Medicaid

[SHC1984]

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Okay that guy was just dumb...being smart includes having a social filter. Kanye West is a good musician, but he's a ******* with no filter.

And did you watch my video on page 2? Please please please watch it for me.

I watched 15 seconds of it...then I had to stop...Killing pigs is wrong! Poor piggy.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

So you are now claiming that more people abuse the system than legitimately need it?

Well...you're wrong.

Do you have a source that says otherwise?

Maybe I exaggerate, but If I had to venture a guess from my experiences? Perhaps. Hell, this past summer there was the largest Medicare Bust in upstate NY http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/07/28/massive-medicare-bust-reels-in-doctors-nurses/

I have nothing against those who are less fortunate than me, and unfortunately the Government will never give me an option of whether I want to give them charity or not. But I'll make damn sure my dollar goes into a program that is efficiently and properly serving it's purpose.

 

[confettiflyer]

I watched 15 seconds of it...then I had to stop...Killing pigs is wrong! Poor piggy.

what're you talking about, it was already dead, haha

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Do you have a source that says otherwise?

Maybe I exaggerate, but If I had to venture a guess from my experiences? Perhaps. Hell, this past summer there was the largest Medicare Bust in upstate NY http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/07/28/massive-medicare-bust-reels-in-doctors-nurses/

I have nothing against those who are less fortunate than me, and unfortunately the Government will never give me an option of whether I want to give them charity or not. But I'll make damn sure my dollar goes into a program that is efficiently and properly serving it's purpose.

Exaggerate/blind guess/anecdotal information...

Do you know the difference between Medicare and Medicaid? What does the news article that you posted prove about Medicaid enrollment and beneficiaries? I already said upthread that the largest % of expenditures on Medicaid benefit the elderly and the disabled. The greatest # of recipients of Medicaid are children, but they account for a lower % of expenditures. Stats are available through CMS.

Knowing that, do you still think the majority of recipients are fraudulent/unworthy? Who do you want to cut first? The kids? The disabled? The elderly? Please elaborate.

 

[Old Timer]

I must say, this is the most disappointing thread I have seen in a long time. It shows that the caliber of student that is admitted to professional schools is much lower than I anticipated. There is a complete lack of truthfulness and on a scale from 1-10 the moral compass appears to be set to -5.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. What you are not entitled to is your own facts. You are free to debate the wisdom of our welfare system and the efficiency of societies delivery of services to those less fortunate than us. What you are not free to do is supply anecdotal evidence of "abuse" without any factual data to back it up.

To those libertarians among us (and I have very strong libertarian tendencies myself) you must also recognize that it is privilege to live here. By accident of birth you were born here and not in Somalia. So, in reaping the benefits of the society you have a responsibility to the society that allows you to prosper financially. President Kennedy was correct when he said:

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich

J.F.K. Inaugural Address

To those in this thread that worship at the alter of "The Market", you display a stunning lack of history. People will lie, cheat or steal in order to make money, if they think they can get away with it.
Look at the Ford Pinto or Truman's investigation into war time corruption in military procurement. Read Upton Sinclair's The Jungle to understand what capitalism, unchecked by government regulation can get you. And yes, DARPA did invent the Internet. That's what government does best. Basic research that has no immediate marketable purpose. Then the market takes what the government invents or discovers and improves or markets it. The university research quoted is greatly funded by government grants.

There is one person I will call out by name and that is SHC1984. You my friend are a sorry excuse for a person. I really find it astonishing you can be so blind and ignorant of history. We have just escaped the 20th century where more human beings have been killed than at any other time, by a factor of 10. You are a Nazi. You don't even know it. What allowed the Nazis to kill 6 million Jews was their ability to dehumanize the Jews. They were vermin, they were a drag on German society, so they should be exterminated. It is sickening you hold these views. Your ignorance knows no bounds. I would suggest you watch a movie called Conspiracy. It takes place here:

If you don't want to rent it, you can watch it on Youtube:

Part one is here.


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFYyLUtIVX8[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Wetback4Welfare]

There are a bunch of sociopaths in this thread. So terribly sad that some of you are actually going to be health care providers. You talk about entitlement? Go look at yourselves.

Sickening that you would rather let people die on the street than fork up some tax dollars (from which you benefit too!) to help them out.

A bunch of heartless scumbags.

I pity you.

 

[owlegrad]

There are a bunch of sociopaths in this thread. So terribly sad that some of you are actually going to be health care providers. You talk about entitlement? Go look at yourselves.

Sickening that you would rather let people die on the street than fork up some tax dollars (from which you benefit too!) to help them out.

A bunch of heartless scumbags.

I pity you.

Hmmm.....I wonder who is behind this nic...

 

[Jabberwocky12]

Hmmm.....I wonder who is behind this nic...

A troll?

 

[Wetback4Welfare]

A troll?

I'm no troll. Trolls don't roll through the CVS drive thru in an Escalade with 5 kids in the back. Trolls are tax paying American citizens with a chip on their shoulder. Oh ya.

 

[owlegrad]

A troll?

No, not likely. I think it is a forum regular who wants to be "extra" anonymous. I have some folks in mind...

Edit: Er, maybe I am wrong. 😆

 

[Jabberwocky12]

I would just like to remind people that no matter what system you try and implement, better or worse than the current one (in your mind maybe), there will be people there to abuse it. Plain and simple. Just don't let a few bad eggs ruin it for the people who do use it.

See my firefighter analogy as mentioned before...

 

[FarscapeGirl]

I watched 15 seconds of it...then I had to stop...Killing pigs is wrong! Poor piggy.

So we shouldn't kill pigs, but mental patients, those people deserve to die.

Do you not see the irony in those two statements??

