Medical school pedigree question

[StopPre77]

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I chose my school based on perceived "fit," and I understand--especially through the wisdom of a number of residents--that I am responsible for shaping my match options through step 1 and 3rd year evals and etc. Got it. However, one of the more conspicuous differences in opinion between SDN pre-med threads and med student threads seems to be regarding medical school pedigree. In short, for years on the pre-med side almost all posts I read stated that pedigree was good for elite academics and little else. Save $$$ over all things. Now, as I look for nuggets of wisdom regarding residency, many post-match posters note some (anything greater than none) level of advantage for students from top schools. How does school pedigree get perpetuated as so meaningless to pre-meds if there is at least some significance? What is meaningful pedigree for an applicant anyway: Ivy? Top 10? Top 25? Top 50? Or just a large school that is well known regardless of research rank? I guess I am just surprised to hear people speaking differently about something that once seemed to be so thoroughly disregarded (poster's responses all making accusations of dreadful pretentiousness). I would have rather been told: "you know what? If you work hard enough anywhere you'll be fine, but pedigree does not go totally unconsidered when matching" if that is closer to reality.

 

[Socrates25]

Once you are talking about med schools within the same tier, money should trump everything else.

If a top 30 school gives you a scholarship, take that any day of the week over paying full price at Harvard.

Med school rank does accept match success to some degree -- but not so much that its worth dropping a ton of extra money on.

 

[FSU2013]

There are so many variables in residency selection....see the nrmp charting the outcomes to get a better feel. All other things being equal, yes, a residency would pick someone from Harvard or Hopkins over a state school, but only rarely are all other things equal.

Prestige matters at prestigious programs, ie if you want to do residency at Harvard, you may want to go there for med school. Even still, I doubt many programs would select a hopkins student in the 50th percentile over a state school valedictorian.

Further, most people don't go into derm, radonc, ophtho, etc. If you want to do most specialties at most programs, state schools are fine. In other words, if you want to go into IM at a state school, it is better to save the 150k.

Short answer: niether side is wrong.

 

[IlDestriero]

The people on the pre med forum don't want to hear the truth and they minimize this bias. Saying things like most aren't going into academics, most aren't realistic candidates for the most competitive residencies in competitive specialties. That's false. Everyone has the chance to work harder, network, do some research, and become a superstar. I was a below average mcat and gpa student at a highly regarded school and I wiped the floor with most of my class. You never know how you're going to do until you're there. Premed folks want to think going to unranked school x is just as good as a top 20, and that rank only matters for Harvard, Hopkins and Stanford. The program directors acknowledge that attending a highly regarded school is weighed in the rank list. The problem is that there's no way to evaluate how much it will count for your application. I'm sure it is different at every program and every program director as well. Another thing you see when looking at residents for a fellowship spot is the fellowships history with different residency programs. If you've had a couple duds in the past you have to walk on water to get past that roadblock that you have no idea is even there. There are a couple off programs that we don't interview from at all. There's no way to predict that though. You need everything you can get to stand out and get ranked. How much that's worth to you is a personal decision. Also, for all the threads about it, most aren't going to be in the position of turning down Harvard and Penn for a full ride to the #35 ranked research school.

 

[FSU2013]

The people on the pre med forum don't want to hear the truth and they minimize this bias. Saying things like most aren't going into academics, most aren't realistic candidates for the most competitive residencies in competitive specialties. That's false. Everyone has the chance to work harder, network, do some research, and become a superstar. I was a below average score student at a highly regarded school and I wiped the floor with most of my class. They want to believe going to unranked school x is just as good as a top 20, and that it's only true for Harvard and Stanford. The program directors acknowledge that attending a highly regarded school is weighed in the rank list. The problem is that there's no way to evaluate how much it will count for your application. I'm sure it is different at every program and every program director as well. Another thing you see when looking at residents for a fellowship spot is the fellowships history with different residency programs. If you've had a couple duds in the past you have to walk on water to get past that roadblock that you have no idea is even there. There are a couple off programs that we don't interview from at all. There's no way to predict that though. You need everything you can get to stand out and get ranked. How much that's worth to you is a personal decision. Also, for all the threads about it, most aren't going to be in the position of turning down Harvard and Penn for a full ride to the #35 ranked research school.

