Medics + Pig Slaughter?

[tncekm]

Okay, so, today I hear from a friend of mine who is dating a guy who is a military medic (or in training or something). So, today he tells her that as part of their training today they "chopped its leg off with a machete and tried to repair it afterward" (or stop the bleeding is what I'm assuming).

I'm not an animal activist hippie, and I do work in a lab where animal testing is used, but I've never heard of something like this. So, I was just curious if this is real practice or if this guy is just full of bologna? (She tends to find 'em that way.)

It would make sense to use them, but the way he put up the scenario it just sounded brutal (I won't get into what he said, because it could have just been an exaggeration.).

Thanks guys.

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[Ankylosed]

Okay, so, today I hear from a friend of mine who is dating a guy who is a military medic (or in training or something). So, today he tells her that as part of their training today they "chopped its leg off with a machete and tried to repair it afterward" (or stop the bleeding is what I'm assuming).

I'm not an animal activist hippie, and I do work in a lab where animal testing is used, but I've never heard of something like this. So, I was just curious if this is real practice or if this guy is just full of bologna? (She tends to find 'em that way.)

It would make sense to use them, but the way he put up the scenario it just sounded brutal (I won't get into what he said, because it could have just been an exaggeration.).

Thanks guys.

Pig? Are you sure it wasn't a goat?

 

[Croooz]

I believe either pig or goat. Goat for the obvious "goat lab". In research there are pigs and there are many used for training.

While he might not be lying I don't believe he's telling the truth.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

As part of an emergency medicine rotation we did a pig lab at Wright Patt. We put in chest tubes to a fully anesthetized pig, did venous cut-downs, a DPL, and then stabbed it in the heart and tried to repair it before it died. The pig didn't make it thanks to our poor surgical skills. At any rate, chopping off a leg doesn't sound all that different. I suspect the story is true.

 

[Mirror Form]

I also did a pig lab as part of a emergency medicine rotation. We didn't actually amputate any limbs, but we did do a thoracotomy and manually compressed the heart.

 

[usnavdoc]

Okay, so, today I hear from a friend of mine who is dating a guy who is a military medic (or in training or something). So, today he tells her that as part of their training today they "chopped its leg off with a machete and tried to repair it afterward" (or stop the bleeding is what I'm assuming).

I'm not an animal activist hippie, and I do work in a lab where animal testing is used, but I've never heard of something like this. So, I was just curious if this is real practice or if this guy is just full of bologna? (She tends to find 'em that way.)

It would make sense to use them, but the way he put up the scenario it just sounded brutal (I won't get into what he said, because it could have just been an exaggeration.).

Thanks guys.

Actually he is probably referring to the TCCC course. (Tactical Combat Casualty Care) presented by Capt Frank Buttler USN and LTC(USA ret)John Hagemann. The course was previously taught to special operations medical personnel(doctors and corpsman/medics) as a refresher to 18 Delta. Now since more units have been involved with OIF and OEF there is funding for regular units to send medical personnel through his training. And there is a pig lab that uses elements that simulate battlefield injuries.

I went through a few years back as a spearhead effort on behalf of the 22MEU and 2ND Marine Division. Shortly after I finished the reccomendation was made to send all Corpsman assigned to deploying units through the course.

As far as a machete injury. Never saw that but it wouldnt surprise me. It was a 2 week tactical paramedic refresher course culminating in the field ex. The "lab" starts out like a typical animal lab with induction of anesthesia then instructors come along and "simulate" injuries. On our pig the first injury was for them to slice through the femoral vessels. Then chest stab wound. Then after that is stabilized they yank out the airway and you crich the animal. Then they take the animals still alive and anesthesized and do further simulations with GSWs and explosive injuries.

There is a vet there at all times but I wouldnt begin to lie to you and say that it is a humane experience. Although nothing about combat is humane.

