**** med school "name" bias

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His issue wasn't that he didn't know how to think. He's obviously very intelligent. What you don't seem to understand is that privilege begets privilege in the sense that rich, highly-educated parents know all the tricks and unspoken rules for gaming the system, so their children have a massive advantage very early on. First-generation college students can be superior thinkers, but it won't matter if they don't know how to manipulate the extremely biased educational infrastructure, which tends to reward the children of doctors, lawyers, and businessmen who have connections and access to all the right supplemental educational resources. For example, a lot of 1st generation college students just show up and take the SAT without preparing. It's billed as an aptitude test, so they treat it as such, whereas people with college-educated parents know that it can be prepared for, so they buy expensive SAT prep courses that enable them to get into schools like Harvard...

A computer can have the most efficient algorithm in the world, but it won't arrive at the right answer if it only has access to ****ty data.
I do understand this, completely.

OP isn't talking about the faults of the system and how much worse off economically disadvantaged people are. He's whining about his life and his situation. What does whining do? When has whining ever helped anyone?
 
But you and OP make the assumption that students at top schools unilaterally come from these backgrounds. That is not the case. The majority of people at top schools come from privileged backgrounds, yes, but the majority of students at all med schools do. It may preclude one more, I don't know. But you don't really know either. You may know that top schools have more kids from the Ivy league undergrads (I don't know that this is true, but much like the residency from med school situation it does seem likely), but you don't actually know if they might just be more highly performing.

I'm not making the assumption that Ivy schools don't have people from disadvantaged backgrounds. I am just saying that saying someone should have worked harder to get into a top med school is naive. The problem is that people from disadvanted backgrounds often dont have guidance on how to be successful or even know its possible to be successful. If you told me in high school I'd be in medical school I would not have believed it. Almost everyone I knew growing up went to work straight out of high school or worked some middle class job at best. There was no physicians in my network of people that I could ask for advice or even look up to. Even the teachers at my high school didn't believe in the students or at the least didn't care to help aspire us to big dreams.

So while I'm sure there are a fair number of disadvantaged students at top medical schools, something caused them to aspire for big dreams earlier than those who ended up at lower ranked programs. My point is that its stupid to say someone should have tried harder to get into a good medical school ignoring all the possible barriers someone could have that causes them to reach their potential late and none of that has to do with working harder.
 
I'm not making the assumption that Ivy schools don't have people from disadvantaged backgrounds. I am just saying that saying someone should have worked harder to get into a top med school is naive. The problem is that people from disadvanted backgrounds often dont have guidance on how to be successful or even know its possible to be successful. If you told me in high school I'd be in medical school I would not have believed it. Almost everyone I knew growing up went to work straight out of high school or worked some middle class job at best. There was no physicians in my network of people that I could ask for advice or even look up to. Even the teachers at my high school didn't believe in the students or at the least didn't care to help aspire us to big dreams.

So while I'm sure there are a fair number of disadvantaged students at top medical schools, something caused them to aspire for big dreams earlier than those who ended up at lower ranked programs. My point is that its stupid to say someone should have tried harder to get into a good medical school ignoring all the possible barriers someone could have that causes them to reach their potential late and none of that has to do with working harder.
Yeah, I agree that saying that someone should have "worked harder" to get into a top medical school falls short. But I think it's also extrapolating more out of what was likely meant when the original comment was made. I feel that the comment probably was saying if you have what it takes academically, why not make it happen sooner so that you can put yourself in the best situation for residency? Obviously there are many other factors, such as peaking in medical school and not knowing enough about the system early enough to try to take advantage. Along with the opportunity to chase down ECs instead of supporting one's self and other things. I think that something that you're either not aware of or don't care about is that you can offend people from top schools when you dismiss getting to a top school as an accomplishment that is part of their application. Especially those who don't come from the most privileged of backgrounds.

