Medical Schools that score below the national average for Step 1 scores

[Rainbow Zebra]

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I would to hear about the schools where the medical students (on average) score on below the national average for STep 1 scores. I haven't come across one yet. Does anyone know, or is it like Lake Woebegone, all medical school Step 1 scores are above average??

 

[doctorleospaceman]

Probably any caribbean school

 

[gyngyn]

You might be surprised.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Based on what has been said on this forum before by reputable members, I don't think there's any reliable way to get this data. If I were to hazard a guess, schools with higher MCAT scores generally have higher Step 1 medians, but that's just a guess and a generalization.

 

[deleted718115]

I am surprised that even Harvard, John Hopkins don't have 100% pass rates.

 

[Rainbow Zebra]

So 4-5 Caribbean Schools allow almost all the mainland schools to say they are "above average"? Isn't this published somewhere by USLME??

 

[WedgeDawg]

I am surprised that even Harvard, John Hopkins don't have 100% pass rates.

There's always that one (maybe two) person/people who, for some reason, aren't prepared to take step 1 or have test anxiety, or something else like that.

 

[gyngyn]

Based on what has been said on this forum before by reputable members, I don't think there's any reliable way to get this data. If I were to hazard a guess, schools with higher MCAT scores generally have higher Step 1 medians, but that's just a guess and a generalization.

Some schools with high MCAT's have low Step 1 scores.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Some schools with high MCAT's have low Step 1 scores.

Yeah, that's why I said it was a general trend. But I would wager the highest Step 1 scores rest with schools with the highest MCAT scores, which isn't to say that all schools with high MCAT scores have high Step 1 scores, or that schools with low MCAT scores can't have high Step 1 scores.

 

[Rainbow Zebra]

Some schools with high MCAT's have low Step 1 scores.

Given the amount of published data on MCAT Score averages for accepted and matriculating students, why all the mystery about average Step 1 scores??
THis inquiring mind wants to know. I think this is a better measure of student performance and the curriculum than say the match list, which is published ad nauseam by schools. With so much curriculum change going on, it would be nice to see the trend on Step 1 and Step 2 scores before the change, and when my 2020 class gets to Step 2.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Given the amount of published data on MCAT Score averages for accepted and matriculating students, why all the mystery about average Step 1 scores??
THis inquiring mind wants to know. I think this is a better measure of student performance and the curriculum than say the match list, which is published ad nauseam by schools. With so much cirriculum change going on, it would be nice to see the trend on Step 1 and Step 2 scores before the change, and when my 2020 class gets to Step 2.

Step 1, from my understanding, is due to individual motivation, standardized test taking ability, and effort/dedication put into studying than school-related factors. Most (but not all) top schools (meaning those with the highest MCAT scores) have medians of 235-245. However, this is likely because they recruit the strongest test-takers who are then likely to do well on yet another standardized test. If you took a student from Harvard who got a 255, go back in time, and throw him in at Penn State instead, he'll probably still score around 250-260 (or whatever the CI is for step 1 scores).

 

[gyngyn]

Given the amount of published data on MCAT Score averages for accepted and matriculating students, why all the mystery about average Step 1 scores??
THis inquiring mind wants to know. I think this is a better measure of student performance and the curriculum than say the match list, which is published ad nauseam by schools. With so much cirriculum change going on, it would be nice to see the trend on Step 1 and Step 2 scores before the change, and when my 2020 class gets to Step 2.

Student Affairs Deans are strongly against using USMLE scores as barriers to interviews.
As an escalation for highly competitive residencies cuts off more and more students there is a commensurate resistance to publishing Step 1 scores.

 

[ivorypearls]

Accepted applicants to UT Medical Branch has an average MCAT of 31, yet place second in the highest Step 1 scores in the state of Texas (beneath Baylor College of Medicine ofc). It's several points higher than UT Southwestern, which has an average MCAT of 36. Something else must be going on here. My wager is that higher step scores deal more with personal ambition of the students and med school curriculum, rather than success at MCAT.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Accepted applicants to UT Medical Branch has an average MCAT of 31, yet place second in the highest Step 1 scores in the state of Texas (beneath Baylor College of Medicine ofc). It's several points higher than UT Southwestern, which has an average MCAT of 36. Something else must be going on here. My wager is that higher step scores deal more with personal ambition of the students, rather than success at MCAT.

Keep in mind the standard deviation for step 1 scores is >20

 

[ivorypearls]

Keep in mind the standard deviation for step 1 scores is >20

Still, the fact that their averages fall within similar ranges (despite very different MCAT scores) says something

 

[WedgeDawg]

Still, the fact that their averages fall within similar ranges (despite very different MCAT scores) says something

Okay, I'm not sure where you're getting this information, but I don't think it's correct.

