Medical Student Suicide

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Backpack5

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Hi,

Does anyone know any studies or data on the number of medical student suicides per year? I was talking to a medical student about burnout and suicide and I could not find any data sources that had this number or at least a ballpark estimate.
 
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Do a Search for the term "PamelaWibleMD" here on SDN. She posted on the topic extensively in the recent past. One of her threads appears under Similar Threads at the bottom of this screen. She presented at the national AAFP conference last fall on the issue.
 
One of our Deans told us that about 100-150 medical student commit suicide every year. That's almost 1/medical school!

Luckily, we've never lost a student this way.


Backpack5 said:
Hi,

Does anyone know any studies or data on the number of medical student suicides per year? I was talking to a medical student about burnout and suicide and I could not find any data sources that had this number or at least a ballpark estimate.
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A quick google search revealed this article: http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=742530

In its intro section, they cite these articles for medical student suicide:

3. Schernhammer E. Taking their own lives—the high rate of physician suicide. N Engl J Med. 2005;352:2473-6. [PMID: 15958803]
4. Hays LR, Cheever T, Patel P. Medical student suicide, 1989-1994. Am J Psychiatry. 1996;153:553-5. [PMID: 8599405]
5. Pepitone-Arreola-Rockwell F, Rockwell D, Core N. Fifty-two medical student suicides. Am J Psychiatry. 1981;138:198-201. [PMID: 7457640]

It's just a start, but hope it helps.
 
Dang! The medical students who end up suiciding does it relate to their studies (stress, sad cases, etc) or did they went into medical school with issues?
 
Sust said:
A quick google search revealed this article: http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=742530

In its intro section, they cite these articles for medical student suicide:

3. Schernhammer E. Taking their own lives—the high rate of physician suicide. N Engl J Med. 2005;352:2473-6. [PMID: 15958803]
4. Hays LR, Cheever T, Patel P. Medical student suicide, 1989-1994. Am J Psychiatry. 1996;153:553-5. [PMID: 8599405]
5. Pepitone-Arreola-Rockwell F, Rockwell D, Core N. Fifty-two medical student suicides. Am J Psychiatry. 1981;138:198-201. [PMID: 7457640]

It's just a start, but hope it helps.
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The only problem is I feel that there's a lot of cover up with med student suicide. With source 4 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8599405), it says that there were only 15 med student suicides in 5 years, which seems far too low and they got the information by asking the dean of student affairs. The reason why I asked is because when I talked with this med student, he says that when he was deciding between med schools, he declined an offer from a med school because during second look, a med student told the prospective students about the alarming number of suicides on campus. However, there is absolutely no information on google about any suicides happening at this medical school in any time frame, which is really odd. You would think that there would at least be an obituary or editorial published about a suicide that included the school name and the word suicide.
 
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Backpack5 said:
However, there is absolutely no information on google about any suicides happening at this medical school in any time frame, which is really odd. You would think that there would at least be an obituary or editorial published about a suicide that included the school name and the word suicide.
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Obituaries never talk about suicide. Usually, the only clue you'll have as to whether or not the death was a suicide is if the family requests donations to a crisis line or mental health organization of some kind. A lot of the time, the family will not indicate cause of death.

We just lost a coworker to a sudden death. He was 27 and "died in his sleep"... The family didn't give out any other information--in the obit or at the service.
 
We had a student in the year above me commit suicide a couple of years ago (during MS3). I don't know the particulars of the story, but I would imagine there are underlying issues that become more prominent with the stress of medical training. I doubt that "stress" or "sad cases" are enough to cause someone to commit suicide in the absence of underlying issues (e.g., previous depression, concurrent stressors, etc.).
 
Goro said:
One of our Deans told us that about 100-150 medical student commit suicide every year. That's almost 1/medical school!

Luckily, we've never lost a student this way.
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That seems very high. Far too high.
My school had one student commit suicide 2 years before I started and none during the 4 years I was there. They actually added a lecture on work life balance and another on recognizing depression and suicide awareness to the 1st year curriculum as a result.
 
NickNaylor said:
We had a student in the year above me commit suicide a couple of years ago (during MS3). I don't know the particulars of the story, but I would imagine there are underlying issues that become more prominent with the stress of medical training. I doubt that "stress" or "sad cases" are enough to cause someone to commit suicide in the absence of underlying issues (e.g., previous depression, concurrent stressors, etc.).
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I wouldn't question that "stress" alone can push someone that far but given how ubiquitous the problem of altered mental health, depression, suicidal tendencies seem to be among physicians and medical students there has to be a systemic aspect. I'm not saying that there aren't underlying issues, because there most certainly are, but I also don't think it's very helpful to paint a picture where only the "sick get sicker" and everyone else is somehow immune. Ideally, I think we should treat each other as if we were all at risk and stay aware of warning signs or red flags among our friends - especially over-compensating signs of stoicism.

