Med. School Prestige and Undergrad schools need your help

[masterMood]

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Hi all, I'm posting this question here in the MD forums because I felt that you guys would have a better grasp of things after going through the entire process. I really need your feedback and advise. This might be long, but please bear with me.

Basically, I'm a high school senior who either has the choice of going to a well-known, pretty well-known/prestigious university in the United States or going to my instate school. (Emory University versus State University of New York at Geneseo).

Since my family's e.f.c. is 20,000 dollars, but my dad is willing to pay only up to 15,000 dollars, I have to find 5,000 dollars each year by myself regardless of FAFSA aid.

If this was the case I estimate I will be in loan at Emory University of about 40,000-53,000 dollars (unless my dad decides to help later on, which is a possibility if he does well).

However, SUNY Geneseo costs 15,000 dollars per year, and thus i would have no loan after 4 years.

Now I don't like SUNY Geneseo for several reasons namely being 1) Don't offer scholarships (thus person A with mediocre stats gets in and pays the same as person B who is very well rounded) 2) No NAME/not reputable/well-known 3) not ethnically diverse (i'm Pakistani American) 4) out in the middle of nowhere.

Now I'm very sure i want to go into medicine and unlike in highschool where I had no goals, I have to make a decision where I wil go for the next four years Either Emory University or SUNY.

I have my heart set out to become a doctor and I really want to specialize in a good residency in medicine. This is where I know that better med. schools offer better chances for getting into residencies of your choice. Since SUNY Geneseo isn't really well known, I fear that I can't really shoot that high to med. schools like Tufts, Emory Med, Duke, Harvard, whatever, because of its no-name status. However, Emory University is a very strong university and does have prestige and can possibly give me connections into a strong med. school.

Now I know you guys will say that go where you will get high grades and be at the top of the class, however, SUNY Geneseo is a very tough school as itself, and the amount of work i put into SUNY Geneseo, I fear, will only give me limited results (it doesn't even have any research facilities).


So do I go to Emory University for my undergrad and get a debt of around 40-55k and have my dad possibly pay off some of it if his business starts doing well. OR do i go to my state school that is not well-known, and the fact that I'm ASIAN (makes it harder to get into med. school), equal difficulty in academics, and have much lower chances at top tier med. schools.

Please, can anyone give me advice? If you got this far, thank you for reading this and please impart your knowledge to me!!!

 

[synapse lapse]

Emory without a doubt. The debt probably won't be as high as you anticipate (have you recieved financial aid package yet?) In addition, even 40k is a manageable amount without an M.D. in case your plans change. The difference in opportunities will be noticible, as will the alumni advantages and future employment opportuinites. Luck.

 

[medic170]

School name does not matter that much. Anyway, why don't you just get a job to cover some of the cost along with taking out loans. Pay for it yourself, that's what I did. You are very lucky to get "ONLY" $15,000 from your Dad, my parents gave me about $200 over 4 years 😉 So, go to the better school and get a job 👍 It is called personal responsibility, you have it so good.

 

[wiryMD]

School name does not matter that much. Anyway, why don't you just get a job to cover some of the cost along with taking out loans. Pay for it yourself, that's what I did. You are very lucky to get "ONLY" $15,000 from your Dad, my parents gave me about $200 over 4 years 😉 So, go to the better school and get a job 👍 It is called personal responsibility, you have it so good.

A bit negative wouldn't you say, thanks for pointing out your situation for no reason and not answering the question posed. Debt it debt, and it's good to be thinking about these things. I would not worry about the school name in the least. My medical school would probably be considered mid-tier, and we matched as well or better than many other well known/prestigous schools. If you like Emory more as a school than SUNY then go there or vice-versa.

 

[medic170]

A bit negative wouldn't you say, thanks for pointing out your situation for no reason and not answering the question posed. Debt it debt, and it's good to be thinking about these things. I would not worry about the school name in the least. My medical school would probably be considered mid-tier, and we matched as well or better than many other well known/prestigous schools. If you like Emory more as a school than SUNY then go there or vice-versa.

What are you talking about? Not answering the question? Did you read my post. I told him:
1 School name is not that important
2. If he wants to go, he could get a job to minimize the amount of debt he incurrs.

