MDs apply to DO residencies?

[soxman]

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So due to the new unified system with ACGME and AOA, can MDs apply to DO residencies?

 

[p30doc]

Likely, but the changes don't take place till 2015. There will be a lot of details hammered out between now and then.

 

[Darkskies]

I'm surprised this is the first post on this subject in the General Residency forum. What do residents and PDs think of the new upcoming changes?

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm surprised this is the first post on this subject in the General Residency forum. What do residents and PDs think of the new upcoming changes?

Not surprising at ll that its not in this forum. Once you are already in residency, the opportunities of DO residency simply aren't relevant anymore. This is an issue that will predominate the med school level thought process.

 

[peppy]

I'm surprised this is the first post on this subject in the General Residency forum. What do residents and PDs think of the new upcoming changes?

Like Law2Doc said, those of us who are already in residency aren't going to care that much since it won't affect us. 🙂 Nonetheless, I think it will be a positive change. It would have been a good thing for me when I was applying (I had to choose between ranking a decent DO program that I felt confident I would match at vs. choosing not to rank that program to try for some more prestigious MD programs...it would have been great for me if the matches were combined back then).
I am hoping that this will help end DO stigma (it will be hard to argue that they are inferior to MDs when they are getting, literally, the exact same training held to the exact same standards as MDs are).

 

[soxman]

I'm surprised this is the first post on this subject in the General Residency forum. What do residents and PDs think of the new upcoming changes?

I actually asked this question twice on the Osteo forum but people were just rambling about other random stuff lol. I'm glad that I'm getting answers here!

 

[Darkskies]

Like Law2Doc said, those of us who are already in residency aren't going to care that much since it won't affect us. 🙂 Nonetheless, I think it will be a positive change. It would have been a good thing for me when I was applying (I had to choose between ranking a decent DO program that I felt confident I would match at vs. choosing not to rank that program to try for some more prestigious MD programs...it would have been great for me if the matches were combined back then).
I am hoping that this will help end DO stigma (it will be hard to argue that they are inferior to MDs when they are getting, literally, the exact same training held to the exact same standards as MDs are).

I agree. It's kind of making me feel better about choosing the DO route over doing the special master's program.. I do hope the stigma recedes. I thought that this thread would be relevant to the General Residency forum since people tend to post questions regarding what their chances are at various programs on this forum instead of the allopathic/osteopathic forum as far as I've seen. Also, folks like aprogramdirector don't tend to be active on the other forums..

Does anyone know what the AOA/ACGME are planning on their future discussions with regards to licensing and training that they haven't disclosed officially yet?

Does anyone think that this means the AOA has lost some power and could eventually lead to the merging of the degrees or at least streamlining the licensing process so that all physicians take one set of standardized exams(i.e.: scrapping the COMLEX or just making it an exam that only tests OMM)?

soxman, I know that the threads on the osteo/pre-osteo/pre-allo boards are many pages long now but if you read the AOA FAQ or took some more time to read through the threads you would have seen that your question was answered several times. The AOA will continue to have ongoing discussions with the ACGME over the next few years as they become integrated but as of now there are plans for allowing MDs to enter osteopathic residencies with the precondition that they will have to meet certain OMM checkpoints or prerequisites. These are still being discussed but it is likely that MDs will eventually be allowed to enter and train at osteopathic residencies. I'm hoping that if/when the latter happens it's probably not very long before the degrees merge and/or truly become equivalent nationally and internationally..

 

[Law2Doc]

I agree. It's kind of making me feel better about choosing the DO route over doing the special master's program.. I do hope the stigma recedes. I thought that this thread would be relevant to the General Residency forum since people tend to post questions regarding what their chances are at various programs on this forum instead of the allopathic/osteopathic forum as far as I've seen. Also, folks like aprogramdirector don't tend to be active on the other forums..

Does anyone know what the AOA/ACGME are planning on their future discussions with regards to licensing and training that they haven't disclosed officially yet?

Does anyone think that this means the AOA has lost some power and could eventually lead to the merging of the degrees or at least streamlining the licensing process so that all physicians take one set of standardized exams(i.e.: scrapping the COMLEX or just making it an exam that only tests OMM)?

soxman, I know that the threads on the osteo/pre-osteo/pre-allo boards are many pages long now but if you read the AOA FAQ or took some more time to read through the threads you would have seen that your question was answered several times. The AOA will continue to have ongoing discussions with the ACGME over the next few years as they become integrated but as of now there are plans for allowing MDs to enter osteopathic residencies with the precondition that they will have to meet certain OMM checkpoints or prerequisites. These are still being discussed but it is likely that MDs will eventually be allowed to enter and train at osteopathic residencies. I'm hoping that if/when the latter happens it's probably not very long before the degrees merge and/or truly become equivalent nationally and internationally..

First, the "what are my chances" threads don't belong here and routinely get moved elsewhere.