Are you making the argument that most people go into academics and/or the highly sought after specialties? Sorry if I misunderstood.

 

[drizzt3117]

I changed my mind during med school about academics vs private practice; if I'd known going in that I was going to do academic medicine I may have ended up at the top 5 options I had rather than the top 25 school I'm at on scholarship. That being said, I generally really liked my med school experience and it may not matter in the end.

 

[Phyozo]

It matters, but it's impossible to know how much, as one of the posters above said.

I went to a top 25 school, but got a few interviews at top 10 schools and by far the majority of the other applicants I met came from top 10 schools. It gets kind of ridiculous sitting next to stanford, harvard, penn, ucsf all day long during the interview day...

 

[IlDestriero]

Are you making the argument that most people go into academics and/or the highly sought after specialties? Sorry if I misunderstood.

Read the sentence or two after the one you bolded. Don't sell yourself short and be careful about passing up on opportunities. The point is everyone is a potential candidate for residency at Mass general, Hopkins and Stanford and it's not just applicable to people interested in careers in academic medicine. The quality of your residency training matters more than your medical school. Everyone benefits from a 5 star training program, not just those looking to remain on the faculty.

 

[Valadi]

Unfortunately the only way to know if having a prestigious academic pedigree would benefit you is to be a 4th year student applying for the match.

I'm coming from a state school without a program in the field I'm interested in and am going through all sorts of hoops to stand out because no one knows where my school is. Contastingly, I've met people with similar stats to myself from big-name schools that have gotten many interviews because their school has well-known faculty, is easily recognized, etc.

Probably the most advantageous aspect of coming from a highly-regarded school is that you have several well-known faculty who can go to bat for you.

 

[SoundofSilver]

I suppose how much the pedigree of your school matters depends on your goals.

Personally, I'm not aiming for a super competitive residency and I don't really need to do my residency at a place like mass gen.

I chose the cheaper school over the brand name school.

 

[kautionwirez]

where does nymc fit in this?

 

[Chakrabs]

where does nymc fit in this?

Solid school, will get you wherever you want to go provided you're willing to work for it. Expensive as hell though. If you can get in there, you can probably get into Downstate which is also nearby. Equal quality at half the price.

 

[UnderPar22]

Shoot for the best school you can get into. Practically speaking, top 25. Generally, good med schools will have good hospitals/residency programs. You'll be able to make connections and get to where you want to go. Also, you'll invariably change your mind regarding career choices during med school, so leave all door opens and attend the best school you can. That's not to say that you'll close doors with lower ranked schools, you'll just have to work harder to open them. In the end prestige certainly helps, but it won't matter if you don't work hard.

 

[2gunornot2gun]

noob question:

when we talk about rank what rankings are we talking about? US news? NIH funding?

 

[BigRedBeta]

: "you know what? If you work hard enough anywhere you'll be fine, but pedigree does not go totally unconsidered when matching" if that is closer to reality.

This. But fit does matter in terms of ability to actually be successful - if you're happy, it's easier to put in the constant, high level effort needed to achieve at the highest levels.

In the end, the actual impact of pedigree is so impossible to predict that picking a school based off "name" is probably futile. Your specialty is a huge factor in all of this - obviously some fields value reputation more than others, and the reputation of your medical school within that field matters more than just the overall name on your diploma. Included in the reputation of your school within that field also includes the connections your faculty have to programs throughout the country and the past experiences a residency program has had with graduates from your school. If you're going into urology, does it matter that your school has a great internal med reputation?

 

[thoffen]

My $0.02 on this:

It looks impressive on a name tag. Sitting next to an Ivy leaguer on interview day gets you a wee bit intimidated.