And as someone who applied to top schools from a small, not well known undergrad I can feel your pain. But I never thought that the system was unfair. I felt like kids from the top schools should be rewarded for that. I just felt that I had shown enough for someone to take a chance. I also thought that blaming it on the school I came from without directly hearing it from a school would be lazy and pointless on my part. I don't know that that is what would have held me back, it's just easier than criticizing other things about my application. Obviously you've been told this by people you're meeting with, but I would still just spend time focusing on things you can control. Obviously you were ranting and venting and that's allowed, but it's not going to get you into a top residency either. If the scores are right and you apply to all of the top places and interview well, I bet you'll get there.
 
^ To be fair though, some programs are notoriously nepotistic - eg Stanford Derm, MSK, MGH IM, etc.

Including the best Ortho program in Philly, which would be Jefferson.

PGY-1 = 4/6 from Jefferson
PGY-2 = 5/6 from Jefferson
 
I hope this somehow doesn't find it way to come back and bite me in the ass but I need to vent because I am tired of the bull****. I have met with several program directors while on my aways and at my own home program who have told me that the name, or lack of a name, of my program will likely hurt me in the match. I scored ~>2 SD on both Step 1 and Step 2 putting me in the >90th percentile, I have received AOA after honoring every single rotation in medical school, I have great LORs and one from a highly regarded institution where I did an away, and yet every time I talk to a PD I can see their excitement over my application fade when it comes to talking about my home program.

What is the point of having standardized testing for Step 1 and Step 2 if you still rely heavily on the "name" of the program for who you pick to be part of your residency.

I am not whining here because I think I will go unmatched or anything. I think my app is pretty strong and I will likely match and match at a decent program. It just pisses me off that many programs will have already written off my application based on the name of my school alone.

I know this will probably never change and it doesn't do any good to worry about it. I can't change where I went to school but its just sad that residency programs still base decisions on something so unimportant. And for one thing, I am proud of my small unknown program. Honestly, after doing aways at two "top 10" programs, the level of teaching and education is pretty similar. I feel like I have been trained very well and it just sucks that most programs will not even give me the chance because they want to boast to each other who has the biggest dick based on how many ivy league students they got.

This was basically just a big long wall of text I needed to write because I feel like **** all today. Because busting my ass for 4 years doesn't mean as much because I wasn't lucky enough to go to a big name for medical school.

Not that I don't understand where you're coming from but you have to appreciate the irony of you complaining about other people caring about name when your complaint is about you caring about name
 
This was basically just a big long wall of text I needed to write because I feel like **** all today. Because busting my ass for 4 years doesn't mean as much because I wasn't lucky enough to go to a big name for medical school.[/QUOTE said:
Are you planning to stay in academics or practice outside the academic world?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Just because Harvard swings near 1.000 in placing premeds, doesn't mean they all go to top schools.

I don't think the ratio is quite 1.000, probably 90-95%. But agree in general. I personally know several Harvard students who ended up at an unranked US MD school or a Caribbean school.
 
I don't think the ratio is quite 1.000, probably 90-95%. But agree in general. I personally know several Harvard students who ended up at an unranked US MD school or a Caribbean school.

You do know that unranked doesn't mean much right? Even the rankings themselves are suspect.
 
Have you considered that you are reading too much into this? I'm fairly sensitive to giving people false hope when it comes to admissions.

I have randomly selected orthopedic surgery at UPenn as a program that is likely pretty damned hard to match into. Let's see where some of their current residents went to medical school:

PGY-1: Drexel x 2, NYMC
PGY-2: UConn, Missouri-Kansas, NYMC, UMass
PGY-3: UConn, Wisconsin
PGY-4: UCF, Drexel, SUNY Stony Brook, Rutgers
PGY-5: SLU, Rutgers

The place still has a lot of representation from top tier schools, but they clearly take high performers from a variety of institutions.

tl;dr Come back and complain about this after match day.
Drexel ftw
 
Bro you don't even know the difference between unranked and rank not published. Attempting to explain things to you will not be a productive use of my time.
I think it's not meaningless to distinguish lower 25% schools from top 25% schools. There are probably significant differences in the quality of students and education. People from Harvard College end up at all kinds of medical schools.