Second, yes this represents a total caving in of the AOA platform and should be regarded as a beginning of an end to that entity, maybe the degree. The whole point of osteopathy as an offshoot from allopathy is based on philosophical differences as to how doctors should be practicing medicine (not so much med school teaching), so once they concede that their training can be identical to allopathic, and governed by allopathic standards, Osteopthy represents a failed experiment. If the AOA no longer can simply accredit as many DO schools as it wants or set their own training standards, and once it has to cater to allopathic residency expectations, it's just a bunch of guys who sit in a room. I don't know if the degree will merge in name, but once the residencies are intertwined, the ACGME holds all the cards. The last vestige of osteopathy, OMM, will probably become a quick course for graduates of allo med schools who want to enter DO residencies, like ACLS/BLS you take in the summer before you start a residency, and eventually will be dropped altogether. Comlex will probably go away in favor of USMLE, as the majority of programs DOs will be applying to now will be more comfortable with USMLE.

At first it will be really bad for osteopathic grads because they will come into a system where to most allo PDs they will represent both an unknown commodity and the low end of US med school grad pedigree, based largely in lesser admissions criteria. Plus osteo will have opened competition for their own residencies, and likely will lose a lot of seats in the more competitive specialties. They will become allo's answer to filling the ever increasing demand for training more primary care folks, while at the same time giving away whatever they might have had in terms of internal ROAD and surgical specialty spots. Over time they will gain acceptance, their med schools will become more similar, and the best and brightest will attain similar competitiveness that the low end allo schools see today. The real losers in this will be offshore grads, who will see the programs that infrequently considered DO or offshore grads now encouraged to throw the DO guys a bone. Just my two cents as to how this plays out, if it does happen. But there are always snags.

 

[Darkskies]

First, the "what are my chances" threads don't belong here and routinely get moved elsewhere.

Second, yes this represents a total caving in of the AOA platform and should be regarded as a beginning of an end to that entity, maybe the degree. The whole point of osteopathy as an offshoot from allopathy is based on philosophical differences as to how doctors should be practicing medicine (not so much med school teaching), so once they concede that their training can be identical to allopathic, and governed by allopathic standards, Osteopthy represents a failed experiment. If the AOA no longer can simply accredit as many DO schools as it wants or set their own training standards, and once it has to cater to allopathic residency expectations, it's just a bunch of guys who sit in a room. I don't know if the degree will merge in name, but once the residencies are intertwined, the ACGME holds all the cards. The last vestige of osteopathy, OMM, will probably become a quick course for graduates of allo med schools who want to enter DO residencies, like ACLS/BLS you take in the summer before you start a residency, and eventually will be dropped altogether. Comlex will probably go away in favor of USMLE, as the majority of programs DOs will be applying to now will be more comfortable with USMLE.

At first it will be really bad for osteopathic grads because they will come into a system where to most allo PDs they will represent both an unknown commodity and the low end of US med school grad pedigree, based largely in lesser admissions criteria. Plus osteo will have opened competition for their own residencies, and likely will lose a lot of seats in the more competitive specialties. They will become allo's answer to filling the ever increasing demand for training more primary care folks, while at the same time giving away whatever they might have had in terms of internal ROAD and surgical specialty spots. Over time they will gain acceptance, their med schools will become more similar, and the best and brightest will attain similar competitiveness that the low end allo schools see today. The real losers in this will be offshore grads, who will see the programs that infrequently considered DO or offshore grads now encouraged to throw the DO guys a bone. Just my two cents as to how this plays out, if it does happen. But there are always snags.

Thanks for your input! I'm bitter about the fact that DOs are sometimes looked upon as low end medical school graduates since in current times it's gotten so difficult to get accepted to medical school. The admissions process is a crapshoot and I couldn't get accepted to an MD school with a 3.47 GPA and a 32 MCAT. I surely don't want to be limited to primary care if that's not what strikes my fancy during school.

I agree with much of what you're saying but there are some caveats I think you've overlooked. The AOA doesn't accredit osteopathic schools. COCA is the organization that does this and they're considered separate from the AOA and will continue to operate independently as they wish. Even though the ACGME is swallowing up the AOA, according to the FAQ osteopathic members will be elected to the new ACGME board and will oversee residency accreditation. They also seem to have stressed that AOA board certification will be strongly encouraged for all DOs but they're still working out a lot of the details. Finally, they seem to be adamant that at least the COMLEX I will be maintained and that they will ramp up their efforts to further 'educate' program directors on the merits of the COMLEX exam and how to interpret scores. I'd rather hope that osteopathic schools start awarding MDs(while still teaching OMM if they must) but it doesn't seem like they're really willing to let go just yet..