Oh, and that 'smartest' guy in your class that said that it would be better to test drugs on mental people than on mice? Not very smart. Mice are bred to be extremely genetically similar and don't have very long lives, which makes them really good to be used in research and drug testing. Plus, they're healthy and not on other drugs, which would not be the case with mental health patients. So he basically showed himself to be an idiot and a sociopath.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

Do you know the difference between Medicare and Medicaid? What does the news article that you posted prove about Medicaid enrollment and beneficiaries? I already said upthread that the largest % of expenditures on Medicaid benefit the elderly and the disabled. The greatest # of recipients of Medicaid are children, but they account for a lower % of expenditures. Stats are available through CMS.

I do. Excuse me for my generalization about the prevalence of fraud then. However, whether it is 99% or 1% of the costs it comes off the backs of taxpayers. I'd like to think we can agree the status quo is inefficient in doing it's services.

Knowing that, do you still think the majority of recipients are fraudulent/unworthy? Who do you want to cut first? The kids? The disabled? The elderly? Please elaborate.

That's a nice straw man.

 

[Old Timer]

I do. Excuse me for my generalization about the prevalence of fraud then. However, whether it is 99% or 1% of the costs it comes off the backs of taxpayers. I'd like to think we can agree the status quo is inefficient in doing it's services.

Medicare is wildly more efficient than private insurance. Lower overhead, no advertising and no profit to make for shareholders.... Your view is simplistic and is not grounded in any facts at all. You just spout crap you hear on talk radio. Government bad, Markets good....

 

[FarscapeGirl]

Well the solution to that is market correction. Too many janitors? People will leave the profession, supply will drop, wages will rise for everyone else. No way I'd want goverment messing with wages/supply/etc... Imagine if government mandated our salaries as pharmacists (at a higher than "normal" level). Great for us, not so great for our employers, who then have to make cuts in other areas. Too much meddling, I don't like it.

So when you dutifully sock money away in your 401k, you want all those companies to be irresponsible with your money? If I wanted to support social causes, I'd rather donate money vs be deceived by some company pretending to make money but in fact is trying to save the world.

End of life care in the US is out of control, but I do acknowledge the values of this country dictates that we *should* spend money on terminal cancer patients, even if the evidence shows a few months improvement.

I do personally think that we're better off spending the money on vaccinating kids or other basic/easy things, but again, stepping back, government should reflect the values of the people it represents. So, in my world of single payer "confettiflyer as dictator" government, I would have to cut off the treatments you're talking about and channel it to other areas.

...I'd like to bring back debtors prisons for just that one person.

Market correction to job wages is not perfect, though. Do the people that watch our children really deserve just minimum wage? Do you want those with the least education and experience to watch the vulnerable in our society? Should teachers (where jobs are in demand, in part because no one wants the work for the low pay) really make as little as they do? I don't think the government should mandate salaries; I never said that. I think it's wrong for some to make so little (and others to make such obscene amounts), but I have no easy answer for either situation.

You think companies are responsible for taking care of our money? The companies that only care about this quarter's profits? They only want to make money for themselves, as quickly as possible. I'm sure there's some that follow the rules, but the power of making more money is rather strong, and having lots of lawyers makes it easy to stretch the limits of what's legal and ethical. Think of all those people in banks that gave loans to those that they shouldn't have and made tons of money off of it. It crashed our economy, but a lot of them are doing fine and well.

You must not have had a loved one who died of cancer or is battling cancer. My mom has had cancer for 13 years now, and eventually it will kill her. She's on permanent pain medication, she's disabled, and it costs a lot of money to keep her alive. Yet she is still living. For how long, no one knows. I have issues with keeping people who are in permanent comas or who are barely conscious and in lots of pain alive, but I want my loved ones and other's loved ones to be kept alive as long as they have meaningful lives.

Please tell me you're kidding about debtor's prison. It wasn't a very effective system. But it is frustrating people taking out such huge loans to get degrees for professions that would never pay that much. We really should start personal finance classes in our schools...

 

[diplomat]

Kanye West is a good musician, but he's a ******* with no filter./QUOTE]

A musician is someone who plays a musical instrument. What musical instrument does Kanye West Play? He doesnt. He is nothing more than a pop star: same category as Brittaney Spears, Justin Bieber, etc...Well actually I think Justin Bieber plays musical instruments so that would problably be innacurate to compare a pop star such as Kayne West to someone who actually plays a real musical instrument.

 

[chubsley2000]

I really do not understand why anyone would want to live or think there is a point to life if they are just sitting at home like a vegetable everyday. I don't think I am being mean...I just have a very productive way of thinking.

Genius. Let's send all of the elderly, babies (seriously, babies take waaaay too long to become productive), veterans who had their legs blown off in Iraq, the blind, and the homeless on a one-way trip to Pluto.

That should leave enough room for the rest of us "productive" folks to live it up in our new little utopia, until of course we age and become unproductive, and lay our heads down on the chopping block to make room for the next generation

 

[delano2000]

This thread is very disheartening.🙁

 

[chubsley2000]

Oh, and that 'smartest' guy in your class that said that it would be better to test drugs on mental people than on mice? Not very smart. Mice are bred to be extremely genetically similar and don't have very long lives, which makes them really good to be used in research and drug testing. Plus, they're healthy and not on other drugs, which would not be the case with mental health patients. So he basically showed himself to be an idiot and a sociopath.

I know, right?

"But the smartest guy in my class even said that we should test drugs on mentally disabled people!"

This thread is like a bad South Park episode

 

[schamj01]

Genius. Let's send all of the elderly, babies (seriously, babies take waaaay too long to become productive), veterans who had their legs blown off in Iraq, the blind, and the homeless on a one-way trip to Pluto.

That should leave enough room for the rest of us "productive" folks to live it up in our new little utopia, until of course we age and become unproductive, and lay our heads down on the chopping block to make room for the next generation

Yeah, I wanted to bring up the babies/elderly issue last night, but was afraid of the consequences. The whole idea of assigning worth to people based on certain attributes that they may or may not have is crap. As a great man once said...A person's a person no matter how small (or insert any other characteristic here). Once we start categorizing people, things get pretty scary. SHC...better watch out, because you might get your way, but the people in power might decide that you have an attribute they don't value. And there won't be a thing you could do to stop them. Scary? I think so. That's why I much prefer to live in a world where basic human rights are implicit. I'd rather base everything else off that foundation than anything else.

