MD vs DO

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Yikes. People are incredibly offended by me weighing my options. I know the traditional thought is MD >>> DO, I'm not a "naive" premed. I just wanted some truthful discussion on this. If my thought to even consider Marian is so bad, then I get the picture. All I wanted was an unbiased discussion. Why is everyone getting so aggressive? Last I checked, this is an online forum. Just chill people.

Difference = Marian has a lot of potential, I wanted to potentially be a part of making it as good as it could. That's all. In the end, I'll be a doctor regardless.
 
I would choose DO if I were you, especially since it's MUCOM. I had very good stats myself, and halfway along the interview trail decided that I like the DO culture so much more than MD. With the coming merger, people will soon likely stop comparing the two so much. In twenty or so years it may not even be a conversation topic anymore. It's your call, but I personally would take Marian.
 
sandstorm223 said:
I would choose DO if I were you, especially since it's MUCOM. I had very good stats myself, and halfway along the interview trail decided that I like the DO culture so much more than MD. With the coming merger, people will soon likely stop comparing the two so much. In twenty or so years it may not even be a conversation topic anymore. It's your call, but I personally would take Marian.
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Thank you for a considerate opinion without being aggressive.
 
PS I appreciate the constructive feedback. I realize the safe bet is MD. But I want to consider all factors before deciding.... because why not? I've worked very hard to get the acceptances and want to consider everything.
 
I think you will have better access to prestigious residencies and competitive specialities as MD. Marian is also a newer school, and I assume they are going to be working out kinks for the next two years. IU is an established MD school.

I would go with IU based on the future opportunities it will provide for you, as well as being an established school.
 
tinkertown1919 said:
I think you will have better access to prestigious residencies and competitive specialities as MD. Marian is also a newer school, and I assume they are going to be working out kinks for the next two years. IU is an established MD school.

I would go with IU based on the future opportunities it will provide for you, as well as being an established school.
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Thank you.
 
I would (and probably will) be taking IUSM for their new curriculum. 18 months preclinical, block schedule, systems based. Marian also has an innovative curriculum, but IUSM has amazing programs and research, global health opportunities.
 
Keep in mind, these aggressive personalities will likely be more prevalent at IU than Marian. DOs tend to be more humble and less aggressive in general. No diss to the MDs, just an observation that deserves some merit.
 
Here's something constructive: there is real concern about the future of the DO degree given than DO schools are popping up, which will dilute the job market for DOs just like it is for law school. Don't underestimate the safety of MD. Your ultimate goal is to be a physician right? Not to "make an impact on your med school."

Do you want to have a degree recognized in every country? Do you want to have academic medicine and research opportunities? Do you want all the specialities in striking distance to practice? Do you want not be limited regionally for residency? Do you want an established and superior clinical training? Do you want to live the rest of your life not regretting getting that MD? If yes, go MD.
 
sandstorm223 said:
Keep in mind, these aggressive personalities will likely be more prevalent at IU than Marian. DOs tend to be more humble and less aggressive in general. No diss to the MDs, just an observation that deserves some merit.
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Your statement deserves no merit whatsoever. I'm sure you are a credible source to come to in order to judge the characters of all MD students. DOs are more humble? Seriously, even if this statement was made of 0.1% truth, you might think about the fact that a DO student has absolutely nothing to brag about when it comes to their education to an MD.
 
Dr.Smexy said:
Your statement deserves no merit whatsoever. I'm sure you are a credible source to come to in order to judge the characters of all MD students. DOs are more humble? Seriously, even if this statement was made of 0.1% truth, you might think about the fact that a DO student has absolutely nothing to brag about when it comes to their education to an MD.
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Wow. Sorry if I touched a nerve.
 
sandstorm223 said:
Wow. Sorry if I touched a nerve.
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Sorry, he forgot that he's not allowed to challenge your statement without being labeled as being overly emotional. Hey guys get the memo, you aren't allowed to criticize @sandstorm223, all his generalizations about MD students should be taken as factual and merit no sort of challenge! If you disagree with him obviously you are overly aggressive and butt hurt!
 
sandstorm223 said:
Keep in mind, these aggressive personalities will likely be more prevalent at IU than Marian. DOs tend to be more humble and less aggressive in general. No diss to the MDs, just an observation that deserves some merit.
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piii said:
Sorry, he forgot that he's not allowed to challenge your statement without being labeled as being overly emotional. Hey guys get the memo, you aren't allowed to criticize @sandstorm223, all his generalizations about MD students should be taken as factual and merit no sort of challenge! If you disagree with him obviously you are overly aggressive and butt hurt!
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Using sandstorm's argument

VWr6I.gif
 
sandstorm223 said:
Keep in mind, these aggressive personalities will likely be more prevalent at IU than Marian. DOs tend to be more humble and less aggressive in general. No diss to the MDs, just an observation that deserves some merit.
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So the 99% of these people (some of whom are DO students) are "aggressive" personalities? We are trying to encourage and advise them to take the path of Least resistance and have a multitude of resources not available at DO programs.

