Medical schools won't accept it

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fasttortoise

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I went to Ireland to study, completed my BSc degree, then worked for 6 years and served in the Marines for 18 years. So my BSc degree is 24 years old. ALL the medical schools I am interested in said no way, my degree is too old, my courses are too old but more importantly they need an AMERICAN undergraduate degree. Alarmingly, they said, if I do a MS degree (which will take me a year), that's not acceptable to them. They want an American UNDERGRADUATE degree. I don't know what to do. Can you suggest a quick way for me to get a BS degree? Thank you!
 
I know a kid who got a Psychology degree and Biology degree in two years.

Just pick anything, any easy degree you are somewhat interested in....they don't care, they like humanities. Do French!! Cool! Become fluent in a foreign language!
 
if you have a language major you can usually test out of the lower division - if you pass the next class level (that they don't have the option of testing out of) then all the previous classes count toward your total credits. Do you know other languages?

Also, usually by the time you are done with pre-recs you almost have a minor in Chemistry.
 
Maybe he did it out of high-school with dual enrollment/AP credits. Then there's CLEP exams which allow you to test out of some college classes.

As for the psyc/bio dual-degree, at some schools there's a large overlap between courses from the two departments. So, if you take the right courses, you'll be fulfilling requirements towards both degrees.
 
How in the world did he get two degrees in two years?

I finished a second bachelor's degree in three semesters + 2 summers at a tier 1 state school. Requirements for second undergraduate degrees at many/most colleges are much simpler than the myriad requirements for a traditional first undergrad degree. For example, in my case I was exempt from writing requirements and all 'area' requirements (history, language, etc. etc.); I just needed to ensure some minimum amount of credits completed at the institution and have completed over half of my major's credits at the institution.
 
I finished a second bachelor's degree in three semesters + 2 summers at a tier 1 state school. Requirements for second undergraduate degrees at many/most colleges are much simpler than the myriad requirements for a traditional first undergrad degree. For example, in my case I was exempt from writing requirements and all 'area' requirements (history, language, etc. etc.); I just needed to ensure some minimum amount of credits completed at the institution and have completed over half of my major's credits at the institution.

Lucky you! Unfortunately my degree is too old and credits won't transfer at schools in my area.
 
I know a little French - forgotten most of it though.

There are other areas you can test out of; math and computer science come to mind.

Also, if you take only the classes you need for your degree (and med school requirements), and take summer classes you can get it done in 3 years fairly easily. Important to remember that you will want to take the Mcat one year prior to graduating (approx), so you want the pre-recs done before then.
You would want to pick a major that is easy for you - and doesn't take up too much time.
I caution that if you do choose French as a major to be sure your school offers classes regularly! Some offer some languages every other year or so.
 
Someone I met gave me this site and asked me to ask one LizzyM. I don't know who this person is or how I can contact her but I was told she will have good suggestions for me.
 
Lucky you! Unfortunately my degree is too old and credits won't transfer at schools in my area.

I'm pretty sure just the status of already having a bachelors (regardless of age and credit transfer-ability) would qualify you to play by these 'second-degree' rules at most universities. I would look into it.
 
You would want to pick a major that is easy for you - and doesn't take up too much time.

My UG degree was in Physics. I have forgotten ALL physics now. I think if I major in Physics again, it will be a lot of hard work. I wonder what majors are "easy"??
 
You know, it's probably a long shot - but might be worth looking into. You MIGHT be able to transfer your credits from Ireland to a US university, then take the required credits to graduate from their university. For example at my university you needed at least 15 credits to get a degree from there if you had transferred from somewhere else.
Surely out of all the universities there would be one that would accept old transcripts???
 
I'm pretty sure just the status of already having a bachelors (regardless of age and credit transfer-ability) would qualify you to play by these 'second-degree' rules at most universities. I would look into it.

I am sure there might be some universities like that. Excelsior College is the name I was given. But none of the universities in my 3-hour commute region are willing to grant credit for courses that are so outdated.
 
Someone I met gave me this site and asked me to ask one LizzyM. I don't know who this person is or how I can contact her but I was told she will have good suggestions for me.

LizzyM's profile
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/member.php?u=63905

I am sure there might be some universities like that. Excelsior College is the name I was given. But none of the universities in my 3-hour commute region are willing to grant credit for courses that are so outdated.

