Palindr0me

hi.
5+ Year Member
May 11, 2012
101
148
Status
Medical Student
I made a search and couldn't really find the exact information I was looking for...

Why do so many different pre-medical students choose the MD route over the DO route if they're practically the same (and DO is presumably easier to get into)? Is it because the title of MD is more preferable? Someone please clarify this for me... haha.
 

Thego2guy

7+ Year Member
Sep 19, 2011
725
193
NY
Status
Medical Student
Because allopathic residency positions are nearly unattainable for osteopathic graduates. There are more MD residencies out there as well, so they offer more variability. You're a DO and want to practice one of the highly competitive specialties? It will be very harder for you to do that in respect to an MD.
 
OP
Palindr0me

Palindr0me

hi.
5+ Year Member
May 11, 2012
101
148
Status
Medical Student
Because allopathic residency positions are nearly unattainable for osteopathic graduates. There are more MD residencies out there as well, so they offer more variability. You're a DO and want to practice one of the highly competitive specialties? It will be very harder for you to do that in respect to an MD.
That makes a lot more sense. Thank you. :)
 

Thego2guy

7+ Year Member
Sep 19, 2011
725
193
NY
Status
Medical Student
That makes a lot more sense. Thank you. :)
Np dude, this has been extensively discussed though, so if you try to search a little harder (google? SDN always pops up there) I'm sure you'll find many many many more bits of information about this and other matters (NP vs MD, etc..)

DO is a good route, but MD might be a better one for many specialties.

Good luck in your studies:xf:
 

sector9

Moderator Emeritus
5+ Year Member
Apr 27, 2011
11,139
161
Status
Medical Student
Because allopathic residency positions are nearly unattainable for osteopathic graduates.
I don't think that the bolded is correct. In 2011, 1561 DO grads matched NRMP (aka allopathic residency) and 1895 matched AOA (aka osteopathic residency) from a total pool of 3875 DO grads (89% match rate overall). (reference http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=813819). Allopathic residency spots are more competitive especially in top programs and competitive fields but you're painting with too broad a brush when you say that they're "nearly unattainable" for DO grads.
 
Last edited:

Thego2guy

7+ Year Member
Sep 19, 2011
725
193
NY
Status
Medical Student
I don't think that the bolded is correct. In 2011, 1561 DO grads matched NRMP (aka allopathic residency) and 1895 matched AOA (aka osteopathic residency) from a total pool of 3875 DO grads (89% match rate overall). (reference http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=813819). Allopathic residency spots are more competitive especially in top programs and competitive fields but you're painting with too broad a brush when you say that they're "nearly unattainable" for DO grads.
Agreed :thumbup:

Sorry if it was too broad of a generalization, I figured it might suffice for the OP to get the idea. Nevertheless, the location and quality of those matched MD residency positions is surely a factor that is [probably] not reflected in those statistics.
 

SpecterGT260

Catdoucheus
5+ Year Member
Feb 1, 2012
8,223
82
Status
Medical Student
lol how did you not find the info you were looking for? anyways:
DOs have difficulty matching in allopathic residencies overall with increased difficulty for things outside of primary care. there are also limited AOA residencies so it is not possible to stay within the DO world for all of them.
 

MedPR

Removed
Dec 1, 2011
18,581
44
Status
Pre-Podiatry
lol how did you not find the info you were looking for? anyways:
DOs have difficulty matching in allopathic residencies overall with increased difficulty for things outside of primary care. there are also limited AOA residencies so it is not possible to stay within the DO world for all of them.

There is absolutely no data to support that. DOs have a harder time matching into the very competitive MD residency programs, meaning individual programs and not type of program. And the only reason this is true is the myth that MDs are better than DOs.

People continue to say that DOs need higher USMLE scores than MDs do to get into the same program. For the vast majority of ACGME programs this is not true.
 

willen101383

10+ Year Member
Jul 22, 2004
2,711
43
Status
Resident [Any Field]
lol how did you not find the info you were looking for? anyways:
DOs have difficulty matching in allopathic residencies overall with increased difficulty for things outside of primary care. there are also limited AOA residencies so it is not possible to stay within the DO world for all of them.
This. OP there are literally HUNDREDS of threads if not more answering this exact question...come on.
 

willen101383

10+ Year Member
Jul 22, 2004
2,711
43
Status
Resident [Any Field]
There is absolutely no data to support that. DOs have a harder time matching into the very competitive MD residency programs, meaning individual programs and not type of program.

People continue to say that DOs need higher USMLE scores than MDs do to get into the same program. For the vast majority of ACGME programs this is not true.
Come on dude. It obviously is harder as a DO to match to MD programs. Sure maybe of the programs that accept DOs you may be on equalish footing...but plenty of programs wont take DOs. I go to PCOM, and there are maybe 1 or 2 DOs in the EM programs (I am pursuing EM so this is where my knowledge lies) in all the philly area med schools except for penn which has none. It is harder and it would be silly to say otherwise. The only ivory tower program that takes DOs into EM in high numbers is hopkins...and they are still in the vast minority.
 

