Med School rankings... A better method...

[proudofmykids]

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Has anyone noticed how much movement there has been in USNews med school rankings for many individual schools across years? This can happen for a variety of reasons, including lobbying by schools for different weighting or adding new factors that would benefit them.

This movement is very easy to observe, especially in T20 schools.
Borrowinging from financial analysis methods of smoothing varying data, Wouldn't a better method be to report only ~10year moving average rankings by USNews, instead of them publishing discrete yearly measurements?

 

[premed20172017]

I agree with you. I do think, however, that rankings don't always reflect how "good" a school is for a particular student. Just because it's a T20 doesn't mean it's the right school for someone just because they have competitive stats. I think people get wrapped up in rankings too often.

 

[993444]

It gives people something to get all riled up about.

 

[Goro]

Has anyone noticed how much movement there has been in USNews med school rankings for many individual schools across years? This can happen for a variety of reasons, including lobbying by schools for different weighting or adding new factors that would benefit them.

This movement is very easy to observe, especially in T20 schools.
Borrowinging from financial analysis methods of smoothing varying data, Wouldn't a better method be to report only ~10year moving average rankings by USNews, instead of them publishing discrete yearly measurements?

the only people who care about these things are pre-meds, and medical school Deans

 

[907914]

the only people who care about these things are pre-meds, and medical school Deans

Do premeds really care about these things though? I figured we just threw our apps at schools where our stats match. Are applicants just hopelessly oblivious to the function of reality that they throw money at 'top schools' just because someone says they are a top school? Like...I had never even heard of well over half of my schools until I saw I matched with them on MSAR...

 

[proudofmykids]

You would be surprised how much applicants care. Just look at last year's pages of thead Help Me Decide threads.

 

[907914]

thead Help Me Decide threads

I guess I can see this. If I hopefully get the opportunity to make one of those threads, there is one school that comes to mind where the only pro is "Am I as a premed ethically allowed to turn down *School*"

 

[Moko]

Whether it's a yearly measurement vs moving average, the end result is still the same. It still artificially ranks schools based on measures that do not necessarily reflect the quality of education, and still incentivizes schools to influence the weight of each component. Using moving averages simply muddies the data by forcing applicants to rely on potentially outdated information from many years ago (think of moving averages in the stock markets).

 

[907914]

Whether it's a yearly measurement vs moving average, the end result is still the same. It still artificially ranks schools based on measures that do not necessarily reflect the quality of education, and still incentivizes schools to influence the weight of each component. Using moving averages simply muddies the data by forcing applicants to rely on potentially outdated information from many years ago (think of moving averages in the stock markets).

What we need to do is keep track of the 10 year post-residency malpractice and/or wrongful death lawsuits for every physician and put together a rankings list based on “least suits per billed clinical hour” and another list of 10 year salary post residency. Those would be the two lists that tells you which schools produce a) the best doctors and b) the best investment for a student.

 

[Goro]

Do premeds really care about these things though? I figured we just through our apps at schools where our stats match. Are applicants just hopelessly oblivious to the function of reality that they throw money at 'top schools' just because someone says they are a top school? Like...I had never even heard of well over half of my schools until I saw I matched with them on MSAR...

How long have you been on SDN??????????

 

[907914]

How long have you been on SDN??????????

Like 2 years. But I really only interact on here with other high stats applicants so I only see people applying to these places because they can not because of the name. Is there stuff that my tunnel vision and egocentrism is missing?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Do premeds really care about these things though?

You're kidding right?

 

[Orangekiwi]

Like 2 years. But I really only interact on here with other high stats applicants so I only see people applying to these places because they can not because of the name. Is there stuff that my tunnel vision and egocentrism is missing?

 

[KnightDoc]

the only people who care about these things are pre-meds, and medical school Deans

... and, apparently by the OP, parents! 🙂

 

[proudofmykids]

... and, apparently by the OP, parents! 🙂

Some do. My daughter plans on using COA as a major factor in her decision. It is my understanding that Excelling in your program is major determinant for residency match more so than ranking. So if it means going to a T50 state school over a T10 school for a $150k difference it is a real possibility.

 

[Cornfed101]

Some do. My daughter plans on using COA as a major factor in her decision. It is my understanding that Excelling in your program is major determinant for residency match more so than ranking. So if it means going to a T50 state school over a T10 school for a $150k difference it is a real possibility.

Tuition or COA? You have to pay all of tuition, you don’t have to use all of COA if you don’t need to

 

[DNAJB6]

Has anyone noticed how much movement there has been in USNews med school rankings for many individual schools across years? This can happen for a variety of reasons, including lobbying by schools for different weighting or adding new factors that would benefit them.