I made the reccomendation that corpsman/medics should attend but it was not worth the time/money for physicians. Except that you would know what your corpsman/medics are taught so that you can reinstill knowledge later. A better time spent for physicians would be to rotate on a busy trauma service for a month. Like the program they have at LACC.

 

[tncekm]

Thanks for the response guys...very interesting.

 

[Homunculus]

if wilbur had a choice, i think going under general anesthesia and being unconscious then subsequently hacked up for training medical folks would be a better end than at the local Oscar Meyer weiner factory . . . 😀

i imagine your friend's medic friend hyped it up a bit-- in my limited experience with medics they tend to exaggerate. i doubt they just whistled and waited for some innocent curious pig to come up so they could grab it and hack of a limb.

--your friendly neighborhood pigs-in-a-blanket loving caveman

 

[former military]

Lots of research using animals serves no good purpose. The military actually does some good in this respect. Take the fibrin bandage, a bandage a corpsman can carry with fibrin impregnated in it... would that stop a war injury from bleeding than the standard cloth or gauze? Lets find out


two goats 50 yrds away, with pre test CBCs, and an a-line in place. Someone shoots each goat in the ass... wait two minutes... then an eager medic charges up and slaps a dressing or fibrin dressing on... measure mortality, hematocrits, blood pressure tracings, etc.

Then give the goat... minus the head and shot off hip to the Afghanis who play horse soccer with it...

actual research where the animals life actually has a chance to enhance medicine....

doesn't look too good to the layperson at home but worth it none the less

 

[backrow]

I think we should trade some of the pigs for some al-queda types 😀

 

[46&2]

At Wilford Hall, we did a pig lab where we did a splenectomy, cholecystecomy, and chest tube insertion among other things (pig wasn't going to make it) for med student instruction. Residents on peds also practiced intubation on ferrets. The research wing also used pig and rats to test the new hemoglobin-based oxygen carrier, some pretty worthy research.

Also knew a surgery intern who said they blew up goats at USUHS (simulating IED injuries) and then tried to resuscitate them. This was until PETA found out about it.

 

[pgg]

Actually he is probably referring to the TCCC course.

...

I went through a few years back as a spearhead effort on behalf of the 22MEU and 2ND Marine Division. Shortly after I finished the reccomendation was made to send all Corpsman assigned to deploying units through the course.

Is this the same as OEMS (operational emergency medicine skills)?

Right before my USMC unit deployed in late 2005, we sent a bunch of our Corpsmen to that course at Lejeune. There was an animal lab much like the one you described, and the syllabus was essentially the TCCC guidelines. (Which, for God only knows what reasons, apparently isn't being taught to them at Corps School.) All of the Corpsmen spoke very highly of the class, and a few GMOs attended too, but I never made it.

One of my Corpsmen later had to do a surgical airway in the field for a casualty (who ultimately didn't survive, but a cric was indicated, and he did it quickly and correctly). He credited the OEMS goat (pig?) with helping him get it right.

PETA and their psychotic brethren would freak if they knew the half of it, but I think that's an excellent use of an anesthetized goat.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I was going to say we have terrorists and other people filling jails. I think there would be plenty of child molestors, rapists, wife beaters and a lot of other low life scum that I would lose a lot less sleep over "practicing" upon than over a goat or pig.

 

[deleted6669]

until recently atls(advanced trauma life support) was taught with a pig procedures lab. this was the central feature of the 1st few atls courses I took. when I recerted last yr we used a mr hurt simulation mannequin. more humane yes, better training no

 

[MedicalCorpse]

I was going to say we have terrorists and other people filling jails. I think there would be plenty of child molestors, rapists, wife beaters and a lot of other low life scum that I would lose a lot less sleep over "practicing" upon than over a goat or pig.

When I did ATLS ca. 1988, we used dogs. Mine was a Doberman. My grandfather Jones raised Dobermans...Otie was my favorite...When I wrote a long diatribe (in my book, yet to be published) re: my discomfort in vivisecting a Dob, Simon Auster gave me a dreaded "See Me". I garnered at least 3 "See Me's" in my time at USU. Too bad the thoracic aortic aneurysm...