Source 1 - see bottom of page 1
Source 2

Step 1 mean for UTMB 2011-2012: 230
Step 1 mean for UTSW 2011: 233
Step 1 mean for UTSW 2012: 235

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[ivorypearls]

Also to answer OP's original question: Rush Medical College has a below avg Step 1 score. Only slightly below average though

 

[Rainbow Zebra]

Student Affairs Deans are strongly against using USMLE scores as barriers to interviews.
As an escalation for highly competitive residencies cuts off more and more students there is a commensurate resistance to publishing Step 1 scores.

So, medical schools are only giving us "consumers" a partial picture of what we are signing up for?? Student Affairs Deans tend to be different members of the faculty than the CHairs and Residency Directors, who are different than the Admissions Deans/Directors. Seems the medical schools like to selectively publish data that makes them look good (always number 1 in the State (and it is a relatively small state)), Leap Frog this, Best Doctors in AMerica that.

Even though the SEC is flawed, it does require publicly traded companies (and their auditors) to report data consistently and accurately, and not rely on "self-reporting" surveys like USNWR. I think the Joint Commission is a self-regulating body too, isn't it. If we allowed publicly traded companies to run like Universities, and hence Medical Schools, I'm sure there would be howls of self-dealing. What am I missing here??

 

[ivorypearls]

Okay, I'm not sure where you're getting this information, but I don't think it's correct.

Source 1 - see bottom of page 1
Source 2

Step 1 mean for UTMB 2011-2012: 230
Step 1 mean for UTSW 2011: 233
Step 1 mean for UTSW 2012: 235

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Keep in mind UTMB went through a major curriculum change around that time. I can't recall the exact figures, but I definitely recall that UTMB had the higher recent average Step 1 during my interviews (UTMB ~238 vs UTSW's ~235)

 

[Rainbow Zebra]

Keep in mind UTMB went through a major curriculum change around that time. I can't recall the exact figures, but I definitely recall that UTMB had the higher recent average Step 1 during my interviews (UTMB ~238 vs UTSW's ~235)

Precisely my point, with all the curriculum changes, and schools "experimenting" with compressed pre-clinical years, those in years 2019/2020 may pay the price when residency comes around, due to no fault of their own.

 

[wasteofspace323]

So, medical schools are only giving us "consumers" a partial picture of what we are signing up for?? Student Affairs Deans tend to be different members of the faculty than the CHairs and Residency Directors, who are different than the Admissions Deans/Directors. Seems the medical schools like to selectively publish data that makes them look good (always number 1 in the State (and it is a relatively small state)), Leap Frog this, Best Doctors in AMerica that.

Even though the SEC is flawed, it does require publicly traded companies (and their auditors) to report data consistently and accurately, and not rely on "self-reporting" surveys like USNWR. I think the Joint Commission is a self-regulating body too, isn't it. If we allowed publicly traded companies to run like Universities, and hence Medical Schools, I'm sure there would be howls of self-dealing. What am I missing here??

The masturbatory sense of self righteous privilege that comes with all forms of academia, but is especially concentrated in medicine.

Remember, it's okay when med schools do it!

 

[WedgeDawg]

Keep in mind UTMB went through a major curriculum change around that time. I can't recall the exact figures, but I definitely recall that UTMB had the higher recent average Step 1 during my interviews (UTMB ~238 vs UTSW's ~235)

I mean, okay, sure, but here are a few points to consider:

1) UTSW was 236 median in 2013 (sourced above) - I highly doubt they've been going down, particularly when they've been going up for the past few years (as has the national median)

2) Standard deviation is still 20+

3) Without sources, this doesn't really matter anyway

4) Median MCAT for UTSW is 33-34 while median MCAT for UTMB is 32 so they're not that different

5) Comparing schools in Texas might be different from comparing schools in other states due to their unique application system and where students with multiple acceptances matriculate (for instance, because of the Texas system, people will really only apply OOS if they have numbers for top schools, so you have a "brain drain" out of Texas to these top schools, so even if the median accepted MCAT for UTSW is 34, their matriculant average may be much lower because the tippy top applicants are getting scholarships to other schools or acceptances to schools like Harvard)

 

[ivorypearls]

I mean, okay, sure, but here are a few points to consider:

1) UTSW was 236 median in 2013 (sourced above) - I highly doubt they've been going down, particularly when they've been going up for the past few years (as has the national median)

2) Standard deviation is still 20+

3) Without sources, this doesn't really matter anyway

4) Median MCAT for UTSW is 33-34 while median MCAT for UTMB is 32 so they're not that different

