Med Student Debt

[EM2013]

Graduating MS4 here.

Feeling overwhelmed by the amount of loans I have to pay back. Parents were kind enough to pay for my college and a few med school interest payments but the rest is on me. I owe close to 200k.

Anyone else anxious about this?

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[Smokemont]

Graduating MS4 here.

Feeling overwhelmed by the amount of loans I have to pay back. Parents were kind enough to pay for my college and a few med school interest payments but the rest is on me. I owe close to 200k.

Anyone else anxious about this?

Of course people are anxious about this crazy debt. With 200k you will be fine. Live cheap in residency and start making payments asap. With your attending salary make bigger payments. You are not alone and you will be fine.

 

[yehhhboiii]

The median salary is 45k and you can live off of 10k a year. Stop complaining, you're gonna be a rich doctor and so many people have a ton of loans so count yourself as being lucky. Cut out all the luxuries in your life, you don't need to see that movie or hang out with your friends. If you really cared about helping people, you wouldn't even be thinking about money. I wish medical schools would only take people like me who love taking care of peo...hahaha just kidding.



I'm worried too. It's an enormous sum but we're here in the same boat. Good luck in residency.

 

[notbobtrustme]

It's really not that bad. It looks daunting, but your first paycheck as an attending will fix everything.

I'd only really be concerned if you start hitting that 300k mark; then you got to start worrying.

 

[evilbooyaa]

The median salary is 45k and you can live off of 10k a year. Stop complaining, you're gonna be a rich doctor and so many people have a ton of loans so count yourself as being lucky. Cut out all the luxuries in your life, you don't need to see that movie or hang out with your friends. If you really cared about helping people, you wouldn't even be thinking about money. I wish medical schools would only take people like me who love taking care of peo...hahaha just kidding.



I'm worried too. It's an enormous sum but we're here in the same boat. Good luck in residency.

LOL I was about to leave an angry post. Well played, sir.

To OP, some people who did a year of masters prior to school, or didn't have parents paying for their undergrad can have upwards of 400k in debt, so just be glad that isn't you! You'll be OK with 200k.

 

[ucladoc2b]

The median salary is 45k and you can live off of 10k a year. Stop complaining, you're gonna be a rich doctor and so many people have a ton of loans so count yourself as being lucky. Cut out all the luxuries in your life, you don't need to see that movie or hang out with your friends. If you really cared about helping people, you wouldn't even be thinking about money. I wish medical schools would only take people like me who love taking care of peo...hahaha just kidding.



I'm worried too. It's an enormous sum but we're here in the same boat. Good luck in residency.

Yes. And that to earn that 45K, you'll only have to work 80 hours a week. Think of all of the senior doctors now who had to work 205 hours a week (despite the fact there are only 168 hours in a week). It's such a deal! Residents/med students have it so easy these days...

 

[Smokemont]

Yes. And that to earn that 45K, you'll only have to work 80 hours a week. Think of all of the senior doctors now who had to work 205 hours a week (despite the fact there are only 168 hours in a week). It's such a deal! Residents/med students have it so easy these days...

Can't tell if you're serious, but yes, compared to older docs we will have it easy. It's called residency for a reason.

 

[ucladoc2b]

Can't tell if you're serious, but yes, compared to older docs we will have it easy. It's called residency for a reason.

What makes you think that residency is easier for younger docs compared to doctors training 25 years ago?

Depends on when the doctor trained. The acuity of the average admitted patient has increased significantly and will require more labor (many pts that were admitted to the hospital as inpatients are now managed as outpatients). Because of reimbursements, there is a certain pressure to move patients out of the hospital sooner. Also, most hospitals have not had an increase in resident numbers, yet, the number of patient days has continued to increase.

I'm sure it depends on the institution and residents. While hours may have decreased, the "productivity" of that time likely increased.

 

[AlmostAnMD]

He's probably referring to many, many years ago when people like Mayo residents worked 363 days a year.

 

[Smokemont]

What makes you think that residency is easier for younger docs compared to doctors training 25 years ago?

Depends on when the doctor trained. The acuity of the average admitted patient has increased significantly and will require more labor (many pts that were admitted to the hospital as inpatients are now managed as outpatients). Because of reimbursements, there is a certain pressure to move patients out of the hospital sooner. Also, most hospitals have not had an increase in resident numbers, yet, the number of patient days has continued to increase.

I'm sure it depends on the institution and residents. While hours may have decreased, the "productivity" of that time likely increased.

My response was towards the hours worked from the poster above and was just trying to make a point how most people don't really think of where the term 'resident' came from. You certainly make good points. I would also add that the additional debt of present residents puts an additional strain on some people, compared with much less debt of the older generation.

 

[ucladoc2b]

My response was towards the hours worked from the poster above and was just trying to make a point how most people don't really think of where the term 'resident' came from. You certainly make good points. I would also add that the additional debt of present residents puts an additional strain on some people, compared with much less debt of the older generation.

Oh. Looks like we are on the same page then. Thankfully, the actual "residency" is long gone (somewhat).