MedPR

Removed
Dec 1, 2011
18,581
44
Status
Pre-Podiatry
Come on dude. It obviously is harder as a DO to match to MD programs. Sure maybe of the programs that accept DOs you may be on equalish footing...but plenty of programs wont take DOs. I go to PCOM, and there are maybe 1 or 2 DOs in the EM programs (I am pursuing EM so this is where my knowledge lies) in all the philly area med schools except for penn which has none. It is harder and it would be silly to say otherwise. The only ivory tower program that takes DOs into EM in high numbers is hopkins...and they are still in the vast minority.
Just because there are only a few DOs where you are does not mean the schools actively screen out DOs or hold DOs to a higher standard.

The fact that DOs have a harder time matching into most ACGME programs is a myth that is perpetuated by pre-meds and med students who are looking for any reason why their MD is better than someone else's DO.
 

SpecterGT260

Catdoucheus
5+ Year Member
Feb 1, 2012
8,223
82
Status
Medical Student
There is absolutely no data to support that. DOs have a harder time matching into the very competitive MD residency programs, meaning individual programs and not type of program. And the only reason this is true is the myth that MDs are better than DOs.

People continue to say that DOs need higher USMLE scores than MDs do to get into the same program. For the vast majority of ACGME programs this is not true.
I think there is quite a bit of data out there to support it. And 1 of the following is true - either they need higher scores (which is not what i said, but since you brought it up....) which contributes to the lower per capita matching as you move away from primary care or DOs simply do not get as high of scores. You can choose whichever makes you feel better, I really don't care :idea:

p.s., to the OP, THIS is why there are so many of these threads. If you imply (or rather if someone reading your post believes you implied...) anything short of "DOs are gods gift to medicine and anyone going MD is only interested in propagating a myth and is preoccupied with the letters behind their name and hates puppies" you immediately get jumped on. :thumbup: :laugh:
 
Jul 17, 2010
2,149
24
Status
Medical Student
Just because there are only a few DOs where you are does not mean the schools actively screen out DOs or hold DOs to a higher standard.

The fact that DOs have a harder time matching into most ACGME programs is a myth that is perpetuated by pre-meds and med students who are looking for any reason why their MD is better than someone else's DO.
What does having few DOs mean then? These certainly are not undesireable programs we are talking about here.
 

willen101383

10+ Year Member
Jul 22, 2004
2,711
43
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Just because there are only a few DOs where you are does not mean the schools actively screen out DOs or hold DOs to a higher standard.

The fact that DOs have a harder time matching into most ACGME programs is a myth that is perpetuated by pre-meds and med students who are looking for any reason why their MD is better than someone else's DO.
Alright dude I guess I dont know what I am talking about :cool: I am not perpetuating anything. I am A. a DO student, B. Ive been in the game long enough. C. Ive been a member of this website for 8 years now and this constantly comes up and is validated by people at all stages of the game, not just premeds.

There is plenty of data out there that stats DOs have a harder time, and that certain programs actively screen out DOs. No point in arguing tho, youll believe what you want.
 

willen101383

10+ Year Member
Jul 22, 2004
2,711
43
Status
Resident [Any Field]
I think there is quite a bit of data out there to support it. And 1 of the following is true - either they need higher scores (which is not what i said, but since you brought it up....) which contributes to the lower per capita matching as you move away from primary care or DOs simply do not get as high of scores. You can choose whichever makes you feel better, I really don't care :idea:

p.s., to the OP, THIS is why there are so many of these threads. If you imply (or rather if someone reading your post believes you implied...) anything short of "DOs are gods gift to medicine and anyone going MD is only interested in propagating a myth and is preoccupied with the letters behind their name and hates puppies" you immediately get jumped on. :thumbup: :laugh:
And hell, even being a DO student who has plenty of experiences with this I still get jumped on.

Its impossible to have a fing honest discussion about the downsides (and upsides) of going the DO route without people on both sides getting all butthurt.

But in all honesty I remember the days when I was a premed and people would rip on the DO route and I would say all sorts of insane **** to refute it. But once you are a DO student and deal with the downsides on a daily basis you understand that negatives do exist. Not all of them apply to everyone, and not all of them are dealbreakers...but negatives exist and people need to realize that.

I cant say I didnt get in to an MD school...because I never applied..but at the end of the day I am grateful to have been accepted to PCOM and to have the opportunity to become a physician. End of story.
 

Markp

Clinical Psychologist
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Nov 19, 2007
2,262
20
Status
Psychologist
This is much like the phd/psyd debate in psychology. Things generally are easier for the phd practitioner, however it is far more nuanced than that. There are many excellent DO programs out there with training on par with MD programs, residency programs realize this and realize that some excellent students select top tier DO programs for a variety of reasons. However, on the lower end of the spectrum are DO schools with less than stellar reputations that create a stigma that DO's are somehow inferior to MD's. The fact that generalized outcome data provides some support for this also reinforces this stigma. The fact remains that in the end the cream will generally rise to the top. DO's may experience some initial disadvantages, but other factors (especially program reputation and other measures of student achievement) can provide sufficient counterbalance to allow DO students to rise above the stigma. Some programs however will remain resistant to the inclusion of DO's in their residency programs, and you won't be able to change that.

