Mediocre GPA/MCAT offset by having gone to a top 20 undergrad institution?

[FatSquirrel]

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I graduated in 2007 with a major equivalent to pre-med. I took a year off and will be going into a 1 year SMP this fall. I am also in the middle of doing AMCAS (I know it's a bit late, but before my acceptance to the SMP two weeks ago, med school was out of my reach).

My cumulative undergrad GPA is right around a 3.4, and my science GPA is 2.8ish (I took a lot of science electives: embryology; genetics; biochem; physio; microbio; neurobio; cell bio; etc etc).

My only MCAT score from August 2006 was: 27Q (10V; 9B; 8P), and I have signed up to take it again in September (again, I know - it's late, but the MCAT has pretty much been the bane of my existence, and I want to do it right, since it's kind of the make or break factor for me, or so I've been led to believe).

This will be my first time applying, as I decided in undergrad that my performance was too weak to warrant an effort. I have been told from some people that I ought to have applied to DO schools, but I have never shadowed a DO, nor did I want my options to be dictated by my "shoddy" GPA/MCAT.

I guess my question is straightforward. I have a 3.4 (2.8 science) undergrad GPA and a 27Q MCAT. I know that my numbers are far from competitive for most allopathic schools, but I am wondering:

Does having gone to a top 20 school counterbalance a weak GPA?

I have done plenty of clinical volunteering, and I have other notable non-clinical ECs going for me (leadership activities, community service), but no research.

What are my chances?

One more thing to note: I earned a C- in organic chem II during undergrad. This was one of the major reasons I didn't apply to med schools before, and because I got a lot of conflicting advice, I never retook it at a community college or local college over the summer like I should have.

The director of my SMP suggested that it was okay (that I have a C- in a med school pre-req class) because a strong performance in the SMP will show med schools that despite my organic II misstep, I am capable of performing at the med school level. The director of another SMP I got into told me that this C- would prevent my application from even being reviewed.

Can anyone offer any insight on my situation? What schools will "forgive" a C- (which technically is not passing) in a pre-req class? What are my chances, given my circumstances? How much does an SMP factor into everything?

 

[SoFarBehind]

I have no idea what your chances are. BUT.... My girl friend got a C- in OChem II and she's an MS2 at a decent US med school. The reason Organic is so important to the Adcoms is that it is the course that best represents an applicants ability to logic.

 

[MilkmanAl]

A good SMP performance will help you immensely, but you're still going to need to bring your MCAT score up quite a bit. Going to a competitive school helps, but it won't compensate for low scores.

 

[StIGMA]

I guess my question is straightforward. I have a 3.4 (2.8 science) undergrad GPA and a 27Q MCAT. I know that my numbers are far from competitive for most allopathic schools, but I am wondering:

Does having gone to a top 20 school counterbalance a weak GPA?

I do not know much about SMP, so I cannot comment on how much it would help your application. Scoring high marks in SMP would show you could handle the curriculum of med school, though.

Do not count on a "top 20 school" to counterbalance your GPA. Apply broadly, including DO schools. Look to Caribbean/Puerto Rico schools also. You may get into a US allopathic, but if you really want to be a doctor this will not be the most important thing. Apply broadly. Look at MSAR averages, including state preferences.

 

[Lukkie]

i think the general view on these boards is, it helps a little, but it certainly doesn't OFFSET it. for example, a 3.4 at Yale undergrad might be 'equivalent' to a 3.5 at a lesser school. but then we can argue about grade inflation and all that jazz. ultimately its gonna be how the specific med school views numbers and quality of undergrad and i dont think we have many people here that can say for certain what these views are.

however, the MCAT is the great equalizer (everyone takes the same test!) so if your idea that getting low grades in a top tier undergrad has any merit, you really should be dominating the test. which you didnt.

 

[abcabc1]

Medical Schools don't care which undergraduate school you went to. If you went to a top school AND did very well, that is an added bonus at the elite Medical Schools. If you went to a top school BUT performed poorly, they will but you absolutely NO slack, whatsoever. They might even hold your MCAT scores against you to a greater extent, as they expect people from better schools to earn better scores.