I think the soonest you would want to be done anyway would be one year after taking necessary pre-recs for Mcat, Just by taking 4 consecutive semesters of CHM that would put you at a min of 2.5 years...That last year you would be applying and working on the rest of your degree requirements...
 
Just out of curiosity, are you sure you want to try to go to medical school at this point? Based on the amount of time you counted in your post, I have to guess that you're at least 46 years old. If you did a bachelor's degree in three years, that puts you at 49, med school finished by 53, and residency done at 56. This is assuming the best case scenario, which is not true for everyone. You'd have maybe ten to fifteen years to practice, which would barely be enough time to pay off loans, let alone pay back the opportunity cost from lost wages during that time.

I mean, if you really need to do it to be happy, go for it. Just know that the entire thing will take up a pretty good chunk of the last working years of your life.
 
Just out of curiosity, are you sure you want to try to go to medical school at this point? Based on the amount of time you counted in your post, I have to guess that you're at least 46 years old. If you did a bachelor's degree in three years, that puts you at 49, med school finished by 53, and residency done at 56. This is assuming the best case scenario, which is not true for everyone. You'd have maybe ten to fifteen years to practice, which would barely be enough time to pay off loans, let alone pay back the opportunity cost from lost wages during that time.

I mean, if you really need to do it to be happy, go for it. Just know that the entire thing will take up a pretty good chunk of the last working years of your life.

yes i am 100% sure i can make a difference. i want to be a doctor.
 
I saw LizzyM's profile. I don't feel like bothering her. I am sure she's better things to do that bother with people like me.
 
Surely out of all the universities there would be one that would accept old transcripts???

Not in my 3-hour commute region. That still means I will be driving 6 hours every time I go to college. Another reason for that could be that I have 53 to 56% marks. This seems awfully low to American universities but in the 175-odd class sizes back in Ireland, I was always the 2nd, 3rd or 4th in my class.
 
Actually, I find it very difficult to ask specific individuals for help.
But thanks.

It is also against the SDN terms of service to create a thread for that purpose. However, feel free to message her.👍
 
My sole experience of this nature, as best I can recall, was a European applicant who did a PhD as an International student and then applied.... having a PhD from a US school was acceptable at my school which usually requires a bachelor's degree from a US or Canadian school. On the other hand, that takes about as long or longer as an undergrad degree and might not be a feasible alternative for you, fasttortise.

However, your case is a bit different. First, it looks as if you are going to need to get up to speed in physics, biology, chemistry (including organic chemistry) in order to do well on the MCAT. That sequence usually takes 2 years along with some upper level courses that are usually required or highly recommended (biochemistry, genetics, statistics, calculus, psychology, English). It might be possible to shorten this and take the MCAT after your first 12 months of study and apply in the following cycle but that is going to be grinding.

Taking exams and earning credit for what you already know could give you a head start toward a bachelors from a US school. Here's a search engine that will help you find a school that wil accept scores toward a degree:
http://apps.collegeboard.org/cbsearch_clep/searchCLEPColleges.jsp

This is more information for veterans regarding the College-Level Examination Program:
See http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/clep/veterans.html

There are 2,000+ schools on the list so it is likely you'll find one near you. Then contact the school to find out more about how a returning or non-traditional student can earn a degree.

Could you consider relocating? To do what you want to do in a reasonable length of time is going to require excellent time management skills and reducing commuting time could be very important. Furthermore, your best chance of learning the material and earning good grades may preclude working at your current job. Keep in mind that average grade point averages for admission to US med schools are between 3.6 and 3.7 on a 4.0 scale where A is = 4 and B = 3.

Have you worked as a health care provider of some kind? If not, you are going to need to have work or volunteer experience with sick and/or injured patients in a clinical setting (hospital, ambulatory care or rehab setting) to convince admissions committees (adcoms) that you know what you are undertaking.

Finally, do get used to asking for help. In medicine, they call it a "consult" with the emphasis on the first syllable. Using one's specialized knowledge, skills and ability to help others can be enjoyable and it is why I tend to hang out here (I also find it informative and understanding the process from the applicant's point of view makes me a more empathetic member of the adcom).