Bottom line, if you want to stack the deck in your favor, attend the best program for the speciality you wish to pursue. If the answer is that MD's have a higher success rate, why would you consider an DO program? It would require some compelling reason to go the DO path and swim upstream.

Mark
 
Jul 17, 2010
2,149
24
Status
Medical Student
Bottom line, if you want to stack the deck in your favor, attend the best program for the speciality you wish to pursue. If the answer is that MD's have a higher success rate, why would you consider an DO program? It would require some compelling reason to go the DO path and swim upstream.
:thumbup:

Why can't all MD/DO threads just end like this?
 

SpecterGT260

Catdoucheus
5+ Year Member
Feb 1, 2012
8,223
82
Status
Medical Student
And hell, even being a DO student who has plenty of experiences with this I still get jumped on.

Its impossible to have a fing honest discussion about the downsides (and upsides) of going the DO route without people on both sides getting all butthurt.

But in all honesty I remember the days when I was a premed and people would rip on the DO route and I would say all sorts of insane **** to refute it. But once you are a DO student and deal with the downsides on a daily basis you understand that negatives do exist. Not all of them apply to everyone, and not all of them are dealbreakers...but negatives exist and people need to realize that.

I cant say I didnt get in to an MD school...because I never applied..but at the end of the day I am grateful to have been accepted to PCOM and to have the opportunity to become a physician. End of story.
and we all seem to (not you and i.... i mostly mean everyone else but it isnt PC to point a finger :laugh:) forget that saying there is a downside or saying something will be more difficult is in no way saying someone is "worse". Two completely different and non-overlapping ideas.
 

SpecterGT260

Catdoucheus
5+ Year Member
Feb 1, 2012
8,223
82
Status
Medical Student
Just because there are only a few DOs where you are does not mean the schools actively screen out DOs or hold DOs to a higher standard.

The fact that DOs have a harder time matching into most ACGME programs is a myth that is perpetuated by pre-meds and med students who are looking for any reason why their MD is better than someone else's DO.
If you just look at the stats
http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf

1) The overall osteopathic match rate is lower than allopathic. Id have to find the correct papers, but I believe these stats are "of those who applied" which is presented in a failed/succeeded type of scenario so it is already normalized and useful when comparing the two types of graduates. AOA residencies and selection bias be damned :)

But in the link I gave, on page 25-27 you get allopathic and osteopathic numbers. These are presented in % of those who applied. So for successful matches, osteopathic students are matching at a lower rate to non primary care specialties (please understand that I am not and have not implied a reason for this. These are just the numbers). DOs are overreprested as compared to MDs in peds, family practice, and EM, and psych. They are underreprested as compared to MDs in all surgery types.

an interesting comparison would be the stats on that page compared to average STEP1 score for each specialty (as a measure of specialty competitiveness). Again, this does not imply better or worse. But it does indicate relative ability to match competitively. You need to work to understand the difference and why ability to match competitively is in no way intrinsically offensive or insulting.

also see page 10 for a nice breakdown of match rates in ACGME programs by applicant type.
 
Last edited:

sean80439

7+ Year Member
Apr 15, 2012
327
134
Status
Resident [Any Field]
This is much like the phd/psyd debate in psychology.
No, and the reason behind that is that there are numerous PsyD programs that aren't even accredited, and additionally, one is clinical based and one is research based. They are only similar in that they both focus on the field of Psychology. The differences between DO and MD medical programs is the addition of one subject. The argument is not analogous. Furthermore, because Joe told Fred that Sam didn't get into some program because of such and such score is laughable. Anecdote != Data and it scares me that people interested in becoming doctors propagate this type of information as fact. The only thing that matters when it comes down to it is statistics.
 

USCTrojan11

ASA Member
7+ Year Member
Apr 21, 2010
341
6
Next to School
Status
Medical Student
Just because there are only a few DOs where you are does not mean the schools actively screen out DOs or hold DOs to a higher standard.

The fact that DOs have a harder time matching into most ACGME programs is a myth that is perpetuated by pre-meds and med students who are looking for any reason why their MD is better than someone else's DO.
True, but chances are if you live in a desirable location, they're are quite few DO in the residencies there. Just take a look at Harbor-UCLA, Reagan, USC residents in radio, ophto, ortho, ENT - google the websites. Very very very few DOs. A couple more in FM and Peds though.
 

