MD status but chose to go DO?

[JB50]

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[MADD!!!]

Use search thread plzz.

 

[JB50]

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[OrdinaryDO]

You are not going to reach a concensus on SDN. I would be willing to bet that your geographical preferences will play a large role in the DO vs MD bias. I don't mean the geographical preference for the student, I mean for those health professionals, hospitals, and everyday patients and where THEY are located. For example, if I lived in California and wanted to practice somewhere in California or very close to it, then I would definitely pick an MD school over a DO school because of how much of a biased it placed against osteopathic physicians in that area. California tried to make it Illegal for osteopathic physicians to practice with the same autonomy as MDs and they eventually got a law passed that forced the DOs in California to take a short class and get their degree changed to an MD in order to practice medicine in their state. UC Irvine (if I'm not mistaken) used to be an osteopathic medical school, then when this law was passed it was transformed into UC Irvine school so medicine. All of this happened in 1962.

Now, the only reason I even mentioned this is because if you look at other states like Oklahoma or maybe even Missouri, they are incredibly DO friends. In Tulsa, DOs are well liked and generally rotate through major hospitals as well as gain residency positions in high yield level 1-2 trauma enters and large hospotals in general. But, you have to look at why this is so. Northeastern OK and Missouri/Kansas have all had MANY years of graduates come and go through their respective DO schools. This allowed for time and experience to work in their favor when laying the groundwork for all of us future physicians trying to pave a path into medicne.

Many states ARE DO friendly, but many places are not. Usually because the people are not very well informed on the practices and rights of osteopathic physicians, or maybe they just don't like change. I, for one, would have very quickly dropped my acceptance for my state MD school for the acceptance I have now at my DO school. It is all up to you, but the vast majority of SDN users will call you dumb if you don't choose MD over DO!

 

[studentdocftw]

I would have attended my state MD had I got in. I have 2 old scores of 28s which I regrettably rushed to take...my final application ended up being 514/3.7, which I think is "MD worthy", but after 2 cycles, I've called it a day and will likely matriculate to a DO school. Am I disappointed? Surely. Is the sky falling and is my life over? LOL. I'm going to medical school and will become a doctor, I understand it could be significantly worse. I do understand that some doors may close by making this decision, and I will have to work twice as hard to obtain a highly sought out residency (obviously just a guesstimate), but I've looked into fields that are open to DOs, and they just happen to be the ones I am most interested in. Good luck!

Update: I am headed towards a state MD. In summation, I had no hesitancy towards going DO, but my state MD is undoubtedly a better choice for me.

 

[Dustbowl12]

You want to go to medical school? Do you want to be a physician? Dear god. Apply DO.

 

[Goro]

Every year I see more of my students who have turned down an MD school for ours. The biggest reason is geographical as mentioned above. We're lucky to get a decent number of applicants from the good CA schools who would rather stay on this side of the continent. I suspect that this is why Touro CA and Western have such decent stats; better than some MD schools for the former.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

I would have attended my state MD had I got in. I have 2 old scores of 28s which I regrettably rushed to take...my final application ended up being 514/3.7, which I think is "MD worthy", but after 2 cycles, I've called it a day and will likely matriculate to a DO school. Am I disappointed? Surely. Is the sky falling and is my life over? LOL. I'm going to medical school and will become a doctor, I understand it could be significantly worse. I do understand that some doors may close by making this decision, and I will have to work twice as hard to obtain a highly sought out residency (obviously just a guesstimate), but I've looked into fields that are open to DOs, and they just happen to be the ones I am most interested in. Good luck!

I see it like this...MD may be an advantage, but being a DO doesn't render you at a disadvantage.youll get what you get. Just do the best you can and score a good residency.

 

[wxman393]

Every year I see more of my students who have turned down an MD school for ours. The biggest reason is geographical as mentioned above. We're lucky to get a decent number of applicants from the good CA schools who would rather stay on this side of the continent. I suspect that this is why Touro CA and Western have such decent stats; better than some MD schools for the former.

Geographical here. Chose DO over MD (in-state and OOS) because of the proximity of the school to my family and the credentials of the faculty. My spouse is also military so didn't have many options to move.

Edit: spelling


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[deleted407021]

Friend of mine turned down a few MD acceptances and other DO programs for my school. Geographic location and the people were deciding factors I believe.