As for the whole idea of intelligence being the absolute most important quality of a pharmacist? Remember, you have to keep people coming in the door to get their scripts. You better put a smile on, or people will report you to your superiors and you could be out of a job. If the market really is as oversaturated as every claims it is, better take a few classes on how to treat people right and give them exactly what they want so your boss will be happy with you too.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

Knowing that, do you still think the majority of recipients are fraudulent/unworthy? Who do you want to cut first? The kids? The disabled? The elderly? Please elaborate.

They maybe deserving, however that doesn't mean I should have to pay for them. If you want to that is fine, however I don't want to.

 

[chubsley2000]

Yeah, I wanted to bring up the babies/elderly issue last night, but was afraid of the consequences. The whole idea of assigning worth to people based on certain attributes that they may or may not have is crap. As a great man once said...A person's a person no matter how small (or insert any other characteristic here). Once we start categorizing people, things get pretty scary. SHC...better watch out, because you might get your way, but the people in power might decide that you have an attribute they don't value. And there won't be a thing you could do to stop them. Scary? I think so. That's why I much prefer to live in a world where basic human rights are implicit. I'd rather base everything else off that foundation than anything else.

I hear ya, this country was founded upon the idea that all men and women are created equal. It hasn't always lived up to it, but that was the starting point. And look at how great it's become. I'd call that pretty "productive".

If you want to start drawing lines in the sand and artificially determining who has the right to simply exist then don't get involved in healthcare

edit: Well, maybe not women, but you get the idea

 

[rph3664]

No, not likely. I think it is a forum regular who wants to be "extra" anonymous. I have some folks in mind...

Edit: Er, maybe I am wrong. 😆

I'll admit it - it wasn't me.

 

[npage148]

What kills me is that all the libertarians and people here seem to forget is that they are 1 step from neededing all these horrible gov't programs to maintain some semblance of a life. Without a strong central gov't and programs we would quickly devolve into a hellhole

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Rockinacoustic, let me be more clear. You made the widely unsupportable claim that:

there are far too many people who abuse the system as opposed to those who actually need the coverage.

A number of people responded that your claim lacked validity. I elaborated to explain that the majority of beneficiaries of Medicaid are elderly, disabled or minors.

You then admitted that your assertion was based on nothing more than your opinion:

Maybe I exaggerate, but If I had to venture a guess from my experiences? Perhaps.

And confused the issue with an irrelevant tangent about Medicare fraud:

Hell, this past summer there was the largest Medicare Bust in upstate NY http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/07/28/massive-medicare-bust-reels-in-doctors-nurses/

Medicare fraud is rampant. Everyone knows that. But it's also mostly perpetuated by PROVIDERS. There is an abundance of information about that available online. But Medicare and Medicaid are different, in a number of ways. For one, Medicare has universal enrollment of all individuals over a certain age. For another, Medicare is a federally administered program while Medicaid is partially federally funded but administered by the states. And so on.

So, posting an article about Medicare fraud gets us nowhere towards actually proving or disproving your claim that (in case you need reminding of what I'm trying to get at here):

there are far too many people who abuse the system as opposed to those who actually need the coverage.

So I asked you whether you objected most to the elderly, the disabled or the children, since corporately these groups make up the greatest # of recipients and the greatest % of expenditures. And you said:

That's a nice straw man.

It's not. It's a fair question. You say the majority of recipients don't need the coverage. Since your "majority" must then encompass at least some members of the groups I mentioned, who would you like to remove to increase the efficiency/lower the cost of the system?

 

[Old Timer]

Rockinacoustic, let me be more clear. You made the widely unsupportable claim that:



A number of people responded that your claim lacked validity. I elaborated to explain that the majority of beneficiaries of Medicaid are elderly, disabled or minors.

You then admitted that your assertion was based on nothing more than your opinion:



And confused the issue with an irrelevant tangent about Medicare fraud:



Medicare fraud is rampant. Everyone knows that. But it's also mostly perpetuated by PROVIDERS. There is an abundance of information about that available online. But Medicare and Medicaid are different, in a number of ways. For one, Medicare has universal enrollment of all individuals over a certain age. For another, Medicare is a federally administered program while Medicaid is partially federally funded but administered by the states. And so on.

So, posting an article about Medicare fraud gets us nowhere towards actually proving or disproving your claim that (in case you need reminding of what I'm trying to get at here):



So I asked you whether you objected most to the elderly, the disabled or the children, since corporately these groups make up the greatest # of recipients and the greatest % of expenditures. And you said:



It's not. It's a fair question. You say the majority of recipients don't need the coverage. Since your "majority" must then encompass at least some members of the groups I mentioned, who would you like to remove to increase the efficiency/lower the cost of the system?

Logic never works with an ideologue. An ideologue has a view and looks only for support for that view. Facts that contravene the tightly held view are discarded. It's like living in an alternate universe. All the facts in the world will never convince an ideologue to change his/her view. This by the way applies to people on the left and the right. They never, ever. ever left the facts get in the way of the narrative they are attempting to weave.

These are the people that want to cut the budget, but want all the cuts to come from the smallest segment of the budget. These are the people who rail against government hand outs and take subsidized student loans while their parents write off the interest and taxes on their homes. These are the people who say the government shouldn't subsidize mass transit but they should continue to subsidize car travel with massive government spending on roads. These are the people who say universities conduct great research while failing to acknowledge the government funds much of this research. They don't because it doesn't fit their narrative. They have a narrative of big, bad government. They have this image of a 500lb black woman in an Escalade getting drugs that they pay for. This only exists in their little minds.

The stunning lack of humanity that has been shown by some posters is stunning. But it is in keeping with our narcissistic culture.

 

[SHC1984]

So we shouldn't kill pigs, but mental patients, those people deserve to die.

Do you not see the irony in those two statements??
.

