Med School after PhD & Postdoc

[BlackBox]

I've looked around for a thread that discusses people who have gone to medical school following a PhD, but it seems to be lacking. Obviously this isn't a popular choice, but it is happening. There is an interesting Science article that discusses research PhDs going into medical school:

http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.or...s_issues/articles/2013_07_30/caredit.a1300155

In light of this, I thought I would take the time to tell my story- if for no other reason than to attract people to this thread who have performed a google search along the lines of: MD after PhD...

About me:

32YO white male (I hear it matters)

Education:
2003 BS Biology (decent school)
2003 BS Chemistry (same decent school)
2010 PhD Bacteriology (different decent school)
2010-current Postdoctoral Fellow (Ivy)

GPAs:
Undergraduate 3.4 (essentially the same for science and cumulative)
Graduate 3.7 (including one medical course)

ECs:
~150hrs shadowing different specialties
small business owner
some volunteering (kinda weak here)
2 NIH research grants
several publications / conferences / posters / awards

Letters:
Well respected professor (my mentor)
High-ranking academic physician
Well respected clinician

MCAT(s):
4/27/13
PS-8
VR-7
BS-12

7/13/13
I'll know tomorrow

Obviously my first MCAT score is weak (it was actually 7pts below my AAMC average!). I suspect it was a combination of nerves and overthinking. The overthinking part is a particularly difficult issue for me. I can always come up with reasons why any answer can be correct- a mindset from the critical thinking associated with a PhD.

I have applied to 28 (!) MD schools (7/21, awaiting verification). I just don't have a good sense of what number would be good for me. I'll list the schools in a few days.

I should also point out that I am not trying to escape science. I have a solid publication record, grants, and a good amount of leadership abilities. I could continue along a basic research path (and I still will to some extent), but I really want the joy that comes with working with, and helping patients. I'm not concerned about how cliché that sounds- it's the truth 🙂 I also think that given my age, a career in general med is best...

I also have a very interesting personal/educational history that I will discuss later (after/if I get accepted to a school).

Again, my point in posting this thread is to just get people to talk about this rather extreme educational pathway. I know I'm not alone.

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[cabinbuilder]

You need to talk with Q of Quimica. I believe she did the same path.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Here's a sticky post by QofQuimica with links to lots of other posts on the PhD to MD issue. Definitely check it out, there are actually quite a few posts here.


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=6420517&postcount=6


The Physician Scientist forum has some newer posts on the subject as well:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=32

 

[QofQuimica]

The only way that the PhD-to-MD/DO pathway is "extreme" is that it is extremely common. Probably every med school in the country has a few students who come in with PhDs. I don't know what terms you used to search, but there are dozens, maybe hundreds, of SDN threads about this. Click on the links that wholeheartedly provided, and that will be a good start. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask. I'm a PhD/MD in my last year of residency. There are others around as well who pop in from time to time. Best of luck with your apps.

 

[BlackBox]

I'm going pretty much the same path.
I have a Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering, with a short-term post-doc experience.

My uGPA is similar to yours, but I have a lower grad GPA - I spent all my energy on research, not on classwork. I maintained my GPA just high enough to graduate. Finished Ph.D. in 3.5 years. 32 MCAT.

I did some post-bac work to complete pre-req courses for a while and sent 43 MD primaries (7/15 verified). 38 secondaries completed.
What's annoying here is that.. I have received no interview invitations yet. Fingers crossed tightly.
I should have sent DO apps as well.. ugh

We're in the same boat... Good luck to you.
I hope to hear good news from you, too.

We look to be in a similar boat, yet yours looks like a better model. A 32 MCAT looks much better than a 27 (hopefully my retake improved), and thanks to all the helpful links posted in this thread (that I honestly should have found myself), Grad GPAs may not be weighed so heavily. You're also verified! That's a bonus since the wait time has increased to 8 weeks!!! It sounds like you probably applied broadly- I can't see how completing 38 2nds yields 0 interviews. In short, I like your odds.

I did apply to 3 DO schools in addition to the 28 allopathic programs, so with any luck I should one day soon be able to see patients.

Good luck to you too and I'll keep you posted!

 

[BlackBox]

The only way that the PhD-to-MD/DO pathway is "extreme" is that it is extremely common. Probably every med school in the country has a few students who come in with PhDs. I don't know what terms you used to search, but there are dozens, maybe hundreds, of SDN threads about this. Click on the links that wholeheartedly provided, and that will be a good start. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask. I'm a PhD/MD in my last year of residency. There are others around as well who pop in from time to time. Best of luck with your apps.

Very, very helpful links, and I should have found this on my own.

To clarify, I could find some who have gone this route ("OldPreMeds.com"). I suppose the answers I was seeking were already on SDN (that almost sounds theological!).

I was calling it "extreme" in part because it is rare go this far down the academic research path prior to jumping-course and also b/c a traditional PhD does not always take the same amount of time as when it is initially combined with the MD (at least from my experiences at UPenn). This is not a knock on the MD/PhD program.

Thanks again and I'll keep everyone posted! 🙂

 

[Goro]

It does happen, but seems to be rare at my school. I can only think of 2, maybe 3 PhDs who have been my students.

I've looked around for a thread that discusses people who have gone to medical school following a PhD, but it seems to be lacking. Obviously this isn't a popular choice, but it is happening. There is an interesting Science article that discusses research PhDs going into medical school:

http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.or...s_issues/articles/2013_07_30/caredit.a1300155

In light of this, I thought I would take the time to tell my story- if for no other reason than to attract people to this thread who have performed a google search along the lines of: MD after PhD...

About me:

32YO white male (I hear it matters)

Education:
2003 BS Biology (decent school)
2003 BS Chemistry (same decent school)
2010 PhD Bacteriology (different decent school)
2010-current Postdoctoral Fellow (Ivy)

GPAs:
Undergraduate 3.4 (essentially the same for science and cumulative)
Graduate 3.7 (including one medical course)

ECs:
~150hrs shadowing different specialties
small business owner
some volunteering (kinda weak here)
2 NIH research grants
several publications / conferences / posters / awards

Letters:
Well respected professor (my mentor)
High-ranking academic physician
Well respected clinician

MCAT(s):
4/27/13
PS-8
VR-7
BS-12

7/13/13
I'll know tomorrow

Obviously my first MCAT score is weak (it was actually 7pts below my AAMC average!). I suspect it was a combination of nerves and overthinking. The overthinking part is a particularly difficult issue for me. I can always come up with reasons why any answer can be correct- a mindset from the critical thinking associated with a PhD.