If you google the statistics, the American a Foundation for Suicide Prevention lists ~150 med student suicides per year and about 300-400 physician suicides.

A lot of these primary sources are behind pay walls or something but you can go down the rabbit hole from this article as it includes some citations:


http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/05/opinion/why-do-doctors-commit-suicide.html?referrer=
 
definitely have to do your part to make sure you do like @Lucca says... keep an eye out for your classmates, guys. this not only includes emotional health, but if there are any alcohol/drug abuse as well which does happen.
 
Lucca said:
I wouldn't question that "stress" alone can push someone that far but given how ubiquitous the problem of altered mental health, depression, suicidal tendencies seem to be among physicians and medical students there has to be a systemic aspect. I'm not saying that there aren't underlying issues, because there most certainly are, but I also don't think it's very helpful to paint a picture where only the "sick get sicker" and everyone else is somehow immune. Ideally, I think we should treat each other as if we were all at risk and stay aware of warning signs or red flags among our friends - especially over-compensating signs of stoicism.

If you google the statistics, the American a Foundation for Suicide Prevention lists ~150 med student suicides per year and about 300-400 physician suicides.

A lot of these primary sources are behind pay walls or something but you can go down the rabbit hole from this article as it includes some citations:


http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/05/opinion/why-do-doctors-commit-suicide.html?referrer=
Click to expand...

You can treat it however you want, but the point is that normal, well-adjusted individuals with adequate coping mechanisms don't commit suicide. I'm not implying that "only the sick get sicker." I am implying that normal people don't commit suicide over the stress of medical training.
 
To OP, something I found.

NickNaylor said:
You can treat it however you want, but the point is that normal, well-adjusted individuals with adequate coping mechanisms don't commit suicide. I'm not implying that "only the sick get sicker." I am implying that normal people don't commit suicide over the stress of medical training.
Click to expand...

Makes sense that some medcial students woulf become an hero.

Part of the reason I transferred out of NYU was this. I couldn't take BOBST library. Too many people killed themselves there. When I went there to study, it felt like a prison. There were all these high plastic barriers along the stairways, windows were locked and/or barred, and there were security guards continuously walking the stairways. It got to my head... a real Foucault prison, since everything looks towards the center.

People kill themselves over anything.
 
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Yeah, tbh, the fact that a person was attending Medical School at the time of Suicide is sort of irrelevant.

I think it's underlying issues that cause depression within these students, and attending or not attending medical school wouldn't have done much to chance their outcomes.

Basically, I don't think the stress of school is the major cause of suicide, it's usually a history of depression.
 
pyrrion89 said:
It would be interesting to compare the prevalence of suicide among med students to that among other professional schools and the general population at a similar age group.
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Physicians do have the highest rate of suicide out of all the professions with a suicide rate double of the general population and female physicians have a suicide rate of four times greater than the general population (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/410643_2). It's hard to see if it extends into medical school because I don't think medical schools are willing to release data on suicide rates if their school has a problem.

I did find this paper on Univ of Michigan med students where about 34% of males have at least mild depression and 50% of females have at least mild depression (Table 2)(http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=186586).
 
Goro said:
One of our Deans told us that about 100-150 medical student commit suicide every year. That's almost 1/medical school!

Luckily, we've never lost a student this way.
Click to expand...

I find this very difficult to believe
 
NickNaylor said:
You can treat it however you want, but the point is that normal, well-adjusted individuals with adequate coping mechanisms don't commit suicide. I'm not implying that "only the sick get sicker." I am implying that normal people don't commit suicide over the stress of medical training.
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Your use of the word normal in your last sentence is fairly insensitive to those with mental illness. Imagine we were talking about rape victims having an increased risk of suicide, for instance, and you used the exact same line.
 
FletchHaris said:
Yeah, tbh, the fact that a person was attending Medical School at the time of Suicide is sort of irrelevant.

I think it's underlying issues that cause depression within these students, and attending or not attending medical school wouldn't have done much to chance their outcomes.

