MD schools that don't do malicious pimping?

[On_The_Way_Up]

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Oh no, It's THAT guy!
Don't worry, he'll never make it into medical school.

Probably fail the interview when he/she picks a fight with the interviewer. Can’t imagine a MMI performance either.

 

[RomaniGypsy]

Examples?

Given a pen of sufficiently thin tip, I can write words, with neat and proper letter formation, in such small font that most people can't read them with the naked eye unless they get really close to the paper with good visual acuity, or use a magnifying glass. My hands are steady and there is no family history of diseases that cause muscular shaking.

 

[RomaniGypsy]

I've never experienced toxic pimping. More-so the former example. The first lesson I was taught as an M3 was during a peds rotation: "if you don't know the answer, just say 'I don't know.'" I was being asked about extravascular vs. intravascular HA's and, at first, what I would look for in a peripheral blood smear and other blood tests. Then, if I suspected intravascular HA, then what organ issues should I see? What tests to run? If it's extravascular, then what tests/treatments/side effects would I order/expect? Complications? Why would I prescribe penicillin for patients with extravascular HA's. And so on.

I believe in pimping without destroying a medical student's/intern's self-confidence. I would want to teach them to look at EVERYTHING, but without them second-guessing themselves on ordering a patient aspirin.

See, I'm totally cool with that. That's why I said "malicious" pimping... requesting that a student answer a relevant series of questions and then not belittling the student if he/she reaches the point of saying "I don't know" is fine. Surely, in medicine, a practicing doctor must be able to come up with, and answer, on his/her own, many such series of questions as part of the care of his/her patients. I'm the kind of guy who will look up the answer to a question I couldn't answer on my own, even if I'm not asked or required to do so. I don't like not knowing the answers, even though it's impossible to know them all.

Probably fail the interview when he/she picks a fight with the interviewer. Can’t imagine a MMI performance either.

For someone who's on the way up, it sure does seem like your knowledge of who I am as a person is on its way down. I have never, in my life, picked a fight with anyone who didn't attack me first, and I do have a fairly high threshold for what constitutes an attack. I don't start fights, but I will finish one that someone else starts with me. I demand respect from others because I'm a human just as they are. Everyone should be respected for that reason, from the chief of surgery all the way down to the janitor the hospital just hired two days ago... and the medical student.

Oh, and I'm a "he".

 

[IsleyOfTheNorth]

First, let me say that I don't think RomaniGypsy is a troll. Second, I'm glad he's still posting because I find him so interesting.

RG: Medicine is not for you, at least for a long while. Here's why. (Please don't take any of this personally, because I don't mean it derogatorily.)

Your ego is as large as it is fragile. You're worried about pimping because you've crafted this image of yourself as some sort of above-it-all genius. If you have to admit that you're wrong about something, that all comes crashing down. It's also why you're hesitant to engage in formal programs/academics. If you do, there's a serious chance of failure that you can't brush off (or at least, not without some creative excuses). Again, that would shatter your self-image. But if you stay on the periphery, you can enjoy the fantasy of being the misunderstood genius. A doctor that can't admit they were wrong or that they don't know something isn't a good doctor or a good scientist.

How do I know all of this? Because I am also an egomaniac to some degree.

I suspect you're smarter than the people you associate with, but not nearly as smart as you think you are.

Your response to me is likely to be (or should be): You'll accuse me of projecting. I'm not. You'll want to argue the point. Don't bother, I won't bite.

Your response to medicine will be: You'll decide against medicine. The real reason is a fear of failure. The reason you'll give when asked will probably be that the institution is fundamentally flawed - which is not untrue, making your excuse plausible.

You won't accept any of this of course, making my typing futile. Like I said though, I find people with inflated egos to be masters of self-deception - quite interesting and at least in part, a bit of a mirror for me.

I know I won't discourage you though, so I look forward to your future posts! 🙂

 

[Robin-jay]

Given a pen of sufficiently thin tip, I can write words, with neat and proper letter formation, in such small font that most people can't read them with the naked eye unless they get really close to the paper with good visual acuity, or use a magnifying glass. My hands are steady and there is no family history of diseases that cause muscular shaking.

lol, you don't even know what makes a good surgeon. I'm only in medical school, but some of the most efficient "hands on students" (students that are phenomenal dissectors, etc.) are not "only steady hands" individuals. It takes all kinds. Some of the best students are rather fast-paced and less "steady and cautious" than some TV shows would make you think. Watch the following video.



Your fantasies are not even close to the realities.

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

See, I'm totally cool with that. That's why I said "malicious" pimping... requesting that a student answer a relevant series of questions and then not belittling the student if he/she reaches the point of saying "I don't know" is fine. Surely, in medicine, a practicing doctor must be able to come up with, and answer, on his/her own, many such series of questions as part of the care of his/her patients. I'm the kind of guy who will look up the answer to a question I couldn't answer on my own, even if I'm not asked or required to do so. I don't like not knowing the answers, even though it's impossible to know them all.



For someone who's on the way up, it sure does seem like your knowledge of who I am as a person is on its way down. I have never, in my life, picked a fight with anyone who didn't attack me first, and I do have a fairly high threshold for what constitutes an attack. I don't start fights, but I will finish one that someone else starts with me. I demand respect from others because I'm a human just as they are. Everyone should be respected for that reason, from the chief of surgery all the way down to the janitor the hospital just hired two days ago... and the medical student.