Markp

Clinical Psychologist
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Nov 19, 2007
2,262
20
Status
Psychologist
No, and the reason behind that is that there are numerous PsyD programs that aren't even accredited, and additionally, one is clinical based and one is research based. They are only similar in that they both focus on the field of Psychology. The differences between DO and MD medical programs is the addition of one subject. The argument is not analogous. Furthermore, because Joe told Fred that Sam didn't get into some program because of such and such score is laughable. Anecdote != Data and it scares me that people interested in becoming doctors propagate this type of information as fact. The only thing that matters when it comes down to it is statistics.
That's not what I am talking about. I was referring to apa accredited programs only as non accredited programs for both Psyd and Phd exist. The curricula is different between the two sometimes but top name Psyd programs do as well as top tier Phd programs when compared on appic match rates.

The argument is analogous for several reasons as follows:

MD and PhD programs are generally more competitive with regards to admission.

There is a stigma that affects Psyd applicants when competing for apa accredited internships that is very similar to the stigma that affects DO students in residency applications.

There are low quality DO schools that drag down the reputations of other good DO programs. Much like some free standing professional psychology programs.

There are far more parallels than you might imagine. My "research" PhD program prepared me just as well as any Psyd program for clinical practice, that I can assure you, despite differences in curricula.

You bring up anecdote vs statistic. While statistics are a wonderful things for evaluating trends and making generalizations they mean nearly zero to the individual. When we get to the individual the ability to accurately predict outcomes decreases unless we have a sophisticated model that compensates for a vast number of variables that can affect final outcomes. You can tell me I have a 99% chance of beating a disease, but if I am that one percent, there is little you can do to change the outcome. Knowing that I fit the profile as that 1% person. That's tricky. Sometimes anecdotes are very useful, which is why even today we use case studies.
 

Law2Doc

5K+ Member
Moderator Emeritus
10+ Year Member
Dec 20, 2004
30,981
9,887
Status
Attending Physician
... The differences between DO and MD medical programs is the addition of one subject...
This is certainly the osteopath tag line. But the real difference stems from history. DO is an offshoot from MD -- they schismed away a generation ago because they didn't like the philosophy. Until relatively recently, they worked exclusively in their own hospitals and weren't licensed to prescribe medications. It's only relatively recently that DO students have forsaken their differing philosophies and are applying in droves to allo residencies. But the older doctors out there still remember a time when DO did not equate to MD, and so the fact that the current generation sees it as the same won't really change that viewpoint. There are certainly specialties and geographic regions where osteopathy has yet to get a foothold. And they represent less than 20% of med schools out there so it's not really two equals at the table.

Med school is 4 very full years. I've yet to see good evidence that osteopaths spend more time between coursework and study time than allopaths, and so this whole notion of being an MD PLUS OMM claim has to stop. Any time you spend on OMM is necessarily coming from something else. Lots of DOs I've known had a lot less of some of the biochem/pharm/histology stuff in first year, so I suspect that's where this time is coming from at a number of schools. But no DO is not an enhanced degree, as much as folks on the osteo board like to portray it. Not going to fly when talking to folks who were immersed in medicine 24/7 in an allo school, and feel like they barely had time to do all that material justice in 4 years. 4 years is 4 years, and unless you are claiming mental superiority or something, we have to assume that time taken to learn OMM comes from time you could have been spending on something else. It's simple math.
 

TheLesPaul

10+ Year Member
Aug 20, 2007
735
76
Status
Attending Physician
I'm not sure about that -- med school isn't 4 years, 24/7...I can imagine it'd be quite easy to tack on a 2-hr OMM course twice a week on top of the typical 8-12 lecture schedule I had at my allopathic med school.

Also, to all the premeds insisting it's really not that hard for DOs to match to allopathic residency spots -- when you are looking at something more competitive than IM/family/peds/psych, it becomes much much harder. No program will state it on their website, but you gotta listen to those of us who've seen it in action.
 

SpecterGT260

Catdoucheus
5+ Year Member
Feb 1, 2012
8,223
82
Status
Medical Student
I'm not sure about that -- med school isn't 4 years, 24/7...I can imagine it'd be quite easy to tack on a 2-hr OMM course twice a week on top of the typical 8-12 lecture schedule I had at my allopathic med school.

Also, to all the premeds insisting it's really not that hard for DOs to match to allopathic residency spots -- when you are looking at something more competitive than IM/family/peds/psych, it becomes much much harder. No program will state it on their website, but you gotta listen to those of us who've seen it in action.
NRMP PF survey :thumbup: one of the listed criteria is whether or not graduated from a us allopathic school

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile
 

Thego2guy

7+ Year Member
Sep 19, 2011
725
193
NY
Status
Medical Student
This is certainly the osteopath tag line. But the real difference stems from history. DO is an offshoot from MD -- they schismed away a generation ago because they didn't like the philosophy. Until relatively recently, they worked exclusively in their own hospitals and weren't licensed to prescribe medications. It's only relatively recently that DO students have forsaken their differing philosophies and are applying in droves to allo residencies. But the older doctors out there still remember a time when DO did not equate to MD, and so the fact that the current generation sees it as the same won't really change that viewpoint. There are certainly specialties and geographic regions where osteopathy has yet to get a foothold. And they represent less than 20% of med schools out there so it's not really two equals at the table.

