coordinator]). So, it's an uphill battle, and even beloved ErMudPhud is all clinical now, albeit mainly for personal reasons, (perhaps he will be the best to say whether the PhD is still advantageous despite not using it).


Also:

I enjoy engineering and at this point believe I want to continue learning more in the way of engineering and to help advance and contribute to the field.

what you are missing here is an expressed interest in RESEARCH, because that's what you would be signing up for; research can be hateful even to those who love it.

I enjoy teaching and want to get into an academic position to teaching medicine or biomedical engineering courses.

You can do academics either way but it will be difficult to arrange a dual EM/bioengineering appointment; keep this in mind

I like the idea of having a way out of medicine (if I ever decide I've had enough) that would still make use of my medical education and experience. I like the idea of consulting being an option.

There s always a way out of medicine; through consulting or otherwise - doesn't have much to do with the PhD. Also, if you get tired of clinical medicine, you will probably already be tired of research

I like the idea of having that extra bump when it comes to applications and resumes.

Liek has been mentioned, it is more of a strike against you than a "bump" if you are applying for a non-academic post; you could get a much less painful "bump" by starting a new club or something.

I would be lieing if I said the idea of being debt free and having an income (although a small income) during med school is paletable.

Not worth it for the pain, sweat, and tears of a PhD, not to mention lost income as a physician and some of the best years of your life. Honestly, you would be better off in the military if you would be doing this just for money (seriously, EM docs are doing amazing things in Iraq, etc).

 

[ERMudPhud]

Maybe our resident mud-phud will answer this.

You're not going to use the PhD in clinical practice, but you can make use of it in other ways (research, teaching, business inventions, etc.).

It won't make a difference for a clinical job. It more than likely would help with residency and academic jobs. It will give you more options in industry etc...

 

[EM2BE]

Maybe our resident mud-phud will answer this.

You're not going to use the PhD in clinical practice, but you can make use of it in other ways (research, teaching, business inventions, etc.).

 

[readyabout]

I can't speak from advanced experience, but I do have an MD, a bioengineering PhD, and am going into EM this coming year. My interests have varied over the years and so has my path. I assure you that if you start a 7-9 year program that you will meander a bit. With an MD, PhD program, you have some room to follow your own path.

As far as money, if you have any interest in that, go directly into engineering and work on the business end of things. If you are interested in money, run screaming from an MD, PhD program. Even MD programs can be a wash compared to some engineering jobs concerning money.

I have been living on a stipend for over a decade, but have a wife and child and house and cars. I enjoy what I do, I follow my interests, and I am getting to do amazing things. I have a lot of possible career routes and can go straight clinical or straight research at any time. I won't, though because I like to find out things no one else knows, while at the same time learning how to handle any situations and make people "not die." That quote is from a hospitalist friend.

If you like academics, research, and can put up or stay on the periphery of inane politics, then an MD, PhD is great. Bioengineering has potential without bound in EM, as there aren't really many MD, PhDs in the field. This could be due to it just being a "clinical" undertaking, or, from a longer perspective, due to it being a very young field. Clinical (private or academic or government), consulting, industry, academics and research (medicine or engineering), start-ups - name it and you will be qualified for it.

Good luck. Decide based on enjoying your life most of the waking hours. Even a dermatologist has to enjoy what they do, otherwise they spend most waking hours working on something they despise.