Measles

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@Jabbed (don't wanna push the quote button to save screen space).

I'm not a denier, bro.
I also can't stand the people out there who say things like: "The SHAWT is how de gubments get thurr MIND CONTROL chips in yah." I have a buddy like that who insists that "it was the jab" that gave Old Man Johnson "turbocancer", but Old Man Johnson smoked 3 packs a day since he was 12 and existed on a diet of McDonalds and bottom-shelf whiskey.

Numbers are numbers.
We all know the deaths were inflated by hospitals as a moneygrab, but even taking 1.2M deaths and 120M reported cases (say 20M went unreported, we know it's probably far more than that), that's a mortality of 1%. The actual mortality rate is probably smaller, and certainly much MUCH smaller in people without comorbidities.
 
RustedFox said:
@Jabbed (don't wanna push the quote button to save screen space).

I'm not a denier, bro.
I also can't stand the people out there who say things like: "The SHAWT is how de gubments get thurr MIND CONTROL chips in yah." I have a buddy like that who insists that "it was the jab" that gave Old Man Johnson "turbocancer", but Old Man Johnson smoked 3 packs a day since he was 12 and existed on a diet of McDonalds and bottom-shelf whiskey.

Numbers are numbers.
We all know the deaths were inflated by hospitals as a moneygrab, but even taking 1.2M deaths and 120M reported cases (say 20M went unreported, we know it's probably far more than that), that's a mortality of 1%. The actual mortality rate is probably smaller, and certainly much MUCH smaller in people without comorbidities.
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Definitely. But I would prefer our hospitals not be filled to the brim with an illness that, had people taken the vaccine, would not have been an issue.

Its like I tell my patients concerning the flu shot: it generally cuts your chances of getting the flu by around 50% which isn't great but it cuts your risk of ending up in the hospital by 90%.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
Definitely. But I would prefer our hospitals not be filled to the brim with an illness that, had people taken the vaccine, would not have been an issue.

Its like I tell my patients concerning the flu shot: it generally cuts your chances of getting the flu by around 50% which isn't great but it cuts your risk of ending up in the hospital by 90%.
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That decision has to be made by the individual, not some governing body.
 
RustedFox said:
@Jabbed (don't wanna push the quote button to save screen space).

I'm not a denier, bro.
I also can't stand the people out there who say things like: "The SHAWT is how de gubments get thurr MIND CONTROL chips in yah." I have a buddy like that who insists that "it was the jab" that gave Old Man Johnson "turbocancer", but Old Man Johnson smoked 3 packs a day since he was 12 and existed on a diet of McDonalds and bottom-shelf whiskey.

Numbers are numbers.
We all know the deaths were inflated by hospitals as a moneygrab, but even taking 1.2M deaths and 120M reported cases (say 20M went unreported, we know it's probably far more than that), that's a mortality of 1%. The actual mortality rate is probably smaller, and certainly much MUCH smaller in people without comorbidities.
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The case fatality rate for Spanish Flu was also 1%.

The case fatality rate for Ebola approaches 90%.

Which one killed more people? Which one had a larger economic impact?

“Numbers are numbers”

There were >100M cases reported in the US with a mortality of ~1,200,000, which is almost the entire population of Dallas, TX.

The economic cost of Covid-19 has been estimated at 15 trillion dollars.

Cumulative excess deaths attributed to Covid-19 exceed 25M globally.

The mortality rates for unvaccinated vs vaccinated patients were demonstrably different.

Why are we denying that a worldwide epidemic occurred 5 years ago?

united-states-rates-of-covid-19-deaths-by-vaccination-status.png

vaccination-lives-saved.png
 
@Jabbed

Again: I'm not a denier, bro.
I just said so to both you and VAHopefulDoc.
Stop repeating things.
Hard to compare Spanish Flu to Ebola, but okay.
Was the COVID vaccine a net positive in terms of reducing disease burden? I seem to think so.
What I don't like: "Get the shot or get fired."
 
It seems that many people put vaccines into an all or nothing camp. I, too, disagreed with the get your COVID shot or get fired ultimatum that some got. I think vaccines have been one of the greatest medical breakthroughs invented. That doesn't mean every single vaccine that comes out is fantastic or that everyone should get it. There doesn't seem to be a strong case that a healthy person needs to continue to get COVID boosters. My kids are all up to date on vaccinations except they have never gotten any COVID vaccinations. I guess I'd be considered an anti-vaxxer by some but it seems like a very reasonable approach.

If we truly wanted government's heavy hand to keep people out of the hospitals then we'd outlaw cigarettes, alcohol, junk food, etc. Everyone has to fall somewhere on the spectrum where they feel comfortable with respect to Big Government telling you to do something vs. individual liberties.
 