I have applied to 28 (!) MD schools (7/21, awaiting verification). I just don't have a good sense of what number would be good for me. I'll list the schools in a few days.

I should also point out that I am not trying to escape science. I have a solid publication record, grants, and a good amount of leadership abilities. I could continue along a basic research path (and I still will to some extent), but I really want the joy that comes with working with, and helping patients. I'm not concerned about how cliché that sounds- it's the truth 🙂 I also think that given my age, a career in general med is best...

I also have a very interesting personal/educational history that I will discuss later (after/if I get accepted to a school).

Again, my point in posting this thread is to just get people to talk about this rather extreme educational pathway. I know I'm not alone.

 

[Rouelle]

I followed a somewhat parallel path to pharmacy school. I did a PhD (organic chemistry, decent state school with up-and-coming mentor) and post-doc (good school, well-known mentor). After teaching for a couple years I decided to go back and am half-way through the PharmD program.

What I had at application time included:

-solid GPA (undergrad and grad)
-good publication record including first author papers from each of undergrad, grad, postdoc, and independent careers
-solid PCAT
-letters from mentors and 2 former colleagues (1 currently a faculty member and 1 currently an NIH scientist)

What I lacked included:

-any kind of pharmacy experience whatsoever
-volunteering
-any recent and relevant ECs

Due to geographic constraints I applied to one school only (this is typically not advisable for PharmD programs) and got in on my first attempt.

It seems the PhD --> PharmD route may be less common than the PhD --> MD route. I am currently the only PhD in any of the 4 years at my program, although there are several PharmDs currently in the PhD program at my school of pharmacy and several of my classmates do have Master's degrees. That said, there are a couple PharmD/PhD practitioners who sometimes post in the pharmacy forums.

 

[Scottish Chap]

I've looked around for a thread that discusses people who have gone to medical school following a PhD, but it seems to be lacking. Obviously this isn't a popular choice, but it is happening. There is an interesting Science article that discusses research PhDs going into medical school:

http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.or...s_issues/articles/2013_07_30/caredit.a1300155

In light of this, I thought I would take the time to tell my story- if for no other reason than to attract people to this thread who have performed a google search along the lines of: MD after PhD...

About me:

32YO white male (I hear it matters)

Education:
2003 BS Biology (decent school)
2003 BS Chemistry (same decent school)
2010 PhD Bacteriology (different decent school)
2010-current Postdoctoral Fellow (Ivy)

GPAs:
Undergraduate 3.4 (essentially the same for science and cumulative)
Graduate 3.7 (including one medical course)

ECs:
~150hrs shadowing different specialties
small business owner
some volunteering (kinda weak here)
2 NIH research grants
several publications / conferences / posters / awards

Letters:
Well respected professor (my mentor)
High-ranking academic physician
Well respected clinician

MCAT(s):
4/27/13
PS-8
VR-7
BS-12

7/13/13
I'll know tomorrow

Obviously my first MCAT score is weak (it was actually 7pts below my AAMC average!). I suspect it was a combination of nerves and overthinking. The overthinking part is a particularly difficult issue for me. I can always come up with reasons why any answer can be correct- a mindset from the critical thinking associated with a PhD.

I have applied to 28 (!) MD schools (7/21, awaiting verification). I just don't have a good sense of what number would be good for me. I'll list the schools in a few days.

I should also point out that I am not trying to escape science. I have a solid publication record, grants, and a good amount of leadership abilities. I could continue along a basic research path (and I still will to some extent), but I really want the joy that comes with working with, and helping patients. I'm not concerned about how cliché that sounds- it's the truth 🙂 I also think that given my age, a career in general med is best...

I also have a very interesting personal/educational history that I will discuss later (after/if I get accepted to a school).

Again, my point in posting this thread is to just get people to talk about this rather extreme educational pathway. I know I'm not alone.

Agree with the others - every medical school class has at least a couple of PhDs these days. It's not uncommon. A change of heart (regarding career trajectory) is closer to the truth for most of them, but you have to make your application look as consistent with your past endeavors as possible. I get the impression from your (strong) post that you know this.

I went to medical school after a postdoc. I just finished a clinical fellowship (after residency). I see patients and do bench research. It's a long and expensive road; keep the latter in mind. Now that loans can't be deferred and most residents have to forbear, ask yourself if you realistically want to do this with your heart set on an academic career. If you do, you may pay off those loans for the rest of your natural life if you stay in academia. Private practice (at least for now) is more practical for clearing loans.

FWIW, I applied to 9 medical schools and won three interviews - two in the U.S. and one in Canada. I attended the U.S. interviews and was accepted to both. Apply broadly. Good luck.

 

[Petypet]

I am another one that has gone down this route. PhD in biochemistry and post-doc in ped oncology. I think this process, while arduous, will only become more common as time passes. Between the diminishing compensation for phd scientists, increasing competition for both academic/industrial positions, and the job turnover makes medicine much more appealing.

For me, the grass always seemed greener, especially because the job market for someone in my field was daunting, low paying, and would take me away from my family. Thusfar, med school has been pretty easy, and actually frankly boring, as its just read and regurgitate with little intellectual demands (which was my favorite thing). This led me to finding some research as a med student, and I think I am finding a speciality and a niche that I really enjoy.

It seems like a lot of people that go through this @ the end, say its not worth it, a lot of work, debt, etc. Coming in, I did not see this (but was told this), and I was naive, thinking omg I'm helping people., but I am beginning to see how people develop these feelings. Even after just taking med school classes, I am tired of dealing with people.

for me thus far, still in the beginning stages of being a physician I can make a pro/con list
Pro:
-I am almost 100% certain I will have a job in an area that I enjoy
-I have a good perspective of life and don't get too stressed over things. Huge advantage as some kids really freak out over simple crap
-I am happy not having to move to Timbuktu at some liberal arts college to teach or to work for the man

Con:
-I dislike dealing with patients (leading to a pro, I think I like surgery and get to deal with patients asleep!)
-No income (having to put a slight holding pattern on starting a family, although I did get married this summer)
-Proverbial 1 step back for 2 forward. I am still in the 1 step back.
-Nontraditional, thus a little out of tune with most of my classmates. Its fine because I have family and friends, but can make for long days.