Med school is 4 very full years. I've yet to see good evidence that osteopaths spend more time between coursework and study time than allopaths, and so this whole notion of being an MD PLUS OMM claim has to stop. Any time you spend on OMM is necessarily coming from something else. Lots of DOs I've known had a lot less of some of the biochem/pharm/histology stuff in first year, so I suspect that's where this time is coming from at a number of schools. But no DO is not an enhanced degree, as much as folks on the osteo board like to portray it. Not going to fly when talking to folks who were immersed in medicine 24/7 in an allo school, and feel like they barely had time to do all that material justice in 4 years. 4 years is 4 years, and unless you are claiming mental superiority or something, we have to assume that time taken to learn OMM comes from time you could have been spending on something else. It's simple math.
I hope this is not too personal, but knowing what you know now, would you have ever went to an osteopathic med school should you not have made any allo schools? Or would you have reapplied or done something else?
 

235788

God Complex
10+ Year Member
Dec 5, 2008
5,368
15
The Slab
Status
Medical Student
Just because there are only a few DOs where you are does not mean the schools actively screen out DOs or hold DOs to a higher standard.

The fact that DOs have a harder time matching into most ACGME programs is a myth that is perpetuated by pre-meds and med students who are looking for any reason why their MD is better than someone else's DO.
are you a DO student or something? I'm sure the caribbean students aren't held to higher standards either :rolleyes:


I think OP is Macman101...
 

willen101383

10+ Year Member
Jul 22, 2004
2,711
43
Status
Resident [Any Field]
This is certainly the osteopath tag line. But the real difference stems from history. DO is an offshoot from MD -- they schismed away a generation ago because they didn't like the philosophy. Until relatively recently, they worked exclusively in their own hospitals and weren't licensed to prescribe medications. It's only relatively recently that DO students have forsaken their differing philosophies and are applying in droves to allo residencies. But the older doctors out there still remember a time when DO did not equate to MD, and so the fact that the current generation sees it as the same won't really change that viewpoint. There are certainly specialties and geographic regions where osteopathy has yet to get a foothold. And they represent less than 20% of med schools out there so it's not really two equals at the table.

Med school is 4 very full years. I've yet to see good evidence that osteopaths spend more time between coursework and study time than allopaths, and so this whole notion of being an MD PLUS OMM claim has to stop. Any time you spend on OMM is necessarily coming from something else. Lots of DOs I've known had a lot less of some of the biochem/pharm/histology stuff in first year, so I suspect that's where this time is coming from at a number of schools. But no DO is not an enhanced degree, as much as folks on the osteo board like to portray it. Not going to fly when talking to folks who were immersed in medicine 24/7 in an allo school, and feel like they barely had time to do all that material justice in 4 years. 4 years is 4 years, and unless you are claiming mental superiority or something, we have to assume that time taken to learn OMM comes from time you could have been spending on something else. It's simple math.
This idea makes sense but in reality I really dont think its true. OMM for us was a 1.5 hour lab once a week in the afternoon when nobody at any med school generally has class....and perhaps 1 1 hour lab every other week (or even less frequent). I really dont think we missed anything to insert those scant requirements into the curriculum. Maybe some schools are different, but at PCOM OMM instruction time is next to nothing thank all the gods of all the religions of the world.
 

willen101383

10+ Year Member
Jul 22, 2004
2,711
43
Status
Resident [Any Field]
I hope this is not too personal, but knowing what you know now, would you have ever went to an osteopathic med school should you not have made any allo schools? Or would you have reapplied or done something else?
You werent responding to me but I will reply since I saw it. I am a bit of a weird situation because I never applied to any MD schools because although I had a 3.78 in grad school my undergrad GPA was still HORRIBLE. My grad school GPA wouldnt have moved my undergrad GPA on amcas...but AACOMAS has a spot for cumulative undergrad+grad GPA. I knew I would have been prescreened at most MD schools so I just didnt bother wasting the money.

Knowing what I know now I would have DEF applied to some MD schools. It has nothing to do with perceived stigma, because i really dont buy into that crap, and its not a huge problem where I live/plan on practicing. It has nothing to do with my competitiveness at allo programs, since I am most likely doing EM and EM is a pretty DO friendly specialty currently. It has nothing to do with the education, since I found the instruction at my school to be VERY good and I personally dont see how the instruction at most allo school could be any better.

But it has everything to do with the attitude of the AOA, old school DOs, and the "OMM folk." They just fail to recognize what 90% of modern DO students want. They fail to recognize the fact that 90 or more percent of DO med students, upon graduation will never use OMM again. Yet they still push this like its some awesome thing that we have had bestowed upon us by the gods of osteopathy. No. Its not. And i just dont see how it would even be applicable to anyone outside of family medicine. Especially nowadays where there is a push to see more pts (and especially in family med) I just dont see most docs having the time to fit this into an exam session.

