MD vs. DO

[Dr JPH]

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Has anybody mentioned the point about licensure in other countries?

That has been an issue in some countries in the past, but in the last 18 months there has been some major changes.

1. New Zealand
2. Ireland
3. Canada (ALL of Canada now)

DOs still have full practice rights in almost the rest of the world...most of Europe, Africa, Asia, South/Central America. The Middle East/Israel seems to be tough, but in order for ANY foreign trained physician to gain licensure there you must jump though hoops (1 year of Hebrew plus a few years working with an Israeli physician...almost like a resident again).

Seems that England & Scotland are the only major nations still restricting american trained DOs to "manipulation only." Has to do with the popularity of "osteopaths" in those countries.

 

[Dr JPH]

As I have stated in other threads, I believe that the DO degree is the same as the MD for all practical purposes. The major drawback that I see with DO schools is that they are expensive, and most of their students do primary care. More debt + primary care is not a good thing if you ask me.

Cant argue with you there.

🙁 🙁 🙁

B-R-O-K-E

Has to do with the lack of large university affiliation for most of the DO schools.

 

[GreenShirt]

As I have stated in other threads, I believe that the DO degree is the same as the MD for all practical purposes. The major drawback that I see with DO schools is that they are expensive, and most of their students do primary care. More debt + primary care is not a good thing if you ask me.

On the other hand, you're eligible for the government's primary care scholars program. You could leave school debt free if you become a PCP. They're really trying to throw a lot of perks towards PCP nowadays. It almost makes me want to reconsider doing EM.

 

[p9142]

On the other hand, you're eligible for the government's primary care scholars program. You could leave school debt free if you become a PCP. They're really trying to throw a lot of perks towards PCP nowadays. It almost makes me want to reconsider doing EM.

You are eligible if you are MD or DO. Not everyone who goes the DO route and becomes a PCP will get this money, hence there are some who will be left with a lot of debt and not a lot of earning power.

 

[Critical Mass]

Great, now I feel dirty about my post (LOL). Don't get me wrong, I enjoy raunchy. I just couldn't help pointing it out the contrast when you signed w/ the Harry Potter references earlier. No offense meant.

It's cool. 😎 Much respeck.

The HP reference in my signature is actually kind of an inside joke to the folks who knew me by my previous name.

I had never heard of a DO until I graduated from college, but they are eligilble to take the USMLE just like MD's. In most cases, if they score well on the licensing exam, they have a good shot at getting a residency on par with what an MD would get.

Regarding my earlier point, I have heard that the DO is not as transferable overseas. It's just something that I read on SDN. I'm inclined to believe JPH on most DO topics. 👍

 

[GreenShirt]

In a lot of countries you have to jump through extra hoops to become liscenced if you have a foreign medical degree, including an MD. For example, I was in Tanzania, on a medical mission trip a few years back and our team leader, a Yale grad Opthamologist, couldn't so much as touch a patient there, bc/ he wasn't liscenced in that country.

The notion that MD=passport to the world is wrong.

 

[p9142]

Regarding my earlier point, I have heard that the DO is not as transferable overseas. It's just something that I read on SDN.

We are all stuck here after we graduate anyways. How could you possibly pay off your loans unless you were getting the high pay of an American doctor.

 

[docolive]

Eh, could be.

I think naturopathy says eat the entire root.

Homeopathy says dilute the root to unmeasurable concentrations then drink the root.

 

[EEK]

Kuba - your right, I was exaggerating. But the point I was trying to make is that if you want to specialize - I feel that an MD school would be the easier route.

I am sorry if I came off negative - I just felt the poster was asking more for the disadvantages of going to a DO school. I think the length of this thread shows what the major disadvantage is.

But I also think that there are some pros (including OMT - regardless of whether it has clinical merit - and I'm not saying it does or doesn't - I really don't know). From a personal experience, I've seen OMT used, and the patient's response was very positive. As a training tool, I think it is great at promoting patient-physician relations by making new physicians more comfortable with touching and diagnosing patients.

I also found the admissions staff to be more helpful and friendlier at DO schools. Which I think reflects the type of composer and attitude that DO schools try to integrate into their students. And I think that's what DO schools really pride themselves in - the personal approach to medicine.

To prospective MDs, in no way am I implying that MDs are cold hearted bastards (I'm sure there are very altruistic people in MD schools and I hope I'm one too) - but I do think the history of MD schools have lead to an over emphasis of "symptoms to diagnosis to treatment" approach that tend to neglect personal attitudes, different cultural beliefs, etc. But there are also obvious advantages to going to MD schools - which I won't go into.

 

[Dr JPH]

Are there advantages to the MD degree? Absolutely. But an advantage with an MD degree does not necessarily translate to a DISadvantage because of a DO degree.