What do you mean I was negative and did not answer his question? I certainly did answer him, learn to read better.

 

[Furrball]

A strong applicant is a strong applicant. Also sometimes the small state school will provide more TLC than the big-name school. Don't underestimate faculty that cares and enjoys having a student who is interested. Helpful hint, never tell professor that you need a good grade for medical school applications, they will write you off; nobody likes to feel that they are merely being used. Interact with the professors and material for its own sake, enjoy college as a time to learn not as a ticket to med school. You will get more out of it and you will be paying for it.

Debt: private medical schools are running $25K to $40K per year, and some state schools too. You will also take about another $15K in loans for living expenses per year. So you are looking at anywhere from $200K to $300 K in debt when you get out med school. Add on another $50K from Emory and wow, I hope you weren't planning a career in primary care. Also you should start saving for the cost of applying to med school. I spent $5K five years ago.

Now that you are depressed, take a hard look at the two schools. Would you be absolutely miserable at SUNY? Will attending Emory be a goal in and of itself? In the end, I would recommend that you do what your gut tells you.

 

[synapse lapse]

Debt: private medical schools are running $25K to $40K per year, and some state schools too. You will also take about another $15K in loans for living expenses per year. So you are looking at anywhere from $200K to $300 K in debt when you get out med school. Add on another $50K from Emory and wow, I hope you weren't planning a career in primary care. Also you should start saving for the cost of applying to med school. I spent $5K five years ago.

NO way will you have anywhere near that much debt ($300k?!). Dude, even the average debt from a private medical school is $150k. $50k from a top undergrad is not a bad investment at all, and as I said, still a manageable amount without an MD.

 

[LAZYGUY]

Wow, I cannot believe how OFF some of the previous posters are. It seems that you are concerned about getting yourself into so much debt...this is good. Some people write it off as a "minor issue"...there is nothing minor in a $200,000 undergraduate debt. Or for that matter suggesting that someone take on such a debt (vs. a debt free option) for the chance to match at a "better school".

Furthermore, if getting into a prestigious medical school is your goal, you will be surprised to know that some of the top schools have many students from podunk schools. Its not like harvard is only going to accept their own. Many students have opportunties to gain acceptance into these same schools but choose to attend state schools for cost reasons. Why? Because an MD from harvard and an MD from X-state school will get reimbursed the SAME....regardless of where they trained. Last I checked, we all took the same licensing boards? You also can't disqualify the caliber of students that are found in these schools. Geez I know of some students in my class that had an opportunity to go prestigious schools but still chose their state school.
Lately there have been many posts concerning the medical school prestige issue. This is NOT directed at any particular individual but just my opinion on the issue. I think some individuals fool themselves into a rationale that only graduates of "good" schools can attain competitive specialties when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. Just look at the match lists and you will see students from "bad" schools matching into ortho, derm, rads.

I have 0 debt, zero! I will probably keep it like that because of the choices I have made. I could care less about prestige and could care less what others think of me. All I want to be is a good physician and I will become one out of MY OWN MERIT and not because of the name of the school that I attend.

Lastly, there are many more cost effective things you can do to improve your application to be competitive for these schools. GPA, MCAT, RESEARCH, LETTERS, PEOPLE SKILLS, VOLUNTEERING.

Good luck and think carefully about your decision.

 

[doc05]

I have my heart set out to become a doctor and I really want to specialize in a good residency in medicine. This is where I know that better med. schools offer better chances for getting into residencies of your choice. Since SUNY Geneseo isn't really well known, I fear that I can't really shoot that high to med. schools like Tufts, Emory Med, Duke, Harvard, whatever, because of its no-name status. However, Emory University is a very strong university and does have prestige and can possibly give me connections into a strong med. school.

first off, Tufts med is not anywhere near the same caliber as Emory, Duke, or HMS.

As far as undergrad, I suggest Emory. Basically because a degree from there will make you more marketable after 4 years should you decide to pursue something else. A degree from Geneseo isn't exactly that impressive, and noone will care why you chose the school (cost).

Some people will note that at many med schools, even the top ones, there are students who went to podunk U-type undergrads. that's true. but -- when you're coming from a top undergrad, you'll have a definite advantage; while it is possible to get into med school coming from podunk U, you'll be at a major disadvantage. students coming from premiere undergrads get in at a much better rate. even when 2 applicants are otherwise identical (same gpa, mcat, etc), the emory grad will have the advantage.