My biggest piece of advice, which is counterintuitive for a non-trad, is slow down. Get the MCAT you need to get into a school that will make this opportunity worth it.

 

[BlackBox]

Great broad-reaching advice from all. It's nice to get so many perspectives.

Just got my MCAT score:

9/11/11 31
V/P/B

Science can be quite scary considering the huge cuts the NIH is being forced to make. This has pushed the pay-line of research grants to a whole new level. As far as debt:income is concerned, I have done a few time value of money calculations. If I assume the best case scenario with a PhD (tenure position with a good base salary, NIH R01, etc...) compared to the "worst" case as an MD (general medicine, academic appointment, debt, etc.), it's about even. However, if I'm really true to what I want (patient responsibilities, security, etc), MD wins out.

I'm hoping to still find outlets for my creativity- side research in the summers, etc....

Thanks again for all the advice!

 

[Amygdarya]

I'll chime in.
I came to the US with a BS in Chemistry from a different country (a top school in my country with a strong science department, not that anybody in the US cares about that), did a PhD in Microbiology and Immunology at a US medical school, did a short postdoc in microbiology at a different (and better) US medical school, and for the past year and half I've been doing clinical research in infectious diseases at the same school I did my postdoc. I have a fairly good amount of publications, presentations, leadership and teaching/mentoring experience for someone in this kind of career, however, my prospects of getting a grant or a fellowship were severely limited by the fact that I was a foreigner, so I only received some institutional awards. I got my green card (based on my research work) less than a year ago.

Since I got my undergraduate degree from a non-US non-Canadian school, I ended up taking more than 90 US undergraduate credits in 2 years (while working full time) with 3.96 cGPA (one really stupid B, long story)/ 4.0 sGPA. Both my foreign undergrad GPA and my US PhD GPA are around 3.5 - hey, I didn't know I would be applying to US medical schools 🙂, plus, I, too, focused on my research in grad school, which is supported by multiple publications that resulted from several different projects I worked on.

I think that 2 things are important for someone in our position: 1) decent clinical exposure (to show that we know what we're getting ourselves into, and that we're getting into that not just because we're disillusioned with our research careers), and 2) solid MCAT.
For the first item, I've been volunteering at an ER for over 4 years, shadowed some ID and primary care docs and I'm currently working in clinical research, which allows for many interactions with our patients and their doctors. I have also volunteered at community health/outreach events.
For the second item, I feel your pain 🙂 I got a 30 on my first MCAT, which is totally my fault: I didn't really prepare for it and I was uncharacteristically arrogant (glanced through the topics - oh, OK, I know this! - took an AAMC practice test and got a 35 - OK, I can live with that!). Now, guys, I think that a 30 is a decent score for some schools and some people are understandably ecstatic to get a 30, but I think that expectations for people with PhDs may be higher. So the second time I actually prepared for the test 🙂 and got a 38 - now there is a score I can live with. (I may still have to explain the low first score at the interviews, hope it will not be held against me...)

I'm applying this cycle (hopefully for the first and only time). I think my stats are OK and ECs are solid, and my biggest weakness is my foreign undergrad and a lack of US undergrad degree (I think I would have a much better chance if I had an undergrad degree from a decent US school). By now, I have completed 17 applications and I'm still working on 5-7 (I'm having doubts about submitting secondaries to 2 of the schools I sent my primaries to). I'm kind of slow with my secondary essays: my work keeps me busy even on weekends, plus, I'm taking forever to polish every single essay because I'm not a native English speaker and feel very insecure about my writing skills. Applications to my top choices and rolling admission schools were completed first.
Most of the schools I'm applying to are top 25. It's not that I care that much about prestige, but I really want to go into academic medicine, so I'm mostly interested in strong research schools. I know they are difficult to get into, but, paradoxically, they may also be the most likely to accept me because they're more flexible about foreign undergrads etc. We'll see. So far, I have 1 rejection (UofChicago, definite reach - I think my weakness was the paucity of non-medical community volunteering, and the fact that I had an economically disadvantaged background did not quality me for the socially conscious UofC 🙂; plus, I'm a foreigner but not an URM) and 2 interview invitations (UofPittsburgh and UTSW), both of which I'm very happy about. And it's only the beginning of the cycle, so I'm really hopeful 🙂
Scheduling interviews is kind of a pain with my current job, but my colleagues have been very supportive and understanding. Now I just need to do well at those interviews...

 

[Amygdarya]

Science can be quite scary considering the huge cuts the NIH is being forced to make.

Yeah, NIH funding for a major project in our research unit was recently cut, so that 6 out of 13 people lost their jobs - but the amount of work hasn't changed! I'm really happy to have this job, even though I'm literally working for 2 people now.

 

[QofQuimica]

Very, very helpful links, and I should have found this on my own.

To clarify, I could find some who have gone this route ("OldPreMeds.com"). I suppose the answers I was seeking were already on SDN (that almost sounds theological!).

I was calling it "extreme" in part because it is rare go this far down the academic research path prior to jumping-course and also b/c a traditional PhD does not always take the same amount of time as when it is initially combined with the MD (at least from my experiences at UPenn). This is not a knock on the MD/PhD program.

Thanks again and I'll keep everyone posted! 🙂

I wasn't criticizing you, more wanting to reassure you that the path you're proposing has been well-trodden. It only seems uncommon to you right now because you don't know very many people yet who have made the switch. But there are lots of us.

I only knew one other person who wanted to do PhD-to-MD when I first started thinking about switching. He was an immunology post doc, and I met him because he was a student in my MCAT class.

Everyone else I knew from grad school was getting jobs and doing post docs, and the premed advisor at the university where I did my PhD didn't know what to do as far as advising someone like me. But like you, I met plenty of people with PhDs through SDN. I met some others while interviewing for med school and residency as well, and there were even a few MDs and med students like me with organic chem PhDs. (Unsurprisingly, most people with both degrees, regardless of whether they did them together or separately, have biomedical science PhDs, so I was pleasantly surprised to discover that even nontraditional PhDs aren't so uncommon.)