RustedFox said:
@Jabbed

Again: I'm not a denier, bro.
I just said so to both you and VAHopefulDoc.
Stop repeating things.
Hard to compare Spanish Flu to Ebola, but okay.
Was the COVID vaccine a net positive in terms of reducing disease burden? I seem to think so.
What I don't like: "Get the shot or get fired."
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I will repeat statistics every time you wash over my comment with misleading information such as the ”cure rate is 99%” and “mortality is only 1%”.

The comparison between Spanish Flu and Ebola is meant to illustrate that diseases that are devastating on a population scale are not high mortality on a case-by-case basis. It directly undermines your implication that Covid was not a deadly disease.

Unless you work at the VA, “get the shot or get fired” has nothing to do with the federal government, the deep state, or “the man”.

Regardless, this is tangential as the thread is about measles which is known to only be preventable through a highly effective vaccine. I would argue that re-hashing tired covid vaccine arguments is at best counterproductive to the current conversation and at worst unethical as a parent will invariably come across this at some point and use it as part of their “research” against vaccinating their kids against MMR.
 
xaelia said:
Please enlighten us with your informed analysis of the specific negative impact of HBV vaccination in the context of its purpose in eradicating symptomatic HBV infection – and the dire effect of "vaccines in the developing immune system".
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I didn't say the HBV vaccine was bad. But we should err on the side of caution and not give unnecessary vaccines to young children. Want to recommend vaccinating 12 year olds before the start having sex and doing drugs? Great, but the newborn infant doesn't need another immune trigger at birth.
 
Jabbed said:
I will repeat statistics every time you wash over my comment with misleading information such as the ”cure rate is 99%” and “mortality is only 1%”.
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Okay. Mortality was less than 1% and we all know that, so not sure how I'm misleading.

Jabbed said:
The comparison between Spanish Flu and Ebola is meant to illustrate that diseases that are devastating on a population scale are not high mortality on a case-by-case basis. It directly undermines your implication that Covid was not a deadly disease.
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COVID was indeed deadly to some.
Really not deadly to a lot of others.

Jabbed said:
Unless you work at the VA, “get the shot or get fired” has nothing to do with the federal government, the deep state, or “the man”.
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Flatly incorrect, but okay.
My wife had a 100% remote, work-from-home, ZOOM meeting once a week gig, and was told "get the shot or get fired because reasons" .
Same with my OtherGig.
How about that military, too?

Jabbed said:
Regardless, this is tangential as the thread is about measles which is known to only be preventable through a highly effective vaccine. I would argue that re-hashing tired covid vaccine arguments is at best counterproductive to the current conversation and at worst unethical as a parent will invariably come across this at some point and use it as part of their “research” against vaccinating their kids against MMR.
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Okay. Vaccinate against MMR. To not do so, is dumb.
 
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ScepticSkeksis said:
I didn't say the HBV vaccine was bad. But we should err on the side of caution and not give unnecessary vaccines to young children. Want to recommend vaccinating 12 year olds before the start having sex and doing drugs? Great, but the newborn infant doesn't need another immune trigger at birth.
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You realize that just being born has way more "immune triggers" than any vaccine we give them, right? The vagina isn't sterile.

As for Hep B, have you looked into why its the only vaccine we typically give before 2 months?
 
ScepticSkeksis said:
I didn't say the HBV vaccine was bad. But we should err on the side of caution and not give unnecessary vaccines to young children. Want to recommend vaccinating 12 year olds before the start having sex and doing drugs? Great, but the newborn infant doesn't need another immune trigger at birth.
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Which vaccines on the schedule, in your public health and individual risk reduction opinion, are "unnecessary"?

Please explain and cite evidence supporting the demonstrated harms associated with "the newborn infant doesn't need another immune trigger at birth".
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
So that's a no.

Go read up on this one and then report back to the class.
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Sir, yes, sir.

I’m just kidding. I’m not here to get homework assignments. I can’t read your mind so I assume it’s for those with lack of prenatal care and mothers with unknown Hep. B status.
 
JacobMcCandles said:
Sir, yes, sir.

I’m just kidding. I’m not here to get homework assignments. I can’t read your mind so I assume it’s for those with lack of prenatal care and mothers with unknown Hep. B status.
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I would think as a physician with a knowledge gap in an area you're opining about you'd want to learn more, but maybe that's just me.

The main part is that if you get infected with Hep B as an infant you have like a 90+% chance of ending up with chronic Hep B.

After age one it goes down to I think 30%.

If you're born to a Hep B positive mother and get the vaccine at birth you decrease your risk of a Hep B infection by around 90%.