Oh, and I'm a "he".

Hahahaha you’re attitude is just proving everyone right and making what everyone has said about you more valid. With all your insults at everyone you’ve got some insecurity issues. If you can’t properly interact with others or grow a backbone then you’re in the wrong line of work. You need to adjust yourself quick.

 

[Goro]

See, I'm totally cool with that. That's why I said "malicious" pimping... requesting that a student answer a relevant series of questions and then not belittling the student if he/she reaches the point of saying "I don't know" is fine. Surely, in medicine, a practicing doctor must be able to come up with, and answer, on his/her own, many such series of questions as part of the care of his/her patients. I'm the kind of guy who will look up the answer to a question I couldn't answer on my own, even if I'm not asked or required to do so. I don't like not knowing the answers, even though it's impossible to know them all.

And what will your reaction after you blank on an easy question (because you can't know everything and you WILL miss easy questions) and your attending asks you: "And what cereal box are you getting your medical degree out of, Student Doctor Romani?"

For someone who's on the way up, it sure does seem like your knowledge of who I am as a person is on its way down. I have never, in my life, picked a fight with anyone who didn't attack me first, and I do have a fairly high threshold for what constitutes an attack. I don't start fights, but I will finish one that someone else starts with me. I demand respect from others because I'm a human just as they are. Everyone should be respected for that reason, from the chief of surgery all the way down to the janitor the hospital just hired two days ago... and the medical student.

Just could't avoid taking the bait, hmmm?

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

See, I'm totally cool with that. That's why I said "malicious" pimping... requesting that a student answer a relevant series of questions and then not belittling the student if he/she reaches the point of saying "I don't know" is fine. Surely, in medicine, a practicing doctor must be able to come up with, and answer, on his/her own, many such series of questions as part of the care of his/her patients. I'm the kind of guy who will look up the answer to a question I couldn't answer on my own, even if I'm not asked or required to do so. I don't like not knowing the answers, even though it's impossible to know them all.

And what will your reaction after you blank on an easy question (because you can't know everything and you WILL miss easy questions) and your attending asks you: "And what cereal box are you getting your medical degree out of, Student Doctor Romani?"

For someone who's on the way up, it sure does seem like your knowledge of who I am as a person is on its way down. I have never, in my life, picked a fight with anyone who didn't attack me first, and I do have a fairly high threshold for what constitutes an attack. I don't start fights, but I will finish one that someone else starts with me. I demand respect from others because I'm a human just as they are. Everyone should be respected for that reason, from the chief of surgery all the way down to the janitor the hospital just hired two days ago... and the medical student.

Just could't avoid taking the bait, hmmm?

“I’m a student, and I demand respect, although I’ve done nothing to earn it!”


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[IsleyOfTheNorth]

“I’m a student, and I demand respect, although I’ve done nothing to earn it!”

I find this to be a common symptom of low self-esteem in my experience. All humans deserve a basic, human respect, sure. But the janitor (likely) does not deserve the respect of having gone through 8+ years of higher education, pouring thousands of hours and dollars into learning their profession, and bearing the weight of being responsible whether someone lives or dies. Those people deserve MORE respect and for good reason.

You don't get respect by showing up. Showing up affords you the opportunity to EARN respect.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Wasn't this guy banned? Anyway,

If I have no excuse not to know it, I will know it. Period. If I don't know it, then by default I have an excuse, which for me is more like a "good reason", for not knowing it. I'd like to think that I will know everything important enough to determine whether someone lives or dies if there is no excuse not to know it.

Holy tautology Batman. I love how you've already created an excuse for hypothetical ignorance in the future.

sort of like how I carry my gun with me if I know I'm going into an unusually dangerous area or situation. (That does not mean that I'm itching to get into a shootout. It just means that I'm prepared to defend myself with the force necessary to neutralize the threat. Every time I carry, I hope that I don't have reason to pull the trigger.)

Why am I so not surprised you are an ammosexual. Listen, medschool isn't a setting where you get to Stand Your Ground.

This is one of the main reasons why I'm asking about schools that don't engage in this practice. I prefer not having to worry about it, just as I prefer being in places where I don't feel like it would be wise to carry my gun for personal protection.

Sounds like you're looking for a safe space to protect your delicate feelings.

I've often thought that I could be a good surgeon

Based on your online behavior you would be a terrible surgeon. All the (limited, online-only) indicators point to a self-righteous arrogance that will not take well to the rigid discipline of surgical training.

My wife had to have a surgery three years ago and the surgeon felt tired... said he'd prefer to do it in the morning the next day. Yet, the director of surgery insisted that it get done that night, and the surgeon didn't get to go home until after 11 PM. From my perspective, I was glad that my wife got taken care of sooner... but from the surgeon's perspective, it had to have been quite rough. Surgery is something that can never be rushed even if you want to get home.

This is bizarre if true, I can't think of too many practice settings in the US where the "director of surgery" can override an attending's decision making.

See, I'm totally cool with that. That's why I said "malicious" pimping

The problem is you're probably unable to distinguish normal with malignant.

I demand respect from others because I'm a human just as they are.

Focus less on demanding respect and more on earning it.