Oh, and being a white male doesn't matter. There are plenty of those in med school, too. 😉

 

[Ebola4Breakfast]

Great broad-reaching advice from all. It's nice to get so many perspectives.

Just got my MCAT score:

9/11/11 31
V/P/B

Science can be quite scary considering the huge cuts the NIH is being forced to make. This has pushed the pay-line of research grants to a whole new level. As far as debt:income is concerned, I have done a few time value of money calculations. If I assume the best case scenario with a PhD (tenure position with a good base salary, NIH R01, etc...) compared to the "worst" case as an MD (general medicine, academic appointment, debt, etc.), it's about even. However, if I'm really true to what I want (patient responsibilities, security, etc), MD wins out.

I'm hoping to still find outlets for my creativity- side research in the summers, etc....

Thanks again for all the advice!

Congrats on the score increase! That was probably the biggest favor you could do for yourself. I applied a couple of years ago with a marginal MCAT but very strong grad school record. My ECs definitely opened a few doors that may not have been otherwise open for someone with my stats, but it absolutely shut way, way more doors.

I also agree with Q. I'm one of two PhDs in my class. There are an additional two PhDs in our MS3 class. I go to a research-heavy school, so maybe it's a little biased... but it's likely you'll meet similar people on the interview trail and in your own class. Good luck!

 

[BlackBox]

Oh, and being a white male doesn't matter. There are plenty of those in med school, too. 😉

🙂

 

[BlackBox]

Congrats on the score increase! That was probably the biggest favor you could do for yourself. I applied a couple of years ago with a marginal MCAT but very strong grad school record. My ECs definitely opened a few doors that may not have been otherwise open for someone with my stats, but it absolutely shut way, way more doors.

I also agree with Q. I'm one of two PhDs in my class. There are an additional two PhDs in our MS3 class. I go to a research-heavy school, so maybe it's a little biased... but it's likely you'll meet similar people on the interview trail and in your own class. Good luck!

Thanks! The score was a vast improvement over my original. It's not great, but it will help a lot.

BTW love the ebola EM. I used to work on that virus until we got scooped on the receptor...

 

[netminder]

I did it, too: PhD in molecular biology before med school. I'm now an MS4 in a not-so-research-heavy program at a US allopathic school. I'm the only PhD in our class, but I'm not the only non-trad by far. There are a bunch of people who have MS's, MPH's, and a couple of RN's. The research background, pubs, connections, and experience, have been huge for me -- first, with regard to getting into an MD school, and now, for applying to residencies. It has come up in every single conversation I've had with people when asking for advice re: residency programs. Program directors seem to look favorably (in my limited experience) on those who will not be a liability to their program by struggling to complete the research requirements. Also, those who publish are assets that program, as they present at meetings, all of which reflects positively on the program. I think this is a great way to go. Obviously, I'm biased because it has gone well for me so far. Sell yourself. Good luck. If I can swing this, anybody can.

 

[SpaceLeftBlank]

I've looked around for a thread that discusses people who have gone to medical school following a PhD, but it seems to be lacking.

My wife started medical school after getting a PhD in molecular virology (actually think she finished the dissertation during her M1 year). She just finished a general-surgery residency and is starting a critical-care fellowhsip. So yeah, it can be done. 🙂

 

[hypadude]

I'm currently in Tulane's HEAL-X program, which is specifically for applicants that have completed a PhD. I was accepted on my second application season, the first being a real downer, but I'm so glad I was persistent.

MCAT: 33, uGPA: 3.2 (physics and electrical engineering), gGPA: 3.8 (neuroscience)

I did 6 months of full-time shadowing as a scribe in an ER while simultaneously working full-time at a primary-care clinic in a role similar to a medical technician (80 hours/week). I think showing my dedication to the field of medicine with this clinical experiences was key to a successful application. I did not like bench work at all, and will strive to never do it again, although I am open to clinically-oriented research. These were not my only ECs, with research, small-business ownership, teaching, and more also being listed on my application, but since I was most passionate about my clinical experiences, that's what I focused on in emphasis and interviews.

If anyone wants any advice on this path, I'm happy to help.

 

[slickwillbo]

Hi everyone,

I'd like to post my situation here and see what all of you thought. I was going to wait for my MCAT scores, but I'm enjoying this discussion.

The good:

I'm doing a PhD in pharmacology at a top-25 med school, and am planning to apply for med school in the next cycle. I have 5 papers published or in various stages of publication. Four of those are in higher impact journals (PNAS or higher), including 2 first-authors. I hope to have two more first-authors within the next year (in similar journals). I also received an individual predoctoral fellowship this year, which was encouraging in light of the low paylines these days 🙁 I also took the MCAT on Sept. 11, and I expect between a 35-40 (my AAMC average was ~37).

The bad:

My undergrad GPA was 3.35. This was in BME at a top-5 engineering school, and was good enough for high honors (magna cum laude). However, I know that's low for most MD programs. My grad GPA is ~3.9, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't matter. I also have limited clinical volunteering/shadowing, which is what I hope to improve this year. I have other ECs (teaching ESL, spending a summer in Africa), but those aren't medical-related.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on my chances. Ideally, I'd like to continue doing research and so would like to go to a top-25 research school. I'd appreciate any thoughts you have on my chances, plus the best way to bolster my application!

 

[Amygdarya]

The good:

I'm doing a PhD in pharmacology at a top-25 med school, and am planning to apply for med school in the next cycle. I have 5 papers published or in various stages of publication. Four of those are in higher impact journals (PNAS or higher), including 2 first-authors. I hope to have two more first-authors within the next year (in similar journals). I also received an individual predoctoral fellowship this year, which was encouraging in light of the low paylines these days 🙁 I also took the MCAT on Sept. 11, and I expect between a 35-40 (my AAMC average was ~37).

