medstudent99

[militarymd]

go to post 39 and re read..

go to post 39 and re read

you are implying it my friend, and now you are quibbling..

by the way.. are you a chick?

..I understand that people are different...and this one should never have been allowed into medical school...but did....How? You tell me.

What am I implying? I stated that this guy should never have been allowed into medical schooll......very clear based on performance....I'm asking you how this person got into medical school....simple question....tell me.....because I don't know how it is possible someone like this got in AND graduated...AND finished residency to torture me now with this unbelieveably low performance......and to have the gall to play the system because of skin color.

I'm a man,but YOU must be a chick....only chicks read into things like you.....I always have be careful what I say to my wife....because she's always reading into things.

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[Laryngospasm]

this is the comment i was refering to...LOL believe this attitude towards "urm's" by well frankly mostly white ppl is nothing new...thanks for clearing that one up for me laryngospasm

What does that even mean?

 

[medstudent99]

laryngospasm r u white???

 

[johankriek]

What am I implying? I stated that this guy should never have been allowed into medical schooll......very clear based on performance....I'm asking you how this person got into medical school....simple question....tell me.....because I don't know how it is possible someone like this got in AND graduated...AND finished residency to torture me now with this unbelieveably low performance......and to have the gall to play the system because of skin color.

I'm a man,but YOU must be a chick....only chicks read into things like you.....I always have be careful what I say to my wife....because she's always reading into things.

dud you are not racist for wanting to fire the guy You are racist for other reasons.. .. i dont care if he is black.. if he is low performer get rid of him.. why dont you give us examplesof how bad he is|?? does he put lmas in prone cases? does he put spinals in anticoagulated patients... if he is that bad.. then its y our duty to get rid of him.. ??

 

[medstudent99]

i mean because if u r it explains the condescending attitude...i'm pretty sure u are

 

[Laryngospasm]

laryngospasm r u white???

Are you black?

 

[militarymd]

yo mil, this way uncool.

you call on medstudent99 into a discussion, and he humbly states that he does not have the experience to adequately answer your question. you bait him into further discussion appealing to his general sense of right vs wrong. then you b*tchslap him with an argument that he lacks sufficient qualifications to participate.

if course he's not a lawyer. most of us aren't. we're doctors. you'd be a fool to take our legal advice. so why trash an intern in a pissing match?

He had suggested, in that long dead thread, that I should include the low performing person into my business.

I asked if he would really accept that...

He said no.....and I said I agree.....but letting this person go is not that simple....

He said I was wrong...and that URM status is irrelevant....

But it is.....

I asked about "fairness" in a group....anyone can answer that...

but legal situation is only something that a lawyer can answer...because I don't want to believe the lawyer.

I don't think I trashed him....I was leading him to a conclusion that he didn't want to believe or accept...

That's usually when people start calling me names....that's also when I usually know that intellectually they know I'm right but are unable to accept it at the emotional level.

 

[militarymd]

dud you are not racist for wanting to fire the guy You are racist for other reasons.. .. i dont care if he is black.. if he is low performer get rid of him.. why dont you give us examplesof how bad he is|?? does he put lmas in prone cases? does he put spinals in anticoagulated patients... if he is that bad.. then its y our duty to get rid of him.. ??

1) not BE
2) tardiness
3) does not preop patients and supervise CRNAs in a legal manner
4) unnecessary pre-op testing
5) frequent unnecessary case cancellation
6) does not answer pager when on call
7) when called on call....takes much longer than the allowed 30 minutes to arrive at the hospital.
8) Has absolutely no awareness of ASA and other guidlines..
9) When performing cases ...turnover excessively long....multiple surgeon complaints.
10) does not know how to place double lumen tubes
11) does not know how to perform awake intubations
12) does not know how to place epidurals....well kind of knows....usually takes about an hour...and uses 250 mcg of fentanyl on initiation of epidual in laboring patients
13) does not know how to perform regional anesthesia
14) on and on and on...


What makes me a racist? show me a post where I make a racist comment.

 

[johankriek]

u love crnas too..

u should go to the convention and then shake clintons hand and tell him you are gonna vote for hillary

 

[militarymd]

u love crnas too..

u should go to the convention and then shake clintons hand and tell him you are gonna vote for hillary

see here we go.....open discussion....I make some observations....relay what an experienced attorney told me...

followed by insults and name calling....

I just don't understand.

 

[medstudent99]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! laryngospasm why be coy? why beat around the bush??? LOL i know u don't like me, it's too obvious and i can guess why. i mean i am speaking plain english, anyone who can read "Dick and Jane" can understand what i am trying to say...does that clear it up at all???