That being said, if you have the personality of a brick, nothing in your CV is going to counteract that. I'm not suggesting that attendees of top schools are more or less likely to be bricks; what I am saying is that having diverse experiences and being able to demonstrate enthusiasm and real lessons learned from them is more important.

I, obviously, have no idea what bias PDs and interviewers might have. Top programs match very well. They also tend to admit top students. Who's to say that these same individuals wouldn't match equally well had they gone to their state school instead?

 

[Law2Doc]

... The program directors acknowledge that attending a highly regarded school is weighed in the rank list....

actually they put it on the list well behind multiple other factors, which means it may not even come into play.

From what I've seen, PDs have biases for and against certain schools and they are rarely based on prestige or US News rankings. A PD might dislike the clinical training past residents coming out of X school have had, might feel that he gets jerked around by too many people from school Y each match who say they are ranking the program #1 and don't, and so on. Or he may love the folks he's gotten from school Z the past few years, and adopt that as a feeder school. He often will have a bias toward regional med schools because someone attending school in, say, Nebraska is more likely to actually want to stay in Nebraska. And so on. So school name is certainly relevant, but not so much an issue of prestige/ranking that some premeds seem to think. Which is why it's pretty foolhardy to put that at the top of your med school wish let, because PDs certainly aren't going by US News. To them, your "top ranked" school may be the one they swore never to give an interview to again after the last awful resident they got from there, while the mid-ranked place cranking out solid residents with strong clinical skills year after year may be tops of his interview list.

 

[DoctwoB]

An old question with an unknowable answer.

Top schools clearly have much better match lists. How much is from school name itself, how much is from factors associated with being at a top school (better research opportunities, big name rec letter writers, etc.), and how much is from the simple factor that students that attend top schools tend to be top students is unclear. There will likely be a lot of variation between specialties and even between programs.

Surveys seem to put it as a factor, but much lower then grades, step 1, etc.

 

[chronicidal]

What bothers me about this question, what makes it so difficult, is that it's such a matter of DEGREES.

When you're weighing differences in pedigree and differences in cost, what do you do in the following situation?

-The reputation and regional difference is between Harvard/Hopkins and WashU. Minimal but existent. Suppose a desire for academics and a competitive specialty that is not radiology.

-The cost difference is less than $100k, just $75k in loans, due to various need and merit-based financial aid offers.

😕

 

[drizzt3117]

I don't think that you'll be hampered by going to Wash U for any specialty. Any differences you're seeing is likely due to preference. Someone matched UCSF neurosurg from Wash U this year (word on the street was that guy was possibly the top neurosurg candidate in the country this year).

You guys are thinking about pedigree all wrong. The biggest differences will be at the bottom of the list, not the top. Any top 25 program will put their top students into elite residencies in competitive specialties. The bigger effect is on low/mid tier students.

What bothers me about this question, what makes it so difficult, is that it's such a matter of DEGREES.

When you're weighing differences in pedigree and differences in cost, what do you do in the following situation?

-The reputation and regional difference is between Harvard/Hopkins and WashU. Minimal but existent. Suppose a desire for academics and a competitive specialty that is not radiology.

-The cost difference is less than $100k, just $75k in loans, due to various need and merit-based financial aid offers.

😕

 

[BigRedBeta]

What bothers me about this question, what makes it so difficult, is that it's such a matter of DEGREES.

When you're weighing differences in pedigree and differences in cost, what do you do in the following situation?

-The reputation and regional difference is between Harvard/Hopkins and WashU. Minimal but existent. Suppose a desire for academics and a competitive specialty that is not radiology.

-The cost difference is less than $100k, just $75k in loans, due to various need and merit-based financial aid offers.

😕

Degrees...exactly...what does this actually mean in terms of rank lists? 5 spots, 30 spots, 75 spots? Surely there are some PD's that will make this a bigger issue than others, but there are others who won't care. That's what makes the whole issue so difficult. You can't know which programs will make it a priority and which won't. The Charting Outcomes in the Match data helps as far overall trends,but doesn't explain particular programs. In the end, it's a variable that in some instances may matter absolutely and in others won't matter a single iota.