If you mention my name in a post, I'll usually respond within 12 hours. Someone has a "bat signal" they use to call me (thus my location in the Bat Cave and the picture on my profile page) but just putting my name in a post (no space between the y and M) will usually draw me out.
 
This might be a long and expensive shot, but is there any way to transfer your Irish credit to a US school from which your university accepts credit, and then transfer the credit from that school to one near you?

On the other hand, it would be very very possible to apply after 2 years and graduate after 3. You'd have to choose whichever had a smaller unit requirement: the smallest liberal arts degree or a BA in Bio or Chem after subtracting the prereq units. Basically, find out what will enable you to take the fewest additional classes. (Often, a BA (not a BS) in Bio will only require 3 or so additional classes beyond the prereqs).

If you take classes year round (Fall, Sp, Summer), you can finish your prereqs in about 1.5 years:

F: gen chem 1, gen bio 1, english, math
Sp: gen chem 2, gen bio 2, english, math
Su: o chem 1

F: o chem 2, physics 1, major class, GE's
Sp: physics 2, major classes, GE's, MCAT
Su: major classes, GE's, apply to medical school

Glide year: finish your degree requirements, interview, etc.

Keep in mind that you could and should take advantage of the maximum transfer allowance at whatever school you go to. Take easy classes online (but not prereqs) from other schools and transfer them to your school if you find yourself needing more credit. If you haven't been admitted to a school yet, take some prereqs at a CC (part time if you need to continue working) until you enroll full-time; this will put you ahead of the timeline above.
 
I went to Ireland to study, completed my BSc degree, then worked for 6 years and served in the Marines for 18 years. So my BSc degree is 24 years old. ALL the medical schools I am interested in said no way, my degree is too old, my courses are too old but more importantly they need an AMERICAN undergraduate degree. Alarmingly, they said, if I do a MS degree (which will take me a year), that's not acceptable to them. They want an American UNDERGRADUATE degree. I don't know what to do. Can you suggest a quick way for me to get a BS degree? Thank you!

That is the problem I am encountering this application cycle. I won't have an UG degree but will have a graduate degree (PharmD) in a year. You might be able to get through this by completing 90 credit hours along with your prerequisites to get into medical school since technically you do have an UG degree.
 
Why wouldn't you serve 2 more years in the marines and get a pension?
 
My sole experience of this nature, as best I can recall, was a European applicant who did a PhD as an International student and then applied.... having a PhD from a US school was acceptable at my school which usually requires a bachelor's degree from a US or Canadian school. On the other hand, that takes about as long or longer as an undergrad degree and might not be a feasible alternative for you, fasttortise.

However, your case is a bit different. First, it looks as if you are going to need to get up to speed in physics, biology, chemistry (including organic chemistry) in order to do well on the MCAT. That sequence usually takes 2 years along with some upper level courses that are usually required or highly recommended (biochemistry, genetics, statistics, calculus, psychology, English). It might be possible to shorten this and take the MCAT after your first 12 months of study and apply in the following cycle but that is going to be grinding.

Taking exams and earning credit for what you already know could give you a head start toward a bachelors from a US school. Here's a search engine that will help you find a school that wil accept scores toward a degree:
http://apps.collegeboard.org/cbsearch_clep/searchCLEPColleges.jsp

This is more information for veterans regarding the College-Level Examination Program:
See http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/clep/veterans.html

There are 2,000+ schools on the list so it is likely you'll find one near you. Then contact the school to find out more about how a returning or non-traditional student can earn a degree.

Could you consider relocating? To do what you want to do in a reasonable length of time is going to require excellent time management skills and reducing commuting time could be very important. Furthermore, your best chance of learning the material and earning good grades may preclude working at your current job. Keep in mind that average grade point averages for admission to US med schools are between 3.6 and 3.7 on a 4.0 scale where A is = 4 and B = 3.

Have you worked as a health care provider of some kind? If not, you are going to need to have work or volunteer experience with sick and/or injured patients in a clinical setting (hospital, ambulatory care or rehab setting) to convince admissions committees (adcoms) that you know what you are undertaking.