This movement is very easy to observe, especially in T20 schools.
Borrowinging from financial analysis methods of smoothing varying data, Wouldn't a better method be to report only ~10year moving average rankings by USNews, instead of them publishing discrete yearly measurements?

We could also trash the US News and World Report all together and look at other more important factors like median Step 1 scores, median Step 2 scores, the percentage of students who match in their chosen fields, student happiness, student graduation rates, research impact and grants, etc.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Another parent who sees some value in rankings but also looks at overall value. Mine gave up 2 top 10 UG admissions for T20 school with merit. I would check residency matchings as one criteria for medical school if he gets good acceptances next cycle.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Has anyone noticed how much movement there has been in USNews med school rankings for many individual schools across years? This can happen for a variety of reasons, including lobbying by schools for different weighting or adding new factors that would benefit them.

This movement is very easy to observe, especially in T20 schools.
Borrowinging from financial analysis methods of smoothing varying data, Wouldn't a better method be to report only ~10year moving average rankings by USNews, instead of them publishing discrete yearly measurements?

No. Their motivation isn't about accuracy or quality data, it is about selling the magazine. Without enough changes, people stop paying attention ...

Another reason why USnews isn't all that important

 

[candbgirl]

Do premeds really care about these things though? I figured we just through our apps at schools where our stats match. Are applicants just hopelessly oblivious to the function of reality that they throw money at 'top schools' just because someone says they are a top school? Like...I had never even heard of well over half of my schools until I saw I matched with them on MSAR...

But that’s you. Realistic, confident, smart, you do your research etc. Read the threads on here where people have stats barely compatible with MD schools and it’s T10 or nothing. So yes, lots of premeds care.

 

[Med Ed]

We could also trash the US News and World Report all together and look at other more important factors like median Step 1 scores, median Step 2 scores, the percentage of students who match in their chosen fields, student happiness, student graduation rates, research impact and grants, etc.

This approach would be even worse. Median Step scores would push the big four Caribbean schools higher than many US schools. It would also ignore the fact that schools like Mississippi and Brody have completely different missions than Wash U and Stanford. This would be reflected in the graduation rates, as well. Percentage of students matching into their chosen fields must account for the degree of self-selection that goes on prior to choosing a specialty. Research grants are already a huge factor in the USNWR rankings, but don't really have direct bearing on the quality of a given school's education program.

There is no way to comprehensively rank medical schools, but as long as it generates revenue...

 

[proudofmykids]

Tuition or COA? You have to pay all of tuition, you don’t have to use all of COA if you don’t need to

I’m not sure what you are asking / saying.
Why I say COA, it is the actual COA (tuition+living) for the individual, not what the school estimates.

 

[907914]

Tuition or COA? You have to pay all of tuition, you don’t have to use all of COA if you don’t need to

COA = cost of attendance
COL = cost of living

Using COA is a great strategy as it assumes the maximum loans you will have to take out. Considering tuition price isn’t everything either. Take NYU for instance. If I had an acceptance to NYU and an acceptance to Washington State University, I would go with WSU because, despite free tuition, paying for housing, school, and transport in NYC for a family of 3 would still cost more than full tuition, housing, transport, etc. in Spokane, WA.

I agree, @proudofmykids, COA is an excellent tool to use.

 

[KnightDoc]

Some do. My daughter plans on using COA as a major factor in her decision. It is my understanding that Excelling in your program is major determinant for residency match more so than ranking. So if it means going to a T50 state school over a T10 school for a $150k difference it is a real possibility.

Then I guess rankings don't really matter to you, so why make the OP?

 

[907914]

Read the threads on here where people have stats barely compatible with MD schools and it’s T10 or nothing. So yes, lots of premeds care.

I guess I just tend to stay away from the WAMC forums because most of it just feels like“3.9/519, will I ever get an MD?” Will definitely peruse and gain a better idea of most other applicants motivations for medicine.

 

[Cornfed101]

COA = cost of attendance
COL = cost of living

Using COA is a great strategy as it assumes the maximum loans you will have to take out. Considering tuition price isn’t everything either. Take NYU for instance. If I had an acceptance to NYU and an acceptance to Washington State University, I would go with WSU because, despite free tuition, paying for housing, school, and transport in NYC for a family of 3 would still cost more than full tuition, housing, transport, etc. in Spokane, WA.

I agree, @proudofmykids, COA is an excellent tool to use.

What I’m trying to say is that is not a perfect science. Let me give an example (COA is minus tuition, fees are comparable)

NYU COA : $31891
RVUCOM COA: $36482

Cost of living index in NYC is nearly 50% more than Denver. This is the point I was trying to make. I would expect much more people to take out full COA at NYU than RVUCOM, and with a family of 4 the $1800 per month rent in Denver is a very comfortable allowance

 

[Select All That Apply]

Only a parent would obsess over something something so trivial.

