MD vs MD/PhD?

[yonderson]

Hello all. Long time reader, first time poster here. Im humbly asking for advice from anybody who is willing to give it. Im a pre-med, almost done with pre-reqs and taking the MCAT soon. It's getting close to time for me to start getting my application affairs in order. I really CANNOT decide whether or not to go for MD/PhD or just the MD. I know Im still in undergrad, but this decision, unlike medical specialty decision, really is right around the corner. Here are my thoughts on the matter so far:

I really do want a research career, but I also want patient care. I have seen the 80/20 research/clinic figure floating around here, and I can say I definitely don't want that. I would like to keep it as close to 50/50 as possible.

If an MD can do fulfilling, innovative, effective research (both clinical and basic science), then I would prefer to just do the MD. I will start med school at age 26 (nontraditional), and seeing myself start my career in my early 40's is really hard. I would much prefer to keep it to mid to late 30's (I am neurobiology major right now and have participated in several research projects and would definitely like to do neurosurgery. If I did a PhD I would hope to study neuroscience or cancer biology and do work on neuro-oncology, etc. or maybe even spine/paralysis.)

So, any thoughts? A really big concern I have is whether or not there is a prejudice against MD only's doing research in academic medicine. Any comment on this? I just can't help but thinking it would be easier to become the editor-in-chief of a major neurosurgery journal with a PhD tacked on to the end of my name. But then again, I am totally ignorant. Also, comments on the future of NIH funding and such, and how that will affect MD's vs MD/PhD's? Again, I am really looking for a way to satisfy my research interests with an MD only, as that will lessen the length of schooling.

Sorry for the long post and THANKS SO MUCH.

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[pwnd]

Hello all. Long time reader, first time poster here. Im humbly asking for advice from anybody who is willing to give it. Im a pre-med, almost done with pre-reqs and taking the MCAT soon. It's getting close to time for me to start getting my application affairs in order. I really CANNOT decide whether or not to go for MD/PhD or just the MD. I know Im still in undergrad, but this decision, unlike medical specialty decision, really is right around the corner. Here are my thoughts on the matter so far:

I really do want a research career, but I also want patient care. I have seen the 80/20 research/clinic figure floating around here, and I can say I definitely don't want that. I would like to keep it as close to 50/50 as possible.

If an MD can do fulfilling, innovative, effective research (both clinical and basic science), then I would prefer to just do the MD. I will start med school at age 26 (nontraditional), and seeing myself start my career in my early 40's is really hard. I would much prefer to keep it to mid to late 30's (I am neurobiology major right now and have participated in several research projects and would definitely like to do neurosurgery. If I did a PhD I would hope to study neuroscience or cancer biology and do work on neuro-oncology, etc. or maybe even spine/paralysis.)

So, any thoughts? A really big concern I have is whether or not there is a prejudice against MD only's doing research in academic medicine. Any comment on this? I just can't help but thinking it would be easier to become the editor-in-chief of a major neurosurgery journal with a PhD tacked on to the end of my name. But then again, I am totally ignorant. Also, comments on the future of NIH funding and such, and how that will affect MD's vs MD/PhD's? Again, I am really looking for a way to satisfy my research interests with an MD only, as that will lessen the length of schooling.

Sorry for the long post and THANKS SO MUCH.

Do MD only. Research competency is measured by peer reviewed journal articles, not in doctoral degrees. It certainly doesn't hurt to have a PhD, but at the end of the day what really matters is your ability to investigate meaningful research questions productively (and get funding).

PhD training ideally allows one to learn how to do independent research and get funding. If you are motivated, you can start learning this during medical school (e.g. by doing a 1 year research stint such as HHMI or Doris Duke) and continue during residency. Academic departments love productive residents, so you will be encouraged to continue this during residency (but will struggle to find the time). After you complete your MD and neurosurgical training (4+7 years), you can then continue your research training as a junior attending by finding a research mentor.

MD/PhD programs are wonderful for supporting those of us who love being physician-scientists (or surgeon-scientists). However, if you plan to complete a surgical residency, there is a substantial latency between your independent PhD research training and your career as an attending physician scientist (in most programs, you finish your PhD, then finish the last 2 years of med school, then you'd complete a 7 year neurosurgery program -- so a 9 year gap). Beyond that, I have seen many people get stuck in their thesis work -- PhD alone can take 6 years or more even when it is part of MD-PhD training. It would be better to spend the time you focus on research training after you are more familiar with your intended field, and closer to the time when you are planning to embark on an individual research career.

 

[yonderson]

Do MD only. Research competency is measured by peer reviewed journal articles, not in doctoral degrees. It certainly doesn't hurt to have a PhD, but at the end of the day what really matters is your ability to investigate meaningful research questions productively (and get funding).

PhD training ideally allows one to learn how to do independent research and get funding. If you are motivated, you can start learning this during medical school (e.g. by doing a 1 year research stint such as HHMI or Doris Duke) and continue during residency. Academic departments love productive residents, so you will be encouraged to continue this during residency (but will struggle to find the time). After you complete your MD and neurosurgical training (4+7 years), you can then continue your research training as a junior attending by finding a research mentor.