Finally, do get used to asking for help. In medicine, they call it a "consult" with the emphasis on the first syllable. Using one's specialized knowledge, skills and ability to help others can be enjoyable and it is why I tend to hang out here (I also find it informative and understanding the process from the applicant's point of view makes me a more empathetic member of the adcom).

If you mention my name in a post, I'll usually respond within 12 hours. Someone has a "bat signal" they use to call me (thus my location in the Bat Cave and the picture on my profile page) but just putting my name in a post (no space between the y and M) will usually draw me out.

Thanks for your help LizzyM!!
Yes, I would not have any hesitation relocating for medical school. But for pre-med, it is a bit too much to uproot everything I have here and move.
Yes, I have the minimum shadowing experience.
And yes, adequate volunteer hours too.
 
Why wouldn't you serve 2 more years in the marines and get a pension?

That question is going to pop up in an interview and I hope the interviewer won't mind if I decline to ask it.

Or answer it in vague terms. I could just tell the interviewers that my superiors, myself, others involved and a Marine mediator came to an agreement it would be best if the seven of sought different careers with help of the marines.

The most specific I could get, without violating the terms of the agreement, would be tell the interviewers that superiors want to find someone at the junior level to blame if expensive equipment get damaged, so the seven of us took the blame.
 
Actually that is a very good idea! Any suggestions on what classes at what universities?

That is going to vary at different schools and different topics - but you don't want anything that you don't need to graduate. At my school we used the ratemyprofessor site, but not all schools reviewed on there. They rate the instructor a few different points - ease being one of them. The only time I didn't use this site was when during my first semester and I got the weirdest instructor that had us doing really really busy work (like coloring pages in class - in COLLEGE!!! etc, etc, etc).
 
That question is going to pop up in an interview and I hope the interviewer won't mind if I decline to ask it.

Or answer it in vague terms. I could just tell the interviewers that my superiors, myself, others involved and a Marine mediator came to an agreement it would be best if the seven of sought different careers with help of the marines.

The most specific I could get, without violating the terms of the agreement, would be tell the interviewers that superiors want to find someone at the junior level to blame if expensive equipment get damaged, so the seven of us took the blame.

Sorry to hear that. But that's all too often how the military works. Thanks for your service and good luck with medicine.
 
That question is going to pop up in an interview and I hope the interviewer won't mind if I decline to ask it.

Or answer it in vague terms. I could just tell the interviewers that my superiors, myself, others involved and a Marine mediator came to an agreement it would be best if the seven of sought different careers with help of the marines.

The most specific I could get, without violating the terms of the agreement, would be tell the interviewers that superiors want to find someone at the junior level to blame if expensive equipment get damaged, so the seven of us took the blame.

Did you get an honorable discharge? That specific question, yes or no answer, is on the AMCAS application, IIRC.
 
Did you get an honorable discharge? That specific question, yes or no answer, is on the AMCAS application, IIRC.

Unfortunately no. All of us got a dishonorable discharge.
 
That is actually a terrible idea. There is little respect for online courses.

If they aren't pre-med courses it's a great idea, especially since most transcripts do not note that a class is online. They have the same course code as the classroom based ones. It is not recommended to take any pre-med courses online or hybrid because many schools frown upon that and some ask for if you took them online or ask the school for the syllabi for the pre rec courses so they can tell one way or another (I never knew this until my bio prof told me about sending them for former students). No one cares if your intro to applied baking class was online or in a classroom, especially if you're nontrad. Obviously upper division science courses should also be taken in a classroom.

The bigger problem is starting so late with the following issues: no US bachelors/classes completed toward one, dishonorable discharge, and thus far not sure of OPs ties to medicine (minimum shadowing). There's a good chance the OP could jump through several hoops just to find something like the discharge might keep him from getting in anyway, especially if it can't be explained.
 
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maybe you can get accepted to your state school and get your credits transferred here then you wouldnt have to do as much for a undergraduate degree.
 
Before you go to all the trouble of earning a degree in order to apply to medical school, you might make some phone calls to medical admissions officers (dean of admissions or director of admissions) and find out if the school will consider applicants with a dishonorable discharge. It would be for naught if you got all the way through a bachelors only to discover that you can't get into med school because of your record.
 
Yeah definitely make some calls to see if schools will seriously consider someone with a dishonorable discharge. Unfortunately, many might see that as a huge red flag. Make some calls to make sure this whole idea is feasible.