 

[whatbout2morrow]

In almost any career, you will have times where you will have to let things go in one ear and out the other. Medicine is no different. Existing faculty quit/retire and new faculty get hired. There is no guarantee that no faculty member/resident/other healthcare team member will never have a bad day and treat you poorly one odd off day. They are human too. Every school has policies against student mistreatment as required by the LCME. If a true pattern of student mistreatment is exhibited, it will be dealt with. At the very least, students will not be sent to work with said faculty member.

 

[username456789]

I’m thinking of trying out for the NFL. I played a bit in high school and was second-team all-league. Does anyone know of any pro teams that stick to two-hand touch during the regular season?

The Browns, maybe?

 

[Phile98]

I’m thinking of trying out for the NFL. I played a bit in high school and was second-team all-league. Does anyone know of any pro teams that stick to two-hand touch during the regular season?

The Browns, maybe?

My man out here asking the real questions. The Browns would be more than happy to have you as long as you don't punch teammates.

 

[NITRAS]

I for one, hope the OP goes to medical school and then posts on this thread about how his heart has been crushed by the cruel system.

Good luck, OP. There are few fields that tolerate extreme levels of arrogance. Medicine is no different. Respect is earned. The biggest problem right now is people thinking they deserve.....anything.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Darn I was really hoping this would actually be a thread about pimping so I could complain about my million year old attending grilling me on obscure ankle anatomy at 6am on a Sunday morning.

Oh well.

 

[RomaniGypsy]

First, let me say that I don't think RomaniGypsy is a troll. Second, I'm glad he's still posting because I find him so interesting.

RG: Medicine is not for you, at least for a long while. Here's why. (Please don't take any of this personally, because I don't mean it derogatorily.)

Your ego is as large as it is fragile. You're worried about pimping because you've crafted this image of yourself as some sort of above-it-all genius. If you have to admit that you're wrong about something, that all comes crashing down. It's also why you're hesitant to engage in formal programs/academics.

Not true. I'm not so much worried about malicious pimping as I am opposed to the idea. Again, I could handle it, but I would return fire. I have no trouble at all learning that I am wrong about something - it happens all the time. One does not gain knowledge without first learning that he/she lacks it.

As for hesitant to engage in formal programs or academics, I took a biology class last semester. I performed terribly in biology as a freshman in high school. But I figured I needed bio as a prerequisite for medical school, so I took it... and you know what... I aced it. I figured it was going to be an academic challenge the likes of which I'd never experienced before... and it wasn't easy, but I rocked it. Same with the two English classes - historically my worst subject. Got A's in both of them. I'm not saying this to brag, although the people standing by with their insult cannons won't believe that anyway. I'm saying it to attest to how I don't shy away from academic challenges.

I suspect you're smarter than the people you associate with, but not nearly as smart as you think you are.

The last time it was proven to me that I wasn't as smart as I thought I was, I became smarter as a result, and the person who did the proving was entirely civil and rational. (And 13 years my junior. Intelligence can be found anywhere.)

Your response to medicine will be: You'll decide against medicine. The real reason is a fear of failure. The reason you'll give when asked will probably be that the institution is fundamentally flawed - which is not untrue, making your excuse plausible.

I'll decide against medicine, but not because I fear failure. It's because I don't want to lose out on years with my family and get myself into a hugely stressful situation where I will come to feel that it "just isn't worth it" (like a doctor friend of mine recently told me).

Hahahaha you’re attitude is just proving everyone right and making what everyone has said about you more valid. With all your insults at everyone you’ve got some insecurity issues. If you can’t properly interact with others or grow a backbone then you’re in the wrong line of work. You need to adjust yourself quick.

You think I'm insulting people?

I challenge you to produce one insult that I have hurled at anyone, that comes close to matching the caliber of yours.

And what will your reaction after you blank on an easy question (because you can't know everything and you WILL miss easy questions) and your attending asks you: "And what cereal box are you getting your medical degree out of, Student Doctor Romani?"

"Now that's not necessary. I'm going to an accredited medical school and that's all that matters. I'll look up the answer to that question tonight and give you a detailed presentation on it tomorrow if you'd like."

Just could't avoid taking the bait, hmmm?

If you think I was being baited, why get on me for taking the bait when you said nothing about the person doing the baiting?

“I’m a student, and I demand respect, although I’ve done nothing to earn it!”

"I'm a human, and I demand respect for that simple reason."

I find this to be a common symptom of low self-esteem in my experience. All humans deserve a basic, human respect, sure. But the janitor (likely) does not deserve the respect of having gone through 8+ years of higher education, pouring thousands of hours and dollars into learning their profession, and bearing the weight of being responsible whether someone lives or dies. Those people deserve MORE respect and for good reason.

You don't get respect by showing up. Showing up affords you the opportunity to EARN respect.

My point was that part of that "basic, human respect" is not belittling people. Maybe that janitor couldn't handle medical education, for reasons over which he/she had no control. We must never see anyone else as beneath us.

Wasn't this guy banned? Anyway,

Why do you care? If you don't like what I'm posting, then just move on to the next thread.

Holy tautology Batman. I love how you've already created an excuse for hypothetical ignorance in the future.

The line given to me was that I had no excuse for not knowing it. Look at those words. No excuse. Therefore, why would I not know it? If there is no plausible reason for not knowing it, I will know it. That's not arrogance; it's Boolean logic.

Why am I so not surprised you are an ammosexual. Listen, medschool isn't a setting where you get to Stand Your Ground.