 

[Trogghunter]

i just hope that MDs will have to suffer through the COMLEX

 

[Law2Doc]

Thanks for your input! I'm bitter about the fact that DOs are sometimes looked upon as low end medical school graduates since in current times it's gotten so difficult to get accepted to medical school. The admissions process is a crapshoot and I couldn't get accepted to an MD school with a 3.47 GPA and a 32 MCAT. I surely don't want to be limited to primary care if that's not what strikes my fancy during school.

I agree with much of what you're saying but there are some caveats I think you've overlooked. The AOA doesn't accredit osteopathic schools. COCA is the organization that does this and they're considered separate from the AOA and will continue to operate independently as they wish. Even though the ACGME is swallowing up the AOA, according to the FAQ osteopathic members will be elected to the new ACGME board and will oversee residency accreditation. They also seem to have stressed that AOA board certification will be strongly encouraged for all DOs but they're still working out a lot of the details. Finally, they seem to be adamant that at least the COMLEX I will be maintained and that they will ramp up their efforts to further 'educate' program directors on the merits of the COMLEX exam and how to interpret scores. I'd rather hope that osteopathic schools start awarding MDs(while still teaching OMM if they must) but it doesn't seem like they're really willing to let go just yet..

They will ask for all these things, but as in any merger and acquisition where the target has no bargaining chips, these will be wins on paper only. Sure they will get seats on ACGME. But eg 10 seats out of 100 is like buying stock in the Green Bay Packers and pretending you have some voice in how the team is run. And you can educate PDs all you want about comlex, and encourage AOA certification all you want, but the allo PDs aren't going to buy in to something new if they don't have to, and med students are always going to do what gives them the best competitive advantage -- so this battle has been lost already. And no, "COCA" won't be able to go ahead and accredit places unhindered -- the driving force behind everything is residency slots, and so after any merger the ACGME holds all the cards and sets all the terms, regardless of what was bargained for. This is not at all a Merger of equals and the ACGME doesn't need this as bad as the AOA apparently does. I'm surprised the AOA feels so backed against the wall that it sees the need to deal itself out of existence, but this is always exactly what happens when a small operation signs a deal with a major chain, unless there is something the major business desperately needs. I can't fathom what allo needs from osteo other than market share, ergo that is likely what is being bargained for. They can likely keep the title DO and can still learn some abbreviated version of OMM, and AOA leaders can still draw a salary as minority members of ACGME boards for the short term, but I see the rest going by the wayside. It's Walmart buying up the mom and pop shops. You don't expect to see mom or pop calling the shots after that.

 

[Law2Doc]

i just hope that MDs will have to suffer through the COMLEX

The folks I know who took both seem to say USMLE was worse. But at any rate I see the DO tests going by the wayside when suddenly all DO grads will be applying predominantly for allo seats in a combined match.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

The folks I know who took both seem to say USMLE was worse. But at any rate I see the DO tests going by the wayside when suddenly all DO grads will be applying predominantly for allo seats in a combined match.

I took both some time ago. I thought the COMLEX was incredibly poorly written while the USMLE had much better (but harder) questions.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I took both some time ago. I thought the COMLEX was incredibly poorly written while the USMLE had much better (but harder) questions.

This is still the current consensus of medical students who rotate with me; all of whom say they thought the USMLE was just a "better" exam (albeit harder).

 

[docu]

When it is allowed, if an MD applies to a DO residency, are they required to take the COMLEX or can they just use their USMLE scores?

on second thought, never mind, i guess no one knows yet. just can guess.

 

[HarveyCushing]

Like Law2Doc said, those of us who are already in residency aren't going to care that much since it won't affect us. 🙂

Except it will for those interested in fellowship training.

 

[Raryn]

The folks I know who took both seem to say USMLE was worse. But at any rate I see the DO tests going by the wayside when suddenly all DO grads will be applying predominantly for allo seats in a combined match.

Except that the licensing boards will still require those with the degree "DO" to pass the COMLEX to get their license. At least until they manage to amend the law in all 50 states otherwise.

In general, I see this as a big boon for DOs applying to less competitive specialties (since they'll have a combined rank list and will be able to consider more programs without penalties) and a big penalty for DOs applying to the highly competitive specialties (ex: their 80-90 DO only orthopedic spots are now going to be in play for the MDs to apply to too).

 

[Law2Doc]

...
In general, I see this as a big boon for DOs applying to less competitive specialties (since they'll have a combined rank list and will be able to consider more programs without penalties) and a big penalty for DOs applying to the highly competitive specialties (ex: their 80-90 DO only orthopedic spots are now going to be in play for the MDs to apply to too).

Basically agree, but I think the detriment to the latter is more significant than the boon for the former.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Except that the licensing boards will still require those with the degree "DO" to pass the COMLEX to get their license. At least until they manage to amend the law in all 50 states otherwise.

This is not 100% true. USMLE is an acceptable path to licensure in certain states in lieu of COMLEX 3.