 

[proudofmykids]

Then I guess rankings don't really matter to you, so why make the OP?

I don’t recall saying that, but I’ll bight.
At some smaller financial COA delta, school ranking in the decision could easily come into play.
Memlords example is excellent.
And if there is no State admit to consider, the deltas can become pretty minimal.
Additionally, the significance of the delta is offset by desired area of medicine with different areas having vastly different career earnings potential.

 

[proudofmykids]

Only a parent would obsess over something something so trivial.

That’s pretty funny. Have you not looked at the Help Me Decide pages and pages of threads whose posters don’t seem to think rankings are trivial for various reasons.

 

[Lawpy]

the only people who care about these things are pre-meds, and medical school Deans

and SDN preallo! i'm pretty sure there have been thousands and thousands of threads over the years that passionately argue over US News rankings, discuss random detailed analyses on methodology and alternatives, and write massive walls of text justifying why prestige is good vs bad (especially in those absurd arguments on going to Harvard at full cost vs UCLA for free or something). SDN preallo is innately obsessed with rankings and prestige that they practically can't exist without them.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

That’s pretty funny. Have you not looked at the Help Me Decide pages and pages of threads whose posters don’t seem to think rankings are trivial for various reasons.

some don't like parents participation on SDN, hence comments like only parents care about rankings.

 

[Engrailed]

i find this thread absurd, and most of OP’s posts are cringe-worthy. Parents shouldnt be doing their kids’ homework.
I have no regrets about using the “ignore” function on sdn. #ByeFelicia

 

[907914]

prestige that they practically can't exist without them.

I wouldn’t say that preallo can’t exist without the prestige notions...Again, will use myself as an example - I have been here almost 2 years and didn’t realize that prestige actually mattered THAT much. I am likely just oblivious...but still

Granted, my Harvard Facebook post got like 30 likes but no one cares about Umich...so I guess I knew prestige mattered to people outside of premeds?

 

[Lawpy]

I wouldn’t say that preallo can’t exist without the prestige notions...Again, will use myself as an example - I have been here almost 2 years and didn’t realize that prestige actually mattered THAT much. I am likely just oblivious...but still

Granted, my Harvard Facebook post got like 30 likes but no one cares about Umich...so I guess I knew prestige mattered to people outside of premeds?

It's strikingly evident. You can look at X vs Y help me decide forum for examples.

 

[907914]

It's strikingly evident. You can look at X vs Y help me decide forum for examples.

There’s a specific forum for that? I knew there was a WAMC that I don’t really visit....Huh ok, will go look

 

[openstage]

Just to add my two cents...It’s popular to look down upon the US News rankings, but a few things come to mind. 1. With the time and cost of applying to 2 dozen schools, it’s natural that families would be looking for some kind starting point to judge qualities. Similar to when people read about a car on consumer reports. I know that’s a superficial analogy, but you get the idea! 2. I think it’s hard for the novice student to evaluate the pros and cons of schools hundreds or thousands of miles away. However, once we’re all in the midst of the application cycle, using the MSAR, SDN, match lists, school magazines and publications of research, and commentary by actual med students, we see there is so much else to utilize.

 

[KnightDoc]

I don’t recall saying that, but I’ll bight.
At some smaller financial COA delta, school ranking in the decision could easily come into play.
Memlords example is excellent.
And if there is no State admit to consider, the deltas can become pretty minimal.
Additionally, the significance of the delta is offset by desired area of medicine with different areas having vastly different career earnings potential.

So all you're really saying is that you care a lot about COA, not that random rankings don't matter. They clearly matter a lot to you, maybe just not as much as money, depending on the money and the relative rankings of the schools in question. It also sounds like you are super frustrated by the variability in random rankings from year to year, leaving you not knowing whether you are coming or going, since a very desirable school one year is all of a sudden less so the next, based solely on how a magazine tabulates a dataset. 🙂

Good thing this really doesn't affect you at all at the end of the day, since it isn't your life and you are not the one doing the work. How does your daughter feel, and how important is that relative to ranking and COA? 🙂

You might want to use some of your free time to calculate 10-year moving averages of all metrics that are important to you, and then report your findings back to the group along with a detailed variance analysis, comparing USNWR rankings to all other available rankings. I, for one, would really appreciate it.

 

[proudofmykids]

i find this thread absurd, and most of OP’s posts are cringe-worthy. Parents shouldnt be doing their kids’ homework.
I have no regrets about using the “ignore” function on sdn.