"Ammosexual"... interesting term. I'll have to remember that.

Sounds like you're looking for a safe space to protect your delicate feelings.

I'm looking for a place where human beings are given the aforementioned basic human respect.

Based on your online behavior you would be a terrible surgeon. All the (limited, online-only) indicators point to a self-righteous arrogance that will not take well to the rigid discipline of surgical training.

Not that it matters, because I wouldn't want to put in all of the years of training to become a surgeon. I'd be in my 50s by that point, and that doesn't leave me many years to practice.

The problem is you're probably unable to distinguish normal with malignant.

Said the pot to the kettle...

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Again, I could handle it, but I would return fire.

Yeah no you couldn’t handle it if that’s your response.

As for hesitant to engage in formal programs or academics, I took a biology class last semester. I performed terribly in biology as a freshman in high school. But I figured I needed bio as a prerequisite for medical school, so I took it... and you know what... I aced it. I figured it was going to be an academic challenge the likes of which I'd never experienced before... and it wasn't easy, but I rocked it. Same with the two English classes - historically my worst subject. Got A's in both of them. I'm not saying this to brag, although the people standing by with their insult cannons won't believe that anyway. I'm saying it to attest to how I don't shy away from academic challenges.

Homeboy I hate to break it to you but college English and Freshmen level Bio are far from being “academic challenges.”

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I'll join the food fight. I trained on the east coast. No lack of arrogance there. Best ways to deal with pimping?

1 Know the answer. You'll keep getting quizzed until you dont, but all will notice.
2. Say I dont know, another student will probably know. It will only sting for a second, then they will move on. DONT give an answer unless you are certain its correct. Many students may not know the answer, but are never in doubt about the answer they give. Dont do this! It will be red meat to the questioner. It is for me.
3. IM resident wants Cardio fellowship. Cardio attending is on teaching service and he wants to impress them...at your expense. He researched the question last night and will roll his eyes when you dont know, then save the day with a succinct bedside lecture. Best way to manage gunner resident is to have your own library of defensive trivia. When resident plays "I want to ask you a question", say " Sure....if I can ask you one" Gunner resident will not want to play in front of attending. It's a little risky, but gunners will leave you alone.

As for respect, show up early, stay late, ask how you can help, anticipate topics/cases and read ahead so you can hopefully know a few answers. Nobody likes an entitled student who wants to be spoon fed everything. My 2 cents with over 25 yrs in med ed.

 

[IsleyOfTheNorth]

Not true. I'm not so much worried about malicious pimping as I am opposed to the idea. Again, I could handle it, but I would return fire.

That's just it. By returning fire, you've failed the test. The test is, can you take the hit to your ego without retaliation - can you put your pride in the backseat for the good of the mission. The military does this same thing. "Why?" you may ask. Because it's a lot safer to see if you'll break while being yelled at for folding your socks incorrectly then when you're on the front lines with a rifle in your hands with your fellow soldiers relying on you. They want to know that you won't snap at patients and your associates when the pressure is on; that you won't drop the ball when a patient's life is in your hands. How to test that before someone's life hangs in the balance? Apply pressure.

As for hesitant to engage in formal programs or academics, I took a biology class last semester. I performed terribly in biology as a freshman in high school. But I figured I needed bio as a prerequisite for medical school, so I took it... and you know what... I aced it. I figured it was going to be an academic challenge the likes of which I'd never experienced before... and it wasn't easy, but I rocked it. Same with the two English classes - historically my worst subject. Got A's in both of them.

This sounds like a good experience for you, but know that lower-level biology classes are a cake-walk. You should breeze through those without difficulty. The same goes for any lower-level classes. For a lot of these, I aced them by just reading the book and only showing up for the tests - which is not that uncommon. I hope you continue, but be aware that it gets MUCH harder.

I'll decide against medicine, but not because I fear failure. It's because I don't want to lose out on years with my family and get myself into a hugely stressful situation where I will come to feel that it "just isn't worth it" (like a doctor friend of mine recently told me).

It's dangerous to go into something with a ready excuse. A lot of people "decide" not to pursue something they couldn't succeed at. There's nothing wrong with failure, but playing the "I could have, but I didn't want to" game to save ego is a serious character flaw in my opinion. I'm not saying that's you, but something to think about.

 

[siliso]

It wouldn’t be the school that does it, but individual preceptors. Also what is challenging your knowledge base to know what to teach you next and what is malicious pimping may well be a matter of perception.

 

[Goro]

Not true. I'm not so much worried about malicious pimping as I am opposed to the idea. Again, I could handle it, but I would return fire. I have no trouble at all learning that I am wrong about something - it happens all the time. One does not gain knowledge without first learning that he/she lacks it.

Keeping in character, you are still not getting it.

This type of behavior will have you fail a rotation, putting a big fat red flag on your record, or get you kicked out of med school. I can easily envision you fighting with your Student Professionalism Committee about why you thought it was a good idea to cop an attitude with an attending.

Unteachable students or residents (if they make it that far) are the ones who get kicked out of Medicine.

 

[elgaeCB]

Not true. I'm not so much worried about malicious pimping as I am opposed to the idea. Again, I could handle it, but I would return fire.

