Med-Derm programs

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vicinihil

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What do you guys think of this as a potential track? I really enjoyed my Medicine rotation (though uncertain about my grade yet :scared: :xf: :luck:) and I think this will make ME a better diagnostician and dermatologist. I know most Dermatologist did not go through this track but I think I would find the extra Medicine year useful.

Is it much more competitive to get into than just Derm programs? Will it be frowned upon to apply to both? Thanks for the advice!

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It's totally ok to apply to both. You won't be 'blackballed' by derm programs if you apply to med/derm programs.

However, the med/derm programs aren't necessarily meant to be an alternate route into derm. They seem to be set up to train those of us who are interested in learning how to manage difficult patients who have chronic diseases such like psoriasis, rheum conditions,CTCL, etc.

Basically if you have an academic interest in those types of diseases, go for it. However, keep in mind that you probably won't stay double boarded your whole life, but it's a good way to train if one wants to handle certain patients.
 
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med-derm programs are the biggest example of training bloat in the world. If you want to manage these complex patients, learn to do it, and then do it. another year of medicine is not at all necessary, and is in my opinion, a complete waste of time. really, you need a year of medicine to figure out cyclosporine or MTX? if that's the case, you're too dumb for derm.
 
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med-derm programs are the biggest example of training bloat in the world. If you want to manage these complex patients, learn to do it, and then do it. another year of medicine is not at all necessary, and is in my opinion, a complete waste of time. really, you need a year of medicine to figure out cyclosporine or MTX? if that's the case, you're too dumb for derm.

This is a typical response from a traditionally-trained dermatologist. I wouldn't let it slow you down. The attitude among faculty members at med-derm programs (including traditional derm faculty) is much different. Just really give a lot of thought to your personal statement when it comes time to write one. If you can really articulate why you want to train in both, then you may be a good candidate. Just understand that there are only probably about 15 slots (max) in the country, so don't be let down if it doesn't work out.
 
Thanks for all the useful responses! I didn't know these programs existed until recently and I think my interests really fit the bill of these programs. I will apply to both and see where my cards fall.

How are the attitude of Med-Derm faculty members different from those of traditional dermatologists? Do these dual trained Dermatologists typically work in hospitals or most still choose to run their own clinics and go into traditional Derm fellowships like Moh's? Appreciate any and all feedback!
 
I suppose my opinion is common among traditionally trained dermatologists (IE the overwhelming majority).

I'm also a poster child for training bloat having done an MD/Phd and no longer being in a position where i'm making use of my PhD (like about 70% of MSTP graduates who end up doing either one or the other?). There are all sorts of reasons to do dual this, multi-board this, 3 fellowships, derms, mohs, laser dermpath quadruple boarded superstud...... It all looks good in paper, but at the end of the day, you usually have to reduce the number of hats you wear and be VERY good in your area instead of kinda good at a bunch of things.

So i'm still perplexed at the rationale for med-derm.

1. Do you do med-derm in order to treat systemic diseases with cutaneous manifestations?

Like what? Just how would you see that play out. for me, its simple. I work in a multispecialty tertiary referral center with a 500+ mile service radius. I have ready access to almost any specialist that I can think of.

Moreover, I strongly believe in multidisciplinary teams for complex medical conditions, and it is the model I would personally pursue if i were the patient.

If I have a patient with Crohn's with cutaneous manifestations, I want an Internist managing their general medical conditions, preventative care, and overall state; I can manage their skin, and I would have a Gastroenterologist for their crohn's. Of that team, I wouldn't personally let a Med-Derm trained individual replace anyone except the dermatologist.

Similarly, take a patient with systemic lupus or systemic PAN who has cutaneous disease. They need a Rheumatologist. Similarly, I wouldn't personally let a Med-Derm trained individual take replace anyone except the dermatologist.

In my environment, where I have ready access to highly trained subspecialists, and we are adept at coordination of care, I couldn't imagine someone with this training doing anything but dermatology. Boarding in Medicine ***might*** make you better at managing systemic lupus or crohns than a dermatologist, but i think that it is incredibly unlikely that you will be better than my rheumatologist (and not in a million years will be better than the group of GI docs that I work with). Gonna whip out a colonscope for that Crohns patient, or are you going to manage their "medical-crohns" and send them to an actual GI for their scope?