The bad:

My undergrad GPA was 3.35. This was in BME at a top-5 engineering school, and was good enough for high honors (magna cum laude). However, I know that's low for most MD programs. My grad GPA is ~3.9, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't matter. I also have limited clinical volunteering/shadowing, which is what I hope to improve this year. I have other ECs (teaching ESL, spending a summer in Africa), but those aren't medical-related.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on my chances. Ideally, I'd like to continue doing research and so would like to go to a top-25 research school. I'd appreciate any thoughts you have on my chances, plus the best way to bolster my application!

First, congrats on your publications! 👍

Regarding your chances, I think they will depend on 1) your MCAT, 2) LORs and 3) the amount of clinical exposure you get. Some schools may overlook lower undergrad GPA, especially in a hard major, if you have a high MCAT, a graduate degree, publications and solid "standard" ECs. You will probably have to apply broadly even with a high MCAT score, though I think you have a pretty good chance at getting into some top 25 schools, granted everything else is strong. As you know yourself, you need to get some quality clinical exposure - the more the better. You will also need to package your experiences into a nice story for your PS and interviews (anecdotally, it helps having some unusual experiences/hobbies). Good luck!

An update from me: I got 4 IIs so far (all top 25), attended one of the interviews and am looking forward to the other 3 in the next 2 weeks! I'm very excited, but worried about my interview performance and overall chances, too.

 

[slickwillbo]

First, congrats on your publications! 👍

Regarding your chances, I think they will depend on 1) your MCAT, 2) LORs and 3) the amount of clinical exposure you get. Some schools may overlook lower undergrad GPA, especially in a hard major, if you have a high MCAT, a graduate degree, publications and solid "standard" ECs. You will probably have to apply broadly even with a high MCAT score, though I think you have a pretty good chance at getting into some top 25 schools, granted everything else is strong. As you know yourself, you need to get some quality clinical exposure - the more the better. You will also need to package your experiences into a nice story for your PS and interviews (anecdotally, it helps having some unusual experiences/hobbies). Good luck!

An update from me: I got 4 IIs so far, attended one of the interviews and am looking forward to the other 3 in the next 2 weeks! I'm very excited, but worried about my interview performance and overall chances, too.

Thanks for the reply, and congrats on your interviews! I think my LORs should be strong, but I hope to go talk to the admissions people at my school to see what they say (once I get my MCAT back).

Congrats on the inviations! It's nice to see someone like me getting IIs- it looks like we'll have somewhat similar statistics.

 

[Amygdarya]

I hope to go talk to the admissions people at my school to see what they say (once I get my MCAT back).

This is a very good idea. Just don't forget, regardless of what kind of response you get from them, that their opinion is an opinion of one admissions committee 😉

Congrats on the inviations! It's nice to see someone like me getting IIs- it looks like we'll have somewhat similar statistics.

Thank you! I am very happy about my IIs, all of these are schools I like a lot and would be absolutely delighted to attend. Unfortunately, an II is not a guarantee of acceptance (I know someone who had 6 interviews and didn't get accepted anywhere, not a PhD though), so we'll see how it goes... I'm very excited, but I'm kind of afraid to get my hopes up.

Speaking of stats, my foreign undergrad degree is kind of a double edge sword: on the one hand, it's a disadvantage at many schools (some schools flat out refuse to consider people without an American or a Canadian undergrad degree), on the other hand, since most schools won't consider my foreign undergrad courses, my high post-bacc (post-postgrad, haha) GPA come into play... or so I think.

 

[BlackBox]

I'm currently in Tulane's HEAL-X program, which is specifically for applicants that have completed a PhD. I was accepted on my second application season, the first being a real downer, but I'm so glad I was persistent.

MCAT: 33, uGPA: 3.2 (physics and electrical engineering), gGPA: 3.8 (neuroscience)

I did 6 months of full-time shadowing as a scribe in an ER while simultaneously working full-time at a primary-care clinic in a role similar to a medical technician (80 hours/week). I think showing my dedication to the field of medicine with this clinical experiences was key to a successful application. I did not like bench work at all, and will strive to never do it again, although I am open to clinically-oriented research. These were not my only ECs, with research, small-business ownership, teaching, and more also being listed on my application, but since I was most passionate about my clinical experiences, that's what I focused on in emphasis and interviews.

If anyone wants any advice on this path, I'm happy to help.

I have an ii for the Heal-X program this Wednesday- pretty excited!

 

[tiger86]

Need support from my fellow PhD-to-MD's:
I'm applying this cycle: did a PhD in regenerative medicine in 3.5 years, undergrad 3.52cGPA/3.77sGPA in BME from a top3 engineering school and currently doing a postdoc in another top 3 engineering school, balanced MCAT 33--12/10/11, ~100 hours of clinical volunteering/shadowing, two first-author papers and one second-author paper, applied to ~30 schools, completed most of my secondaries in mid-August, now sitting on 6 rejections (BU, Chicago, Pitt, Rochester, Drexel and Cleveland Clinic) but 0 interview. This waiting game is kinda painful...

 

[QofQuimica]

Need support from my fellow PhD-to-MD's:
I'm applying this cycle: did a PhD in regenerative medicine in 3.5 years, undergrad 3.52cGPA/3.77sGPA in BME from a top3 engineering school and currently doing a postdoc in another top 3 engineering school, balanced MCAT 33--12/10/11, ~100 hours of clinical volunteering/shadowing, two first-author papers and one second-author paper, applied to ~30 schools, completed most of my secondaries in mid-August, now sitting on 6 rejections (BU, Chicago, Pitt, Rochester, Drexel and Cleveland Clinic) but 0 interview. This waiting game is kinda painful...

Contact some of those schools that rejected you and ask them for advice on how to strengthen your app. There's something off in how you're presenting yourself on paper if research-oriented schools like those are rejecting you pre-interview.

 

[La Presse]

Need support from my fellow PhD-to-MD's:
I'm applying this cycle: did a PhD in regenerative medicine in 3.5 years, undergrad 3.52cGPA/3.77sGPA in BME from a top3 engineering school and currently doing a postdoc in another top 3 engineering school, balanced MCAT 33--12/10/11, ~100 hours of clinical volunteering/shadowing, two first-author papers and one second-author paper, applied to ~30 schools, completed most of my secondaries in mid-August, now sitting on 6 rejections (BU, Chicago, Pitt, Rochester, Drexel and Cleveland Clinic) but 0 interview. This waiting game is kinda painful...