 

[johankriek]

1) not BE
2) tardiness
3) does not preop patients and supervise CRNAs in a legal manner
4) unnecessary pre-op testing
5) frequent unnecessary case cancellation
6) does not answer pager when on call
7) when called on call....takes much longer than the allowed 30 minutes to arrive at the hospital.
8) Has absolutely no awareness of ASA and other guidlines..
9) When performing cases ...turnover excessively long....multiple surgeon complaints.
10) does not know how to place double lumen tubes
11) does not know how to perform awake intubations
12) does not know how to place epidurals....well kind of knows....usually takes about an hour...and uses 250 mcg of fentanyl on initiation of epidual in laboring patients
13) does not know how to perform regional anesthesia
14) on and on and on...


What makes me a racist? show me a post where I make a racist comment.

dude
why cant you just not renew his contract? go to the hospital administration.... document specific examples of the above.... and have the administration yank his priveleges.. put him on probation and tell him if he doesnt improve.. he wont work there.. seriously, im all for aa but if he is performing that POORly.. he needs to be fired..

 

[militarymd]

I think military is venting a little bit and everybody is entitled to some venting. I think it is sufficient to say that anybody who has failed the written boards SIX TIMES and is no longer BE without returning and repeating a year of residency would be subject to his ire, whether they were black, white, green, or purple.

Enough said.


PMMD

The ABA allows you to become BE again simply by taking the written boards and passing them....without re entering residency.....CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT?

 

[militarymd]

dude
why cant you just not renew his contract? go to the hospital administration.... document specific examples of the above.... and have the administration yank his priveleges.. put him on probation and tell him if he doesnt improve.. he wont work there.. seriously, im all for aa but if he is performing that POORly.. he needs to be fired..

If it were only that simple. Hospitals have more to lose (more money that a lawyer can go after) than a small anesthesia group.

My chief of surgery has gone to the CEO say he wants this person fired.....The hospital is not willing to do it.....because of the same reasons that I will have problems.

Termination of this person rests solely on the shoulders of me and my partners.....and the attorney has warned us of potential litigation....

This person has been on probation before....non-clincal behaviors improve during the probation period...only to resurface after the probatioon period is over.....This person knows how to game the system.

I plan on terminating this person....the decision has been made...but I will likely have consequences....

But no one seems to believe me...because I'm a racist?

 

[Qtip96]

I don't think I trashed him....I was leading him to a conclusion that he didn't want to believe or accept...

That's usually when people start calling me names....that's also when I usually know that intellectually they know I'm right but are unable to accept it at the emotional level.

intellectually, i don't think you're right.

no name calling .

would you agree with me that the crux of the previous thread was a general perception in the relaxing of preformance criteria for URMs in medicine?

this thread has solidified that the motive for this discussion is your discontent with an apparently incompetent and unscrupulous colleague who also happens to be a URM. further, you anticipate a costly legal battle due to his ethnic background. the root of this person's problems (and yours) has to do with this colleague's moral fiber and his willingness to take advantage of other people. his character flaws (laziness, dishonesty, greed, etc.) have little to do with affirmative action, and i have witnessed the very same traits in many phsycians irrespective of ethnic background. your intellectual arguments makes sense if you think that affirmative action engenders physicians with moral shortcomings in addition to lesser performance.

 

[medstudent99]

laryngospasm lemme guess ur favorite movie..."american history x"???? LMAO!!!!!!!!!

 

[johankriek]

The ABA allows you to become BE again simply by taking the written boards and passing them....without re entering residency.....CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT?

if you fail the written boards 3 times.. you are given 3 more tries.. if you fail it 3 more times you lose your board eligibility.. How to get it back? repeat one year of residency....or take the in training exam and score a 31 or above (2 digit score).. then you are allowed back in the "board eligibility" and the process starts again.> Very very few people.. this happens to.. i would venture to say in the single digits..

no name calling.

 

[Laryngospasm]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! laryngospasm why be coy? why beat around the bush??? LOL i know u don't like me, it's too obvious and i can guess why. i mean i am speaking plain english, anyone who can read "Dick and Jane" can understand what i am trying to say...does that clear it up at all???

I dont even know you, so no, I dont dislike you.

 

[militarymd]

Very very few people.. this happens to.. i would venture to say in the single digits..

no name calling.

and I employ one of them...

calling someone racist isn't name calling?

 

[militarymd]

would you agree with me that the crux of the previous thread was a general perception in the relaxing of preformance criteria for URMs in medicine?

That was the crux of the previous thread....and it is not a perception...it is reality.

this thread has solidified that the motive for this discussion is your discontent with an apparently incompetent and unscrupulous colleague who also happens to be a URM. further, you anticipate a costly legal battle due to his ethnic background. the root of this person's problems (and yours) has to do with this colleague's moral fiber and his willingness to take advantage of other people. his character flaws (laziness, dishonesty, greed, etc.) have little to do with affirmative action, and i have witnessed the very same traits in many phsycians irrespective of ethnic background. your intellectual arguments makes sense if you think that affirmative action engenders physicians with moral shortcomings in addition to lesser performance.