My first thought is any med school or residency that rotates at a VA hospital. I know the VA HR paperwork asks about dishonorable discharge...I wonder if you could ever get clearance to rotate at a VA.

Also, maybe call some state licensing boards where you would ultimately want to practice - I'm wondering how they would view it.
 
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Before you go to all the trouble of earning a degree in order to apply to medical school, you might make some phone calls to medical admissions officers (dean of admissions or director of admissions) and find out if the school will consider applicants with a dishonorable discharge. It would be for naught if you got all the way through a bachelors only to discover that you can't get into med school because of your record.

Thank you LizzyM. I already called and e-mailed a few lower-tier schools as well as mid-tier schools. Plus two top-tier schools. All said a dishonorable discharge will very seriously hurt me in admissions. One Dean of a lower-tier med school wrote back he will be frank - they get so many perfect applicants that schools don't bother with someone with a dishonorable discharge, a minor criminal offense, etc. Even more disappointing was that the DO schools told me similar things.
 
I recalled a similiar case at my school many years ago. Dishonorable discharges are viewed equivalent to a felony conviction - and are weeded out upon review.
 
how does this look?

caribbean_view.jpg



something to consider in your situation...

Best of luck and thanks for your service
 
I went to Ireland to study, completed my BSc degree, then worked for 6 years and served in the Marines for 18 years. So my BSc degree is 24 years old. ALL the medical schools I am interested in said no way, my degree is too old, my courses are too old but more importantly they need an AMERICAN undergraduate degree. Alarmingly, they said, if I do a MS degree (which will take me a year), that's not acceptable to them. They want an American UNDERGRADUATE degree. I don't know what to do. Can you suggest a quick way for me to get a BS degree? Thank you!

Also consider asking colleges if you can get life experience credit and see if they will give you transfer credits for the courses you already completed. Thank you for your service!! :luck::luck:
 
how does this look?

caribbean_view.jpg



something to consider in your situation...

Best of luck and thanks for your service

Yes the Caribbean seems to be my only option now. I am looking into it.
Thanks for all suggestions.
 
Yes the Caribbean seems to be my only option now. I am looking into it.
Thanks for all suggestions.

Before you go to the Caribean you need to check that you will actually be able to get a residency and get licensed. Email some residency programs and call the state licensing board where you want to practice. You're going to have to report the dishonorable discharge to all of them.

How terrible would it be to go through 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of med school in the Caribbean plus several hundred thousands of dollars of debt, only to find out no one will give you a residency position.
 
I went to Ireland to study, completed my BSc degree, then worked for 6 years and served in the Marines for 18 years. So my BSc degree is 24 years old. ALL the medical schools I am interested in said no way, my degree is too old, my courses are too old but more importantly they need an AMERICAN undergraduate degree. Alarmingly, they said, if I do a MS degree (which will take me a year), that's not acceptable to them. They want an American UNDERGRADUATE degree. I don't know what to do. Can you suggest a quick way for me to get a BS degree? Thank you!

Its called a post-bac program, post-baccalaureate. 2 years of premed requirements. If you had a 20 year old american degree they'd want you to do a post bac too. I hardly remember things from last YEAR
 
Its called a post-bac program, post-baccalaureate. 2 years of premed requirements. If you had a 20 year old american degree they'd want you to do a post bac too. I hardly remember things from last YEAR

But many schools highly desire a bachelor's degree from a US or Canadian school in addition to the post-bac. At the very least, they want to see 90 credits from US or Canadian schools. Somewhat a moot point, anyway, in that further conversation with the OP reveals that he has the military equivalent of a felony on his record and his chances of being admitted to a US school are approaching zero.
 
But many schools highly desire a bachelor's degree from a US or Canadian school in addition to the post-bac. At the very least, they want to see 90 credits from US or Canadian schools. Somewhat a moot point, anyway, in that further conversation with the OP reveals that he has the military equivalent of a felony on his record and his chances of being admitted to a US school are approaching zero.

I'm honestly unsure of the answer, though I suspect I know. Would OP have any better luck with the NP/PA route, since MD/DO are all but impossible with the Dishonorable on his DD214?
 
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