The C- hurts. I'm not sure if the SMP performance makes up for that (in the tit-for-tat sense), but it helps. You need to raise your MCAT scores; shoot for at least 30 with no section less than 9. In reality, though, you'll probably need MCAT scores higher than this to get into an Allopathic program.

 

[FatSquirrel]

I do not know much about SMP, so I cannot comment on how much it would help your application. Scoring high marks in SMP would show you could handle the curriculum of med school, though.

Do not count on a "top 20 school" to counterbalance your GPA. Apply broadly, including DO schools. Look to Caribbean/Puerto Rico schools also. You may get into a US allopathic, but if you really want to be a doctor this will not be the most important thing. Apply broadly. Look at MSAR averages, including state preferences.

As a preface, I'm a bit uninformed about overseas allopathic schools.

I am under the general impression that Caribbean and PR schools are kind of a last resort. How do they compare in terms of cost and residency match rate? And.. why are they generally easier to get into?

As for the MCAT, I did under-perform the one time I took it, but, without using anything as a crutch, there were factors that contributed to it, and I am fairly confident that I will fare better in September.

Considering a worst case scenario: if for some reason my MCAT score did NOT go up, I have a 27Q. I obviously will not be applying to Harvard med school and the like, but many other allopathic schools have MCAT medians hovering near 30. That said, would a 27 still automatically throw me out of the running?

I know there are a lot of things stacked against me. I appreciate any advice!

 

[chitownGpremed]

I would strongly advise retaking your MCATs. a 3.4 (2.8) gpa is not the absolute end of the world, but with a 27 on the MCATs, taken together those numbers really suggest that you might struggle with med school courses + the standardized test in med school. I'm not saying that about you, but im just saying a lot of adcom's might view it that way. if you could retake the MCATs and get a 35 or around that, that would go a long way.

 

[JLC]

You need to raise that gpa and the mcat, don't think where you went for undergrad is going to help your application, because most schools care most about numbers (and obviously ur ecs). GPA+MCAT=interviews and then acceptance

Get those numbers in the right place and no body will care where you went to undergrad (and you won't need to hope that it'll help you).

btw, I go to a crappy undergrad, but of the four premed friends I had, they got into harvard, hopkins, Upitt and stanford, all from an undergrad notorious for being a party school, but they had LizzyM scores of over 70 (infact two of them were over 80)

 

[FatSquirrel]

I figured there would be a few state-schoolers who would come in here kind of up in arms about my inquiry. I wasn't suggesting that a 3.4 at a name brand school would be tantamount to a 3.8 at a more obscure school, and I certainly wasn't suggesting that the name of my alma mater would be what carries me. Simply: will it have any impact at all on the review process?

It has to be said, generally speaking, students at upper tier institutions compete against higher caliber peers for top grades. AGAIN, I know my GPA isn't my only hindering factor. I suppose my question is akin to a high school student asking: would it have been better to have earned an A in regular classes than a B in AP/IB classes?

Perhaps someone who has been in a similar situation can shed some insight.

 

[thetubes]

To the OP, I would have to say that your undergrad does carry some weight in a positive way but there are some things you need to consider. First, you said you had taken some more advanced science course work and that is good and that might be able to help explain your GPA. A couple of my friends majored in engineering or a difficult basic science (chem, biochem, physics) and understandably ended up with lower GPAs but still got into great schools.

What I highly recommend is retaking the MCAT and improving your score. One thing about going to a top undergrad is that they expect you to score higher on the MCAT. At my undergrad (an ivy) for instance the avg GPA of accepted students (well over 200/year) is slightly below a 3.6 but the average MCAT is over a 34.

Another thing you need to consider is that generally students who go to top undergrads are of a higher intellectual caliber and so you need to have something that shows that. Ultimately this means taking advantage of the unique opportunities at top undergrads to pursue stuff like research. So unless you're certain you'll hate research (clinical, basic science or otherwise) I highly recommend starting as you puruse your SMP.

Best of luck to you in the future and hopefully when you're a doctor you can look back at these days and laugh!