No there is no irony. One statement I am saying we shouldn't torture or kill animals.

In the other statement I am saying that if you are a complete vegetable, unable to do anything, you have no mind, no skills, etc. that kind of life just isn't worth living. Why would you WANT to live that life? (No one has answer that question yet.) I never said it was their fault that they are that way. I never said they deserve to be anything. I am just saying if you have a life like that, you are better off dead.

And you don't think your own statement is ironic? So it is okay to torture animals, as long as its not humans? I think some people's statements in this thread is just as ironic! LOL...

Oh and there is nothing wrong with death. It sure makes things much easier. It's like taking a nap, but never waking up again. (and I love naps) So if you have a life like that, I think death would be a better option. Why be a burden on society and take away from others? It's not like you could possibly be enjoying your OWN life if you live that way anyways.

 

[owlegrad]

Logic never works with an ideologue. An ideologue has a view and looks only for support for that view. Facts that contravene the tightly held view are discarded. It's like living in an alternate universe. All the facts in the world will never convince an ideologue to change his/her view. This by the way applies to people on the left and the right. They never, ever. ever left the facts get in the way of the narrative they are attempting to weave.

These are the people that want to cut the budget, but want all the cuts to come from the smallest segment of the budget. These are the people who rail against government hand outs and take subsidized student loans while their parents write off the interest and taxes on their homes. These are the people who say the government shouldn't subsidize mass transit but they should continue to subsidize car travel with massive government spending on roads. These are the people who say universities conduct great research while failing to acknowledge the government funds much of this research. They don't because it doesn't fit their narrative. They have a narrative of big, bad government. They have this image of a 500lb black woman in an Escalade getting drugs that they pay for. This only exists in their little minds.
...

Well said. I wish SDN had a "like" function.

 

[pandapharmer]

No there is no irony. One statement I am saying we shouldn't torture or kill animals.


And you don't think your own statement is ironic? So it is okay to torture animals, as long as its not humans? I think some people's statements in this thread is just as ironic! LOL...

I'm all for animal rights, but what I can't understand is why you are all for defending the rights of animals, who can't fend for themselves, and NOT for defending the rights of humans who are not able to fend for themselves (i.e. the "vegetables" and the elderly).

While I'm a noob to this forum, I have to say that after reading this thread I definitely feel that it is disheartening that some of my fellow future professionals have such uncompassionate and black/white views of society.

 

[owlegrad]

SHC - Are you talking about people who are in a vegetative state or people who are mentally ******ed?

I would not want to be in a vegetative coma, on life support, no hope of recovery, etc. Like someone else said, that is what living wills are for. Many people share your opinion on that. If those are the people you are talking about - well have some empathy girl - some people want to cling to life to the very end and it is not our place to judge that decision - but I guess you are entitled to your opinion.

People who are ******ed are a completely different story. They can be so full of love and compassion. They are some of the sweetest people you could ever met. Some are able to hold down jobs (with assistance - sometimes major, sometimes minor - see ARC as one example) - mostly things like janitors, baggers, yard workers, stuff like that. If you think those are the people who have no value/shouldn't be supported/no purpose in life - I don't have words for that. Well I do - but I would prefer not to be banned.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

SHC - Are you talking about people who are in a vegetative state or people who are mentally ******ed?

I would not want to be in a vegetative coma, on life support, no hope of recovery, etc. Like someone else said, that is what living wills are for. Many people share your opinion on that. If those are the people you are talking about - well have some empathy girl - some people want to cling to life to the very end and it is not our place to judge that decision - but I guess you are entitled to your opinion.

People who are ******ed are a completely different story. They can be so full of love and compassion. They are some of the sweetest people you could ever met. Some are able to hold down jobs (with assistance - sometimes major, sometimes minor - see ARC as one example) - mostly things like janitors, baggers, yard workers, stuff like that. If you think those are the people who have no value/shouldn't be supported/no purpose in life - I don't have words for that. Well I do - but I would prefer not to be banned.

I honestly don't think she knows the difference. And thank you for using the proper word ("vegetative state") because it's not nice to call people vegetables. People are people, not vegetables.

I don't think she gets that people in vegetative states don't "sit at home." They are almost always in facilities or institutions. Not that the distinction really matters, because they consume resources regardless of where they are. I tend to agree that it is less cruel to let someone in a vegetative state die a natural death than to keep them alive with tubes, vents, etc. But the right to make that decision lies first of all with the PERSON in the vegetative state (assuming a living will is in force) and then with the person's loved ones or guardians. When we start legislating death for certain people based on their "worth" to society or their perceived productivity, then we're all at risk because it's not just the "vegetables" that will be in trouble. The spoiled little rich girl princesses would be first on the chopping block. After all, what does Paris Hilton and her ilk contribute to society?

Enough about vegetative states. SHC, do you understand that probably 95%+ of the disabled are thinking, feeling beings? Even if they aren't gifted with the same level of intelligence as you or I, they are still people, deserving of rights and protection. As owlegrad described, they can lead very long, fulfilling lives for themselves and the people who love them. What would you have us DO with these people? Most cannot support themselves, at least completely. If you think society has no role in supporting its weakest members, then you must propose an alternate plan for their care or disposition. You aren't in favor of slaughtering defenseless animals (by the way... it costs money to keep animals alive too) so surely you'd offer the same protection to a defenseless human being? If you wouldn't, then you DO value animal life over human and that's despicable. Please explain yourself, because you are coming off as a terrible human being in this thread. 🙁

 

[rph3664]

"Persistent vegetative state" is a legitimate medical term. My mother knew of a woman (they had a mutual friend) who was this way for about 15 years after a car accident, but she was NOT comatose. She had definite wake and sleep cycles, and was aware of visitors although she could not speak or communicate, even with a letter board. "Locked in" might have been a better way to describe her; the book and movie "The Diving Bell and the Butterfly" is about a man who was this way following a stroke.

One other thing, SHC: Aren't you the person who was in dental school for a while?