1. A graduating MD will always have an easier time matching into an allopathic residency spot when compared to a DO of similar merit (grades, boards, letters, etc)

2. An MD will likely never have to explain "Whats an MD?" in their career (not a benefit I suppose, perhaps more of a convenience)

3. There are far more spots in allopathic residency and fellowship programs than osteopathic...its just plain numbers. 125+ MD schools vs 25ish DO schools. There has to be more training progams to accomodate graduates.

4. International licensure is more easily obtained with a US MD degree than DO degree, although the misconception that an MD degree is a Free Pass to practice medicine outside the US is greatly flawed.

5. The "MD" title is perhaps the most recognized title in our society.

Now...are these necessarily DISadvantages for a DO? Yes and no.

If I, as a DO, want to go to Cornell for surgery I am at a disadvantage. Not only am I applying to an allopathic program, but I am applying to a damn good allopathic program. Who else is at a disadvantage? Probably any MD applicant who didnt go to one of the bigger name MD schools. But still, biggest disadvantage goes to the DO (Carib MD not included).

If I, as a DO, want to practice medicine in a foreign country not only do I need to petition that nations Department of Health, but I also need to prove my education meets the standards set forth by the licensing/governing bodies for MD schools. Red tape.

As far as the DO title vs the MD title, I have yet to meet a patient that:
1. Cares where their doctor went to school
2. Asks if I am an MD or a DO
3. Has any bias towards DOs, even upon finding out what a DO is

I HAVE, however had patients who are pleased that I am a DO. The conversation is usually along the lines of "Oh, youre a DO. My (uncle/brother/sister/grandmother/cousin) saw a DO when they were (car accident/fall/knee injury/headaches) and he did wonders for them!"

Again, the overwhelming majority are clueless to the fact that their doctor is a DO.

In postgraduate educational opportunities the DO is definately limited. DOs really should take the USMLE if you intend on applying to an allopathic program. Not necessary, but recommended IMO.

One plus is that DOs have the opportunity to apply to BOTH osteopathic and allopathic programs, theoretically increasing the chances of matching.

Another plus is that on a pure numbers basis the competitiveness for some of the big residencies/fellowships is easier at osteopathic programs. Rather than 800 applicants applying for 80 spots, you may have 80 applicants applying for 20 spots. Its funny that on the osteopathic interview trail the same people keep popping up place after place and for many its not a matter of IF you match, but WHERE you match.

So do I feel hindered by being a DO. Not really. I'm a little sad that I may not ever become AMA president, but I will get over it.


In fact, the current president of AMSA (American Medical Student Association) is a DO student (PCOM 2008).

 

[Pansit]

Are there advantages to the MD degree? Absolutely. But an advantage with an MD degree does not necessarily translate to a DISadvantage because of a DO degree.

1. A graduating MD will always have an easier time matching into an allopathic residency spot when compared to a DO of similar merit (grades, boards, letters, etc)

2. An MD will likely never have to explain "Whats an MD?" in their career (not a benefit I suppose, perhaps more of a convenience)

3. There are far more spots in allopathic residency and fellowship programs than osteopathic...its just plain numbers. 125+ MD schools vs 25ish DO schools. There has to be more training progams to accomodate graduates.

4. International licensure is more easily obtained with a US MD degree than DO degree, although the misconception that an MD degree is a Free Pass to practice medicine outside the US is greatly flawed.

5. The "MD" title is perhaps the most recognized title in our society.

Now...are these necessarily DISadvantages for a DO? Yes and no.

If I, as a DO, want to go to Cornell for surgery I am at a disadvantage. Not only am I applying to an allopathic program, but I am applying to a damn good allopathic program. Who else is at a disadvantage? Probably any MD applicant who didnt go to one of the bigger name MD schools. But still, biggest disadvantage goes to the DO (Carib MD not included).

If I, as a DO, want to practice medicine in a foreign country not only do I need to petition that nations Department of Health, but I also need to prove my education meets the standards set forth by the licensing/governing bodies for MD schools. Red tape.

As far as the DO title vs the MD title, I have yet to meet a patient that:
1. Cares where their doctor went to school
2. Asks if I am an MD or a DO
3. Has any bias towards DOs, even upon finding out what a DO is

I HAVE, however had patients who are pleased that I am a DO. The conversation is usually along the lines of "Oh, youre a DO. My (uncle/brother/sister/grandmother/cousin) saw a DO when they were (car accident/fall/knee injury/headaches) and he did wonders for them!"

Again, the overwhelming majority are clueless to the fact that their doctor is a DO.

In postgraduate educational opportunities the DO is definately limited. DOs really should take the USMLE if you intend on applying to an allopathic program. Not necessary, but recommended IMO.