Basically, I don't think the stress of school is the major cause of suicide, it's usually a history of depression.
Click to expand...
Many people don't realize that they are prone to depression and suicidal ideation until they are put into a situation that exceeds their coping skills. For many, medical school and residency will be the first such experience they encounter in their lives. There is nothing beforehand that can compare or prepare you for what you are getting into, hence the great number of residents that seemingly kill themselves out of nowhere, with no outward signs or symptoms, and with no known psychiatric history. They were fine until that last straw, and then they weren't.
 
Mad Jack said:
Your use of the word normal in your last sentence is fairly insensitive to those with mental illness. Imagine we were talking about rape victims having an increased risk of suicide, for instance, and you used the exact same line.
Click to expand...

You do realize that NickNaylor is a 4th year going into psych, correct? Get that lame pseudo-politically correct garbage out of here
 
Psai said:
You do realize that NickNaylor is a 4th year going into psych, correct? Get that lame pseudo-politically correct garbage out of here
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It's not about being politically correct, it's a very serious concern. As someone who's struggled with depression all my life, I was actually personally offended. As someone who is going into psych, not making your already mentally ill patients feel worse about themselves by making them feel like they're some kind of defective person is kind of critically important.

If I weren't already on thin ice with the mods I'd outright tell you to go... something... yourself.
 
I agree with Mad Jack. I have a lot of respect for NickNaylor but I was also a bit perturbed by the way he incorporated "normal" into this post. A significant percentage of people suffer from mental illness (which could stem from environmental factors such as domestic violence, rape, etc) and stigmatizing them is counterproductive.

But then again, this is the internet, and perhaps I took his words out of context.
 
Mad Jack said:
Your use of the word normal in your last sentence is fairly insensitive to those with mental illness. Imagine we were talking about rape victims having an increased risk of suicide, for instance, and you used the exact same line.
Click to expand...

Is someone with HTN physiologically normal? Is someone with a stroke normal? Is someone with a cognitive deficit normal? Is someone with a missing extremity normal? Why is it any different if you have a mental rather than physical illness? Is the person who is raped and at increased risk for suicide normal?

I don't think of people with mental illness as some kind of lesser being or something like that. I also don't think that anyone with any kind of illness is incapable of living an otherwise normal, productive, and fulfilling life. It's not a value judgment - simply a description. But to think of people with MDD, BPD, GAD, or any one of the host of mental illnesses as normal (as opposed to ill) is a bit absurd. If they were normal, then why would the diseases even exist in the first place? Why would treating them be of utmost importance in many situations?

I'm not really sure why you're offended. And by the way, I'm someone that has been diagnosed with clinically significant anxiety that has required treatment. I'm not normal in that regard. I'm otherwise able to live a happy life. The two are not exclusive.
 
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NickNaylor said:
Is someone with HTN physiologically normal? Is someone with a stroke normal? Is someone with a cognitive deficit normal? Is someone with a missing extremity normal? Why is it any different if you have a mental rather than physical illness? Is the person who is raped and at increased risk for suicide normal?

I don't think of people with mental illness as some kind of lesser being or something like that. I also don't think that anyone with any kind of illness is incapable of living an otherwise normal, productive, and fulfilling life. It's not a value judgment - simply a description. But to think of people with MDD, BPD, GAD, or any one of the host of mental illnesses as normal (as opposed to ill) is a bit absurd. If they were normal, then why would the diseases even exist in the first place? Why would treating them be of utmost importance in many situations?

I'm not really sure why you're offended. And by the way, I'm someone that has been diagnosed with clinically significant anxiety that has required treatment. I'm not normal in that regard. I'm otherwise able to live a happy life. The two are not exclusive.
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I'm not saying you're objectively wrong or anything. Just letting you know that a lot of your patients might be far more sensitive than yourself, and that certain comments might be viewed in a negative light by someone with depressive tendencies, low self esteem, or an ongoing mental health crisis. If you're already considering suicide, and you see, "well, normal people don't kill themselves," it makes you think, "well, I guess that puts me that much farther from a 'normal' person. I can't even live right. What's the point if I'm not normal anyways, and because of my history (since it's a history of mental illness we're talking about here, not ongoing mental illness) I never can be again." It's the hopelessness of the idea that gets me, that if you've got a history, you're never going to be normal, and that's just kind of mentally isolating. This is just my opinion though, and I'm conveying my feelings. Words are critical when dealing with the mentally ill, as they are often far more sensitive to criticism and perceived slights (depending on their particular ailment) than the general population.
 