Wow. 3.5 years to complete a PhD?! That's ridiculous. What program was this, if you don't mind saying?

 

[tiger86]

Contact some of those schools that rejected you and ask them for advice on how to strengthen your app. There's something off in how you're presenting yourself on paper if research-oriented schools like those are rejecting you pre-interview.

Thank you so much for the advice: do I just call the admission offices directly or it's better to email them?

 

[tiger86]

Wow. 3.5 years to complete a PhD?! That's ridiculous. What program was this, if you don't mind saying?

I'm just really lucky, all my labmates spent at least 4.5 years, it's just that my project went very smoothly. pm'ed the program's name 🙂

 

[La Presse]

I'm just really lucky, all my labmates spent at least 4.5 years, it's just that my project went very smoothly. pm'ed the program's name 🙂

Still didn't get that PM. 🙁

I did some thinking and have asked around. Did you have a masters degree before pursing your PhD? Or did you enter after undergrad? 🙂

 

[tiger86]

Still didn't get that PM. 🙁

I did some thinking and have asked around. Did you have a masters degree before pursing your PhD? Or did you enter after undergrad? 🙂

just PM'ed you 🙂 can you see it? I did it straight from undegrad, I finished my defense a week before my 26th birthday 🙂

 

[BlackBox]

Accepted to the HEAL-X program at Tulane. Really excited!! 😀

 

[Amygdarya]

👍 Congratulations BlackBox! You're gonna be a real doctor! 😛 Are you interviewing/expecting decisions from somewhere else or are you all set for Tulane?

Updates from me: I had 5 interviews and have 2 upcoming interviews, all in top 25. No acceptances yet (all of my schools except for one start announcing their decisions much later; and I got a hold status at that one 🙁 - not very encouraging, but that school is my lowest priority, and I have some nice updates to send if I decide to court that school, so I'm not terribly upset... yet), but I'm hopeful. I'll be happy to go to any of the schools I've been interviewing at, though, of course, I have my favorites. Fingers crossed all the way till March 15th.

 

[BlackBox]

Thanks! It feels good to have an acceptance, and even better to have one at school I really like. I've heard back from BU and Pitt with rejections, Penn State was a surprising hold, and still waiting to hear back about one of my other interviews. As for my other schools, I'm either complete, under review, or small pooled. I suppose this might be b/c I finished the majority of my sec apps in late Sept. I did have one additional II at a DO school that I just withdrew from.

As for your progress, I'm really encouraged! 5 II should net you a couple of acceptances. Fingers crossed

 

[Amygdarya]

It feels good to have an acceptance, and even better to have one at school I really like. I've heard back from BU and Pitt with rejections, Penn State was a surprising hold, and still waiting to hear back about one of my other interviews. As for my other schools, I'm either complete, under review, or small pooled. I suppose this might be b/c I finished the majority of my sec apps in late Sept. I did have one additional II at a DO school that I just withdrew from.

It truly is great to get an acceptance from a school you really like! Congratulations!
Yeah, late September is kind of late, but considering the time lag you may still get more IIs from other schools.
But wait, did you get your Pitt rejection pre-interview or post-interview? Presumably Pitt releases its post-interview decisions after January 31, I would be very surprised if it already released some post-interview rejections.

As for your progress, I'm really encouraged! 5 II should net you a couple of acceptances. Fingers crossed

5 interviews already attended, 7 IIs total 😉
Thank you!

 

[BlackBox]

Pitt was a rejection pre-interview. whomp whomp

 

[Amygdarya]

I see. I was worried that Pitt had already started announcing post-interview decisions.

In other news, I got a pre-interview rejection from Tulane today 😀 I originally applied to HEAL-X, but then realized that I wouldn't be able to start med school in January 2014, so I asked the admissions office to transfer me for consideration for the regular MD program - and here's what they decided. Oh well. I'm very happy with my 7 IIs from great schools, though I'm also terrified that I may end up being "that girl" who interviewed at 7 top schools and didn't get accepted anywhere 😀

So, it's great that you already have a acceptance to HEAL-X!

 

[gytmjr]

I'll chime in.
I came to the US with a BS in Chemistry from a different country (a top school in my country with a strong science department, not that anybody in the US cares about that), did a PhD in Microbiology and Immunology at a US medical school, did a short postdoc in microbiology at a different (and better) US medical school, and for the past year and half I've been doing clinical research in infectious diseases at the same school I did my postdoc. I have a fairly good amount of publications, presentations, leadership and teaching/mentoring experience for someone in this kind of career, however, my prospects of getting a grant or a fellowship were severely limited by the fact that I was a foreigner, so I only received some institutional awards. I got my green card (based on my research work) less than a year ago.

Since I got my undergraduate degree from a non-US non-Canadian school, I ended up taking more than 90 US undergraduate credits in 2 years (while working full time) with 3.96 cGPA (one really stupid B, long story)/ 4.0 sGPA. Both my foreign undergrad GPA and my US PhD GPA are around 3.5 - hey, I didn't know I would be applying to US medical schools 🙂, plus, I, too, focused on my research in grad school, which is supported by multiple publications that resulted from several different projects I worked on.

I think that 2 things are important for someone in our position: 1) decent clinical exposure (to show that we know what we're getting ourselves into, and that we're getting into that not just because we're disillusioned with our research careers), and 2) solid MCAT.
For the first item, I've been volunteering at an ER for over 4 years, shadowed some ID and primary care docs and I'm currently working in clinical research, which allows for many interactions with our patients and their doctors. I have also volunteered at community health/outreach events.
For the second item, I feel your pain 🙂 I got a 30 on my first MCAT, which is totally my fault: I didn't really prepare for it and I was uncharacteristically arrogant (glanced through the topics - oh, OK, I know this! - took an AAMC practice test and got a 35 - OK, I can live with that!). Now, guys, I think that a 30 is a decent score for some schools and some people are understandably ecstatic to get a 30, but I think that expectations for people with PhDs may be higher. So the second time I actually prepared for the test 🙂 and got a 38 - now there is a score I can live with. (I may still have to explain the low first score at the interviews, hope it will not be held against me...)