2. You want to do some general medicine in addition to derm?

Do you really want to manage synthroid and lipitor? Ok. Won't argue with your desire to do that. Can't fathom why you would want to do that. Most dermatologists specifically want to avoid that, and maybe that is a reflection of my "traditional" training.

3. Does med-derm make you a better medical dermatologist? Maybe. Probably impossible to prove. I can assure you that I and my colleagues from residency saw plenty of medical derm and those of us who have chosen to keep doing medical derm are more than willing to go toe-to-toe with you any day of the week on our ability and competence to manage these patients. Perhaps doing some medicine will make you feel more confident, and I can't argue with that, but whether it makes you more competent is an entirely different matter.

Having spent a LOT of extra time on training, I certainly have a bias toward dissuading others from adding additional years to their training. PERHAPS, I am a better doctor because i also went o graduate school. I don't know, really. However, even in the unlikely circumstance that I am, i don't really think it was worth the time I spent.

To be clear, I think that the overall trend in medicine toward training that extends into the 30's and for some 40's is completely unfounded. Even dermatology is managing to find a way to make it longer, and longer and longer. Everyone seems to have to do some lame fellowship before they can match. then if you want to see kids you have to put in a few extra years. and if you want to cut, you need a year (or more) because somehow programs can't find a way to teach that in 3 years.

Rather than advocate for additional yearsof training to be a patho-cardio-laser-botoxirrific-pulmono-neurocutanealdermatoligist, I would advocate to turning dermatology programs into 1+2+1. One year prelim of medicine, peds or TY. 2 years of general dermatology. 1 year of MOHS, Dermpath, Med derm, or Peds derm (if you did peds internship), or advanced clinical derm (or some other garbage can term for people going into community practice who are still going to blend). Certify in derm and your chosen sub-specialty. Done.
 
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I completely hear what you are saying and I agree, there is a lot of training bloat but I don't think it is ALL in vain. I think a lot of it depends if you want to be in private practice or part of a major academic center. Though a multidisciplinary model is certainly the way to go, I'm not sure if doing a Med-Derm will relinquish you to managing cholesterol or thyroid problems. It MAY make you more acute to the underlying medical problem that a patient with a particular cutaneous manifestation may not know existed. This is perhaps more important in an academic setting where they see a higher diversity of unusual cases and non-classical presentations of diseases.

I may be wrong because I'm speaking form a naive MS3 perspective but that's what I've been led to believe. I'm open to disapproving scathing commentary. I haven't done an extra year of fellowship nor have a PhD. Not bloating yet with training overload!
 
I think that from an applicant's perspective, the only advantage of med derm programs is that if you are willing to do them, that opens up more potential spots for you and increases your likelihood of matching.

I trained with and have trained many derms who did medicine or peds residencies prior to doing derm. The vast majority of them would tell you that their residency training did not make them a better dermatologist in any way. They will also all tell you that after a few years of dermatology practice, they would not function well as an internist or pediatrician.

I know it sounds like if you have better training in internal medicine, you should be a better medical dermatologist. And I think a lot of peoople actually believe that. But in my experience it is simply untrue.

Furthermore, if we set aside financial considerations, the opportunity cost of doing a med-derm residency is one year of derm practice and the "education" you get from that is far better and more useful. Assume you had two identical med students (X and Y). X does a traditional 4 year program, and Y does a 5 year med-derm program. Both start training at the same time and go into private practice immediately upon graduation.

At year 5, X would have one year of experience and would absolutely be a better medical dermatologist than Y. Assuming similar practices, X would continue to be a better dermatologst than Y for about 3-5 years, when the differential in experience no longer matters. Once they get to the point that they are equally good, any effect of doing a medicine residency is so attenuated that I think that Y will never overtake X in terms of competence. The best he will do is be X's equal.
 
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I realize that several posters have discussed the pros and cons of med/derm, but I was hoping someone who is specifically in a med/derm program or someone who is training at an institution with a med/derm program would share their thoughts on the pros and cons of the combined track.
 
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