All I'm saying is that there is name bias at each stage of academic admissions/selection, but it is not as absolute as people would have you believe.
 
I do understand this, completely.

OP isn't talking about the faults of the system and how much worse off economically disadvantaged people are. He's whining about his life and his situation. What does whining do? When has whining ever helped anyone?
My mom ended up buying me that puppy
 
Have you considered that you are reading too much into this? I'm fairly sensitive to giving people false hope when it comes to admissions.

I have randomly selected orthopedic surgery at UPenn as a program that is likely pretty damned hard to match into. Let's see where some of their current residents went to medical school:

PGY-1: Drexel x 2, NYMC
PGY-2: UConn, Missouri-Kansas, NYMC, UMass
PGY-3: UConn, Wisconsin
PGY-4: UCF, Drexel, SUNY Stony Brook, Rutgers
PGY-5: SLU, Rutgers

The place still has a lot of representation from top tier schools, but they clearly take high performers from a variety of institutions.

tl;dr Come back and complain about this after match day.

You could have also randomly selected HSS. They also take students from schools outside of the top 20:
PGY-1: UT- Houston, Ohio State
PGY-3: U Maryland, NYMC, Dartmouth, Howard, Rush*
PGY-4: UC Irvine
PGY-5: Jefferson*, Wisconsin, Brown

*Letters from their ortho programs likely carry "top-tier" weight.
 
I hope this somehow doesn't find it way to come back and bite me in the ass but I need to vent because I am tired of the bull****. I have met with several program directors while on my aways and at my own home program who have told me that the name, or lack of a name, of my program will likely hurt me in the match. I scored ~>2 SD on both Step 1 and Step 2 putting me in the >90th percentile, I have received AOA after honoring every single rotation in medical school, I have great LORs and one from a highly regarded institution where I did an away, and yet every time I talk to a PD I can see their excitement over my application fade when it comes to talking about my home program.

What is the point of having standardized testing for Step 1 and Step 2 if you still rely heavily on the "name" of the program for who you pick to be part of your residency.

I am not whining here because I think I will go unmatched or anything. I think my app is pretty strong and I will likely match and match at a decent program. It just pisses me off that many programs will have already written off my application based on the name of my school alone.

I know this will probably never change and it doesn't do any good to worry about it. I can't change where I went to school but its just sad that residency programs still base decisions on something so unimportant. And for one thing, I am proud of my small unknown program. Honestly, after doing aways at two "top 10" programs, the level of teaching and education is pretty similar. I feel like I have been trained very well and it just sucks that most programs will not even give me the chance because they want to boast to each other who has the biggest dick based on how many ivy league students they got.

This was basically just a big long wall of text I needed to write because I feel like **** all today. Because busting my ass for 4 years doesn't mean as much because I wasn't lucky enough to go to a big name for medical school.


You'll notice most PDs are elitist, prestige loving, old white dudes.
 
I went to a crummy state school for undergrad, and felt like I needed to move heaven and earth to get into a top medical school because of my undergrad school name. I remember thinking before I took the MCAT that if I got less than 38, I wouldn't even bother applying for admission. Even with an MCAT well above 99th percentile I got all of 3 admissions, after applying to 30 medical schools including some that were unranked. So I kind of know where OP is coming from. Then I went to a top medical school, and found that despite an unremarkable Step 1 and clerkship grades I was able to get interviews at most top programs, and I'm sure school name was a significant factor.