 

[ucrx]

SHC - Are you talking about people who are in a vegetative state or people who are mentally ******ed?

I kept thinking this and was going to post something similar. I never want to be kept alive in a vegetative state. But if I somehow lost all of my intelligent functioning but still could have emotions and enjoy life, I would be fine with that. While I value intelligence in myself and others, it doesn't mean everything. I've known plenty of people who were mentally ******ed who were able to function and loved spending time with others. There was actually a couple who were both mentally ******ed but functional who came into the pharmacy where I first worked. They were some of the sweetest customers we had.

 

[SHC1984]

I honestly don't think she knows the difference. And thank you for using the proper word ("vegetative state") because it's not nice to call people vegetables. People are people, not vegetables.

I don't think she gets that people in vegetative states don't "sit at home." They are almost always in facilities or institutions. Not that the distinction really matters, because they consume resources regardless of where they are. I tend to agree that it is less cruel to let someone in a vegetative state die a natural death than to keep them alive with tubes, vents, etc. But the right to make that decision lies first of all with the PERSON in the vegetative state (assuming a living will is in force) and then with the person's loved ones or guardians. When we start legislating death for certain people based on their "worth" to society or their perceived productivity, then we're all at risk because it's not just the "vegetables" that will be in trouble. The spoiled little rich girl princesses would be first on the chopping block. After all, what does Paris Hilton and her ilk contribute to society?

Enough about vegetative states. SHC, do you understand that probably 95%+ of the disabled are thinking, feeling beings? Even if they aren't gifted with the same level of intelligence as you or I, they are still people, deserving of rights and protection. As owlegrad described, they can lead very long, fulfilling lives for themselves and the people who love them. What would you have us DO with these people? Most cannot support themselves, at least completely. If you think society has no role in supporting its weakest members, then you must propose an alternate plan for their care or disposition. You aren't in favor of slaughtering defenseless animals (by the way... it costs money to keep animals alive too) so surely you'd offer the same protection to a defenseless human being? If you wouldn't, then you DO value animal life over human and that's despicable. Please explain yourself, because you are coming off as a terrible human being in this thread. 🙁

I value an animal's life the same as a person. Most animals are independent and live in the forest. So it's not the animals that bother us...it's the human beings that bother the animals...That's why I am so supportive of animals b/c they live their own lives/they are free but humans like to kill animals which is wrong. I am just saying leave the animals alone, they didn't do crap to you. Leave them alone. If you want a pet and are willing to treat them like your own child, fine with me...otherwise leave the animals alone. That's all that I am saying.

Yeah, if a person is in a coma or vegetative state, I think we should just let them go. It sounds mean and again, I am NOT saying it is their fault that they are in that mess, but I am just saying...there is no point in living if you are in that state. If you are in that state and want to live at the expense of the society...I think that is selfish. You want to live at the expense of SOMEONE ELSE? Tell me why that isn't selfish. Paris Hilton made movies, have a few music videos out, have her own perfume line, and opened up a few night clubs...I don't know her personally so I am not for her or against her, but those are the things that she did for society.

If a person is mentally ******ed and works at the grocery store, thats fine. I don't see a problem with that. Working at a grocery store is enough to support ones self. My mother raised three children by herself when we first moved to America. We were very poor, my mom was a waitress for a few years when we first moved here. She worked while my grandmother took care of us. She didn't make but 25K a year (about the same salary as a person working at a grocery store) and she was able to support herself and ALL three of us. It was hard but we worked it out. We didn't live off of the government or any free handouts. We didn't have any health insurance either, but luckily we were all very healthy. My mom eventually opened up her own restaurant and our life got better...but when we first moved to the USA, we were very broke. If my mom can support three kids on 25K a year, then I do not understand why other parents can't support their own children. 25K is like the bare min salary and we all live okay.

I think I agree with confettiflyer the most when it comes to medicaid. Yeah, there will be people that need it, but it shouldn't be given out like its free candy that will last for a lifetime. It should be limited to 3 years or something like that. Meaning after you have used it for 3 years you should be good enough to better yourself and move on.

Mentally ******ed people can live with family, they can get family support or like you say they can work at the grocery store thats fine. I think that is enough to support ones self. Basically if you are a human being you can/should be able to support yourself. If you can't and need help thats fine for a LIMITED AMOUNT OF TIME. There just shouldn't be any free handouts for a lifetime is all that I am saying.

Lastly, I don't have any experience with mentally ******ed people or people in vegetative states, so you were right I didn't know the difference.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I think I agree with confettiflyer the most when it comes to medicaid. Yeah, there will be people that need it, but it shouldn't be given out like its free candy that will last for a lifetime. It should be limited to 3 years or something like that. Meaning after you have used it for 3 years you should be good enough to better yourself and move on.

FOR GODS SAKE. I am getting so tired of people making this point when it has been CLEARLY stated several times in this thread that TANF and Medicaid benefits ARE TIME LIMITED. Anyone who can work or go to school is expected to do so and they are entitled to a set number of years of benefits. Look it up if you don't believe me.

Mentally ******ed people can live with family, they can get family support or like you say they can work at the grocery store thats fine. I think that is enough to support ones self. Basically if you are a human being you can/should be able to support yourself. If you can't and need help thats fine for a LIMITED AMOUNT OF TIME. There just shouldn't be any free handouts for a lifetime is all that I am saying.

The underlined portion of your post is jaw-droppingly horrible. If you really believe that people who are unable to support themselves are not human, then I fear that you have no soul.

The disabled (mentally and physically) are disabled permanently and some may need help to continue living. Some may be able to work but most cannot live by themselves or support themselves fully. What are they supposed to do after the LIMITED benefits you propose run out? The alternative you are proposing (I think) must be to allow them to die/kill them. Not everyone has family or friends that can support them. Those who don't should just die?

Here are just a few scenarios:

Many MR adults live with their parents and frequently OUTLIVE their elderly parents. When their parents die, should we kill the mentally ******ed person to keep them from being a burden on society?