The vaccine has been on the vaccine schedule since 1991/2. This isn't anything new or different. Since it's introduction we went from around 15-20k children getting diagnosed with Hep B per year to essentially zero (among children born in the US). In addition, since that vaccine is fairly old we've got long term safety data in spades.

That said, while I fully support this vaccine at birth I don't mind doing the first dose at 2 months assuming the mother had good prenatal care.
 
ScepticSkeksis said:
I didn't say the HBV vaccine was bad. But we should err on the side of caution and not give unnecessary vaccines to young children. Want to recommend vaccinating 12 year olds before the start having sex and doing drugs? Great, but the newborn infant doesn't need another immune trigger at birth.
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As i suspected you have no idea on how many infants and children contract hep B without having sex or doing drugs. Meanwhile the people that do have a clue about that sort of transmission did the research and discovered infant vaccination will save many more than might be harmed by getting the vaccine.

Why should I vaccinate my newborn child if I know that I am not infected with hepatitis B virus?​

Before the hepatitis B vaccine, every year in the United States about 18,000 children were infected with hepatitis B virus by the time they were 10 years old. This statistic is especially important because people are much more likely to develop liver cancer or cirrhosis if they are infected early in life, rather than later in life (most people are infected with hepatitis B virus when they are adolescents and young adults).

About 9,000 of the 18,000 children infected in the first 10 years of life caught the virus from their mother during birth. However, many young children didn't catch the disease from their mother. They caught it from either another family member or someone else who came in contact with the child. Because hepatitis B can be transmitted by relatively casual contact with items contaminated with the blood of an infected person, and because many people who are infected with hepatitis B virus don't know that they have it, it is virtually impossible to be "careful enough" to avoid this infection.
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VA Hopeful Dr said:
I would think as a physician with a knowledge gap in an area you're opining about you'd want to learn more, but maybe that's just me.

The main part is that if you get infected with Hep B as an infant you have like a 90+% chance of ending up with chronic Hep B.

After age one it goes down to I think 30%.

If you're born to a Hep B positive mother and get the vaccine at birth you decrease your risk of a Hep B infection by around 90%.

The vaccine has been on the vaccine schedule since 1991/2. This isn't anything new or different. Since it's introduction we went from around 15-20k children getting diagnosed with Hep B per year to essentially zero (among children born in the US). In addition, since that vaccine is fairly old we've got long term safety data in spades.

That said, while I fully support this vaccine at birth I don't mind doing the first dose at 2 months assuming the mother had good prenatal care.
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Also need to ensure anyone the newborn would be exposed to is also hep B negative. I don't know that any routine prenatal care does testing on all household members and potential caregivers.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
I would think as a physician with a knowledge gap in an area you're opining about you'd want to learn more, but maybe that's just me.

The main part is that if you get infected with Hep B as an infant you have like a 90+% chance of ending up with chronic Hep B.

After age one it goes down to I think 30%.

If you're born to a Hep B positive mother and get the vaccine at birth you decrease your risk of a Hep B infection by around 90%.

The vaccine has been on the vaccine schedule since 1991/2. This isn't anything new or different. Since it's introduction we went from around 15-20k children getting diagnosed with Hep B per year to essentially zero (among children born in the US). In addition, since that vaccine is fairly old we've got long term safety data in spades.

That said, while I fully support this vaccine at birth I don't mind doing the first dose at 2 months assuming the mother had good prenatal care.
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Ha…that I’m “opining about”? Have I mentioned Hep B vaccine in this thread? I’m not 100% convinced every newborn needs it straight out of the womb but I at least understand the rational about it. Anywho, I’ll stop opining about something I’ve yet to mention here.
 
JacobMcCandles said:
Ha…that I’m “opining about”? Have I mentioned Hep B vaccine in this thread? I’m not 100% convinced every newborn needs it straight out of the womb but I at least understand the rational about it. Anywho, I’ll stop opining about something I’ve yet to mention here.
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I mean, you responded to my post about Hep B, so if you want to be pedantic (which admittedly I would 100% support) you didn't actually mention it directly but you did respond to a part of a post that was talking solely about Hep B...
 
dpmd said:
Also need to ensure anyone the newborn would be exposed to is also hep B negative. I don't know that any routine prenatal care does testing on all household members and potential caregivers.
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Yeah pre-Vaccine half of kids who caught it under age 10 got the infection from non-mom-at-birth.

But that means half did.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
I mean, you responded to my post about Hep B, so if you want to be pedantic (which admittedly I would 100% support) you didn't actually mention it directly but you did respond to a part of a post that was talking solely about Hep B...
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I responded with a joke but carry on.
 