I will tell you that at 'name' programs people focus on other things besides standardized test scores or grades - that's where the fairness comes in. Look at it this way: If I did nothing but study the first two years in medical school, my Step 1 score would have been 10-20 points higher easily, but I worked with a good research mentor and had six papers the first two years instead. Most of my classmates did research or some other activity that people at lower ranked schools, despite maybe a good fund of medical knowledge, aren't and can't get involved in. I was able to work with one of the most well known specialists in my field, who wrote a glowing recommendation letter. I have the advantage of a very successful med school alumni network, which is something tangible that will help my career. And despite people saying an MD is an MD, I have had a few patients in residency that instantly trust me more because of my school name. So is it really unfair to take those factors into account (patient preferences, alumni and personal connections, research, etc) over a higher Step1 or Step2 score? I don't think it's unfair.
 
I went to a crummy state school for undergrad, and felt like I needed to move heaven and earth to get into a top medical school because of my undergrad school name. I remember thinking before I took the MCAT that if I got less than 38, I wouldn't even bother applying for admission. Even with an MCAT well above 99th percentile I got all of 3 admissions, after applying to 30 medical schools including some that were unranked. So I kind of know where OP is coming from. Then I went to a top medical school, and found that despite an unremarkable Step 1 and clerkship grades I was able to get interviews at most top programs, and I'm sure school name was a significant factor.

I will tell you that at 'name' programs people focus on other things besides standardized test scores or grades - that's where the fairness comes in. Look at it this way: If I did nothing but study the first two years in medical school, my Step 1 score would have been 10-20 points higher easily, but I worked with a good research mentor and had six papers the first two years instead. Most of my classmates did research or some other activity that people at lower ranked schools, despite maybe a good fund of medical knowledge, aren't and can't get involved in. I was able to work with one of the most well known specialists in my field, who wrote a glowing recommendation letter. I have the advantage of a very successful med school alumni network, which is something tangible that will help my career. And despite people saying an MD is an MD, I have had a few patients in residency that instantly trust me more because of my school name. So is it really unfair to take those factors into account (patient preferences, alumni and personal connections, research, etc) over a higher Step1 or Step2 score? I don't think it's unfair.

How do your patients know your school name?
 
People that go to schools like that make sure you find out one way or another.

Reminds me of a joke:
-How do you spot the vegan in a crowded party?
-Don't worry, they'll find you and tell you

Applies to the above as well.

I dunno bro, none of the guys I'm with are like that even though the school list reads like a who's who in medicine
 
I dunno bro, none of the guys I'm with are like that even though the school list reads like a who's who in medicine

Good to hear. Obviously I was making generalizations but I agree, I know several people from very highly regarded institutions who never bring it up.
 
People that go to schools like that make sure you find out one way or another.

Reminds me of a joke:
-How do you spot the vegan in a crowded party?
-Don't worry, they'll find you and tell you

Applies to the above as well.
Hey, as they say, if you've got it - flaunt it! Don't brag to your colleagues, but a discerning patient isn't going to be unhappy to find out you went to a top school if you slip it in there somewhere. 🙂

(And no I can't do this because I went to a bottom of the barrel school)
 
It had nothing to do with working harder. I'm pretty sure I worked harder than most people who went to Harvard and had their school paid for and didn't have to work a real job for a even a day.

Maybe if you came from a disadvantaged family in a disadvantaged area and didn't have guidance or mentors or anyone to show you how to be successful then you would understand why me and others in a similar situation don't have the privilege to end up at Harvard for college or medical school. As you said in a later post, I obviously have proved myself to be smart enough and successful in medical school to be in the top percentile and maybe if I grew up with the opportunities to have physicians as parents or teachers who actually cared to teach during high school I would have been at Harvard for med school. But thats not the way it worked out. I struggled to get into medical school because I was never taught how to be successful and every success I've had up to now I've learned how to do on my own. So if you want to make yourself feel superior because you were able to get into a top school when I wasn't maybe you should try and understand that not everyone has the same opportunities as you.