 

[makennacompton]

California tried to make it Illegal for osteopathic physicians to practice with the same autonomy as MDs and they eventually got a law passed that forced the DOs in California to take a short class and get their degree changed to an MD in order to practice medicine in their state.

I don't think this is true. I have been treated at a family practice in California and the doctor's card and name on the door clearly states "XXX Jones, DO"

 

[Goro]

This was back in the 1960s. The whole story is fascinating and among other things, it led to the creation of UCI as an MD school. One has to admire the CMA for their ruthlessness.

I don't think this is true. I have been treated at a family practice in California and the doctor's card and name on the door clearly states "XXX Jones, DO"

 

[hallowmann]

...California tried to make it Illegal for osteopathic physicians to practice with the same autonomy as MDs and they eventually got a law passed that forced the DOs in California to take a short class and get their degree changed to an MD in order to practice medicine in their state. UC Irvine (if I'm not mistaken) used to be an osteopathic medical school, then when this law was passed it was transformed into UC Irvine school so medicine. All of this happened in 1962...

This is not an entirely accurate portrayal of history. First off, it wasn't the state of CA, but rather the CA osteopathic and allopathic medical associations that spearheaded this movement to consolidate the degrees. At that time in CA, MDs worked in MD hospitals and DOs worked at DO hospitals and it was very difficult to crossover. Across the country many, but not all, states recognized the DO degree at the time (they all did by the end of the 70s).

The CA osteopathic association came to an agreement with the CA MD association where they would eliminate the DO degree in CA, convert everyone with a DO to a md (about 85% opted in to do this) with a single workshop and $65 fee, and all CA osteopathic residencies (constituting half of all US DO residencies at the time) and one of the oldest DO schools (in fact it was the only med school in CA between 1918 and 1928) would be converted into MD residencies and a MD school overnight. It was a move that the head of the CA DO association expected would be heralded across the US, and all other state osteopathic associations would follow suit.

Unfortunately, the former DOs were never really treated the same as MDs, and worse yet with the passing of laws that only recognized the MD degree, while the majority in CA took the deal, the 15% of DOs in CA that didn't along with all other DOs in the rest of the country couldn't practice in CA. Apparently the CA DO association didn't realize that a lot of people liked their DO degree and had fought for decades for recognition in the majority of other states.

In any case, years later all of that was overturned, but the loss of residencies and the California school were major blows. The funny thing was the fact that DOs could switch their degrees and their school could convert overnight to an MD school (to the point where even current students one year graduated with a DO and the next with an MD), was actually used in legal arguments to demonstrate that MDs and DOs are equivalent and should have equal practicing rights.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

This is not an entirely accurate portrayal of history. First off, it wasn't the state of CA, but rather the CA osteopathic and allopathic medical associations that spearheaded this movement to consolidate the degrees. At that time in CA, MDs worked in MD hospitals and DOs worked at DO hospitals and it was very difficult to crossover. Across the country many, but not all, states recognized the DO degree at the time (they all did by the end of the 70s).

The CA osteopathic association came to an agreement with the CA MD association where they would eliminate the DO degree in CA, convert everyone with a DO to a md (about 85% opted in to do this) with a single workshop and $65 fee, and all CA osteopathic residencies (constituting half of all US DO residencies at the time) and one of the oldest DO schools (in fact it was the only med school in CA between 1918 and 1928) would be converted into MD residencies and a MD school overnight. It was a move that the head of the CA DO association expected would be heralded across the US, and all other state osteopathic associations would follow suit.

Unfortunately, the former DOs were never really treated the same as MDs, and worse yet with the passing of laws that only recognized the MD degree, while the majority in CA took the deal, the 15% of DOs in CA that didn't along with all other DOs in the rest of the country couldn't practice in CA. Apparently the CA DO association didn't realize that a lot of people liked their DO degree and had fought for decades for recognition in the majority of other states.

In any case, years later all of that was overturned, but the loss of residencies and the California school were major blows. The funny thing was the fact that DOs could switch their degrees and their school could convert overnight to an MD school (to the point where even current students one year graduated with a DO and the next with an MD), was actually used in legal arguments to demonstrate that MDs and DOs are equivalent and should have equal practicing rights.