Mad Jack said:
I'm not saying you're objectively wrong or anything. Just letting you know that a lot of your patients might be far more sensitive than yourself, and that certain comments might be viewed in a negative light by someone with depressive tendencies, low self esteem, or an ongoing mental health crisis. If you're already considering suicide, and you see, "well, normal people don't kill themselves," it makes you think, "well, I guess that puts me that much farther from a 'normal' person. I can't even live right. What's the point if I'm not normal anyways, and because of my history (since it's a history of mental illness we're talking about here, not ongoing mental illness) I never can be again." It's the hopelessness of the idea that gets me, that if you've got a history, you're never going to be normal, and that's just kind of mentally isolating. This is just my opinion though, and I'm conveying my feelings. Words are critical when dealing with the mentally ill, as they are often far more sensitive to criticism and perceived slights (depending on their particular ailment) than the general population.
Click to expand...

I'm obviously not going to go up to one of my patients and say, "you're not normal." I thought that wouldn't require explanation, but perhaps it does. I appreciate the advice.

Regardless, I can't control how people interpret statements made in good faith and without any degree of animosity. People are going to read into things what they want to read into them. That's a result of their own projection and not my intent or even what was said.
 
Mad Jack said:
I'm not saying you're objectively wrong or anything. Just letting you know that a lot of your patients might be far more sensitive than yourself, and that certain comments might be viewed in a negative light by someone with depressive tendencies, low self esteem, or an ongoing mental health crisis. If you're already considering suicide, and you see, "well, normal people don't kill themselves," it makes you think, "well, I guess that puts me that much farther from a 'normal' person. I can't even live right. What's the point if I'm not normal anyways, and because of my history (since it's a history of mental illness we're talking about here, not ongoing mental illness) I never can be again." It's the hopelessness of the idea that gets me, that if you've got a history, you're never going to be normal, and that's just kind of mentally isolating. This is just my opinion though, and I'm conveying my feelings. Words are critical when dealing with the mentally ill, as they are often far more sensitive to criticism and perceived slights (depending on their particular ailment) than the general population.
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Yep, words do play a crucial role in these encounters. Much of the anxiety I've suffered from stemmed from living in a hostile environment. And unfortunately, I've had physicians who totally ignored this salient factor when providing me with a "prognosis." In one instance, I lashed out at one by saying, "wouldn't you feel anxious if you were constantly threatened?" I guess that's why I was thrown off by Nick's previous post.
 
NickNaylor said:
I'm obviously not going to go up to one of my patients and say, "you're not normal." I thought that wouldn't require explanation, but perhaps it does.

Regardless, I can't control how people interpret statements made in good faith and without any degree of animosity. People are going to read into things what they want to read into them. That's a result of their own projection and not my intent or even what was said.
Click to expand...
Like I said, I'm not offended at you personally. The statement was just unpleasant to me, and I recognize that you meant nothing by it. I was just providing you a perspective from someone that suffered from horrible depression for over 20 years, and the sort of person that is fairly high risk in regard to the topic at hand- comments that seem innocuous to you may be fuel for the fire of one of your patients. There's a couple other bits, but I'll send those to you via PM.

And, just so it's on the record, I'm fine now, 3 years depression-free, aside from a couple month stretch of my first semester of med school that left me pretty emotionally devastated.
 
Mad Jack said:
Like I said, I'm not offended at you personally. The statement was just unpleasant to me, and I recognize that you meant nothing by it. I was just providing you a perspective from someone that suffered from horrible depression for over 20 years, and the sort of person that is fairly high risk in regard to the topic at hand- comments that seem innocuous to you may be fuel for the fire of one of your patients. There's a couple other bits, but I'll send those to you via PM.

And, just so it's on the record, I'm fine now, 3 years depression-free, aside from a couple month stretch of my first semester of med school that left me pretty emotionally devastated.
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Sorry to hear you had a rough stretch recently. I'm glad things are better now!
 
10408500_933410976669453_15695119465727530_n.jpg
Goro said:
I'm not making the news, just reporting it.
Click to expand...
 
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Psai said:
No one cares about you being offended. Plenty of people struggle with depression. It's definitely not normal which is why doctors treat it. Mental illness is stigmatized. That's just how it is
Click to expand...

Just because that's the way something is, doesn't mean we should necessarily continue doing it. Mental illness certainly is stigmatized, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make an effort to de-stigmatize it.
 
Backpack5 said:
Hi,

Does anyone know any studies or data on the number of medical student suicides per year? I was talking to a medical student about burnout and suicide and I could not find any data sources that had this number or at least a ballpark estimate.
Click to expand...
Why are you seeking and thinking about that? Are you planning on committing suicide? 😵Loser!
 