Your post is pretty humorous, you indicate you used the ignore button which I certainly encourage, yet here you are posting on a thread This “ignoree” started.

 

[proudofmykids]

So all you're really saying is that you care a lot about COA, not that random rankings don't matter. They clearly matter a lot to you, maybe just not as much as money, depending on the money and the relative rankings of the schools in question. It also sounds like you are super frustrated by the variability in random rankings from year to year, leaving you not knowing whether you are coming or going, since a very desirable school one year is all of a sudden less so the next, based solely on how a magazine tabulates a dataset. 🙂

Good thing this really doesn't affect you at all at the end of the day, since it isn't your life and you are not the one doing the work. How does your daughter feel, and how important is that relative to ranking and COA? 🙂

You might want to use some of your free time to calculate 10-year moving averages of all metrics that are important to you, and then report your findings back to the group along with a detailed variance analysis, comparing USNWR rankings to all other available rankings. I, for one, would really appreciate it.

Nice summary. I bet it isn’t that different from the way many members on SDN feel. I said it would be nice to have multi year analysis, I guess we’ll have to wait for some ambitious premed to come along and do it.
My daughter has similar thoughts as I do about the COA / ranking trade off, but only after she judges ‘fit’ and ‘feel’. She had to similarly decide on her undergrad selection in this exact fashion.

 

[Lucca]

As far as methodologies go, the quickest and dirtiest way is to look at the Residency Program director ranking and USNWR side by side, as in the list below.

Redirect Notice

Objectively prestige matters at every stage of training/education in academia. How much and to what extent depends on an individual student’s goals in addition to how well connected they are at baseline.

Measuring “quality of education” is much harder, but if it were to be done it should depend on a variety of factors like the quality of clinical clerkships, student wellness, match outcomes, etc. and not preclinical education. I dont think looking at average step 1 is particularly useful measure of anything.

 

[Cornfed101]

Measuring “quality of education” is much harder, but if it were to be done it should depend on a variety of factors like the quality of clinical clerkships, student wellness, match outcomes, etc. and not preclinical education. I dont think looking at average step 1 is particularly useful measure of anything.

I've realized after visiting a few schools (and reading awesome interview threads from @Goro) that basically every med school is going to help you pass the boards. The real difference is with clinical rotations. Are there multiple locations? What electives/specialties are available? Are locations up to lottery? If it is a lottery can you switch after receiving an assignment? Preceptor or ward-based? Etc. Etc.

 

[MyOdyssey]

As far as methodologies go, the quickest and dirtiest way is to look at the Residency Program director ranking and USNWR side by side, as in the list below.

Redirect Notice

Objectively prestige matters at every stage of training/education in academia. How much and to what extent depends on an individual student’s goals in addition to how well connected they are at baseline.

Measuring “quality of education” is much harder, but if it were to be done it should depend on a variety of factors like the quality of clinical clerkships, student wellness, match outcomes, etc. and not preclinical education. I dont think looking at average step 1 is particularly useful measure of anything.

USNWR values admittee stats more than does the PD rankings.

 

[deleted987519]

There’s a specific forum for that? I knew there was a WAMC that I don’t really visit....Huh ok, will go look

Bro you are on here ~30 hours/day how did you not know this

 

[907914]

Bro you are on here ~30 hours/day how did you not know this

I only visit the parts of this site that benefit me or I can be benefit others. I don’t have need for X vs Y yet and I don’t know enough about different schools to give advice on them, so i guess I just haven’t happened across it.

 

[Lucca]

to elaborate on my point about prestige...

when I was going on second looks one of the graduating M4 MD/PhDs (so more like M8) on a panel said something that I found pretty significant at the time re: deciding b/w schools (which is rly the only time the question of comparing schools comes up; most applicants will not have that luxury). They said "go where you think you will grow the most". Reflecting on that, I think it's good advice. What "growth" means to you will depend on many things.

If you are thinking of settling down and starting a family then maybe your growth would best be supported by going to the cheapest school so you aren't as burdened with debt right as you decide to have children, or maybe you should pick the school in the location youd most like to stay long term with your partner.

If you are passionate about research and want to be the best possible physician scientist you can be, then maybe you should care most about opportunities for research, how much and how high students are publishing, how supportive the research departments are and what kind of intellectual community there is at the institution in addition to looking at how similarly minded students are able to continue those aspirations into residency by matching at high-powered academic institutions.

Etc. etc. etc. You have to know yourself and that could be really hard if you're 21 or really easy if you're the type that's already tried a totally different career or had more life experiences up to that point. That said, it's certain that no magazine is going to tell you the answer no matter how comprehensive its ranking system is.