And if you use the "but this DO went to Hopkins for residency" I can guarantee I can immediately show the flaws in that thinking
Even the lowest tier MD schools (with applicants who get accepted with stats around the same as many DO applicants) land mid and top tier residencies that are locked out to the tippy top of the Non existent DO tiers.

And for what the sake of saying "well I want to do just primary care" I ask, how do you know that? You make your specialty decision third year and as a DO student you won't even be able to see the "future you" as a resident since you'll spend your IM block shadowing a doc at a community hospital. Being a academic tertiary hospital lets you see every training team in a multitude of specialties.
 
AlteredScale said:
So the 99% of these people (some of whom are DO students) are "aggressive" personalities? We are trying to encourage and advise them to take the path of Least resistance and have a multitude of resources not available at DO programs.

And if you use the "but this DO went to Hopkins for residency" I can guarantee I can immediately show the flaws in that thinking
Even the lowest tier MD schools (with applicants who get accepted with stats around the same as many DO applicants) land mid and top tier residencies that are locked out to the tippy top of the Non existent DO tiers.

And for what the sake of saying "well I want to do just primary care" I ask, how do you know that? You make your specialty decision third year and as a DO student you won't even be able to see the "future you" as a resident since you'll spend your IM block shadowing a doc at a community hospital. Being a academic tertiary hospital lets you see every training team in a multitude of specialties.
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Agreed.

I met a visiting DO student doing their sub-I, the student was really great, all the attendings and residents praised them even behind their back....they were told they wouldn't even get an interview at the program (pretty customary for visiting 4th year students to at least get a courtesy interview). All the residents are MDs and there has never been a DO. And this is not in a competitive specialty either, just a very good program in a location this student wanted to be in.

Ultimately you'll be a doctor no matter which one you choose, but there is still a very real bias. Unfortunately many applicants don't understand this and don't realize it until they're actually in it, having to set up their own 3rd year rotations (I still don't understand these schools) or just shadowing in clinical years or being locked out of certain locations or specialties for residency because the programs don't take DOs.

It's pretty short sighted and unfair to label MDs as more aggressive and DOs as more humble. I've met and worked with a lot of DO students who were excellent and would fit in perfectly with the personalities in my class. But hearing their stories about the issues they have with their schools (as said above, having to set up their own rotations, just shadowing, etc) detracts a lot from their education and would be a nightmare if you are a "passive" person and not actively fighting for what's in your best interest.

And I don't see this all going away with the merger, either. I think the playing ground is slowly leveling, but it's definitely not there all the way yet.

If you have an MD acceptance, take it. It sucks that there's still such a divide, but don't be in denial about it and don't think it will change overnight.
 
raiderette said:
I would (and probably will) be taking IUSM for their new curriculum. 18 months preclinical, block schedule, systems based. Marian also has an innovative curriculum, but IUSM has amazing programs and research, global health opportunities.
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Have you been able to find anywhere that has a comprehensive look into their (IUSM) new curriculum? I can't seem to find an exact file of what it is will be done.
 
AlteredScale said:
So the 99% of these people (some of whom are DO students) are "aggressive" personalities? We are trying to encourage and advise them to take the path of Least resistance and have a multitude of resources not available at DO programs.

And if you use the "but this DO went to Hopkins for residency" I can guarantee I can immediately show the flaws in that thinking
Even the lowest tier MD schools (with applicants who get accepted with stats around the same as many DO applicants) land mid and top tier residencies that are locked out to the tippy top of the Non existent DO tiers.

And for what the sake of saying "well I want to do just primary care" I ask, how do you know that? You make your specialty decision third year and as a DO student you won't even be able to see the "future you" as a resident since you'll spend your IM block shadowing a doc at a community hospital. Being a academic tertiary hospital lets you see every training team in a multitude of specialties.
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That's a good point
 
I guess I always knew there were some negative vibes towards DO's as they are a *newer* field, but it looks like a few of you are alluding to actual disrespect in the medical field for being a DO (whether that disrespect is not considering them for residencies or simply trash talking them).
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
"Unbiased" opinions = "telling me what I want to hear"

You've already got quite a few current DO students and a DO adcom advising you to go to IU.