They fail to recognize that modern day DO grads arent interested in just being primary care docs...yet (the aoa especially) keeps pushing this idea. The chip these hardline DOs and OMM docs have on their shoulder is extremely offputting. Of all the grades I got in med school, my OMM grades were the lowest. And despite the instruction only taking maybe an hour a week if not less, it was a disproportionate pain in the ass....in terms of having to deal with ridiculous requirements the OMM dept put out (which again are driven by the fact that they have a chip on their shoulder). So to CHANGE what law2doc said....I dont think it impacts the DELIVERY of instruction of all the other disciplines...but I surely think it IMPACTS you studying for the other disciplines. For example: our OMM dept LOVED putting our written exams the monday of our finals weeks for blocks. So wed be forced to study for these which would divert my attention away from studying for a more important class....which is unacceptable. But then again, they likely believe their subject is just as important as the others.

I could literally go on and on about this for days, but I will spare you all that. I think DO schools have a lot of great attributes, and the DO philosophy (while mostly bull bc almost all DO grads practice in the same manner of our allo counterparts) is a good way to be looking at practicing medicine. I think the admissions focus on other things than just numbers is also a good way to be doing things. With my undergrad numbers I likely never would have gotten in to an MD program due to that AMCAS issue I spoke about. Yet I have been very successful grade wise in my DO school...and judging by my NBME practice test scores I should be very successful on my usmle next week as well. It just goes to show that grades really arent everything, and if DO schools werent around I may have been passed up on. So for that I am really thankful.

But at the end of the day there is really no compelling reason to go to a DO school unless you absolutely cannot get into an MD school/dont think you can get in or for some god aweful reason want to spend your life as an OMM specialist. I likely wouldnt reapply and wait another year for an MD acceptance tho...unless you have really great numbers and your app profile was too top heavy/something weird happened. Just not worth the time/chance of not getting an acceptance and getting blacklisted at DO programs for dropping your acceptance.

Hope that wasnt too scathing, just an honest portrayal of the situation from someone who is on the inside. I think a lot of DO students are embarrassed to give the full story on this board, because they dont want to give the pre allo DO haters any more ammo. But this has nothing to do with the BS crap most of those kids argue about (prestige, matching ROADS, weird prejudices I have never personally seen)...and everything to do with the pathway...and the extra BS you have to deal with.
 

BA11

It's always lupus
7+ Year Member
Mar 23, 2011
425
20
Status
Resident [Any Field]
There was, is and always will be a stigma attached to the letters "DO" as opposed to "MD". I'm not saying it's right, I'm simply saying that's the way it is.
 

willen101383

10+ Year Member
Jul 22, 2004
2,711
43
Status
Resident [Any Field]
There was, is and always will be a stigma attached to the letters "DO" as opposed to "MD". I'm not saying it's right, I'm simply saying that's the way it is.
As a premed...how do you know this? Just regurgitating what youve read on here? hmmm

That being said, I dont disagree but how much this "stigma" is amplified on SDN is ridiculous.

Ive personally never seen it and I worked in healthcare for almost 10 years before med school. Ive heard nothing but good things about DOs from the MD attendings ive worked with. Hell, my own father is a 65 year old specialist MD and he has had nothing but good things to say about his DO colleagues, and fully supports me for going to a DO school. Sure it likely exists in certain areas of the country and in certain sects of narcissistic docs, but it is not the way SDN makes it out to be.

Stigmas exist for any number of reasons. You are a black doc. You are a woman doc. You are an indian doc. You are a jewish doc. And as you gain experience in healthcare you will realize this. Just gotta accept it and keep it movin. Self confidence is key. You cant please everyone, and if someone doesnt like you...welp...they dont like you. Plenty more will.
 

Law2Doc

5K+ Member
Moderator Emeritus
10+ Year Member
Dec 20, 2004
30,981
9,887
Status
Attending Physician
I hope this is not too personal, but knowing what you know now, would you have ever went to an osteopathic med school should you not have made any allo schools? Or would you have reapplied or done something else?
I certainly would have considered it, but with the expectation that it would significantly impact my ultimate specialty options.
 

Hemorrage

Ambrose
7+ Year Member
Sep 4, 2011
1,568
235
Status
Medical Student
as a premed...how do you know this? Just regurgitating what youve read on here? Hmmm

that being said, i dont disagree but how much this "stigma" is amplified on sdn is ridiculous.