 

[LAZYGUY]

even when 2 applicants are otherwise identical (same gpa, mcat, etc), the emory grad will have the advantage.

yeah, minus $200,000 dollars later.

So is this equivalent to buying your way in?

 

[synapse lapse]

yeah, minus $200,000 dollars later.

So is this equivalent to buying your way in?

WTF, where do you get 200k. The OP specifically said he wouldh ave about 40 - 55k in debt, not 200. And buying your way in??? Any private school, prestigious or not costs more than state school, and many attend the 100's of private colleges and universities around the nation that aren't prestigious and pay a lot to do so. Besides, buying your way in how, you certainly have to work very hard to get into the top undergrad and medical schools, so you aren't buying anything, except a good education. Save it, not to mention that it's always the people that don't/didn't go to the top schools that say that undergrad doesn't matter. Yeah, look at acceptance lists to those top med schools, you'll see80%+ from top undergrads, and that's just an emperical fact. Ask your friends that go to top undergrads how it has impacted them ( both in medicine and in other fields) and they will tell you. As another poster says, if OP doesn't go to med school an Emory degree is far more marketable.

 

[LAZYGUY]

huh

WTF, where do you get 200k. The OP specifically said he wouldh ave about 40 - 55k in debt, not 200. And buying your way in??? Any private school, prestigious or not costs more than state school, and many attend the 100's of private colleges and universities around the nation that aren't prestigious and pay a lot to do so. Besides, buying your way in how, you certainly have to work very hard to get into the top undergrad and medical schools, so you aren't buying anything, except a good education. Save it, not to mention that it's always the people that don't/didn't go to the top schools that say that undergrad doesn't matter. Yeah, look at acceptance lists to those top med schools, you'll see80%+ from top undergrads, and that's just an emperical fact. Ask your friends that go to top undergrads how it has impacted them ( both in medicine and in other fields) and they will tell you. As another poster says, if OP doesn't go to med school an Emory degree is far more marketable.

 

[Furrball]

NO way will you have anywhere near that much debt ($300k?!). Dude, even the average debt from a private medical school is $150k. $50k from a top undergrad is not a bad investment at all, and as I said, still a manageable amount without an MD.

Starting next year in state and out of state tuition at OHSU is $37k per year. Add $17,280 for living expenses is $217,120. Now figure that medical school prices will continue to increase: OHSU in state tuition was $16,000ish per year when I started medical school four years ago. Private schools were $36,0000 per year when I was applying five years ago. My debt for a state school as a resident is $150,000. Maybe 300 was an exageration, but not that much of one, 217 + 60 = 277. A friend of mine who graduate from Tufts last year took out $60K a year in loans: 4x 60K = $240,000. And she is a FP resident now. One of my interns this year graduated from George Washington a year ago with $250,000 in debt from med school alone. Unless you have a source of money outside of loans, you can and should expect massive debt --MD. Also doesn't change the point that thinking ahead to his over all debt load when he is done is smart.

 

[synapse lapse]

Starting next year in state and out of state tuition at OHSU is $37k per year. Add $17,280 for living expenses is $217,120. Now figure that medical school prices will continue to increase: OHSU in state tuition was $16,000ish per year when I started medical school four years ago. Private schools were $36,0000 per year when I was applying five years ago. My debt for a state school as a resident is $150,000. Maybe 300 was an exageration, but not that much of one, 217 + 60 = 277. A friend of mine who graduate from Tufts last year took out $60K a year in loans: 4x 60K = $240,000. And she is a FP resident now. One of my interns this year graduated from George Washington a year ago with $250,000 in debt from med school alone. Unless you have a source of money outside of loans, you can and should expect massive debt --MD. Also doesn't change the point that thinking ahead to his over all debt load when he is done is smart.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/5349.html

There you go, $115,218 average debt for 2004 class including undergraduate debt.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/15/debt_report.pdf

Check page 5 of the above link directly from the 1st site which is the AMA Task Force on Medical Student Debt, Final Draft. As you can see, in 2004 medical students from private schools graduated with an average of $130k, adjust for todays rate and we around $150k for average private medical school debt. A good half of your initial $300k estimate. You anecdotal evidence of your friend who somehow borrowed $60k a year for school is ridiculous. I stand by my statement and point at that I clearly took a debt consideration into account when giving advice.