No they don't, and no it doesn't.
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What do you mean what I want to hear? I'm happy to hear everyone's opinion here about the matter. I'm not fishing for anything in particular.
 
sacholiver said:
I guess I always knew there were some negative vibes towards DO's as they are a *newer* field, but it looks like a few of you are alluding to actual disrespect in the medical field for being a DO (whether that disrespect is not considering them for residencies or simply trash talking them).
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I dont think disqualifying DOs for certain residencies is disrespect. DOs as an entity have placed it upon themselves to have this bias because of very variable clinical training, lack of mentorship through clinical dept (you wont even find a surgical dept at most DO schools), lack of impacting research opps (outside of OMM research to let you present at your school research day or publish in the famed JAOA). These are things that any MD school would have and I can bet its a standard thing to see from an applicant by a program director. Its not the letters after the name but moreso what you get at the school that provides the letters (and thats pushing it, sime just think having a DO in the program lowers the prestige).

These are things that can/could be changed if the DO accred body COCA would downsize maximum class size and upsize the minimum facutly required to be on the inst. But instead we have new schools with horrendous names (NYIT-Arkansas) opening classes of 150 with "state of the art" anatomy and OMM labs as well as "amazing" sp exam rooms (to make up for the fact that you cant actually get real hospital patient exposure since youre in the middle of nowhere).

As a DO student this is something that needs to spoken of or else nothing will ever change because of the old guard dog AOA guarding the "distinction" of osteo medicine. I put absolute minimal effort to the bone magic course.
 
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AlteredScale said:
I dont think disqualifying DOs for certain residencies is disrespect. DOs as an entity have placed it upon themselves to have this bias because of very variable clinical training, lack of mentorship through clinical dept (you wont even find a surgical dept at most DO schools), lack of impacting research opps (outside of OMM research to let you present at your school research day or pubplish in thw high IF JAOA).

These are things that can/could be changed if the DO accred body COCA would downsize maximum class size and upsize the minimum facutly required to be on the inst. But instead we have new schools with horrendous names (NYIT-Arkansas) opening classes of 150 with "state of the art" anatomy and OMM labs as well as "amazing" sp exam rooms (to make up for the fact that you cant actually get real hospital patient exposure since youre in the middle of nowhere).
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Just out of curiosity, are you the DO Adcom someone mentioned was lurking here?
 
The strong sentiment favoring MD is almost irrational. If MD is so important then why not just go to Caribbean schools? The answer I guess is something like: It's not THAT important.
 
Dr. Adam said:
The strong sentiment favoring MD is almost irrational. If MD is so important then why not just go to Caribbean schools? The answer I guess is something like: It's not THAT important.
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@Mavs88 beat me to it. The distinction goes beyond the actual letters. US MD students are given superior clinical training and better career opportunies when compared to their DO counterparts.
 
Cyberdyne 101 said:
@Mavs88 beat me to it. The distinction goes beyond the actual letters. US MD students are given superior clinical training and better career opportunies when compared to their DO counterparts.
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Is this always the case? Even the BEST DO school versus the WORST MD?
 
sacholiver said:
Is this always the case? Even the BEST DO school versus the WORST MD?
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Yes. That's been the whole point of this thread and what a handful of residents, attendings etc have been trying to get across to you repeatedly.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
Kind of irrelevant, since you're comparing a completely unknown (i.e. likely one of the worst) new DO school versus a very well respected MD school.
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My question wasn't regarding IU and MUCOM. It was just a general question. Do I need to start a new thread for that?
 
Well established MD school with rotations in the best hospitals in the state vs new DO school rotating at community hospitals?

No brainer. Like all applicants you seem to be placing far too much emphasis on soft factors that don't matter at all in the grand scheme of your overall medical education.
 
sacholiver said:
What about Caribbean MD? Just curious.
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Caribbean MD is a whole separate discussion. With the upcoming merger amongst other things, it's very difficult to recommend the Caribbean route to anybody given the low chances of someone who starts off at a Caribbean school actually obtaining a residency. In reality you could argue about 30-40% of people who start off as Caribbean MS1s will ever find a residency( a number that is only declining). Keep in mind many of these "matches" will be to dead end prelims as well.

Compare that to US MD/DO's where the graduation rates are over 95% and the % of grads who find a residency is also over 95%.
 
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sacholiver said:
Can MD's do rotations in OMM?
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If OMM becomes a de facto requirement for an application to the previously DO ortho or derm programs, you will see courses spring up and fill at any price.
 
In the defense of Marian's rotations, they do have excellent hospitals participating. The state has put a lot of support behind this school, and there are rotations at the largest Catholic hospital chains and even the community hospitals offer patient diversity, including a well-respected children's hospital. But IU is the biggest game in the state and the system in place for rotations are better than at most DO schools, with rotations at VA, Riley and the behemoth known as IU Health.
In defense of Marian and their education, the anatomy instructors are actually IU adjuncts, and in coming years, the neuroscience classes will be taught at Marian by the same team at IUSM.