Ok i actually logged into my account after 5 years to post this. I'm speaking as someone who did med school on the east coast and is now currently in residency

OP, do not do this. DO NOT DO THIS FOR **** SAKE. You will fail the rotation or get a comment on your eval which will red flag your app to get tossed in the trash. If you try and fight this you will feel the full weight of the administration bury you as they will not be on your side for this. I guarantee you fighting an attending like this is a guaranteed way to obliterate your career before it even starts no matter which medical school you go to . No one will have your back on this

 

[RomaniGypsy]

Ok i actually logged into my account after 5 years to post this. I'm speaking as someone who did med school on the east coast and is now currently in residency

OP, do not do this. DO NOT DO THIS FOR **** SAKE. You will fail the rotation or get a comment on your eval which will red flag your app to get tossed in the trash. If you try and fight this you will feel the full weight of the administration bury you as they will not be on your side for this. I guarantee you fighting an attending like this is a guaranteed way to obliterate your career before it even starts no matter which medical school you go to . No one will have your back on this

Then I would wonder just what is the point of any of the committees or whatever that medical schools claim to have, to reduce or eliminate bullying in medical education. I would not "return fire" on the spot with a verbal crack if I knew that I could do so by reporting the bullying doctor to the school for disciplinary action or at least a removal from his spot as an instructor / preceptor on that rotation. Yet, if by reporting bullying I would be killing my own grades / career, what's the point of any kind of anti-bullying program at the medical school?

 

[Goro]

Then I would wonder just what is the point of any of the committees or whatever that medical schools claim to have, to reduce or eliminate bullying in medical education. I would not "return fire" on the spot with a verbal crack if I knew that I could do so by reporting the bullying doctor to the school for disciplinary action or at least a removal from his spot as an instructor / preceptor on that rotation. Yet, if by reporting bullying I would be killing my own grades / career, what's the point of any kind of anti-bullying program at the medical school?

Nowhere in this thread did anyone write that reporting bullying would ruin your grades or career. Re-read elage's post.

It's not bullying to ask you questions, even pointed ones.

It IS bullying to comment "what are you, a *****?" after not knowing some trivial anatomical fact.

And, in fact, you are obligated to report bullying. But too many students these days take any sort of pimping as bullying.

 

[RomaniGypsy]

Nowhere in this thread did anyone write that reporting bullying would ruin your grades or career. Re-read elage's post.

It's not bullying to ask you questions, even pointed ones.

It IS bullying to comment "what are you, a *****?" after not knowing some trivial anatomical fact.

And, in fact, you are obligated to report bullying. But too many students these days take any sort of pimping as bullying.

Well, I like to think that I would know the difference. I'm not afraid to take a chance on a question in class to which I'm not sure I know the answer, if nobody else is volunteering to answer it. If I get it wrong, oh well, I won't get it wrong again. I don't feel embarrassment when I simply answer a question incorrectly in front of the class, or if I have to say "I don't know". That stuff wouldn't bother me.

What would bother me is what you suggested - being called names for not knowing an answer, or something you suggested in an earlier post - being asked what cereal box I was getting my medical degree from. Those comments are totally unnecessary as they add nothing to the educational process and serve only to bully.

As for being obligated to report bullying... that's news to me, but I'm glad to know it. It seems to me, though, that it would be a difficult process. One would think that witnesses would be requested, to substantiate the original story. Those witnesses would have to be unafraid of backlash in the form of bad grades / "red flags" / etc., so there'd have to be protection for them. A fair system would give the accused doctor the opportunity to defend himself or otherwise state his case, and surely the doctor would know who reported him/her. That would leave the reporting student at risk of getting retaliatory bad grades / "red flags" / etc.

I'm curious as to how this reporting process works, so as to protect all reporting students and witnesses from retaliation.

 

[Goro]

Well, I like to think that I would know the difference. I'm not afraid to take a chance on a question in class to which I'm not sure I know the answer, if nobody else is volunteering to answer it. If I get it wrong, oh well, I won't get it wrong again. I don't feel embarrassment when I simply answer a question incorrectly in front of the class, or if I have to say "I don't know". That stuff wouldn't bother me.

What would bother me is what you suggested - being called names for not knowing an answer, or something you suggested in an earlier post - being asked what cereal box I was getting my medical degree from. Those comments are totally unnecessary as they add nothing to the educational process and serve only to bully.

As for being obligated to report bullying... that's news to me, but I'm glad to know it. It seems to me, though, that it would be a difficult process. One would think that witnesses would be requested, to substantiate the original story. Those witnesses would have to be unafraid of backlash in the form of bad grades / "red flags" / etc., so there'd have to be protection for them. A fair system would give the accused doctor the opportunity to defend himself or otherwise state his case, and surely the doctor would know who reported him/her. That would leave the reporting student at risk of getting retaliatory bad grades / "red flags" / etc.

I'm curious as to how this reporting process works, so as to protect all reporting students and witnesses from retaliation.

You complain to your clinical deans or the rotations director....don't know the exact terms for the latter.

But seriously, first, get into medical school before worrying about the clinic.

 

[RomaniGypsy]

You complain to your clinical deans or the rotations director....don't know the exact terms for the latter.

But seriously, first, get into medical school before worrying about the clinic.