5) Comparing schools in Texas might be different from comparing schools in other states due to their unique application system and where students with multiple acceptances matriculate (for instance, because of the Texas system, people will really only apply OOS if they have numbers for top schools, so you have a "brain drain" out of Texas to these top schools, so even if the median accepted MCAT for UTSW is 34, their matriculant average may be much lower because the tippy top applicants are getting scholarships to other schools or acceptances to schools like Harvard)

Hmm but MSAR reports 35 medium for UTSW. A 35 MCAT greatly differs from 32 imo. But I see what you mean about distinguishing matriculated vs. accepted students. Interesting concept of brain drain.. I'm a Texas app and I've never heard of that before! ....Hopefully it's true so it increases my chances at UTSW/Baylor.

I agree with OP about making Step scores more transparent for every school. It is really difficult to find reliable sources on the interwebs if it's not presented at the interview.

 

[Psai]

Step is an individual effort. There is already too much of a reliance on test scores but they want people who can pass the boards. Also there aren't any better ways to stratify applicants

 

[Rainbow Zebra]

The masturbatory sense of self righteous privilege that comes with all forms of academia, but is especially concentrated in medicine.

Remember, it's okay when med schools do it!

Yes, I heard a story about someone sitting at a dinner between 2 Chairs, and they were discussing their "royalty" contracts with publishers. I asked my Dad about it, and he said yes, the bigwigs get actually paid for publishing books, even though grad students and post docs write most of the chapters for them, and they don't get a dime (a rite of passage, or something like that). What other profession uses the slave labor of graduate students and post-docs/residents to do the writing, then they get their "admins" to edit, and the bigwigs collect the checks. Okay, maybe other places (like Lawyers and big Consulting companies) do that too. I think there is definitely something rotten in the insular academic environment. I applaud Senator Charles Schumer for all the light he tries to shine on the most egregious offenders. A couple of Chairs I'm familiar with have had to step down in the past few years due to making the Universities look bad with their "consulting" fees while on the payrolls of the "U". Maybe all this "disclosure" requirements will have people look a little harder at the whole publicly supported, tax-exempt status of Universities.

 

[getdown]

I mean what are you going to do? NOT go to a med school with a lower average STEP1 score? Most people don't have the luxury of choosing between multiple schools. Plus like Psy said, STEP 1 is an individual effort on how much studying, dedication and natural ability to retain crap tons of information. Schools don't generally teach to STEP1 as that would be pretty stupid and not an effective way to teach medicine. You don't produce good doctors by teaching to a test. And that's generally the problem these days as new residents are book smarts but clinically poor.

 

[steelersfan1243]

I think you can expect a higher STEP 1 score from schools with a student body that either is out there to prove themselves or feel like they have a chip on their shoulder.

Hofstra on their interview day said they have averaged a STEP I score one standard deviation above the average for the past three years.....

 

[nycement1]

TCMC class of 2017 had an avg step 1 of 218-219; average natl was a 230

 

[Cookie04]

Accepted applicants to UT Medical Branch has an average MCAT of 31, yet place second in the highest Step 1 scores in the state of Texas (beneath Baylor College of Medicine ofc). It's several points higher than UT Southwestern, which has an average MCAT of 36. Something else must be going on here. My wager is that higher step scores deal more with personal ambition of the students and med school curriculum, rather than success at MCAT.

Actually the MSAR isn't always the most accurate when it comes to MCAT stats. According to UTSW's website the avg MCAT of matriculated students is 33.87. And at my interview day they actually said that the most recent step 1 scores on average were 238.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Actually the MSAR isn't always the most accurate when it comes to MCAT stats. According to UTSW's website the avg MCAT of matriculated students is 33.87. And at my interview day they actually said that the most recent step 1 scores on average were 238.

MSAR shows accepted. The website shows matriculated. Matriculated is a subset of accepted, and everywhere but the top schools, accepted scores will be higher than matroculant scores.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Actually the MSAR isn't always the most accurate when it comes to MCAT stats. According to UTSW's website the avg MCAT of matriculated students is 33.87. And at my interview day they actually said that the most recent step 1 scores on average were 238.

Also to go off what the 'Dawg said median doesn't equal the mean, sometimes the variation between the two can be more than you expect.

 

[GrapesofRath]

TCMC class of 2017 had an avg step 1 of 218-219; average natl was a 230

Do you know the percent of those who passed? It's rather possible the % of those who failed on the first attempt is over 5%.

 

[Yaravan]

it feels like every medical school is above the national average; at least that is what you keep reading

 

[Raininleuf]

it feels like every medical school is above the national average; at least that is what you keep reading

can you imagine if a med school touts "we have a below national average!!!!"