A woman is in a car accident and is paralyzed. Her husband was the driver and was drunk. He goes to jail. She as no family or friends to take care of her. What should happen to her?

An infant's parents are murdered and there is no legal guardian. The child will require the care of the state for 18+ years. Is this OK or should we just kill the child too?

Just think about these scenarios for a minute and consider the logic of what you are saying. I hope that you really give this some thought, though I'm not optimistic that your answer will change much from your standard, "Well that's sad but it's not MY problem and I don't want to pay for them."

 

[SHC1984]

The disabled (mentally and physically) are disabled permanently and some may need help to continue living. Some may be able to work but most cannot live by themselves or support themselves fully. What are they supposed to do after the LIMITED benefits you propose run out? The alternative you are proposing (I think) must be to allow them to die/kill them. Not everyone has family or friends that can support them. Those who don't should just die?

Here are just a few scenarios:

Many MR adults live with their parents and frequently OUTLIVE their elderly parents. When their parents die, should we kill the mentally ******ed person to keep them from being a burden on society?

A woman is in a car accident and is paralyzed. Her husband was the driver and was drunk. He goes to jail. She as no family or friends to take care of her. What should happen to her?

An infant's parents are murdered and there is no legal guardian. The child will require the care of the state for 18+ years. Is this OK or should we just kill the child too?

Just think about these scenarios for a minute and consider the logic of what you are saying. I hope that you really give this some thought, though I'm not optimistic that your answer will change much from your standard, "Well that's sad but it's not MY problem and I don't want to pay for them."

Okay, after their time is up the government should just supply them FOOD and nothing else. They can come by and pick up food, but that's it. They should do that for all medicaid patients that way it is near impossible to abuse. Instead of giving out cash which is very easy to abuse...they could use it to buy cocaine if they wanted to. Instead the government should just give out food to the ones with need. That way there is no point in abusing medicaid! if you do you would get an extra bag of rice, so I doubt anyone would go thru the trouble of abusing if that was all that medicaid supplies. A person only needs food to survive. All the other stuff is luxury, if you want it you should pay for it.

 

[Jabberwocky12]

Okay, after their time is up the government should just supply them FOOD and nothing else. They can come by and pick up food, but that's it. They should do that for all medicaid patients that way it is near impossible to abuse. Instead of giving out cash which is very easy to abuse...they could use it to buy cocaine if they wanted to. Instead the government should just give out food to the ones with need. That way there is no point in abusing medicaid! if you do you would get an extra bag of rice, so I doubt anyone would go thru the trouble of abusing if that was all that medicaid supplies. A person only needs food to survive. All the other stuff is luxury, if you want it you should pay for it.

You know that the foodstamps come on a debit card that only certain stores are able to accept right? In fact the stores are able to differentiate at the POS what is foodstamp eligible and not. And providing foods like that would be an issue for transportation, dietary needs for certain medical conditions, and allergies and/or religious beliefs in food. It's rather impractical.

Also, medicaid and foodstamps are 2 different things. For example, as a college student my girlfriend would qualify for medicaid because she has part-time work and makes a certain value each month. However, that amount is too much for her to get foodstamps. The government only gives out *cash* for people with extreme circumstances as a separate program which is limited in amounts and is usually paid specifically to a utility company or agency for renting the home you live in.

So yeah, medicaid is possible for a lot of people but the other programs are a lot harder to get. THOSE programs you are less likely to see people who are driving in the escalade and whatnot because you have to do more to prove you need them.

Please do a little more research on these programs before you judge them because you are making it sound like the government hands out sacks of money to anyone who fills out a form.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Okay, after their time is up the government should just supply them FOOD and nothing else. They can come by and pick up food, but that's it. They should do that for all medicaid patients that way it is near impossible to abuse. Instead of giving out cash which is very easy to abuse...they could use it to buy cocaine if they wanted to. Instead the government should just give out food to the ones with need. That way there is no point in abusing medicaid! if you do you would get an extra bag of rice, so I doubt anyone would go thru the trouble of abusing if that was all that medicaid supplies. A person only needs food to survive. All the other stuff is luxury, if you want it you should pay for it.

Food has nothing to do with Medicaid.
Medicaid makes ZERO cash payments to patients, ever.
Medicaid is for medical care and it pays directly to hospital, doctors, pharmacies, nursing homes, etc.
There is no way for patients to take Medicaid payments to buy cocaine.
I doubt many mentally ******ed adults use cocaine anyway...

Although I do agree that an extra bag of rice would solve all of the problems of a mentally ******ed adult who is unable to live on his or her own. 🙄

Please do a little more research on these programs before you judge them because you are making it sound like the government hands out sacks of money to anyone who fills out a form.

Sound advice. It's very difficult to take criticism seriously or have an intelligent debate with someone who seems to know nothing about the social programs being discussed. I mean no disrespect but WTF? I learned about all of this stuff in 7th grade Civics class (required), American History in high school (required), high school AP Government (elective), numerous required and elective college courses (I believe all college students are required to study American History) and Intro to the Health Care System in pharmacy school (required). How the hell do people not even know the basics of our government systems?

 

[R2pharmD2]

Okay, after their time is up the government should just supply them FOOD and nothing else. They can come by and pick up food, but that's it. They should do that for all medicaid patients that way it is near impossible to abuse. Instead of giving out cash which is very easy to abuse...they could use it to buy cocaine if they wanted to. Instead the government should just give out food to the ones with need. That way there is no point in abusing medicaid! if you do you would get an extra bag of rice, so I doubt anyone would go thru the trouble of abusing if that was all that medicaid supplies. A person only needs food to survive. All the other stuff is luxury, if you want it you should pay for it.

Take it easy, Champ. Why don't you sit this next one out, stop talking for a while.

 

[Jabberwocky12]

For the record, what are they teaching in pharmacy schools about health insurance? Is this something I should be concerned about? Do techs typically understand how the real world works when it comes to insurance with medicare, medicaid, tricare, and private insurance, more than the pharmacist? I feel like you learn about this stuff working retail on-the-job rather than in school where you can find out how these things work.