I'm the kind of guy who does all of the worrying up front before pulling the trigger. The more that's at stake, the more I try to figure out in advance. Usually, when I do get everything figured out up front, I'm satisfied (or thrilled) with the eventual outcome. If I wouldn't like what I WILL find four years down the road, I won't want to take even that first step down that road. But if it's only what I MIGHT find four years down the road, that changes everything. For example, on here they talk about bullying happening regularly, but I recently read that only about 24% of medical students reported bullying at any point in their education. Naturally I would ask - does that mean that only 24% were bullied, or does it mean that only 24% reported the bullying? There are lots of variables to consider. It seems that one has to have a relatively hard heart in order to be able to tolerate bullying... I don't have that. I'm a softie... an empath, even. I'd have to know that I'd be relatively unlikely to be bullied as long as I were always real and putting forth obvious effort, and that there would be effective and relatively painless methods of redress if I did get bullied.

From my current vantage point, it seems as though medicine is not a good career choice for me, even though I'd be happy to do my part to alleviate the shortage of primary care physicians in rural underserved areas. Just because I can do something doesn't mean that I would enjoy it or all of its related conditions. Though enjoyment isn't everything, it has to be something. A doctor who doesn't like what he's doing is likely to cause an unusually large proportion of poor outcomes for his patients.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

From my current vantage point, it seems as though medicine is not a good career choice for me, even though I'd be happy to do my part to alleviate the shortage of primary care physicians in rural underserved areas. Just because I can do something doesn't mean that I would enjoy it or all of its related conditions. Though enjoyment isn't everything, it has to be something. A doctor who doesn't like what he's doing is likely to cause an unusually large proportion of poor outcomes for his patients.

Agree.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Med Ed]

From my current vantage point, it seems as though medicine is not a good career choice for me,

Yup.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

If you have to think about going to med school......don't go.

 

[IsleyOfTheNorth]

It seems that one has to have a relatively hard heart in order to be able to tolerate bullying... I don't have that. I'm a softie... an empath, even.

It does and it's wise to know that about yourself. Sometimes people ask me if they should consider the military and the answer is very dependent on who's asking. Medicine, I understand, is very similar - it's not for everyone and there's no shame in that.

 

[RomaniGypsy]

It does and it's wise to know that about yourself. Sometimes people ask me if they should consider the military and the answer is very dependent on who's asking. Medicine, I understand, is very similar - it's not for everyone and there's no shame in that.

Yeah... I've known for years that I couldn't do the military. I lived in a military town for five years and taught many soldiers, spouses of soldiers, children of soldiers... what I walked away with was the feeling that the most advanced officers (LTC, COL, et al) were generally stoic, even "hard" individuals. I often wondered how they were tenderhearted enough to fall in love. (I saw this in many more junior officers and enlisted soldiers, but it seemed to increase in frequency as a soldier advanced through the ranks.)

I knew a Major who was quite tenderhearted... he was told that he would not be promoted to LTC and should probably retire. (He did.) People who love the military tend to be the regimented and relatively stoic type... you pretty much have to be, if you're going to be sent out into the theater of war and be able to survive it without losing your sanity (or your life) in the process. Many soldiers get PTSD after deployment and I would be interested to know what their personalities were like prior to entering military service. My "armchair psychologist" guess is that they were the more tenderhearted type and probably never should've entered the military to begin with.

If medicine bears much similarity to the military, it wouldn't be my bag. Though I may receive some scornful chuckles from certain doctors for saying this, I think, from the information I have gathered and the interactions I've had with nurses, that advanced practice nursing might be more my thing... if I don't go into psychology. It's incredible how hard it is to decouple the two career possibilities, finding one that has substantially more "pros" than the other. Their basic characteristics are shockingly balanced if not always similar. Yet, at times I do wonder... as a nurse, advanced practice or otherwise, I'd still be in the medical field... would that career still bear distasteful similarity to the military? If yes, I'd be interested to figure out what military or military-related figures would be a personality analog to nurses. Haven't thought much about that.

 

[Goro]

From my current vantage point, it seems as though medicine is not a good career choice for me, even though I'd be happy to do my part to alleviate the shortage of primary care physicians in rural underserved areas. Just because I can do something doesn't mean that I would enjoy it or all of its related conditions. Though enjoyment isn't everything, it has to be something. A doctor who doesn't like what he's doing is likely to cause an unusually large proportion of poor outcomes for his patients.

Very astute decision.

 

[IsleyOfTheNorth]

...would that career still bear distasteful similarity to the military? If yes, I'd be interested to figure out what military or military-related figures would be a personality analog to nurses. Haven't thought much about that.

I would think so, but I'm not qualified to say. @RNtoMD87 might be able to shed some light.

 

[altblue]

Yeah... I've known for years that I couldn't do the military. I lived in a military town for five years and taught many soldiers, spouses of soldiers, children of soldiers... what I walked away with was the feeling that the most advanced officers (LTC, COL, et al) were generally stoic, even "hard" individuals. I often wondered how they were tenderhearted enough to fall in love. (I saw this in many more junior officers and enlisted soldiers, but it seemed to increase in frequency as a soldier advanced through the ranks.)

I knew a Major who was quite tenderhearted... he was told that he would not be promoted to LTC and should probably retire. (He did.) People who love the military tend to be the regimented and relatively stoic type... you pretty much have to be, if you're going to be sent out into the theater of war and be able to survive it without losing your sanity (or your life) in the process. Many soldiers get PTSD after deployment and I would be interested to know what their personalities were like prior to entering military service. My "armchair psychologist" guess is that they were the more tenderhearted type and probably never should've entered the military to begin with.