Sorry. I guess I just kind of tire of the older generation patronizing the younger generation.

 

[BlaseFaire]

Here's some advice someone told me: "Don't buy a new car when you become a resident."

 

[RangerBob]

Here's some advice someone told me: "Don't buy a new car when you become a resident."

Or when you become an attending--live like a resident for another year or two and pay down those loans.

 

[duckie99]

Or when you become an attending--live like a resident for another year or two and pay down those loans.

unfortunately life rarely works out this way... wife, kids, new cars, a mortgage, etc all start to pop up lol.

Honestly, OP, if you can help it do not marry another physician in the same type of debt you will be in. It helps when you have two incomes and only one person with debt. That's my ideal plan anyway... along with at most making a payment to prevent further interest buildup... that's what kills you man. I think 200k is manageable alone with good money management skills but when that 200k turns into 300k over your residency/fellowship training then you'll be pissed when you gotta start paying that back.

 

[Smokemont]

unfortunately life rarely works out this way... wife, kids, new cars, a mortgage, etc all start to pop up lol.

Honestly, OP, if you can help it do not marry another physician in the same type of debt you will be in. It helps when you have two incomes and only one person with debt. That's my ideal plan anyway... along with at most making a payment to prevent further interest buildup... that's what kills you man. I think 200k is manageable alone with good money management skills but when that 200k turns into 300k over your residency/fellowship training then you'll be pissed when you gotta start paying that back.

200k is very manageable on a physician salary, in any specialty. Just don't let that interest accumulate.

 

[notbobtrustme]

unfortunately life rarely works out this way... wife, kids, new cars, a mortgage, etc all start to pop up lol.

Honestly, OP, if you can help it do not marry another physician in the same type of debt you will be in. It helps when you have two incomes and only one person with debt. That's my ideal plan anyway... along with at most making a payment to prevent further interest buildup... that's what kills you man. I think 200k is manageable alone with good money management skills but when that 200k turns into 300k over your residency/fellowship training then you'll be pissed when you gotta start paying that back.

wait what. And people wonder where the stereotype that doctors are bad with money comes from..

Two people making 200k/each a year with 450k in debt is better than 2 people making 200k and 50k/year with 200k in debt.

 

[Smokemont]

wait what. And people wonder where the stereotype that doctors are bad with money comes from..

Two people making 200k/each a year with 450k in debt is better than 2 people making 200k and 50k/year with 200k in debt.

especially in the long run

 

[45408]

unfortunately life rarely works out this way... wife, kids, new cars, a mortgage, etc all start to pop up lol.

Honestly, OP, if you can help it do not marry another physician in the same type of debt you will be in. It helps when you have two incomes and only one person with debt. That's my ideal plan anyway... along with at most making a payment to prevent further interest buildup... that's what kills you man. I think 200k is manageable alone with good money management skills but when that 200k turns into 300k over your residency/fellowship training then you'll be pissed when you gotta start paying that back.

I bought a new-ish minivan last year in cash, have a mortgage, a wife, and two kids. And that's on a resident's salary. If you ride up the lifestyle escalator a *little* slower than everyone else, you can put some serious damage on your student loans. $200K is plenty, but it's not a doomsday scenario. Now, the people with $500K in loans? That's f'd up.

Can't tell if you're serious, but yes, compared to older docs we will have it easy. It's called residency for a reason.

Compared to the older docs, they had it easy. And compared to the guys before THAT? OH MAN IT WAS UNBELIEVABLE, HOLY CRAP. DID YOU HEAR WHAT DR HALSTED JUST SAID TO DR CUSHING? HE TORE HIM A NEW ONE. Right after he finished taking some morphine, because he couldn't stop doing cocaine without it....


Has any generation ever said that it got worse after them?


The physicians before us could get into med school with lower grades, lower MCAT scores, no research, and no clinical exposure. Do they ever mention that part?

And even 30 years ago, patients were not even close to as sick as the patients now. None of them ever cared for a child who had been born with a hypoplastic heart, because they all simply died as babies. An 88-year old on warfarin who got T-boned? Probably didn't even make it to the ED in the 1970s.

 

[Smokemont]

Compared to the older docs, they had it easy. And compared to the guys before THAT? OH MAN IT WAS UNBELIEVABLE, HOLY CRAP. DID YOU HEAR WHAT DR HALSTED JUST SAID TO DR CUSHING? HE TORE HIM A NEW ONE. Right after he finished taking some morphine, because he couldn't stop doing cocaine without it....

Let me repeat for you, my response was referring to hours worked in response to an above poster.

 

[45408]

Let me repeat for you, my response was referring to hours worked in response to an above poster.

There are hours worked, and there are hours at the hospital. Even attendings on SDN from the prior era have commented about how they would do things like have "resident movie night" in the lounge, because so many people were on call (because people would be Q2 or Q3 on every service) that there wasn't that much to do for everyone. WS said she once spent hours waiting for a chief to finish a case so she could sign out and leave. There wasn't any work to do, but the chief just let her wait.