I'm applying this cycle (hopefully for the first and only time). I think my stats are OK and ECs are solid, and my biggest weakness is my foreign undergrad and a lack of US undergrad degree (I think I would have a much better chance if I had an undergrad degree from a decent US school). By now, I have completed 17 applications and I'm still working on 5-7 (I'm having doubts about submitting secondaries to 2 of the schools I sent my primaries to). I'm kind of slow with my secondary essays: my work keeps me busy even on weekends, plus, I'm taking forever to polish every single essay because I'm not a native English speaker and feel very insecure about my writing skills. Applications to my top choices and rolling admission schools were completed first.
Most of the schools I'm applying to are top 25. It's not that I care that much about prestige, but I really want to go into academic medicine, so I'm mostly interested in strong research schools. I know they are difficult to get into, but, paradoxically, they may also be the most likely to accept me because they're more flexible about foreign undergrads etc. We'll see. So far, I have 1 rejection (UofChicago, definite reach - I think my weakness was the paucity of non-medical community volunteering, and the fact that I had an economically disadvantaged background did not quality me for the socially conscious UofC 🙂; plus, I'm a foreigner but not an URM) and 2 interview invitations (UofPittsburgh and UTSW), both of which I'm very happy about. And it's only the beginning of the cycle, so I'm really hopeful 🙂
Scheduling interviews is kind of a pain with my current job, but my colleagues have been very supportive and understanding. Now I just need to do well at those interviews...

Hey Amygdarya!

I just read your posts, and was thinking to ask for your suggestions/advice, as I am currently in the same situation.
Finished my Undergraduate degree (BS Chemistry) outside the US, with honors (and have more than enough prereq courses, if only they count in the US). Got my PhD in Chemistry (2013) at a top school in the US, and currently a Postdoc at TSRI. Seriously considering med school, and trying to fulfill the necessary requirements.
In your post, you said you ended up taking more than 90 US undergraduate credits in 2 years (while working full time). Did you still have to take Bio courses? (I assume you took graduate courses in biological sciences, and was wondering if they were counted or not)
Did you try contacting the schools that you applied to, regarding this issue?
In my case, I don't see the point of taking Organic Chemistry and biochem courses, since I've already taken graduate courses.
I'd appreciate your advice on this matter.
Thank you.

 

[Amygdarya]

Hey Amygdarya!

I just read your posts, and was thinking to ask for your suggestions/advice, as I am currently in the same situation.
Finished my Undergraduate degree (BS Chemistry) outside the US, with honors (and have more than enough prereq courses, if only they count in the US). Got my PhD in Chemistry (2013) at a top school in the US, and currently a Postdoc at TSRI. Seriously considering med school, and trying to fulfill the necessary requirements.
In your post, you said you ended up taking more than 90 US undergraduate credits in 2 years (while working full time). Did you still have to take Bio courses? (I assume you took graduate courses in biological sciences, and was wondering if they were counted or not)
Did you try contacting the schools that you applied to, regarding this issue?
In my case, I don't see the point of taking Organic Chemistry and biochem courses, since I've already taken graduate courses.
I'd appreciate your advice on this matter.
Thank you.

Hey,
Congrats on you achievements! Chemistry is tougher than Biology - and I should know, I have BS in Chemistry from my country 😉

To answer your questions, yes, I emailed most of the schools I was interested in applying to (unless they were very specific about their requirements on their websites) and received meaningful responses from most of them. I think knowing exactly what a school's requirements are is very important, and I encourage everyone to seek specific information, so you won't waste time, money and effort.

It's correct, I earned more than 90 US undegraduate credits (108 total) on top of my graduate credits, and this includes 2 semesters of freaking undergraduate Biology with labs (I'm sorry, but it was utterly annoying for me to waste time and money on this). Now, you may not have to take 90 credits and/or Chemistry. The reason I jumped all these hoops, I was applying to TX state schools, among others, and they are very rigid about their requirements: they require 90 *undergraduate* credits, period, so I had to suck it up and take that Bio. The irony is, I ended up choosing a private school in the Northeast that is a lot more flexible with its requirements 😛
Anyway, the thing is, TMDSAS schools are rather an exception than the rule; most US schools require only 30 US undergraduate credits including prereqs (so it's pretty much all the standard prereqs) and may accept US graduate credits in lieu of some of their requirements. Your foreign undergraduate credits are a lot less likely to count toward requirements, though a few schools do consider them on a case-by-case basis (i.e. in the context of your whole application). That said, a minority of US medical schools (Mayo comes to mind) require US undergraduate degrees. All of which supports the importance of knowing each school's specific requirements 🙂
In other words, considering how competitive the application process is, to be able to cast a wider net, you may want to adhere to the stricter requirements rather than hope to get accepted to more flexible schools. But it's up to you how much risk you're willing to tolerate vs. how much effort you're willing to spend.

As a rule, private schools, and especially top private schools, are a lot more flexible with their requirements than state schools, though there may be exceptions. Of course, you have to be a strong applicant to be considered at any one of them - but it sounds like you are 😉 What you need (besides filling those prereq gaps) is to prove your interest in clinical medicine and destroy MCAT.

... But before you get into all of this, make sure you really want to go into medicine (clinical volunteering, shadowing etc) 😉

And just to update my story in this thread: I got accepted to 4 out of the 7 top schools I interviewed at (withdrew after being waitlisted at two others, and waitlisted without any hope at one) and I'm heading to a school that I think is a really good fit for me this Fall 🙂

 

[Muffinho]

For those of you who have gone PhD to MD, did the PhD impact your applications for specific specialties?

Did you stray away from the longer programs, or did it not matter?

 

[QofQuimica]

For those of you who have gone PhD to MD, did the PhD impact your applications for specific specialties?

Did you stray away from the longer programs, or did it not matter?

No, it didn't matter.

Most PhDs-to-MDs will be in their late 20s when they matriculate into med school if they applied right out of grad school or post doc. That's still young enough that it wouldn't raise too many eyebrows if you decided to apply for a longer residency. However, if you're going to be over age 35 when you start med school, meaning you will therefore be age 40+ as an intern, yeah, you may want to have a backup plan if neurosurgery is your dream specialty.