True that! Man I grew up working in sweatshops and picking up trash to make ends meet for my family. When I went to college some kids just don't know how good they had it, to even have parents that spoke English was a huge leg up let alone to have mentors. I had no idea how important name brand was or the role that connections played. I remember this one girl that "worked" in my lab, all she did was text on her phone. But my PI wrote her a glowing rec letter because her dad was good friends with my PI. He was also Chair of a department at the university that would hook my PI up with better services. And my PI wouldn't write a letter for just anyone. There was one guy that volunteered for a year and did experiments all day every day, but she refused to even write him a letter. I couldn't even imagine what her life was like, to have a powerful dad that went to JHU for undergrad and Cornell for MD/PhD. Of course she was on her way to get an MD from a top 10 school and I'm sure that she was smart. But does that mean that she worked harder than everyone else who couldn't get a seat at those schools? I totally don't think so...

When I was in undergrad, I went to pre-med advisors and they said just get a 3.3 and it'll be all good. That's what I did, I thought I'd just have more time to work and to make money to pay for my tuition. Who knew what a struggle it would be to get into med school even when you have good stats? But to have borderline stats... man if only I could turn back time. Some people experience loss of a parent in college, some people experience depression or mental illness, some have financial troubles and this totally takes a hit on your performance. If life were really fair, then someone can make the statement that a student just didn't work hard enough to get into whatever brand name school.

**Sorry for the rant and getting off topic**
 
Interesting responses. I always thought most SDN believed in judging by only scores/cv alone.
 
I hope this somehow doesn't find it way to come back and bite me in the ass but I need to vent because I am tired of the bull****. I have met with several program directors while on my aways and at my own home program who have told me that the name, or lack of a name, of my program will likely hurt me in the match. I scored ~>2 SD on both Step 1 and Step 2 putting me in the >90th percentile, I have received AOA after honoring every single rotation in medical school, I have great LORs and one from a highly regarded institution where I did an away, and yet every time I talk to a PD I can see their excitement over my application fade when it comes to talking about my home program.

What is the point of having standardized testing for Step 1 and Step 2 if you still rely heavily on the "name" of the program for who you pick to be part of your residency.

I am not whining here because I think I will go unmatched or anything. I think my app is pretty strong and I will likely match and match at a decent program. It just pisses me off that many programs will have already written off my application based on the name of my school alone.

I know this will probably never change and it doesn't do any good to worry about it. I can't change where I went to school but its just sad that residency programs still base decisions on something so unimportant. And for one thing, I am proud of my small unknown program. Honestly, after doing aways at two "top 10" programs, the level of teaching and education is pretty similar. I feel like I have been trained very well and it just sucks that most programs will not even give me the chance because they want to boast to each other who has the biggest dick based on how many ivy league students they got.

This was basically just a big long wall of text I needed to write because I feel like **** all today. Because busting my ass for 4 years doesn't mean as much because I wasn't lucky enough to go to a big name for medical school.

Do you think getting AOA at WashU is equal to AOA at Wayne State? That's why it matters, in part.
 
Do you think getting AOA at WashU is equal to AOA at Wayne State? That's why it matters, in part.

Do you think getting a 260 on step 1 matters whether u went to wash u or Wayne State? Step 1 is supposed to be the great equalizer, AOA is a nice cherry on top and whether you get it at wash u or some state school shouldn't diminish the accomplishment since its something only like 15% of medical students get.

I can understand OP frustration but from what I've seen on my interview trail is that whole there is some med school bias from certain programs, mainly in the East Coast, there are plenty of top schools that interview great candidates from all over.
 
Do you think getting a 260 on step 1 matters whether u went to wash u or Wayne State? Step 1 is supposed to be the great equalizer, AOA is a nice cherry on top and whether you get it at wash u or some state school shouldn't diminish the accomplishment since its something only like 15% of medical students get.

I can understand OP frustration but from what I've seen on my interview trail is that whole there is some med school bias from certain programs, mainly in the East Coast, there are plenty of top schools that interview great candidates from all over.

Step 1 isn't an equaliser so much as it is a screening tool and a quick and dirty way of stratifying applicants, really. It's a standardised test and like any other standardised test, how well you do is as much a function of how well you prepared for it as it is a function of how good your fund of knowledge is. While a bad score suggests a sub-par fund of knowledge, getting an extremely high score on step 1 doesn't necessarily mean that a student will make a better clinician.
 