Ive personally never seen it and i worked in healthcare for almost 10 years before med school. Ive heard nothing but good things about dos from the md attendings ive worked with. Hell, my own father is a 65 year old specialist md and he has had nothing but good things to say about his do colleagues, and fully supports me for going to a do school. Sure it likely exists in certain areas of the country and in certain sects of narcissistic docs, but it is not the way sdn makes it out to be.

stigmas exist for any number of reasons. You are a black doc. You are a woman doc. You are an indian doc. You are a jewish doc. And as you gain experience in healthcare you will realize this. Just gotta accept it and keep it movin. Self confidence is key. You cant please everyone, and if someone doesnt like you...welp...they dont like you. Plenty more will.
+1
 

Law2Doc

5K+ Member
Moderator Emeritus
10+ Year Member
Dec 20, 2004
30,981
9,887
Status
Attending Physician
This idea makes sense but in reality I really dont think its true. OMM for us was a 1.5 hour lab once a week in the afternoon when nobody at any med school generally has class....and perhaps 1 1 hour lab every other week (or even less frequent). I really dont think we missed anything to insert those scant requirements into the curriculum. Maybe some schools are different, but at PCOM OMM instruction time is next to nothing thank all the gods of all the religions of the world.
Meh, my experience is that the sum of coursework plus study time is about the same for both MD and DO. I have seen no good suggestion that osteopaths spend less time in the gym or sleeping or watching TV compared to their MD counterparts, such that this is a true addition of knowledge at no cost to other medical knowledge. In fact, what happens is that this time comes from the whole. You do OMM while im going through another pass through my lecture notes for biochem. Meaning a few hours for OMM means a few less hours of studying other stuff.
 

willen101383

10+ Year Member
Jul 22, 2004
2,711
43
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Meh, my experience is that the sum of coursework plus study time is about the same for both MD and DO. I have seen no good suggestion that osteopaths spend less time in the gym or sleeping or watching TV compared to their MD counterparts, such that this is a true addition of knowledge at no cost to other medical knowledge. In fact, what happens is that this time comes from the whole. You do OMM while im going through another pass through my lecture notes for biochem. Meaning a few hours for OMM means a few less hours of studying other stuff.
I agree....i cited this in that long drown out post I made above.

No real impact on delivery of other subjects, significant impact on study time for finals in my experience. I think this argument should just be buried..because there are so many factors affecting it.

For it to affect typical study time that would assume that all med students study all day every day, which is obviously not true etc.

I will just boil it down to the fact that it is a pain in the ***** to have to deal with...especially if you arent considering using it ever again.
 

BA11

It's always lupus
7+ Year Member
Mar 23, 2011
425
20
Status
Resident [Any Field]
As a premed...how do you know this? Just regurgitating what youve read on here?
Regurgitating what I've been told by numerous MDs (and a couple DOs, including a long-time family friend) and to a lesser extent seen first hand during medical employment and volunteer work. All of them, even the DOs, said go MD if you can. The public and professional perception that comes with being a DO has the potential to hold you back in certain fields. Sometimes it was out of disrespect, sometimes it was simpyl regretful knowledge, but the opinion is always seemingly the same.

DO's are no less qualified, but a lot of MDs and various other medical professionals sometimes turn their noses down towards DOs.
 

willen101383

10+ Year Member
Jul 22, 2004
2,711
43
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Regurgitating what I've been told by numerous MDs (and a couple DOs, including a long-time family friend) and to a lesser extent seen first hand during medical employment and volunteer work. All of them, even the DOs, said go MD if you can. The public and professional perception that comes with being a DO has the potential to hold you back in certain fields. Sometimes it was out of disrespect, sometimes it was simpyl regretful knowledge, but the opinion is always seemingly the same.

DO's are no less qualified, but a lot of MDs and various other medical professionals sometimes turn their noses down towards DOs.
By reading my post above you can see that I would recommend going MD if you can. In fact, I would venture to say I am the most anti DO, DO student on this board. Someone would be a moron if they recommended going to a DO over an MD. Thats just common sense...not a stigma. People are advising you to take the path of least resistance...as they should.

Most attendings and people who no longer have some e peen contest to uphold arent going to go around talking down about DOs. Well, maybe some ivory tower types who get their jimmies off talking smack about everyone who isnt as "awesome" as they are bc they went to HYP etc. Professionals dont go running around talking smack about their colleagues based on degrees. If you are a good doc, you are a good doc...and people recognize that.

And this goes back to my previous stigma comment. Gotta have a thick skin because many people will find any reason they can not to like you. If someone wants to talk about me based on my degree...eh w/e. Thats life. Once, at a rally, some guys were talkin smack about me because I drove a WRX and not an STi. My WRX was modified and had almost as much horsepower as their STis did....but since I didnt have a factory Sti I was inferior to them. Again, who cares, when you have comparable HP its all about the meat in the drivers seat....not the letters on the car.
 
Last edited:

DrMediterranean

7+ Year Member
Aug 4, 2011
453
4
Status
Medical Student
By reading my post above you can see that I would recommend going MD if you can. In fact, I would venture to say I am the most anti DO, DO student on this board. Someone would be a moron if they recommended going to a DO over an MD. Thats just common sense...not a stigma. People are advising you to take the path of least resistance...as they should.

Most attendings and people who no longer have some e peen contest to uphold arent going to go around talking down about DOs. Well, maybe some ivory tower types who get their jimmies off talking smack about everyone who isnt as "awesome" as they are bc they went to HYP etc. Professionals dont go running around talking smack about their colleagues based on degrees. If you are a good doc, you are a good doc...and people recognize that.