 

[quideam]

I definetely have to say that you should go with Emory. I went to my state school for undergrad, and though I was accepted to several fairly prestigious med schools, I would definetely say that it was harder for me than for people coming out of 'better' undergrads.

That being said, there is another point to consider here besides ease of getting into medical school later on. If you go to a state school, you will meet some smart people - some very smart people - but the majority will not be like this. A state school (especially a smaller, unknown one) will not draw the best and the brightest (in general), and so the caliber of the students that you will interact with will differ greatly from those you would encounter at a more elite university. Coming from a state school and now being at a very good medical school, I can tell you this honestly, even if it sounds elitist - the people that you meet at top schools will make your experience there much, much better (intellectually, socially, etc).

Good luck with your decision - I've had similar choices, and in retrospect, I'm glad I went with the more prestigious med school and sometimes wish I had also gone with the more prestigious undergrad.

Quid

 

[phoenixsupra]

OP you make me want to

 

[synapse lapse]

OP you make me want to

What's with that? He wants some advice and he got it. You upset about not going to a top undergrad or what?

 

[Mutterkuchen]

As you can see, in 2004 medical students from private schools graduated with an average of $130k, adjust for todays rate and we around $150k for average private medical school debt. A good half of your initial $300k estimate. You anecdotal evidence of your friend who somehow borrowed $60k a year for school is ridiculous.

There is nothing anecdotal about this. $200,000 to $300,000 is a very reasonable estimate for the class of 2010. The 2004 data is old. You must look into the future. Also, the average has factors that bring the price down. Parents footing the bill and the military scholarship being the main ones.

If your Dad is not going to be footing the medical school bill and you are not going into the military, $250,000 will be the norm. Plus undergraduate debt!

 

[Axe]

There are better SUNY campuses than SUNY Geneseo. Just transfer out of the first year/semester and go to SUNY Bing or Stony Brook.

Your decision making process is kind of odd to me. Subpar public school campus vs. some random private school in the south. I wouldnt even use Coke U and prestigious in the same sentence.

Also you seem to have an elitist attitude and its not even deserved.

 

[MD'05]

Bottom line: choose the undergraduate university with the name; that would be Emory. You will benefit in the long run despite the increased cost of your education.

 

[masterMood]

thanks for all the comments. I think I will go to Emory University instead of Suny Geneseo.

When i meant 40-50,000 dollars that was the total amount i meant after graduating from Emory undergrad.


Axe, sorry if i sounded elitist. I'm not saying that SUNY Geneseo is a bad school, it just never fit me, imo. I know its a tough school and a very strong liberal arts education but like most lacs it barely has any resources and its basically known by people in NYS alone.

Couple that with thte fact that I'm not a urm minority that makes thigns harder as I am the majority come by med. school admissions.

Thanks for all the advice and input!

 

[omarsaleh66]

haha u sound alot like me. I am a paki-american and I got into Emory out of highschool but I didnt go cuz it was too expensive. So i decided it would either be Millsaps College or the University of Texas at Austin. I ended up going to UT, and what I realized was that u can make the most out of any situation. I did ok on my MCAT and ended up w 12 med school interviews all over the country. Again, i picked the cheapest med school. I got waitlisted at Baylor and UTSW and I think it was cuz of my low MCAT score (by their standards) so in the end i think it comes down to the MCAT and some good extracurricular activities. Yeah there is more opportunity at Emory but if u look hard u can do some cool stuff at SUNY. If not, u could always go somewhere in NY and shadow docs or do some medical related research at SUNY med schools or somehting...

I think schools dont matter as much as MCAT in my personal opinion, so my advice is to go somewhere as cheap as possible for undergrad and med school, and then go somewhere nice for residency. As long as u have a solid GPA wherever u go and do well on standardized tests and do some extracurriculars (u can do this anywhere, u just have to look), there is no sense in incurring so much debt in undergrad or med school.