If medicine bears much similarity to the military, it wouldn't be my bag. Though I may receive some scornful chuckles from certain doctors for saying this, I think, from the information I have gathered and the interactions I've had with nurses, that advanced practice nursing might be more my thing... if I don't go into psychology. It's incredible how hard it is to decouple the two career possibilities, finding one that has substantially more "pros" than the other. Their basic characteristics are shockingly balanced if not always similar. Yet, at times I do wonder... as a nurse, advanced practice or otherwise, I'd still be in the medical field... would that career still bear distasteful similarity to the military? If yes, I'd be interested to figure out what military or military-related figures would be a personality analog to nurses. Haven't thought much about that.

As an NP, you'd have to get over the fact that you wouldn't be calling the shots on more complex cases, and undoubtedly you'd deal with a condescending physician on occasion, which you don't seem to like. PA's at the clinic I work at, who have a similar scope of practice to NP's, often don't have the background to effectively address difficult cases, though they can handle easier ones without issue. Psychology would involve even more challenging interactions than some aggressive pimping.

If you are still interested in med school, your ego is something you will likely have to get over. I think I could do well in med school, but I know I won't be top dog there. It attracts all sorts of intelligent and career-driven people, and if you can't accept a little bit of embarrassment on rounds while competing with them, you'd be in for a rough time.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Nowhere in this thread did anyone write that reporting bullying would ruin your grades or career. Re-read elage's post.

It's not bullying to ask you questions, even pointed ones.

It IS bullying to comment "what are you, a *****?" after not knowing some trivial anatomical fact.

And, in fact, you are obligated to report bullying. But too many students these days take any sort of pimping as bullying.

Wait, THIS is considered bullying?!
Hah. And people find this intimidating?

 

[RNtoMD87]

@RomaniGypsy

Medical school sounds nothing like my military experience

-In the military you were discouraged from thinking. We referred to our helmets as “thought protectors”, (to keep thoughts inside our heads)

If “Did you get your license out of a cereal box?” offends you, you probably need to check your intestinal fortitude. Because I’d think you’re a five letter synonym for wussy that starts with a P.

-if you think being called a ***** is malicious bullying, in the army we were all called “faggots”, by our leadership, and for one example, an NCO asked a squadmate of mine “why are you sweating so GODDAMN much priiiivate?!” “I don’t know sarge...” “well I know...do you want to know..? You’re fat as S^*% and a f*^%ing disgrace! But we’re going to fix that. SHOW ME FAR (run away), SHOW ME NEAR! (Come back), FRONT, BACK, GO”

Did we whine?! No. And I’m thankful. This stress made me work much better in stressful situations, and thats the POINT. They knew in combat we would be yelling and cussing at each other, and wanted us to be able to handle the rigor.


Outside of the medical corps you wouldn’t find anyone in the military “soft and tender hearted” like you would in the medical profession.

When I was in Taji we set up the largest TIFRC in Iraq. (Theatre internment facility reconciliation center), we HATED the airmen doctors and nurses assigned with us. We hated them because these officers would ask these mujs who had just got done shooting at us weeks prior, “what have you been doing to gain weight?! It’s working! Good job Mr. Mohammed! Hey Spc M, HE GAINED 5 pounds this month!”

“Oh yeah?! I don’t give a %^*! I should’ve killed the goat f*^%er when I had a chance!” was my gunner’s response. Our guys got written up by these officers time and time again for “bullying” the enemy. There was a very clear rift between us.

I didn’t begin to understand why these medical personnel behaved the way they did until I was in nursing school. Also, in the situation it was hard to understand that they had not experienced the same things we had. It took me years to take a step back and understand it.

Here’s some pictorals I found in an old album. I guarantee you they weren’t whispering sweet nothings into our ears.

 

[Med Ed]

Wait, THIS is considered bullying?!
Hah. And people find this intimidating?

In the context of military training, no. In the context of clinical teaching in professional school, yes (although when it does come to attention in professional school, it's usually a longstanding pattern of saying things considerably worse than "What are you, a *****?").

 

[RNtoMD87]

Sounds like these schools need a safe space. Patients lives are in our hands, but people are worried about their precious feewlings.


I really hope it isn’t as bad as it comes off as far as sensitivity.



And I’ve had attending surgeons say worse to me and my colleagues. We didn’t cry about it, if it seemed like bulls*^t after they left the nurses just say things like “Oh that’s Dr. so and so. You know how he is. F him.” (Because it is usually a certain doctor. I usually tell them “but did you die tho?”) But I like him, because he’s no bulls*^t, gets things done, is extremely knowledgable. He has high standards for himself, and therefore high standards for those around him. I can relate and I admire him.

Sometimes he does climb on us for things out of our control, but eh, it’s life.

I draw the line at physical assault or threat of physical assault. When that happens, all bets are off. But up until that I just “play the game”. And I’ve never seen either of those happen of heard of them happening.

 

[Med Ed]

Sounds like these schools need a safe space. Patients lives are in our hands, but people are worried about their precious feewlings.

Not at all, it's simply that being verbally abusive in medical education does not accomplish anything positive.

And I’ve had attending surgeons say worse to me and my colleagues. We didn’t cry about it, if it seemed like bulls*^t after they left the nurses just say things like “Oh that’s Dr. so and so. You know how he is. F him.” (Because it is usually a certain doctor. I usually tell them “but did you die tho?”) But I like him, because he’s no bulls*^t, gets things done, is extremely knowledgable. He has high standards for himself, and therefore high standards for those around him. I can relate and I admire him.