And this goes back to my previous stigma comment. Gotta have a thick skin because many people will find any reason they can not to like you. If someone wants to talk about me based on my degree...eh w/e. Thats life. Once, at a rally, some guys were talkin smack about me because I drove a WRX and not an STi. My WRX was modified and had almost as much horsepower as their STis did....but since I didnt have a factory Sti I was inferior to them. Again, who cares, when you have comparable HP its all about the meat in the drivers seat....not the letters on the car.
I am packin some meat too man.
 
May 5, 2012
72
1
Status
the future of medicine is the corporate model... corporate bean counters don't care about degrees or pedigree, only if you can do a job at minimum cost... the insurance companies will accelerate this trend with obamacare...
 

circulus vitios

10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Jul 18, 2008
6,255
1,629
I am packin some meat too man.
Awesome pics. Great size. Look thick. Solid. Tight. Keep us all posted on your continued progress with any new progress pics or vid clips. Show us what you got man. Wanna see how freakin' huge, solid, thick and tight you can get. Thanks for the motivation.
 

willen101383

10+ Year Member
Jul 22, 2004
2,711
43
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Awesome pics. Great size. Look thick. Solid. Tight. Keep us all posted on your continued progress with any new progress pics or vid clips. Show us what you got man. Wanna see how freakin' huge, solid, thick and tight you can get. Thanks for the motivation.
Misc? lol
 
Jul 25, 2011
2,233
3,015
Status
Resident [Any Field]
I've yet to see good evidence that osteopaths spend more time between coursework and study time than allopaths... Any time you spend on OMM is necessarily coming from something else.
Let's look at a couple of Texas schools.

Year 1 calendar: First day of classes - Last day of classes
UT San Antonio SOM: Aug 1 - May 11
UNTHSC TCOM: Jul 22 - Jun 8

The difference? OMM, mostly.
 

sean80439

7+ Year Member
Apr 15, 2012
327
134
Status
Resident [Any Field]
That's not what I am talking about. I was referring to apa accredited programs only as non accredited programs for both Psyd and Phd exist. The curricula is different between the two sometimes but top name Psyd programs do as well as top tier Phd programs when compared on appic match rates.

The argument is analogous for several reasons as follows:

MD and PhD programs are generally more competitive with regards to admission.

There is a stigma that affects Psyd applicants when competing for apa accredited internships that is very similar to the stigma that affects DO students in residency applications.

There are low quality DO schools that drag down the reputations of other good DO programs. Much like some free standing professional psychology programs.

There are far more parallels than you might imagine. My "research" PhD program prepared me just as well as any Psyd program for clinical practice, that I can assure you, despite differences in curricula.

You bring up anecdote vs statistic. While statistics are a wonderful things for evaluating trends and making generalizations they mean nearly zero to the individual. When we get to the individual the ability to accurately predict outcomes decreases unless we have a sophisticated model that compensates for a vast number of variables that can affect final outcomes. You can tell me I have a 99% chance of beating a disease, but if I am that one percent, there is little you can do to change the outcome. Knowing that I fit the profile as that 1% person. That's tricky. Sometimes anecdotes are very useful, which is why even today we use case studies.
1. Case studies are often the weakest evidence when presenting any sort of findings.
2. PsyD programs are not equivalent in ANY way to PhD programs unless you literally want to just become a clinical psychologist. You lack any sort of coursework or research to prepare you to work in the field of psychology outside of clinical work. It's not simply you aren't as competitive for fellowships, it's simply you just won't get one over a PhD grad.
3. Many PsyD programs require students to pay, whereas most PhD programs fund students through grants.
4. Graduating from a PsyD program does not offer you even close to similar opportunities for career options; whereas DO and MD programs allow students to compete for the same residencies.
5. The individual is just that, the individual. It doesn't matter what happened to random Joe over there, when it comes down to it. Unless you can apply the data to a generalizable model, anecdotes are simply stories we like to tell people to give them hopes and dreams. If you are the 1%, congratulations, but the other 99% of people are exactly what the statistics state is going to happen. There is a reason that 99% of the people survive, and the 1% don't, and that can't be modeled because it is an anomaly.

Therefore, the argument is in fact not analogous.


Anyway, the entire point of my argument is this. Get into the best program you can get into, regardless of MD or DO, do well there, and then try and match into the residency you want to work in. Look at matching rates from schools to the type of residency you want. That will be the only thing that really matters when it comes down to your career 10 years from now.
 

willen101383

10+ Year Member
Jul 22, 2004
2,711
43
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Yeah, I read it every now and then. :laugh:
haha I went through a phase. Reading misc is sort of like posting in MD v DO threads. You type a long drawn out reply...and are about to hit enter and you are like fck this why did i just even bother to type that lol. (or you successfully hit enter on your long drawn out reply like me in this thread!!!)