 

[Muffinho]

No, it didn't matter.

Most PhDs-to-MDs will be in their late 20s when they matriculate into med school if they applied right out of grad school or post doc. That's still young enough that it wouldn't raise too many eyebrows if you decided to apply for a longer residency. However, if you're going to be over age 35 when you start med school, meaning you will therefore be age 40+ as an intern, yeah, you may want to have a backup plan if neurosurgery is your dream specialty.

I'll probably be 30-32, hopefully closer to 30. I would never dream of doing anything surgical, really interested in Medical Genetics which is a 5 year program I think.

 

[gytmjr]

Hey,
Congrats on you achievements! Chemistry is tougher than Biology - and I should know, I have BS in Chemistry from my country 😉

To answer your questions, yes, I emailed most of the schools I was interested in applying to (unless they were very specific about their requirements on their websites) and received meaningful responses from most of them. I think knowing exactly what a school's requirements are is very important, and I encourage everyone to seek specific information, so you won't waste time, money and effort.

It's correct, I earned more than 90 US undegraduate credits (108 total) on top of my graduate credits, and this includes 2 semesters of freaking undergraduate Biology with labs (I'm sorry, but it was utterly annoying for me to waste time and money on this). Now, you may not have to take 90 credits and/or Chemistry. The reason I jumped all these hoops, I was applying to TX state schools, among others, and they are very rigid about their requirements: they require 90 *undergraduate* credits, period, so I had to suck it up and take that Bio. The irony is, I ended up choosing a private school in the Northeast that is a lot more flexible with its requirements 😛
Anyway, the thing is, TMDSAS schools are rather an exception than the rule; most US schools require only 30 US undergraduate credits including prereqs (so it's pretty much all the standard prereqs) and may accept US graduate credits in lieu of some of their requirements. Your foreign undergraduate credits are a lot less likely to count toward requirements, though a few schools do consider them on a case-by-case basis (i.e. in the context of your whole application). That said, a minority of US medical schools (Mayo comes to mind) require US undergraduate degrees. All of which supports the importance of knowing each school's specific requirements 🙂
In other words, considering how competitive the application process is, to be able to cast a wider net, you may want to adhere to the stricter requirements rather than hope to get accepted to more flexible schools. But it's up to you how much risk you're willing to tolerate vs. how much effort you're willing to spend.

As a rule, private schools, and especially top private schools, are a lot more flexible with their requirements than state schools, though there may be exceptions. Of course, you have to be a strong applicant to be considered at any one of them - but it sounds like you are 😉 What you need (besides filling those prereq gaps) is to prove your interest in clinical medicine and destroy MCAT.

... But before you get into all of this, make sure you really want to go into medicine (clinical volunteering, shadowing etc) 😉

And just to update my story in this thread: I got accepted to 4 out of the 7 top schools I interviewed at (withdrew after being waitlisted at two others, and waitlisted without any hope at one) and I'm heading to a school that I think is a really good fit for me this Fall 🙂

Thanks Amygdarya!
And Congrats on your successful application! I wish I'm in your position, but I still have a long way to go!
I will still need to get a green card, before I can even start my application. I'll ask for your advice from time to time, I hope you won't mind 😉

 

[Dral]

Hello!

Thanks so much for this post. I am sort of in the same boat. I completed my PhD cell/molecular 2 years ago but now I want to do medicine. I am not sure if I would be competitive enough for med school due the following reasons:
1. I'm now 34 years old
2. My undergrad GPA was 2.8.
3. I'm a minority (native Hawaiian)
4. I was an orphan and homeless for 11 years before attending college. I was told that this could be a very negative factor for my application. Is it true that medical schools do not like to consider minorities and homeless people?
5. I only have 1 week of clinical shadowing

Additional information:
I took the MCAT recently and scored 39 (14/14/11). However, I was told that my score is not competitive enough since I had a very bad undergrad GPA. I am now very depressed and don't know what to do about this. Also, I have 5 first author publications in good scientific journals and a number of scientific awards. My grad GPA was 3.7. but I was told that my grad GPA is not going to be used for admission purposes.

I really want to improve my application for med school so please give me some advice on how to improve my application. Thank you so much!

More shadowing, volunteering, ECs
MCAT is obviously fine
That GPA is the thing. You could consider grade replacement for DO
May need to explain GPA/MCAT discordance
If you are URM, that should be an advantage.
The homeless thing won't be a negative. It could be a positive depending.

 

[futuremdforme]

Hello!

Thanks so much for this post. I am sort of in the same boat. I completed my PhD cell/molecular 2 years ago but now I want to do medicine. I am not sure if I would be competitive enough for med school due the following reasons:
1. I'm now 34 years old
2. My undergrad GPA was 2.8.
3. I'm a minority (native Hawaiian)
4. I was an orphan and homeless for 11 years before attending college. I was told that this could be a very negative factor for my application. Is it true that medical schools do not like to consider minorities and homeless people?
5. I only have 1 week of clinical shadowing

Additional information:
I took the MCAT recently and scored 39 (14/14/11). However, I was told that my score is not competitive enough since I had a very bad undergrad GPA. I am now very depressed and don't know what to do about this. Also, I have 5 first author publications in good scientific journals and a number of scientific awards. My grad GPA was 3.7. but I was told that my grad GPA is not going to be used for admission purposes.

I really want to improve my application for med school so please give me some advice on how to improve my application. Thank you so much!

How many classes would you have to redo to bring up your GPA to 3.0? Your mcat is stellar and it's not that it's not good enough to compensate for the gpa so much as the gpa could be automatically rejected regardless of mcat.

Also did you do volunteering? I would say it's more important than more shadowing if you've already done a week.

 

[stemingen]

Truly inspiring thread! Another one on the track to get into Med school after obtaining a PhD degree.

Good luck to everyone applying this year!

 

[deleted862527]

Wow.

@Scien_Phys TBH, I think you made yourself super competitive. just go rock the MCAT which sounds like it will be a breeze for you because of your extensive science background. good for you!

 

[zamba]

Truly inspiring thread! Another one on the track to get into Med school after obtaining a PhD degree.

Good luck to everyone applying this year!

AWESOME! Could you tell us a bit about yourself, please?