Or is this just the opinion of SHC that medicaid provides an all-in-one service package with food, money, insurance, and lasts for life no matter what? **** maybe people think the keys to the escalade comes with the medicaid program?

I really think we need to do post-its for some of this stuff because people really don't seem to understand. It seems like pharmacy students and pharmacists aren't on the same page for when these things come into play. Maybe we should talk about the typical qualifications, formularies, copays, how the program is funded, etc.

 

[meister]

There is no way for patients to take Medicaid payments to buy cocaine.

Bbbbbut poor people! Receiving health care administered in the worst way possible!! Not having to pay half their salary in premiums and deductibles! Not having to file bankruptcy! What a travesty!!!!

 

[All4MyDaughter]

For the record, what are they teaching in pharmacy schools about health insurance? Is this something I should be concerned about? Do techs typically understand how the real world works when it comes to insurance with medicare, medicaid, tricare, and private insurance, more than the pharmacist? I feel like you learn about this stuff working retail on-the-job rather than in school where you can find out how these things work.

Or is this just the opinion of SHC that medicaid provides an all-in-one service package with food, money, insurance, and lasts for life no matter what? **** maybe people think the keys to the escalade comes with the medicaid program?

I really think we need to do post-its for some of this stuff because people really don't seem to understand. It seems like pharmacy students and pharmacists aren't on the same page for when these things come into play. Maybe we should talk about the typical qualifications, formularies, copays, how the program is funded, etc.

I think people should just hit up Wikipedia before they go running their mouths and making themselves look like stupid asses who know nothing about the very health care system they are hoping to make six figures working in... 😡

 

[FarscapeGirl]

I value an animal's life the same as a person. Most animals are independent and live in the forest. So it's not the animals that bother us...it's the human beings that bother the animals...That's why I am so supportive of animals b/c they live their own lives/they are free but humans like to kill animals which is wrong. I am just saying leave the animals alone, they didn't do crap to you. Leave them alone. If you want a pet and are willing to treat them like your own child, fine with me...otherwise leave the animals alone. That's all that I am saying.

Yeah, if a person is in a coma or vegetative state, I think we should just let them go. It sounds mean and again, I am NOT saying it is their fault that they are in that mess, but I am just saying...there is no point in living if you are in that state. If you are in that state and want to live at the expense of the society...I think that is selfish. You want to live at the expense of SOMEONE ELSE? Tell me why that isn't selfish. Paris Hilton made movies, have a few music videos out, have her own perfume line, and opened up a few night clubs...I don't know her personally so I am not for her or against her, but those are the things that she did for society.

If a person is mentally ******ed and works at the grocery store, thats fine. I don't see a problem with that. Working at a grocery store is enough to support ones self. My mother raised three children by herself when we first moved to America. We were very poor, my mom was a waitress for a few years when we first moved here. She worked while my grandmother took care of us. She didn't make but 25K a year (about the same salary as a person working at a grocery store) and she was able to support herself and ALL three of us. It was hard but we worked it out. We didn't live off of the government or any free handouts. We didn't have any health insurance either, but luckily we were all very healthy. My mom eventually opened up her own restaurant and our life got better...but when we first moved to the USA, we were very broke. If my mom can support three kids on 25K a year, then I do not understand why other parents can't support their own children. 25K is like the bare min salary and we all live okay.

I think I agree with confettiflyer the most when it comes to medicaid. Yeah, there will be people that need it, but it shouldn't be given out like its free candy that will last for a lifetime. It should be limited to 3 years or something like that. Meaning after you have used it for 3 years you should be good enough to better yourself and move on.

Mentally ******ed people can live with family, they can get family support or like you say they can work at the grocery store thats fine. I think that is enough to support ones self. Basically if you are a human being you can/should be able to support yourself. If you can't and need help thats fine for a LIMITED AMOUNT OF TIME. There just shouldn't be any free handouts for a lifetime is all that I am saying.

Lastly, I don't have any experience with mentally ******ed people or people in vegetative states, so you were right I didn't know the difference.

''

$25K is NOT a minimum salary. Not even close. Some people are underemployed because that's all they can get, either because of health conditions, family conditions, or what's out there.

You don't know the difference between someone who's mentally disabled and someone in a vegetative state?? Have you never seen someone with Down's Syndrome? How did you make it this far in life?

I do think at some point we will have to put some limit on what we spend on people with persistent vegetative states/comas. It's very expensive to treat these people, and when the chance of recovery is slim to none, well... there's only so much money to go around. However, I think research is still coming out on what amount of mental capacity these people have. I don't think we want to say now who we keep alive and not at this point. But, I personally wouldn't want to be a shell of the person I am now, and I think a lot of us don't. We really should educate ourselves on living wills. I've let my family know my views, but it's always better to have that in writing.

A great book on how medical advances have made these difficult choices for us is by the lawyer for Nancy Cruzan's family (she was in a car accident, didn't have oxygen for 30 minutes, the hospital put in a feeding tube, and the family fought many years to have it taken out). It's called "Unplugged" by William H. Colby.

 

[SHC1984]

We have all seen tons of patients come into the pharmacy on medicaid but drives a 100K car. How do they abuse medicaid? I don't know, but one thing that I know for sure is that all these government programs are very easily abused. If they were not easily abuse then can someone please explain HOW can all these medicaid patients afford to drive these 100K+ cars?

I shouldn't have said medicaid give out money, but the government IS doing some serious free handouts to these people. You can argue and say the government isn't giving out a lot. Okay, fine...but please explain to me how do all these medicaid patients afford to drive these expensive cars? we have all seen it at the pharmacy. Just look next time.