One plus is that DOs have the opportunity to apply to BOTH osteopathic and allopathic programs, theoretically increasing the chances of matching.

Another plus is that on a pure numbers basis the competitiveness for some of the big residencies/fellowships is easier at osteopathic programs. Rather than 800 applicants applying for 80 spots, you may have 80 applicants applying for 20 spots. Its funny that on the osteopathic interview trail the same people keep popping up place after place and for many its not a matter of IF you match, but WHERE you match.

So do I feel hindered by being a DO. Not really. I'm a little sad that I may not ever become AMA president, but I will get over it.


In fact, the current president of AMSA (American Medical Student Association) is a DO student (PCOM 2008).

So basically, your are a disadvantaged as a DO for competitive allopathic residencies and in acquiring a license in some countries...everything else seems to be equal and on par if you have the competitive stats...does that some it up JP...

 

[Dr JPH]

So basically, your are a disadvantaged as a DO for competitive allopathic residencies and in acquiring a license in some countries...everything else seems to be equal and on par if you have the competitive stats...does that some it up JP...

Seems to be. At least that has been my experience for the last 5 years! 👍

Oh...and signing "DO" after your name is tough. I cant figure out a nice transition from "D" to "O".

 

[63768]

jphazelton, awesome posts man.

i'll probably be heading to TCOM next year (unless TAMU takes me off their waitlist). not looking forward to taking the USMLE and COMLEX, but i don't see myself having a problem with competitive allo residencies if i set my goal for USMLE above 230-240 or something like that. and you're completely right, patients don't care whether you're MD or DO as long as you treat them right and get them back on their feet. sure you have to fight with those people thinking DO = voodoo magic medicine, but in a decade or so, i don't think that'll be a problem, judging from current progress.

that and TCOM being a state school = state tuition and ranked in the USNews for primary care doesn't hurt either!

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

tried to find a picture to post, but when i put in "md vs. do" into google image all I got was this:

: / Sorry.

 

[BigRedPremed]

Are there advantages to the MD degree? Absolutely. But an advantage with an MD degree does not necessarily translate to a DISadvantage because of a DO degree.

1. A graduating MD will always have an easier time matching into an allopathic residency spot when compared to a DO of similar merit (grades, boards, letters, etc)

2. An MD will likely never have to explain "Whats an MD?" in their career (not a benefit I suppose, perhaps more of a convenience)

3. There are far more spots in allopathic residency and fellowship programs than osteopathic...its just plain numbers. 125+ MD schools vs 25ish DO schools. There has to be more training progams to accomodate graduates.

4. International licensure is more easily obtained with a US MD degree than DO degree, although the misconception that an MD degree is a Free Pass to practice medicine outside the US is greatly flawed.

5. The "MD" title is perhaps the most recognized title in our society.

Now...are these necessarily DISadvantages for a DO? Yes and no.

If I, as a DO, want to go to Cornell for surgery I am at a disadvantage. Not only am I applying to an allopathic program, but I am applying to a damn good allopathic program. Who else is at a disadvantage? Probably any MD applicant who didnt go to one of the bigger name MD schools. But still, biggest disadvantage goes to the DO (Carib MD not included).

If I, as a DO, want to practice medicine in a foreign country not only do I need to petition that nations Department of Health, but I also need to prove my education meets the standards set forth by the licensing/governing bodies for MD schools. Red tape.

As far as the DO title vs the MD title, I have yet to meet a patient that:
1. Cares where their doctor went to school
2. Asks if I am an MD or a DO
3. Has any bias towards DOs, even upon finding out what a DO is

I HAVE, however had patients who are pleased that I am a DO. The conversation is usually along the lines of "Oh, youre a DO. My (uncle/brother/sister/grandmother/cousin) saw a DO when they were (car accident/fall/knee injury/headaches) and he did wonders for them!"

Again, the overwhelming majority are clueless to the fact that their doctor is a DO.

In postgraduate educational opportunities the DO is definately limited. DOs really should take the USMLE if you intend on applying to an allopathic program. Not necessary, but recommended IMO.

One plus is that DOs have the opportunity to apply to BOTH osteopathic and allopathic programs, theoretically increasing the chances of matching.

Another plus is that on a pure numbers basis the competitiveness for some of the big residencies/fellowships is easier at osteopathic programs. Rather than 800 applicants applying for 80 spots, you may have 80 applicants applying for 20 spots. Its funny that on the osteopathic interview trail the same people keep popping up place after place and for many its not a matter of IF you match, but WHERE you match.

So do I feel hindered by being a DO. Not really. I'm a little sad that I may not ever become AMA president, but I will get over it.


In fact, the current president of AMSA (American Medical Student Association) is a DO student (PCOM 2008).

Good post. 👍