Most docs go into private practice anyways so it really doesnt matter where u go for residency. Now if u want to be the chair at Mass General then maybe u might wanna go to Emory and then to some big name med school... but for private practice it doenst matter.

later

 

[omarsaleh66]

thanks for all the comments. I think I will go to Emory University instead of Suny Geneseo.

When i meant 40-50,000 dollars that was the total amount i meant after graduating from Emory undergrad.


Axe, sorry if i sounded elitist. I'm not saying that SUNY Geneseo is a bad school, it just never fit me, imo. I know its a tough school and a very strong liberal arts education but like most lacs it barely has any resources and its basically known by people in NYS alone.

Couple that with thte fact that I'm not a urm minority that makes thigns harder as I am the majority come by med. school admissions.

Thanks for all the advice and input!

oh whoops, i didnt see this. Well good luck in Emory. Either way u are gonna be alright. Atlanta is awesome. I am goign to applying there for residency for sure cuz I wanna stay in the south

holler

 

[Mutterkuchen]

I do think that school reputation plays some role in getting into certain medical schools. I don't know if Emory really is in the "top tier" schools, though and I don't know how much it would help. A little maybe.

I personally went to Noname Midwestern State University. I am currently in medical school. Other, smarter, students in my undergrad class went to Wash U medical school, Johns Hopkins, Vandy, Yale, and several other medical schools. These students got good grades, got good MCATS, and did other interesting things like research and travel. The bottom line is that good applicants get into good medical schools, no matter where they went to undergrad.

 

[pillowhead]

There are better SUNY campuses than SUNY Geneseo. Just transfer out of the first year/semester and go to SUNY Bing or Stony Brook.

Your decision making process is kind of odd to me. Subpar public school campus vs. some random private school in the south. I wouldnt even use Coke U and prestigious in the same sentence.

Also you seem to have an elitist attitude and its not even deserved.

talk about elitist attitude. I know Emory is not an ivy, but it's pretty well ranked, and the med school is a top 20. do you refer to tufts, boston univ, boston college, etc as random private schools in the north? or northwestern and univ of chicago as random private schools in the midwest?

 

[doc05]

another thing to think about: would you be comfortable in atlanta as a pakistani-american? the southern states tend to be somewhat less, er... progressive.

 

[phoenixsupra]

What's with that? He wants some advice and he got it. You upset about not going to a top undergrad or what?

Yeah, that's it 🙄 👍

 

[masterMood]

another thing to think about: would you be comfortable in atlanta as a pakistani-american? the southern states tend to be somewhat less, er... progressive.

Yeah Atlanta is very liberal, au contraire with most of the South. And Emory University has like 20 percent Asians which is pretty good (6500 undergrad students, thus 1300 people similar to me).

I liked Emory because it was a strong school acadeimcally, great resources, not as cutthroat at schools like Johns Hopkins or Northwestern, the people were pretty chill. Better weather down South then up here in dreary NY, blah.

 

[pillowhead]

another thing to think about: would you be comfortable in atlanta as a pakistani-american? the southern states tend to be somewhat less, er... progressive.

some data regarding the indian population in Georgia down below. i would assume the pakistani population mirrors the indian population. For goodness sake, Emory is in the middle of Atlanta, not the delta of Mississippi or something. Emory itself seems to have a very large and active Indian/Pakistani student body. I went to high school in Atlanta, and my high school had a large Indian population. My old apartment was right across the street from the Indian Cultural Center and was surrounded by all sorts of fun vegetarian Indian restaurants and a couple of Pakistani owned halal grocers.


According to the results of Census 2000, the states that experienced the most rapid growth in their foreign-born populations from India include Idaho (517 percent), Oregon (419 percent), and Colorado (400 percent), followed by Georgia (271 percent), Washington (268 percent), Minnesota (260 percent), Wyoming (241 percent), Kentucky (221 percent), North Dakota (206 percent), and Nevada (193 percent).


In addition to a large percent change, Georgia was also among the 10 states with the largest numeric increases in their Indian immigrant populations between 1990 and 2000.

Census 2000 shows that the foreign-born population from India in Georgia increased from 7,511 in 1990 to 27,834 in 2000, representing a 271 percent increase. Among all states and the District of Columbia, Georgia ranked seventh in the numeric growth and fourth in the percent growth of its Indian immigrant population.