 

[leskibugg99]

My school always recommended that to be a competitive applicant, you have the average GPA and MCAT score of the medical schools previous first year class. Coming from a top 20 school may help you a bit, but isn't going to make up for having a drastically lower GPA than their average accepted applicant's GPA. Some schools use electronic numerical systems of ranking applicants, and one of the important factors is GPA. If you have a 3.4 but some other dude has a 3.8, it may not matter that you went to Harvard and he went to so and so university.

Like other people have said, the MCAT is the great equalizer. Make it your only job to study for the MCAT. If you haven't been already, start studying as much as you can for that test....starting yesterday. Study study study. For the next month and a half, live and breathe, eat and sleep the mcat. Its absolutely one of the most important parts of applying to medical school for you right now. There is a bit of a difference between a 27 and a 30 MCAT score, so realistically you will need to improve your score. But the difference is not so great that it is out of the question.

Another thing, if you have weaknesses on your application, you may want to address them. People do in their personal statements occasionally, but especially during your interview. If your major was an especially challenging one, where the average GPA was low, but your class rank was high, make sure they know that. You want to make your interviewer believe that even though you didn't do as great in college, you are GOING to be able to hack medical school--because that is one of their concerns. Not everybody is a whiz at standardized tests. Make sure you take that negative and turn it into something positive about your qualifications.

With all that being said, don't give up. Just because you didnt get accepted this year doesn't mean that you won't nexxt year. Medical schools are impressed by persistence, and your hard work will pay off

 

[leskibugg99]

One other thing about your GPA. Barrons (i think its barrons) ranks undergraduate universities programs in terms of their overall "competiveness" for medical schools. A top 20 average isnt always what you want--because normal "rankings" for undergrad are done in a screwy way. But Barrons ranks schools like this: for example, a school may be "highly competitive, strongly competitive, competitive, poorly, and not competitive". Often they have ways to compensate for a lower GPA at a "highly competitive" school, but it isn't going be like, going from a 2.8, to a 3.8, it will be less dramatic than that. So go look up your university, and contact medical schools and see if you get anything extra just for being there. For example, I am going to medical school this year, and my school added on points to my GPA just because of the college I attended. My GPA went from a 3.9 to a 4.4, because our school is "highly competitive." Just remember that there are a lot of good schools out there--and they aren't just the top 20.

 

[Lukkie]

One other thing about your GPA. Barrons (i think its barrons) ranks undergraduate universities programs in terms of their overall "competiveness" for medical schools. A top 20 average isnt always what you want--because normal "rankings" for undergrad are done in a screwy way. But Barrons ranks schools like this: for example, a school may be "highly competitive, strongly competitive, competitive, poorly, and not competitive". Often they have ways to compensate for a lower GPA at a "highly competitive" school, but it isn't going be like, going from a 2.8, to a 3.8, it will be less dramatic than that. So go look up your university, and contact medical schools and see if you get anything extra just for being there. For example, I am going to medical school this year, and my school added on points to my GPA just because of the college I attended. My GPA went from a 3.9 to a 4.4, because our school is "highly competitive." Just remember that there are a lot of good schools out there--and they aren't just the top 20.

do you perhaps have a link on amazon or something to this book? i cant find anything like it

 

[leskibugg99]

do you perhaps have a link on amazon or something to this book? i cant find anything like it

I don't how to find it, or if you can even get it publicly. The people in admissions at my medical school told us about it during the application process (this particular school always comes to my old undergrad institution during the fall). Your premed advisor may also be able to give you some indication. My best advice is to call a medical school you are interested in and ask them about it, and see if they even do anything to "help" you if you go to a more competitive school. Medical school admission offices are usually really friendly and helpful and can answer any/all of your questions--at least they all were when I aplied. Plus, calling can be a good idea anyway because some schools reward you for calling/emailing because it shows you have an interest in that one school. Persistence is another good thing to give you an extra little edge.

I also have to say that i think each medical school does things a little bit differently--this was just what I learned from my experience applying earlier this year. 🙂

 

[spyderracing32]

I have no idea what your chances are. BUT.... My girl friend got a C- in OChem II and she's an MS2 at a decent US med school. The reason Organic is so important to the Adcoms is that it is the course that best represents an applicants ability to logic.

Funny, I'd think the course that best represents an applicants ability in logic would be.... logic?