Step 1 isn't an equaliser so much as it is a screening tool and a quick and dirty way of stratifying applicants, really. It's a standardised test and like any other standardised test, how well you do is as much a function of how well you prepared for it as it is a function of how good your fund of knowledge is. While a bad score suggests a sub-par fund of knowledge, getting an extremely high score on step 1 doesn't necessarily mean that a student will make a better clinician.

Exactly. It actually makes a lot of sense if you think about it. Step 1 scores actually show very very little about how prepared someone is to be a clinician. If the student is coming from an institution that is well known to have good training and says that said student would make a good clinician, this carries a lot of weight (especially if a pd has had good experiences with the medical school before). I can easily see why it could be worth more than 20 or even 30 points on step 1. Simply less of a risk
 
Do you think getting a 260 on step 1 matters whether u went to wash u or Wayne State? Step 1 is supposed to be the great equalizer, AOA is a nice cherry on top and whether you get it at wash u or some state school shouldn't diminish the accomplishment since its something only like 15% of medical students get.

I can understand OP frustration but from what I've seen on my interview trail is that whole there is some med school bias from certain programs, mainly in the East Coast, there are plenty of top schools that interview great candidates from all over.

The top 15% at washu are on average going to be much better. I would see it as a much more impressive accomplishment.

And yes the east coast is notorious for regional and medical school name bias. I feel like you almost have to have AOA if you are from even a mid tier school
 
Does this stem from the perceived quality of a schools clinical rotations? I decided to stay at my home institution for 3rd year partly because I heard it was well regarded and other 3rd year option didn't carry the same reputation
 
The top 15% at washu are on average going to be much better. I would see it as a much more impressive accomplishment.

And yes the east coast is notorious for regional and medical school name bias. I feel like you almost have to have AOA if you are from even a mid tier school

This is sadly true. When looking at match lists for lower tier schools, the rockstar matches are mostly just the AOA kids. If you sit down to analyze a match list (whatever that means) have another window open for the AOA website.
 
The top 15% at washu are on average going to be much better. I would see it as a much more impressive accomplishment.

And yes the east coast is notorious for regional and medical school name bias. I feel like you almost have to have AOA if you are from even a mid tier school

It's not an east coast thing. It's a competitive program thing.
 
It's not an east coast thing. It's a competitive program thing.

Not in my experience. New York in particular seemed the worst. Competitive west coast programs don't seem to mind as much. I'm sure it's specialty dependent though
 
Examples please

Well I'm going into peds from a school in the south. CHOP gave significantly less interviews to our school than BRCP (very similar competitiveness) and I have heard down the pipeline that they have more significant regional bias. Pitt might also have some but not as much. Columbia and surprisingly Mt. Sinai seemed to pass over people that were way above what they would need to be competitive at that level of program.
 
Well I'm going into peds from a school in the south. CHOP gave significantly less interviews to our school than BRCP (very similar competitiveness) and I have heard down the pipeline that they have more significant regional bias. Pitt might also have some but not as much. Columbia and surprisingly Mt. Sinai seemed to pass over people that were way above what they would need to be competitive at that level of program.

If there is a difference between CHOP and BCRP, then that means it's not a east coast thing. Those are both east coast.
 
If there is a difference between CHOP and BCRP, then that means it's not a east coast thing. Those are both east coast.

I am aware they are both east coast... I mentioned BCRP as a similarly competitive program that does not seem to have any regional bias (from my personal experience and word of mouth, not sure why). Unfortunately there isn't really a west coast program that is as competitive as CHOP for comparison. Looking at the new york programs, my school got my love from Stanford, UWash and UCSF than Columbia even though the former are more prestigious. Same applies to Pitt.

I'm not saying it's every program in the Northeast. Like I said BCRP and also JHU don't seem to have it.
 
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