 

[ivorypearls]

can you imagine if a med school touts "we have a below national average!!!!"

The schools I interviewed at with sub average scores were the only ones that didn't mention statistics at all lol

 

[Psai]

I think you can expect a higher STEP 1 score from schools with a student body that either is out there to prove themselves or feel like they have a chip on their shoulder.

Hofstra on their interview day said they have averaged a STEP I score one standard deviation above the average for the past three years.....

Rofl the average step 1 score of a new school with an untested curriculum is higher than every single other school in the nation? Yeah no, I'm not buying it. No one has a step one average of 250.

 

[futuremdforme]

How many test takers are internationals? If there more IMGs and FMGs than American grads, it's actually not so insane to think about nearly all US schools being higher than average.

 

[nycement1]

Do you know the percent of those who passed? It's rather possible the % of those who failed on the first attempt is over 5%.

Our class had about 96 students (i think) during second year, and I'm pretty sure 6-8 failed.

 

[nycement1]

How many test takers are internationals? If there more IMGs and FMGs than American grads, it's actually not so insane to think about nearly all US schools being higher than average.

This is a big part of it. Also, does the NRMP calculate the avg to include the fails?

 

[Dr. Death]

Is one answer to this question is "All DO schools"?

 

[Anicetus]

when I think of "standardized test taking ability" I think of sections like verbal or sections where you are presented with new material on the spot.

Step 1 is just a massive final for preclinical knowledge. IMO it's more about how much you clocked in than an "ability to take tests". No one gets that far as to take step 1 being a "bad test taker".

 

[DokterMom]

5) Comparing schools in Texas might be different from comparing schools in other states due to their unique application system and where students with multiple acceptances matriculate (for instance, because of the Texas system, people will really only apply OOS if they have numbers for top schools, so you have a "brain drain" out of Texas to these top schools, so even if the median accepted MCAT for UTSW is 34, their matriculant average may be much lower because the tippy top applicants are getting scholarships to other schools or acceptances to schools like Harvard)

Interesting concept of brain drain.. I'm a Texas app and I've never heard of that before! ....Hopefully it's true so it increases my chances at UTSW/Baylor.

I suspect the "brain drain" of top scorers out of Texas is essentially offset by a tendency for the few OOS acceptances allowed to go to OOS top-scorers who are attracted by the ultra-cheap cost of attendance.

 

[goldy490]

Florida International is fairly new, basically a no-name school with a weird curriculum and relatively low average MCAT (30.87 as per interview) but their average step scores (237) were the best in the state of Florida, beating out places like UMiami (230) and UF (231 I think). I think some of the new schools with weird curriculums actually end up teaching pretty well because they got to design a system from the ground up where more established schools have been using the same potentially outdated style for years.

 

[Mad Jack]

I am surprised that even Harvard, John Hopkins don't have 100% pass rates.

Every class has people with issues, either emotional, situational, or otherwise that prevent them from succeeding on the Steps. Being smart doesn't mean you're emotionally stable or have a stable life outside of school.

 

[tenblackalps]

Florida International is fairly new, basically a no-name school with a weird curriculum and relatively low average MCAT (30.87 as per interview) but their average step scores (237) were the best in the state of Florida, beating out places like UMiami (230) and UF (231 I think). I think some of the new schools with weird curriculums actually end up teaching pretty well because they got to design a system from the ground up where more established schools have been using the same potentially outdated style for years.

On my interview day they said that half of the class scores higher than 250. They take Step 1 at the end of third year.

 

[Psai]

On my interview day they said that half of the class scores higher than 250. They take Step 1 at the end of third year.

I've always wondered if that helps or hurts more. You forget so many basic science facts but learn a lot of clinically oriented information

 

[goldy490]

I would imagine it helps because if nothing else you get a ton more time to study. When I interviewed there they said that basically everyone spends their whole 3rd year slowly preparing for step 1

I wonder how that stacks up against schools like Emory and Duke where they compress the first two years down and take step 1 early?

 

[Psai]

I would imagine it helps because if nothing else you get a ton more time to study. When I interviewed there they said that basically everyone spends their whole 3rd year slowly preparing for step 1

I wonder how that stacks up against schools like Emory and Duke where they compress the first two years down and take step 1 early?

Third year isn't exactly full of time to study for step 1 when you're trying to keep up for the shelves

 

[studentdocftw]

Emory had average of 233, Duke had average of 241.

 

[seminoma]

I think you can expect a higher STEP 1 score from schools with a student body that either is out there to prove themselves or feel like they have a chip on their shoulder.

Hofstra on their interview day said they have averaged a STEP I score one standard deviation above the average for the past three years.....

So Hofstra averages a 250 for the past 3 years? Ok.