--
R
http://www.medicalcorpse.com

 

[usnavdoc]

Is this the same as OEMS (operational emergency medicine skills)?

Right before my USMC unit deployed in late 2005, we sent a bunch of our Corpsmen to that course at Lejeune. There was an animal lab much like the one you described, and the syllabus was essentially the TCCC guidelines. (Which, for God only knows what reasons, apparently isn't being taught to them at Corps School.) All of the Corpsmen spoke very highly of the class, and a few GMOs attended too, but I never made it.

One of my Corpsmen later had to do a surgical airway in the field for a casualty (who ultimately didn't survive, but a cric was indicated, and he did it quickly and correctly). He credited the OEMS goat (pig?) with helping him get it right.

PETA and their psychotic brethren would freak if they knew the half of it, but I think that's an excellent use of an anesthetized goat.

Same course. When I went It was at Quantico and called TCCC. There was some kind of political fallout with Buttler and Hagemann(or so the rumor goes). Anyway now Hagemanns course is OEMS. Which is what they were eventually teaching at Lejeune when we were there.

And I agree it is a great course for corpsmen/medics.

 

[PharmD2MD]

Ha ha...I got my first see me from Dr. Auster- he's still here.

When I did ATLS ca. 1988, we used dogs. Mine was a Doberman. My grandfather Jones raised Dobermans...Otie was my favorite...When I wrote a long diatribe (in my book, yet to be published) re: my discomfort in vivisecting a Dob, Simon Auster gave me a dreaded "See Me". I garnered at least 3 "See Me's" in my time at USU. Too bad the thoracic aortic aneurysm...

--
R
http://www.medicalcorpse.com

 

[paradude]

When I did ATLS ca. 1988, we used dogs. Mine was a Doberman. My grandfather Jones raised Dobermans...Otie was my favorite...When I wrote a long diatribe (in my book, yet to be published) re: my discomfort in vivisecting a Dob, Simon Auster gave me a dreaded "See Me". I garnered at least 3 "See Me's" in my time at USU. Too bad the thoracic aortic aneurysm...

--
R
http://www.medicalcorpse.com

Was the "Human Context" course as much a waste of time in 1988 as it is now?

 

[Medic91W]

This does happen. When I went through the Army combat medic course, TCCC was a new addition and didn't include the goat portion.

Today, goats are shot and medics work on them. One of my buddies that is deployed with me went through this training. Many new things have been added to the curriculum, including intubation and EJ IVs.

 

[GMO_52]

Ha ha...I got my first see me from Dr. Auster- he's still here.

Not to totally hijack a thread but I got a see-me from Caring and Sharing with Simon. I have a bit of a background in animal behavior and altruism is something that is a frequent topic of study (ants, wasps, etc) and I argued that there was no way you could truly say that physicians were altruists. Basically just quoted the arguments in The Selfish Gene. Boy was that a mistake. After that, I made sure no paper I wrote actually said anything.

 

[pgg]

Not to totally hijack a thread but I got a see-me from Caring and Sharing with Simon. I have a bit of a background in animal behavior and altruism is something that is a frequent topic of study (ants, wasps, etc) and I argued that there was no way you could truly say that physicians were altruists. Basically just quoted the arguments in The Selfish Gene. Boy was that a mistake. After that, I made sure no paper I wrote actually said anything.

After one of my first papers came back from that knucklehead with "you should go into radiology, pathology, or anesthesia to avoid most contact with patients" and "see me" in the margin, I was very careful to only write what I thought he wanted to hear.