While I do thank you for sharing your knowledge, my point was not to give a history lesson, it was just to give an idea of how things used to be in the state of California. Everything I said was accurate, I just didn't think someone would care if I said "CA osteopathic association" since the point of the post was to present an attitude, not the entire history. However, you could have posted the wiki link, it says everything you just said word for word, basically.


Edit: also, just while we are on the topic. It was the AMA that spearheaded the movement and tried to force this upon the DO society. However, the AMA tried to discredit other organizations, especially the chiropractic association..aka the "quack" campaign.

 

[hallowmann]

While I do thank you for sharing your knowledge, my point was not to give a history lesson, it was just to give an idea of how things used to be in the state of California. Everything I said was accurate, I just didn't think someone would care if I said "CA osteopathic association" since the point of the post was to present an attitude, not the entire history. However, you could have posted the wiki link, it says everything you just said word for word, basically.


Edit: also, just while we are on the topic. It was the AMA that spearheaded the movement and tried to force this upon the DO society. However, the AMA tried to discredit other organizations, especially the chiropractic association..aka the "quack" campaign.

My point was that, no it wasn't the state itself nor purely an "MD conspiracy" that caused what happened in the 60s like you allude to, but rather a joint effort between the CA osteopathic and medical associations at the time. You apparently missed that point.

 

[Mad Jack]

Go MD dude. Take it from a guy who's been there, go MD. I closed some doors I much would rather have not by going the DO route.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

My point was that, no it wasn't the state itself nor purely an "MD conspiracy" that caused what happened in the 60s like you allude to, but rather a joint effort between the CA osteopathic and medical associations at the time. You apparently missed that point.

You are reading into something that is not there. I said in my post that the only reason I mentioned that bit of history was to prove that some states are DO friendly and some have a history of being not so accepting. My post was not meant to share all the historical facts or name the all of the counterparts involved, I wrote about it to present the fact that there is history of ill will against osteopathic physicians in some states. I was not alluding to any kind of conspiracy, nor was I blaming the state itself, but merely WHERE it happened. I speak in generalized terms until someone comes along picking apart every word of what I said. My example between the differences of California and Oklahoma are very true even today. California still have an incredibly unfriendly bias for DOs as presented by many of the residents and students who post about it on SDN often. Oklahoma has had a state funded DO program for nearly 40 years, and it is located near the first DO school opened by A.T. Still. All of this leads to a positive history and strong presence of osteopathic physicians in a community which allows for a more welcoming public scene.

I'm sorry if my post wasn't geared to your standards, but everyone else knew what I meant by it so I thought it wa/ okay. There are no conspiracies or alluding to such things. Just facts and opinions from the general public.

Edit: I don't wanna argue about something this silly. It is a matter of perception and opinion on both parts. Here is the actual story for anyone who wants the bold hard facts from the source itself. http://www.lib.uci.edu/sites/themerger/new-beginnings-for-dos.html

 

[hallowmann]

Again, you don't seem to get what I was saying.

This is what you posted: "California tried to make it Illegal for osteopathic physicians to practice with the same autonomy as MDs and they eventually got a law passed that forced the DOs in California to take a short class and get their degree changed to an MD in order to practice medicine in their state."

This is the statement I was disagreeing with, which is why I only quoted that statement to clarify for those unfamiliar with the actual history.

My post had nothing to do with the lower perception of DOs out west. If anything I agree that the consequences of what happened in CA in the 60s were major blows, and shapes the perception of DOs to some degree even now. Again, it was to clarify the history only. You alone chose to interpret it as an evaluation of your entire post and primary point in that post.

In your post you say that the reason DOs switched to md and lost practice rights was because "California tried to make it illegal" and "forced the DOs" in CA. Now as I said, that statement is not entirely accurate, because it completely ignores the fact that it wasn't CA as a whole disrespecting DOs and taking away their rights, but rather that both the CA DO and MD associations at the time seeked to combine in all aspects in CA. You can look up the writings of the head of the CA DO association at the time. She makes it pretty clear that they were pushing for the legislation and movement because the association believed it was the way of the future and DOs had more similarities with MDs than differences.

It's the reason the OPSC even came into existence. It was made up of a small group of members of the main CA DO association that opposed the merger. They separated and created their own association. The link you posted is pretty clearly the history from their perspective. I'm sure if you ask the other 85% of DOs that opted in, they might have a different memory of what happened. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle.