Medical Clerkship in Kairo

[Arwen29]

I'm a medical student in Vienna/Austria (hopefully finished in 1,5 years) and I'd like to do a medical clerkship in Kairo for about 4 weeks.
(I'd also like to go to Sweden, but I'll post that in another thread ;-) )
My questions:
1) is it possible without any Arab language-skills - just English?
2) which hospitals would you recommend?
3) anything special to know or to take with (like e.g. a white coat ..)?

I'd appreciate any hint or help!
Thanks!
Arwen

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[doc2mohsen]

hi Arwen29 i dont know the detailes but i think its too easy 😀 as regard to ur questions i think english will be good alone but u couldnt communicate with patients with english only doctors the best hospital will be kasr alainy u will need white coat and scrubs.
this my openion but u have to ask more and good luck😎

 

[Arwen29]

thanks, mohsen, for your quick answer🙂
shokran! (that's the only arab word I know 😉 )

I've already found kasr alainy in the internet, that's the university hospital, right?
I'm still trying to figure out, when I could go to Kairo, and then try to plan everything.
Another question:
Is it common for doctors to have proper private clother underneath their white coat (as in Britain), or could you wear scrubs during work?
What about gloves? I've heard from Southern American hospitals, that students should take gloves with them, because there are not enough ...

 

[Fascia Lata]

thanks, mohsen, for your quick answer🙂
shokran! (that's the only arab word I know 😉 )

I've already found kasr alainy in the internet, that's the university hospital, right?
I'm still trying to figure out, when I could go to Kairo, and then try to plan everything.
Another question:
Is it common for doctors to have proper private clother underneath their white coat (as in Britain), or could you wear scrubs during work?
What about gloves? I've heard from Southern American hospitals, that students should take gloves with them, because there are not enough ...

Hey Arwen,

Glad u r interested in visiting Cairo. I have some points to make:

First of all, I believe it is very difficult for non-Egyptian students to arrange clerkships in Egypt. The only way I can think of is applying thru the International Federation of Medical Students' Associations (www.ifmsa.org). I can assure you there is no other way to plan a rotation in Egypt. Some Egyptian med schools websites have links to "Applying to a clerkship" or whatever. These links are either dead or you will not get an answer at all. So, contact you own med school student association and show interest in Cairo/Egypt.

The other thing I want you to be aware of is that the main thing foreign students do in Egypt is tourism. No one is here to learn medicine. They probably end up going to the hospital a couple of times only. No matter what school you choose, there will be a touristic program that involves visiting the pyramids, Alexandria, Luxor, Sharm El Sheikh...etc. I myself was involved in escorting some of the foreign students to some of these places at some point of time. I haven't heard from a single visiting student that he/she has benefited from the visit scientifically.

Regrading gloves, that's right. There is a great shortage of gloves that even the local doctors/students no longer use any. They got used to that.

The dress code is very flexible. U don't even have to wear anything underneath ur white coat (just kidding ).

Hope that helped. have a great day.

 

[Fascia Lata]

See this link : http://www.ifmsa.net/public/ecscope.php?id=31

 

[Arwen29]

I didn't think it would be difficult to arrange a clerkship outside of a student's organisation ....
I find the glove- and dressing-code -hints quite helpful - and the link of course.

thanks a lot!

 

[Deviant84]

I second that Fascia Lata..

Arwen29, through the IFMSA, it's easy to get your clerkship.. although you might not end up in Cairo or Ain Shams universities, but at least you'll be able to make it to any of the government universities.. if so, try to choose one of the close cities to Cairo (Mansoura, Zagazig, Tanta, Ismailia or even Alexandria) and AVOID upper egypt (Elminia, Sohag, Assiout) as they are really far away from everything..😀

and honestly, i'm surprised that an international medical student is worried about the scientific part of his/her trip to Egypt😛.. You'll be too busy exploring the beauty of the ancient land..

regarding the white coat issue, if u don't feel like wearing it at all, don't even bother..

and English will be more than enough for you to communicate with doctors or students.. you might be lucky and find students who speak German too (they are rare, but they do exist)..

Auf Wiedersehen

 

[Arwen29]

😀
it's fun that you're all concerned about the cultural experience 😉....
but since I have an aunt in Kairo, I'm going to make the cultural journey seperately (and I've been in Egypt before ... some time ago)
so, yes, I do care about the medical/scientific-part of the experience. (Basically I want to see, how medicine/hospitals work in another part of the world, outside of central Europe.)
And that's also why I try to organize the clerkship on my own, 'cause I have a possibility to live in Kairo and like to stay there 😉

 

[Deviant84]

Good luck then👍

things are gonna be way much easier since you have your aunt overhere..

we hope u won't get disappointed though😀

 

[deeyala]

kasr El Aini student in here, and i am recommending you don't do it..


*puts flame suit on*

My own presepctive? that's the hospital , eventhough filled with wonderful doctors is starting to get really , uncomfortably run down.
Through my experience, it's a heartache to stand helplessly , unable to give the required medical care to your patient for lack of supplies/ money / professors' cooperation./ almost zero infection control 😡 ..etc

Personally, eventhough i am all for staying in Egypt, i'll make sure my kids get the chance to study abroad..


PS: lack of Arabic is a BIG disadvantage since you'll constantly need an intermediary man to communicate with your patients

 

[deeyala]

and guys, what's with the gloves thing? I have no problem buying mine in here?



LOL

thinking about it, if you mean lack of gloves at school, then i am seconding that..
iif you mean lack of gloves in Egpt, then i have to disagree i buy like two boxes monthly 😀

 

[Fascia Lata]

definitely we meant lack of gloves in school, not in Egypt in general.. When I was in the urology rotation, I had to bring my own gloves to do the PR exams coz the nurses never agreed to give me gloves claiming they r unnecessary!! I overheard them once saying : Howwa malo el doctor dah ma3woog leh (i.e. Why is this doc so arrogant?). This is because I simply refuse to touch a patient without my gloves on. I know this may sound weird, but my hygiene comes first. Some may argue that gloves may lessen ur clinical "sense" but who cares !!

Arwen, I hope u didn't perceive my post as if I was actually advising u to forget about the clnical/scientific part of the trip. I don't think that "exploring the beauty of the ancient land", as Deviant likes to call it, is the best thing u can do while u r on a clinical elective. I was implying that the main purpose of these Egyptian electives is, like it or not, tourism, not science/medicine. No body at the hospital will actually be very interested in spending so much time with a visiting student in order to convey the image of how medicine is practised, or not practised, in Egypt. The residents are really really busy and the teaching faculty never show up most of the time. U r simply attended by a student who is a member of the school's scientific association. What typically happens is that this student will arrange "a one hour visit" to the hospital and all the members of the "group" follow him/her while he/she shows them around the school/hospital and talks about how great clinical skills are in Egypt, as we compensate for the lack of sophisticated technology with superior "clincal skills". What a crap !! This may be the only time the visiting students will see the hospital. The rest of the time is actually devoted to "exploring the beauty of the ancient land". Interesting, huh?

Bottom line Arwen, if u have been to Egypt before, and have visited the tourist places, I think the elective in Egypt is a waste of a valuable time u can benefit from in another place on planet earth where medicne can be taught and practised.

For all those of u who r planning to start a war on me, I have been involved in this for a year, and I really really think it is CRAP !!

 

[Fascia Lata]

Another point I forgot to make is that most patients that students see r patients who r there for teaching purposes. They know their conditions very well, they memorize everthing about it in English, and actually dictate the "sheet" to the student who is suposed to present the case before a faculty member who in the best scenario will come 2-3 hours late, listen to the student recite what the "chronic" patient dictated him, and then argue with the student on why he/she has put a particular piece if information in the "past history" rather than in the "history of the present illness" section of the "sheet". These "chronic" patients, as the Egyptian students call them r not only found in medical departments, but even in surgical departments. There are many patients with hernias, tumors, hydroceles...etc who never undergo the surgery in order for them to keep working as "chronic patients". I forgot to say that the students have to pay the chronic patients after they dictate them the sheet.

Students rarely, if ever, encounter true patients who get admitted to the ward. These r cared for only by the residents and interns. Students normally have nothing to do with residents and interns or their patients.

 

[Arwen29]

mmm .... interesting points of view here....

so, to sum it up:
most of you think that from the learning point of view kasr al ainy is not recommendable because:
* no doctor takes care about teaching students
* from a hygienic point you could mainly learn how "not to do it"
* about medicin you could learn what is missing basically
* as a student you have hardly contact to "real" patients, and if, than I could not communicate with them (because of missing arabic skills)
* and there are no examining-gloves for doctors or students - I should bring them along on my own.

did I get you right? - no offense ;-)
so, your advise would be to look for another country for a clerkship?


bytheway: in austria also (almost) no doctor takes care about teaching students; and when we finish university we have to work (but we never learned the practical part before).
Hygiene could also be better in austria - we have a lot of problems with multiresistent bacterias (esp. staph.aureus) that are dragged from patient to patient ... but that's a different problem, right?
And as a student we can pass through practical weeks during university without having contact with patients (like talking to them, examining them ..)
But: we have to wear gloves in every contact with a patient 😉

 

[Deviant84]

Look Arwen29..

we all know that it really suxx overhere..

but no.. u could wear gloves whenever u like... just don't expect free supplies of ANYTHING here in egypt, coz we already have major financial issues everywhere in the country..

one more thing.. yes, the arabic language might be a problem while communicating with patients.. that's because most patients who seek medical care from hospitals supported by the government are of a lower class of the society (they can't afford paying private centres).. again..i said MOST, so that i won't be attacked by anyone..

i'm sorry if u thought that we advise u 2 take ur clerkship anywhere but here.. coz no.. u r more than welcome anytime in our country.. and believe me.. it's gonna be a really useful experience (no matter how much ppl would tell u that it suxx donkey balls)..

One last thing to add.. "hygeine" overhere is an acquired taste.. u gotta be careful.. that's it.. the same applies with syringes' disposal..etc.. some ppl r just careless.. but again.. they only harm no one but themselves🙄

peace out..

 

[hzma]

I graduated from Cairo Uni, and I must say i learned quite a lot. I saw a lot of patients and cases that were interesting and different, that you don't see any where else, and have helped me till now in my practice as a dr. And there were quite a few doctors who were interested in teaching, (even if some were residents at the time).
I think if u really want to learn from there you will. Your best shot would be if you found one of the other housestaff who are bilingual who can kind of lead you in rounds and such, i have lots of friends who speak germen who are residents there now.
PM me if u want me to hook u up with them.
Good luck!

 

[Fascia Lata]

I am really sorry Arwen if I sounded uninviting. I apologize if u took it that way. U r definitely more than welcome 🙂

I just was making sure u don't have unrealistic expectations.

Good luck and all the best !!

 

[Arwen29]

guys, I didn't feel uninvited, don't worry ...
but you are starting to really confuse me 😉

right at this point I'm trying to figure out, where to go for a clerkship abroad.
initially I wantet to go to Lambarene - but this turned out to be very complicated and far too expensive and it's a language-problem, too ('cause my French is very poor)

so I considered a clerkship in Kairo.
so all I try to find out is: would it be possible and not too complicated and can I learn something in medical issues and can I take some benefit out of that experience.
finding answers to this questions is not easy 😉 😀
all I really know is: it would be possible.

the thing with gloves and hygiene is not the big problem. I would take gloves with me (or buy some there) and that's it.

the main question is still: can I learn something there (also in patient's contact, in surgeries etc.) and without speaking Arab?
obviously yes if I'm lucky to find a doctor who speaks english or german and takes me along to explain things. right?
perhaps I'll just stop by in kasr alainy when I go to Kairo for holiday and get my own picture 😉

another question (hope I'm not bothering you): are there many female med-students and doctors? (don't wanna be the only girl around 🙄 )

 

[deeyala]

the main question is still: can I learn something there (also in patient's contact, in surgeries etc.) and without speaking Arab?
obviously yes if I'm lucky to find a doctor who speaks english or german and takes me along to explain things. right?
perhaps I'll just stop by in kasr alainy when I go to Kairo for holiday and get my own picture 😉

another question (hope I'm not bothering you): are there many female med-students and doctors? (don't wanna be the only girl around 🙄 )

YAAAAAAAAAAAAY! i hadn't realized you were a girl 😀
lol another one in here.. and yeah there are LOADS of females students and professors. so don't worry about that

as to the possibility of learning "something"..
Well , yeah you'll get to learn- we all eventually do
Problem is , it will take lots of stress, time, and heartache . and above all you need lots of personal charm to talk doctors into letting you see cases/ do some procedure with them actually supervising what you're doing..


The place is run-down, least to say is un-hygenic by all means and professors are generally not present and the rest of the staff members are generally un-copertative.

Trying to look at the bright side of it, there's a wonderful steady flow of patients, some excellent surgeries are regularly carried out there..
If you know any older reisdents there, they'll let introduce you to a "nicer" level of medecine than that reserved for med students.

learning, i 'd say it's "do-able" and "possible", but it's tough, tough, tough..!

As to your lack of Arabic, i think that too is possible to do without . You just need a co-operative resident/ student/ professor that is willing to exaplin things to you..
Medical Charts are written in English, so you can examine those and insepct charts written by other students..
Basically, you can do but it's a major disadvantage (up side to it, you won't listen to your average Egyptian patient complaining)

PS: if you ever get to Kasr el Aini, send me a message and we'll arrange a welcome reception and a tour 😀

 

[Arwen29]

😀
so THAT sounds better 😉

so if I get to Kasr el Aini (different spellings everywhere) it would be in january-march 2008 and I would like to do a surgical clerkship.
so if you're still working there at that time I would try to contact you, deeyala 👍

 

[deeyala]

😀
so THAT sounds better 😉

so if I get to Kasr el Aini (different spellings everywhere) it would be in january-march 2008 and I would like to do a surgical clerkship.
so if you're still working there at that time I would try to contact you, deeyala 👍

Just make up your mind and let me know, and hopefully i'll still be working there (keeping fingers crossed)


*Dee arranging the reception and tour programmes"

PS: i might as well mention i am a dental student, but don't worry about that "I know people" 😎
LOL

 

[mmed]

I graduated from Cairo Uni, and I must say i learned quite a lot. I saw a lot of patients and cases that were interesting and different, that you don't see any where else, and have helped me till now in my practice as a dr. And there were quite a few doctors who were interested in teaching, (even if some were residents at the time).
I think if u really want to learn from there you will. Your best shot would be if you found one of the other housestaff who are bilingual who can kind of lead you in rounds and such, i have lots of friends who speak germen who are residents there now.
PM me if u want me to hook u up with them.
Good luck!

I agree with hzma. I graduated from Cairo too and I believed I learned much. The faculty members are dedicated for teaching if you interested, but for sure will not push anyone especially after the widespread private classes. The friendly environment especially for guests from overseas are recognized and well appreciated. Good luck and keep us posted if you need any help.

 

[Heliopolis]

Hi Arwen,

In reading through this thread I found many inaccuracies and many views which are really very limited (no offense to anyone). Some students have not rotated with foreign visiting students, so perhaps they are not aware of the exchange programs that exist; or they haven't done enough travelling themselves to know that it's great just to see the world and it's various health concerns.

There are two major medical schools in Cairo: Cairo University and Ain Shams University (Faculties of Medicine). I'm a medical student at Ain Shams University's medical school. One of the student organizations at my school facilitates the student exhange program, and I'm sure they'd be delighted to have you. Their website includes some more information. If you're in the clinical portion of your education, I'd strongly recommend you take a clerkship in Tropical Medicine (I've seen many foreign visiting students enjoy this rotation especially). If you'd like more information on the electives you can go to this site: www.ausss.com. Also please feel free to send me a PM.

Also there's a conference that this organization is hosting for medical students and young physicians this February, from the 11th through the 14th. If you're interested in it, it's also on the site mentioned above.

Best of luck, and please let me know if you need any help in registering for a clerkship in Cairo.

 

[Arwen29]

thanks, heliopolis .....

at the moment I'm trying very hard to plan the summer-semester, which turned out to be more complicated than I thought .... but I'm still considering to go to Cairo! 👍