My point is the government should really REALLY consider giving out ONLY the bare minimum that is required for survival. That way less people will abuse the system b/c the stuff doesn't look as attractive. Food comes to mind as something people would need the most, that's why I was giving that example. Just give out the minimum, ABSOLUTE minimum required for survival. Maybe then people will not see medicaid patients driving 100K cars.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

We have all seen tons of patients come into the pharmacy on medicaid but drives a 100K car. How do they abuse medicaid? I don't know, but one thing that I know for sure is that all these government programs are very easily abused. If they were not easily abuse then can someone please explain HOW can all these medicaid patients afford to drive these 100K+ cars?

I shouldn't have said medicaid give out money, but the government IS doing some serious free handouts to these people. You can argue and say the government isn't giving out a lot. Okay, fine...but please explain to me how do all these medicaid patients afford to drive these expensive cars? we have all seen it at the pharmacy. Just look next time.

I honestly don't think you know anything "for sure" about government programs. Your posts say otherwise. I've NEVER seen a Medicaid patient driving a 100K car and I've worked in pharmacy a lot longer than you have. I'm going on six years in the pharmacy now. I'm not doubting that you may have seen a Medicaid patient in an expensive car, but I seriously doubt you've seen TONS in the few months you've worked in a pharmacy. There are not TONS of 100K cars out on the streets, period. Regardless of who is driving them. Hyperbole in its finest.

 

[Filler]

...HOW can all these medicaid patients afford to drive these 100K+ cars?

They are driving Ferrari's, Maserati's and Maybach's?

 

[All4MyDaughter]

They are driving Ferrari's, Maserati's and Maybach's?

I have GOT to get on Medicaid so I can ditch the Kia, Toyota and Ford that my husband and I own.

In all seriousness, I know lots of people on Medicaid. I don't know ANYONE who drives a 100K car. Maybe I'm just sheltered.

 

[Jabberwocky12]

We have all seen tons of patients come into the pharmacy on medicaid but drives a 100K car. How do they abuse medicaid? I don't know, but one thing that I know for sure is that all these government programs are very easily abused. If they were not easily abuse then can someone please explain HOW can all these medicaid patients afford to drive these 100K+ cars?

I shouldn't have said medicaid give out money, but the government IS doing some serious free handouts to these people. You can argue and say the government isn't giving out a lot. Okay, fine...but please explain to me how do all these medicaid patients afford to drive these expensive cars? we have all seen it at the pharmacy. Just look next time.

Do you want to know how the fraud happens? I'll tell you how.

People sit down and take notes because they don't tell you this at the medicaid office. A4MD if you wanna delete or modify this then go ahead. I've been in the system and know some people who are that need it (and obtained legitimately), but if you want free gov't medicaid this is how to do it.

The system asks that you provide a dollar amount that you make by asking for the last month's wages. For people who work a variable-hour job then you just give them the checks with the least number of hours in a month (good for retail.) For the people who work 2+ jobs, they say they only work 1 job and give the hours with the least number of hours and say that is their primary job. For people who are unmarried they don't provide the income of the people who live with them such as boyfriends/girlfriends/babby daddys/mommas. If you have multiples of the aforementioned it gets lucrative since you have multiple SOs (although morally bankrupt in some circumstances.) If you REALLY want to get creative then you can get someone to write a letter on official looking letterhead saying you work for them and give wage amounts. The medicaid office is technically able to look at the board of labor and verify employment but they only do that really at renewal or if you give them reason to suspect fraud.

So yes there are ways to fraud the system, SHC. But look at the ways it happens; you work multiple jobs to survive, have multiple kids with multiple parents, are college students, etc. So the people trying to fraud the system are really people who could use the help more than others anyway; the government would have tried to assist them if they had more of a budget. The medicaid system has to reject people based on who is the poorest of the poor using a hierarchy/ranking system to check who makes the least and then work up from there.

Just don't tell anyone this; this i part of the medicaid crew and it's an exclusive club where even the top members are still struggling to survive.

EDIT: This is an honest-to-god thing. Not joking, this is how it happens. At least in my country and some surrounding counties. Also, the dollar amount they give for foodstamps is based on poverty levels for what it takes to eat nutritious food for families of certain sizes.

 

[SHC1984]

I honestly don't think you know anything "for sure" about government programs. Your posts say otherwise. I've NEVER seen a Medicaid patient driving a 100K car and I've worked in pharmacy a lot longer than you have. I'm going on six years in the pharmacy now. I'm not doubting that you may have seen a Medicaid patient in an expensive car, but I seriously doubt you've seen TONS in the few months you've worked in a pharmacy. There are not TONS of 100K cars out on the streets, period. Regardless of who is driving them. Hyperbole in its finest.

Okay, maybe not 100K, but I have seen them drive nice cars like BMW, Corvette, Lexus, Land Rover, etc. These people obviously shouldn't be on medicaid. If you are on medicaid you should be really poor and unable to afford a car. If you can afford to drive a BMW, you can afford to pay for private health insurance and not be on medicaid.


You haven't seen medicaid patients drive BMW pull up at the drive thru? Look next time!!!!

You do not think the government is giving too much? you don't think the system is too easily abused and that they should find a way to make it harder to abuse?

 

[Jabberwocky12]

Pg.5

Okay, maybe not 100K, but I have seen them drive nice cars like BMW, Corvette, Lexus, Land Rover, etc. These people obviously shouldn't be on medicaid. If you are on medicaid you should be really poor and unable to afford a car. If you can afford to drive a BMW, you can afford to pay for private health insurance and not be on medicaid.


You haven't seen medicaid patients drive BMW pull up at the drive thru? Look next time!!!!

You do not think the government is giving too much? you don't think the system is too easily abused and that they should find a way to make it harder to abuse?

The government tries to provide some semblance of a reasonable standard of living with the food. If people want to undercut that and make it last longer/spend it all at once on expensive items, then go ahead. Some people don't know how to budget. This is more of an observation for you SHC because I agree that some people suck at using the money they are given in a way that benefits them. I would personally budget down and make it last all month and if I had a few dollars left I would use it for food for the following month and keep a leg up. But that's me, and if one month I have a few dollars for a steak then I would buy it.