Halsted's residents were "residents," but they slept too (probably with the aid of some morphine out of the apothecary), and I'm quite sure they didn't get any 3am pages for Tylenol! If you were really tired, just have some cocaine. It was just more of a military experience compared to the job experience it is now. They also didn't have the USMLE, ABSITE or probably even board exams at all.

 

[Didierdrogba]

Can't tell if you're serious, but yes, compared to older docs we will have it easy. It's called residency for a reason.

what are you talking about? one of the clinical skills prof at my school is a semi-retired doc, and he kept saying how we have it much worse nowadays financially compared to when he was a med student. oh by the way, he didn't even have to do ANY residency

 

[notbobtrustme]

Look, 200k is a lot of money, but it's not some insurmontable burden.

For example, 250k in loans @7.4% (mix of 6.8 and 7.9, it'll likely be a bit less than this for most students) on a 10 year schedule comes out to be about 3,000/month. Given 4 exemptions on a 200k/year salary (gross), take home pay is about 11k/month in Illinois. Can you live on 8k/month? Sure, comfortably even.

200k is very manageable. When you get to the higher amounts (300k+), then start worrying.

 

[Smokemont]

what are you talking about? one of the clinical skills prof at my school is a semi-retired doc, and he kept saying how we have it much worse nowadays financially compared to when he was a med student. oh by the way, he didn't even have to do ANY residency

Try reading a bit more carefully next time.

There are hours worked, and there are hours at the hospital. Even attendings on SDN from the prior era have commented about how they would do things like have "resident movie night" in the lounge, because so many people were on call (because people would be Q2 or Q3 on every service) that there wasn't that much to do for everyone. WS said she once spent hours waiting for a chief to finish a case so she could sign out and leave. There wasn't any work to do, but the chief just let her wait.

Halsted's residents were "residents," but they slept too (probably with the aid of some morphine out of the apothecary), and I'm quite sure they didn't get any 3am pages for Tylenol! If you were really tired, just have some cocaine. It was just more of a military experience compared to the job experience it is now. They also didn't have the USMLE, ABSITE or probably even board exams at all.

Good points, you of course know more about it than I do, perhaps my comments were off base. Regardless, I would much rather be home than be at resident movie night.

Look, 200k is a lot of money, but it's not some insurmontable burden.

For example, 250k in loans @7.4% (mix of 6.8 and 7.9, it'll likely be a bit less than this for most students) on a 10 year schedule comes out to be about 3,000/month. Given 4 exemptions on a 200k/year salary (gross), take home pay is about 11k/month in Illinois. Can you live on 8k/month? Sure, comfortably even.

200k is very manageable. When you get to the higher amounts (300k+), then start worrying.

This. 200k in loans on a 10 year payback at 6.8% is 2300/mo. Quite manageable on an attending salary.

 

[yehhhboiii]

Look, 200k is a lot of money, but it's not some insurmontable burden.

For example, 250k in loans @7.4% (mix of 6.8 and 7.9, it'll likely be a bit less than this for most students) on a 10 year schedule comes out to be about 3,000/month. Given 4 exemptions on a 200k/year salary (gross), take home pay is about 11k/month in Illinois. Can you live on 8k/month? Sure, comfortably even.

200k is very manageable. When you get to the higher amounts (300k+), then start worrying.

How are you going to pay that 3,000 a month when you're doing your residency + fellowship? After 4 years of residency at 6.8% interest, that 200k is 250k. If you have 250k, it becomes 320k. And it's not as if medical school is getting cheaper.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

There are hours worked, and there are hours at the hospital. Even attendings on SDN from the prior era have commented about how they would do things like have "resident movie night" in the lounge, because so many people were on call (because people would be Q2 or Q3 on every service) that there wasn't that much to do for everyone. WS said she once spent hours waiting for a chief to finish a case so she could sign out and leave. There wasn't any work to do, but the chief just let her wait.

Halsted's residents were "residents," but they slept too (probably with the aid of some morphine out of the apothecary), and I'm quite sure they didn't get any 3am pages for Tylenol! If you were really tired, just have some cocaine. It was just more of a military experience compared to the job experience it is now. They also didn't have the USMLE, ABSITE or probably even board exams at all.

I think we need to go back to the good old days. Let everyone get all coked up again and we won't have to worry about those pesky hour restrictions.

 

[notbobtrustme]

How are you going to pay that 3,000 a month when you're doing your residency + fellowship? After 4 years of residency at 6.8% interest, that 200k is 250k. If you have 250k, it becomes 320k. And it's not as if medical school is getting cheaper.

Your goal in residency should be to keep interest from ballooning out of control, thus make interest only payments or IBR payments (which won't cover the interest, but still won't let it balloon out of control).

 

[Smokemont]

How are you going to pay that 3,000 a month when you're doing your residency + fellowship? After 4 years of residency at 6.8% interest, that 200k is 250k. If you have 250k, it becomes 320k. And it's not as if medical school is getting cheaper.

No one is saying that the debt isn't out of control and doesn't suck. We're just trying to reassure the OP that he/she will be alright.