The physician community is often poorly receptive to patients, and even other physicians, that have some concerns regarding vaccines. They don’t always respond in a collaborative manner that respects patient autonomy. The vast majority of people aren’t universal ‘anti-vaxxers.’ ‘Healthy’ individuals may not want to live their lives dependent upon taking a daily drug or receiving an annual immunization. I’m referring more so to annual influenza immunizations or COVID-19 boosters, not childhood immunizations. Western medicine isn’t a universal approach. That being said, I recognize you can’t always just eat healthily and exercise your way to perfect health. People do also care about those around them, but also understand that Grandma is going to die someday from something. Respecting difference of opinion is important.

My aside is that I personally also have separate concerns regarding beating the evolutionary abilities of viral disease. There is some utility in population management in a distressed world with a lack of resources. We can’t keep everyone alive or spend infinite resources to do so. Not all may agree with my opinion. That’s perfectly okay. Our health care system is heading for a reckoning though with our approach. This is mostly unrelated to the vaccine discussion, although does overlap regarding the constant desire to treat or prevent something with a medication or immunization.

I don’t think influenza or COVID-19 immunizations are equivalent in efficacy or of the same importance to the MMR or HBV immunizations. However, they are important for the discussion because it relates to adoption by the general public. Several on this forum have alluded to that point.

I think a little levity is always helpful and something we often incorporate in the ED setting amidst constantly dealing with difficult discussions. Do you have $40? I question the utility of urgent care medicine, but there is a point to be made regarding those with diplomas on the wall.

 
Mount Asclepius said:
The physician community is often poorly receptive to patients, and even other physicians, that have some concerns regarding vaccines. They don’t always respond in a collaborative manner that respects patient autonomy. The vast majority of people aren’t universal ‘anti-vaxxers.’ ‘Healthy’ individuals may not want to live their lives dependent upon taking a daily drug or receiving an annual immunization. I’m referring more so to annual influenza immunizations or COVID-19 boosters, not childhood immunizations. Western medicine isn’t a universal approach. That being said, I recognize you can’t always just eat healthily and exercise your way to perfect health. People do also care about those around them, but also understand that Grandma is going to die someday from something. Respecting difference of opinion is important.

My aside is that I personally also have separate concerns regarding beating the evolutionary abilities of viral disease. There is some utility in population management in a distressed world with a lack of resources. We can’t keep everyone alive or spend infinite resources to do so. Not all may agree with my opinion. That’s perfectly okay. Our health care system is heading for a reckoning though with our approach. This is mostly unrelated to the vaccine discussion, although does overlap regarding the constant desire to treat or prevent something with a medication or immunization.

I don’t think influenza or COVID-19 immunizations are equivalent in efficacy or of the same importance to the MMR or HBV immunizations. However, they are important for the discussion because it relates to adoption by the general public. Several on this forum have alluded to that point.

I think a little levity is always helpful and something we often incorporate in the ED setting amidst constantly dealing with difficult discussions. Do you have $40? I question the utility of urgent care medicine, but there is a point to be made regarding those with diplomas on the wall.

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Sure, hence my original contribution to this thread:

VA Hopeful Dr said:
Depends on the vaccine. Stuff for adults? I don't give a damn anymore.

But if you are a doctor who takes care of kids on a regular basis and you discourage parents from getting the routine childhood vaccines, that's a problem.
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RustedFox said:
COVID had a 99%+ recovery rate.
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To be fair, the number of deaths was staggering early on despite the low mortality rate due to high case numbers.

Either way, the mortality rate was quite high in the elderly. 17% in those above 75 at one point. That's a serious mortality rate.

Overall, it was the 3rd leading cause of death in the United States in 2022. That sounds like a big deal.
 
KGflyboy said:
To be fair, the number of deaths was staggering early on despite the low mortality rate due to high case numbers.

Either way, the mortality rate was quite high in the elderly. 17% in those above 75 at one point. That's a serious mortality rate.

Overall, it was the 3rd leading cause of death in the United States in 2022. That sounds like a big deal.
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Sure those sound bad, but I think what the vaccine skeptics would like to do is conflate the less severe post OG/delta strains when nobody was getting fired for refusing a booster with the world wrecker that was the initial COVID pandemic where the vaccines conferred 70% immunity against INFECTION. I mean surely it's ok to talk about two specific features at two completely separate time points and mash them together to equal "guv'ent o'reach".
 
KGflyboy said:
To be fair, the number of deaths was staggering early on despite the low mortality rate due to high case numbers.

Either way, the mortality rate was quite high in the elderly. 17% in those above 75 at one point. That's a serious mortality rate.

Overall, it was the 3rd leading cause of death in the United States in 2022. That sounds like a big deal.
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Freed up a bunch of dialysis chairs

...just saying
 
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