MD/PhD programs are wonderful for supporting those of us who love being physician-scientists (or surgeon-scientists). However, if you plan to complete a surgical residency, there is a substantial latency between your independent PhD research training and your career as an attending physician scientist (in most programs, you finish your PhD, then finish the last 2 years of med school, then you'd complete a 7 year neurosurgery program -- so a 9 year gap). Beyond that, I have seen many people get stuck in their thesis work -- PhD alone can take 6 years or more even when it is part of MD-PhD training. It would be better to spend the time you focus on research training after you are more familiar with your intended field, and closer to the time when you are planning to embark on an individual research career.

Cool thanks for the info. Just curious how do you think it would work if say someone received a PhD in something like cancer biology originally wanting to do neurosurgical oncology, but ends up changing their mind during rotations and doing something like anesthesiology? Or a PhD in biomedical engineering and they end up doing psych? I mean it seems to me those specialties are unrelated to their PhDs. So do they just chalk it up to poor planning or do they find some way to gainfully use their PhD?

 

[pwnd]

Cool thanks for the info. Just curious how do you think it would work if say someone received a PhD in something like cancer biology originally wanting to do neurosurgical oncology, but ends up changing their mind during rotations and doing something like anesthesiology? Or a PhD in biomedical engineering and they end up doing psych? I mean it seems to me those specialties are unrelated to their PhDs. So do they just chalk it up to poor planning or do they find some way to gainfully use their PhD?

Happens all the time. PhD training is highly variable, but generally is preparation for how to formulate research questions and carry out an independent line of investigation. Even PhD-only researchers will not infrequently end up doing research that is much different from their thesis project.

However, the answer to your question remains: yes, MDs can (and do) conduct the same types of inquiries that MD-PhDs do. It is still a ton of work, and you still need to find research mentorship and training somehow. MD-PhD programs are a funded and organized way of obtaining that training, but there are other ways.​

 

[Coffee Machine]

I really do want a research career, but I also want patient care. I have seen the 80/20 research/clinic figure floating around here, and I can say I definitely don't want that. I would like to keep it as close to 50/50 as possible.

Don't do MD/PhD unless you want to do 80% research and 20% clinical medicine. I was actually in the exact same boat you are (you can look at my posting history-- I asked almost the exact same question). I loved research but wanted to focus mainly on medicine. I interviewed and was accepted to a couple of MD/PhD programs and ultimately decided on MD-only and I'm so glad I did.

There is SO MUCH great research being done by MD-only clinicians. You absolutely can do solid research without a PhD. Plus, if you change your mind, you can apply internally into the MD/PhD program at your school. Alternatively, there are many residency opportunities that have enfolded PhDs programs.

 

[Snivellus]

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[Aboody Toty Fruity]

Don't do MD/PhD unless you want to do 80% research and 20% clinical medicine. I was actually in the exact same boat you are (you can look at my posting history-- I asked almost the exact same question). I loved research but wanted to focus mainly on medicine. I interviewed and was accepted to a couple of MD/PhD programs and ultimately decided on MD-only and I'm so glad I did.

There is SO MUCH great research being done by MD-only clinicians. You absolutely can do solid research without a PhD. Plus, if you change your mind, you can apply internally into the MD/PhD program at your school. Alternatively, there are many residency opportunities that have enfolded PhDs programs.

Coffee Machine
You are the first person ever that mentioned to me that there are some residensies that include PhD within them. Can you or any other expert write more details on those please or refer us to a website that has these details ?

 

[Coffee Machine]

Coffee Machine
You are the first person ever that mentioned to me that there are some residensies that include PhD within them. Can you or any other expert write more details on those please or refer us to a website that has these details ?

Here are two that I found with a quick Google search:

http://star.med.ucla.edu/body.cfm?id=33

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/surgery/education/residency/GeneralSurgeryTrainProg

 

[Aboody Toty Fruity]

Here are two that I found with a quick Google search:

http://star.med.ucla.edu/body.cfm?id=33

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/surgery/education/residency/GeneralSurgeryTrainProg

Thank very much

 

[warrior209]

Currently still in undegrad, but from my understanding a ton of residencies include 2 years research in the 7-year neurosurg residency track. Usually 5+2 or 3+2+1 but there are whole years focused on developing research as a surgeon in residency programs. Hopefully this is helpful, as it seems that you want to be efficient with your years as a student/resident

 

[addy]

Currently still in undegrad, but from my understanding a ton of residencies include 2 years research in the 7-year neurosurg residency track. Usually 5+2 or 3+2+1 but there are whole years focused on developing research as a surgeon in residency programs. Hopefully this is helpful, as it seems that you want to be efficient with your years as a student/resident

Stopped reading after that.

 

[warrior209]

Stopped reading after that.

Nice. Added that tidbit so people can take my info with a grain of salt. Glad you went full ignant on that one