I know of at least one person that chose Marian over IU because they didn't get their preferred campus and wanted to live in Indy. They seem to be happy, but they are worried that they will not get a residency in their first choice specialty and will be applying in both DO and MD.
 
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Cyberdyne 101 said:
@Mavs88 beat me to it. The distinction goes beyond the actual letters. US MD students are given superior clinical training and better career opportunies when compared to their DO counterparts.
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Purely based on educational opportunities, yes MD schools as a category offer better, perhaps much better, opportunities than some DO schools, but I think each school should be judged based on its merits. Also, reading through the thread, I get the feeling that some people seem to care mostly about the letters, supposedly, because of what it means to others even after they all are practicing doctors. I can’t blame them for that either. Perception is a big part of life, but I thought it is irrational to make it about perceptions only. Having known some successful and very wealthy DO’s in the field, I’m not sure how much that perception carries weight in real life.
 
Dr. Adam said:
Purely based on educational opportunities, yes MD schools as a category offer better, perhaps much better, opportunities than some DO schools, but I think each school should be judged based on its merits. Also, reading through the thread, I get the feeling that some people seem to care mostly about the letters, supposedly, because of what it means to others even after they all are practicing doctors. I can’t blame them for that either. Perception is a big part of life, but I thought it is irrational to make it about perceptions only. Having known some successful and very wealthy DO’s in the field, I’m not sure how much that perception carries weight in real life.
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What merits are you describing? MD schools make huge impacts in not just research but in community service, public health, ethics, education, etc etc. DO schools make similar contributions as well.

Its not the letters, its being able to have as many opportunities as you can that as a DO you dont have. If you want to be a med educator you can go to an MD school and follow a MedEd track. Not a single a DO school offers this (though you can be an OMM educator if you want...). If you want to focus on research, an MD school has a track for you that includes journal clubs and mentorship. A journal club at a DO school? Nothin.

If you want to do academic medicine you just made it 10x harder to do so and guess what, youll end up a community doc who's unhappy because even though your step score was great, you were never accepted to a university residency and you know why. Sure, youre a practicing doctor but it wasnt the type of doc you wanted to be. Simply based on the fact you chose one route over the other. Thats as real as it gets and I think its important to know what your options are in both paths (MD or DO) so that an informed decision is made you know?
 
AlteredScale said:
What merits are you describing? MD schools make huge impacts in not just research but in community service, public health, ethics, education, etc etc. DO schools make similar contributions as well.

Its not the letters, its being able to have as many opportunities as you can that as a DO you dont have. If you want to be a med educator you can go to an MD school and follow a MedEd track. Not a single a DO school offers this (though you can be an OMM educator if you want...). If you want to focus on research, an MD school has a track for you that includes journal clubs and mentorship. A journal club at a DO school? Nothin.

If you want to do academic medicine you just made it 10x harder to do so and guess what, youll end up a community doc who's unhappy because even though your step score was great, you were never accepted to a university residency and you know why. Sure, youre a practicing doctor but it wasnt the type of doc you wanted to be. Simply based on the fact you chose one route over the other. Thats as real as it gets and I think its important to know what your options are in both paths (MD or DO).
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That's something else for me to consider specifically about the medical education part. I didn't know DO's have a lesser chance of being medical school professors than MD's. I want to eventually teach at a medical school (much later in my career)
 
sacholiver said:
That's something else for me to consider specifically about the medical education part. I didn't know DO's have a lesser chance of being medical school professors than MD's. I want to eventually teach at a medical school (much later in my career)
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Its not a "lesser chance" per se its just that you have MD schools that have focused tracks to get you where you need to go. It can be done at a DO school (we have an alum who is a professor of medicine for CWRU CCL) but again i am sure the process to get there was dramatic (and it was, he helped with the first clinical discovery and management of HIV/AIDs patients).

So again, path of least resistance my friend. Path of least resistance.
 
sacholiver said:
That's something else for me to consider specifically about the medical education part. I didn't know DO's have a lesser chance of being medical school professors than MD's. I want to eventually teach at a medical school (much later in my career)
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It may not be possible to get a paid teaching position much later in your career regardless of path. If you spend many years outside of academia neglecting your CV, you may not qualify.
 
sacholiver said:
Difference = Marian has a lot of potential, I wanted to potentially be a part of making it as good as it could. That's all. In the end, I'll be a doctor regardless.
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You should go to Marian, as long as you promise to bump this thread in four years and tell us how the process of obtaining a residency is going.
 
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