GoPens said:
Just because that's the way something is, doesn't mean we should necessarily continue doing it. Mental illness certainly is stigmatized, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make an effort to de-stigmatize it.
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We're not the ones stigmatizing it. But mental illness is not normal, end of story
 
And what about physicians who stigmatize mental illness? Should we work to change that?
(Not saying that anyone here is guilty of that though).
 
Cyberdyne 101 said:
And what about physicians who stigmatize mental illness? Should we work to change that?
(Not saying that anyone here is guilty of that though).
Click to expand...

Sure, go for it. But oftentimes changing things like that is like trying to change someone's politics. That doesn't prevent people from trying, but there's a high likelihood that it'll be a fruitless task. Changing someone's values and judgments isn't something you can do in the classroom.
 
NickNaylor said:
Sure, go for it. But oftentimes changing things like that is like trying to change someone's politics. That doesn't prevent people from trying, but there's a high likelihood that it'll be a fruitless task. Changing someone's values and judgments isn't something you can do in the classroom.
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I'm totally aware that it's an uphill battle.
I actually refrain from discussing certain mental health issues I've had with physicians because I'm sick of the bullsh*t.
 
There's just a lot of baggage with the word normal and I had the same feeling that MJ did. I don't think that was intentional or anything and I have a lot of respect for @NickNaylor

I mean I haven't exactly hidden my struggles with mental illness and a big issue of that is labeling myself as "abnormal" or "damaged" or "****ed up" so yeah it just didn't sit quite right with me. But of course this is the internets and I of course could be misinterpreting your tone.
 
touchpause13 said:
There's just a lot of baggage with the word normal and I had the same feeling that MJ did. I don't think that was intentional or anything and I have a lot of respect for @NickNaylor

I mean I haven't exactly hidden my struggles with mental illness and a big issue of that is labeling myself as "abnormal" or "damaged" or "****ed up" so yeah it just didn't sit quite right with me. But of course this is the internets and I of course could be misinterpreting your tone.
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I actually don't mind saying that certain experiences have ****ed me up. Any human (with or without a history of mental illness) wouldn't respond well to the **** I've dealt with. And all things considered, I'm actually pleased with my progress. If anything, I've exceeded expectations. I just don't like when people (particularly physicians) doom those with a history of mental illness, regardless of the etiology.
 
Cyberdyne 101 said:
I actually don't mind saying that certain experiences have ****ed me up. Any human (with or without a history of mental illness) wouldn't respond well to the **** I've dealt with. And all things considered, I'm actually pleased with my progress. If anything, I've exceeded expectations. I just don't like when people (particularly physicians) doom those with a history of mental illness, regardless of the etiology.
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You're not doomed in any sense. But to say that people with a history of depression aren't at increased risk for, say, suicide is simply ignoring factual data. "Risk" is not equivalent to "fate."
 
Some of you are funny. Everyone experiencing suicidal ideation knows it's not normal. I can't imagine you need to tiptoe around that. But if you do, then do you have a synonym to use? Because ultimately anyone diagnosing anything has to separate normal vs. not normal.
 
NickNaylor said:
You're not doomed in any sense. But to say that people with a history of depression aren't at increased risk for, say, suicide is simply ignoring factual data. "Risk" is not equivalent to "fate."
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Oh I totally agree. It's just wrong to convey that certain symptoms will never go away just because...
 
freemontie said:
Some of you are funny. Everyone experiencing suicidal ideation knows it's not normal. I can't imagine you need to tiptoe around that. But if you do, then do you have a synonym to use? Because ultimately anyone diagnosing anything has to separate normal vs. not normal.
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:shrug: Having abnormal thoughts doesn't make you not a normal person. I would avoid using the word normal myself, and simply say "people who have a history of mental illness are at a higher risk of suicide than those who have no history of mental health issues." It says the exact same thing, but without that feeling of judgement, brokenness, or exclusion.
 
Cyberdyne 101 said:
I actually don't mind saying that certain experiences have ****ed me up. Any human (with or without a history of mental illness) wouldn't respond well to the **** I've dealt with. And all things considered, I'm actually pleased with my progress. If anything, I've exceeded expectations. I just don't like when people (particularly physicians) doom those with a history of mental illness, regardless of the etiology.
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Yeah.. it's just that at least in my case, telling myself on the daily that I'm damaged goods and a **** up isn't exactly the most healthy line of thought. I mean it's one thing to realize that you've had experiences that have had an effect on your life, it's another to make all the horrible ish you've gone through the center of your identity.
 
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