It's sort of funny that I now find myself an anesthesia resident. Maybe he was right about me. 🙂

I ignored the "see me" but in the end, he wouldn't release my grade to the school and I was forced to endure some 1-on-1 time with him. 🙄

 

[MedicalCorpse]

Not to totally hijack a thread but I got a see-me from Caring and Sharing with Simon. I have a bit of a background in animal behavior and altruism is something that is a frequent topic of study (ants, wasps, etc) and I argued that there was no way you could truly say that physicians were altruists. Basically just quoted the arguments in The Selfish Gene. Boy was that a mistake. After that, I made sure no paper I wrote actually said anything.

Wow, I seem to have struck a nerve with my comment (totally relevant to the thread) regarding animal vivisection at USU in the 1980s, my objection to same in a Human Context paper, and Simon Auster's infamous "See Me" messages. I apologize to the thread starter for generating such animus not related to animals. Perhaps someone should start a thread devoted to the Slings and Arrows of Outrageous Auster (walking around with rocks in shoes on the first day to learn what it feels like to have DJD; non-judgmental attitude toward HIV positive, priapically promiscuous "sexual connoisseurs", etc.)?

I shall leave the task of starting such a thread to others...hopefully, a current USU student will step up to the proverbial plate.

Peace out,

--
R
USU 1990
http://www.medicalcorpse.com

 

[7by11thenout]

I got a see me and a "whatever the term he used for almost fai - needs improvement or something like thatl" as well once.... It was on the paper about death. When I went to talk to him he said, " I didn't actually read the paper it was 1/2 page too long." (It was ablout my dead sister so I could not condense it). I let him have it. Itold him he could not give me that grade if he did not read it. He could either outright fail me because I did not comply with his specifications, but that would be hippocritical since what he wanted us to do was examine our personal issues before we thrust them on our patients which is what I did, or he could read the paper then we could talk.


He then said he would send the paper to 3 other people to get their opinions since he and I obviously did not agree (thank goodness I didnt agree with him on much). all Three people gave me an Excellent. He never appologized, and he left that on my answering machine. I guess he didnt want to deal with me, besides he had a crush on my boyfriend - another classmate whom he called all the time to go do stuff with which in my opinion is improper, showed bias and a little wierd. Dr Macdonald did the same thing as well. In my class Dr M had a thing for all the asian boys.

 

[former military]

I got a see me and a "whatever the term he used for almost fai - needs improvement or something like thatl" as well once.... It was on the paper about death. When I went to talk to him he said, " I didn't actually read the paper it was 1/2 page too long." (It was ablout my dead sister so I could not condense it). I let him have it. Itold him he could not give me that grade if he did not read it. He could either outright fail me because I did not comply with his specifications, but that would be hippocritical since what he wanted us to do was examine our personal issues before we thrust them on our patients which is what I did, or he could read the paper then we could talk.


He then said he would send the paper to 3 other people to get their opinions since he and I obviously did not agree (thank goodness I didnt agree with him on much). all Three people gave me an Excellent. He never appologized, and he left that on my answering machine. I guess he didnt want to deal with me, besides he had a crush on my boyfriend - another classmate whom he called all the time to go do stuff with which in my opinion is improper, showed bias and a little wierd. Dr Macdonald did the same thing as well. In my class Dr M had a thing for all the asian boys.

You USHUS guys and ladies got all the good professors apparently! All I got was a microbiology professor who cycled to work each day in his bike shorts, rinsed them out and hung them up inside out to dry in his office. I think it was to keep people from coming to his office during office hours.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

When I did ATLS ca. 1988, we used dogs. Mine was a Doberman. My grandfather Jones raised Dobermans...Otie was my favorite...When I wrote a long diatribe (in my book, yet to be published) re: my discomfort in vivisecting a Dob, Simon Auster gave me a dreaded "See Me". I garnered at least 3 "See Me's" in my time at USU. Too bad the thoracic aortic aneurysm...

--
R
http://www.medicalcorpse.com

My parents had Dobies when I was growing up. You're right....I would have a hard time working on them under these circumstances....