I have news for you: this person is an a-hole. Admire him if you like, I will admire the person who is knowledgable, accomplished, and doesn't consider treating others with a modicum of respect to be a chore.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Not at all, it's simply that being verbally abusive in medical education does not accomplish anything positive.



I have news for you: this person is an a-hole. Admire him if you like, I will admire the person who is knowledgable, accomplished, and doesn't consider treating others with a modicum of respect to be a chore.

But that’s the thing, he IS knowledgeable. No one would respect him if he wasn’t. He is probably the best pulmonologist in this part of the state. Being nice doesn’t save lives. Dedication to duty does. And usually, the nurses or other professionals he yells at have it coming. Like I said, at times he is wrong, but I still respect him. I’ve seen him manage 3 codes on SICU at the same time.


Most pulmonologists I’ve met have been pretty big on teaching if you catch them at the right time. My favorite one I worked with first at another facility. I’ve seen him chew ass too but he isn’t nearly as aggressive as the last one. He runs codes so calmly. When I was a brand new nurse he told me “alright tape down the OG tube” so I stepped up trying to be active and said “uhh where do I tape it to ?” And he goes “His forehead smart ass! Just tape it down!” with a grin. When he realized I was serious he said “oh is this the first time you’ve done this?” And showed me what to do, how to tape it to the ET tube.

It takes a balance. If the person is trying then I tend to be warm and teach them, but with people like old Mr. “I’m indifferent” on the other thread, I will chew them up one side and down the other in private. Either they’ll shape up, or find a different job. There’s a difference in reasonably not knowing, and not giving a s*^t.

That being said, as a nurse preceptor I’ve never had a preceptee that deserved an ass chewing. I don’t think most of the people who would need one on this forum truly make it into a medical career. But when I get my ass chewed for not knowing something, it’s a strong motivator to know it after that. I tend to remember things when they’re beat into me, lol.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Not at all, it's simply that being verbally abusive in medical education does not accomplish anything positive. I have news for you: this person is an a-hole. Admire him if you like, I will admire the person who is knowledgeable, accomplished, and doesn't consider treating others with a modicum of respect to be a chore.

This is very true. Torture does not serve as an effective teaching method either. During most of my clinical rotations, things went fairly smoothly. Some attendings and residents asked more questions than others, but for most part, I found them to be respectful (even when I was on OBGYN and general surgery). Nevertheless, I got the surprise of a lifetime. I was doing the second half of a 12-week family medicine rotation. The first half was at a great site, and every single resident and attending up to the program director were fantastic people. But the second half was an inpatient rotation. The attending I was with was seriously one of the most horrible vile human beings I have ever had the misfortune of standing beside her. She would attack my character on a daily basis, and say the most awful things you can imagine. Every single day she did not let up. She told me how the two other residents on that rotation were miles ahead of me. She told me how I would never become a good physician. She also told me how I had no people skills (despite this always having been one of my best markings from medical school rotations through rotations now as a resident). After developing insomnia and other unfortunate effects from the rotation, I managed to finish. At the end, she gave me an evaluation with scathing comments, but amazingly a 70% passing score. Now lucky for me, the school would average resident evaluations along with attending evaluations. I asked one of the senior residents on Facebook if I could get an evaluation from him. I went to the hospital dressed in a hoodie in case I ran into her, but didn't. He gave me a straight 100% and some nice comments, so that half of the rotation came out to 85%. Combined with my good first half, I got a B+ after the shelf. It was a good relief. Pardon my French, but she was just a $h1tty excuse for a human being.

When it was time to write evaluations, I was given the ultimate gift. To write any concerns about a preceptor without a character limit in place. If you have read any of longer works, you can only imagine what I wrote. Oh boy did I let loose completely. 😉

I think the most important lesson I learned from this is simple... Always follow the Golden Rule. If you were treated horribly and grew up with things you hated, then try to make things better for others. The mistreatment started when I was a pre-med volunteer in the hospital, and continued up the chain. I have vowed to never be like this. No matter who the person is, they deserve to be treated with respect. I will make sure that I never turn into these monsters you hear about. I will make sure I never become part of the reason why someone decided that committing suicide was a better solution than going on in the training process. I hope all of you will try to make things better, and not continue a cycle of hatred and torture. It's so ironic that medicine is supposed to be a group of people who are trying to heal others, but instead, so many work to destroy those around and below them. Medical education needs to change its course, and move away from that mindset.

In the end though, I learned to do pretty good progress notes and realized more about myself and how I want to treat others. If I ever see her again, I would probably say something along the lines of this surprisingly deep and profound piece from South Park:

 

[Med Ed]

But that’s the thing, he IS knowledgeable. No one would respect him if he wasn’t. He is probably the best pulmonologist in this part of the state. Being nice doesn’t save lives. Dedication to duty does. And usually, the nurses or other professionals he yells at have it coming. Like I said, at times he is wrong, but I still respect him. I’ve seen him manage 3 codes on SICU at the same time.

You have constructed a false choice here. It's true that being nice, in and of itself, does not save lives. But neither does being a dick, and dedication to duty does not preclude professional interaction with colleagues and subordinates.