AA does not engender physicians with moral shortcomings.......however, AA is a pathway which allows individuals with less ability, based on objective measures, less motivation, less work ethic, less etc, to become physicians.

I am still trying to figure out how this person ever got into medical school, got into residency, and finished residency.

There is just no way a person like this should be allowed in medicine.

I

 

[Qtip96]

laryngospasm lemme guess ur favorite movie..."american history x"???? LMAO!!!!!!!!!

med, you need to chill. don't make an ass of yourself.

That was the crux of the previous thread....and it is not a perception...it is reality.

we don't need to revisit this discussion. suffice to say we have our opinions.

There is just no way a person like this should be allowed in medicine.

based on your description, agreed.

truth is, i don't think that the practice of medicine is all that difficult. that is to say, < 1% of what i cannot do can be attributed to a lack of intellect (and i'm no einstein nor am i forrest gump). it is far easier to gather the salient points from NEJM (and in my case Circulation and JACC) than from Cell, Science, and Nature. compared to other intellectually challenging endeavors, i would rank clinical practice as moderately demanding. the traits i find valuable in medicine include work ethic, integrity, compassion, and attention to detail. none of this is related with AA or URM status. for example, a doctor's sense of integrity will motivate him/her to fill voids in knowledge that are required for competent care. compassion and attention to detail results in prompt and conscientous care. you get my drift.

you might spend your agonized moments wondering how this colleague ever got into medicine. i think you are barking up the wrong tree. he did pass his requisite exams initially, and demonstrated at least minimal intellectual capacity. it is his moral shortcomings and laziness that is responsible for your current dilemma, and anyone can lapse into these vices.

 

[synoohe]

you might spend your agonized moments wondering how this colleague ever got into medicine. i think you are barking up the wrong tree.

.

 

[deleted50478]

I agree that you are barking up the wrong tree now. I'm opposed to AA as legal discrimination, but your current problem is a separate, though related, issue.

In every field, there is trouble firing URMs. To deny that its beyond reason. If you have a horrible white employee, you can fire him with no problem. With an URM the employee, no matter how incompetent, he will blame race for his firing. That's sad but is only part of the problem. The other problem is that when the trial comes many jury members, who will be URMs since the lawyers will sue in a URM district if possible, will also assume that the firing was race related. You are assumed to be a racist in court and you are left to prove to a jury that is automatically against you that the emloyee was at fault.

This is one of many cases of good intentions leading to bad outcomes. It's important that URMs not be fired for racist reasons or even soft-racist reasons like 'he didn't fit in.' Preventing that was positive, but has led to the situation we are discussing now. It seems clear that Mil isn't trying to fire the URM for racist reasons, but he is unable to get rid of an employee who deserves to be fired because she's an URM. URMs should get fair treatment, but fair treatment is impossible if they're bullet proof.

Maybe you could counter-sue the employee in the burbs... It's sad that location determines outcome. What has our legal system come to?

 

[Laryngospasm]

Maybe you could counter-sue the employee in the burbs... It's sad that location determines outcome. What has our legal system come to?

Money for lawyers.

 

[dogbone65]

Always trust MilMD to call it like it is. I appreciate your honesty and candor and sympathize with your situation. I'm sure your legal team has told you this but for most instances careful documentation of every egregious detail and problem will help to keep your a$$ out of hot water. Paper trails....still gotta have em...........especially for personnel issues.

 

[militarymd]

he did pass his requisite exams initially, and demonstrated at least minimal intellectual capacity. it is his moral shortcomings and laziness that is responsible for your current dilemma, and anyone can lapse into these vices.

The anesthesia written boards are pretty easy.....do you really think the above highlighted is true?

He failed his written boards 6 times!!!!


Do you really believe that he demonstrated minimal intellectual capacity....ever?

I have a hard time believing that someone's intellect, work ethic, work habits....all the attributes that is important in becoming a professional....withered away in medical school and residency?

Either ways....AA is not the issue here...you're right I'm blaming that system for the presence of this person....is that true or not? I have no way of knowing for sure.

However, I do blame anti-racist agenda of the courts for the continued presence of this person in my practice....in that I have potential for significant financial loss because it is easy for a URM to raise the race flag when they don't meet expectations.

 

[Qtip96]

I have a hard time believing that someone's intellect, work ethic, work habits....all the attributes that is important in becoming a professional....withered away in medical school and residency?

Either ways....AA is not the issue here...you're right I'm blaming that system for the presence of this person....is that true or not? I have no way of knowing for sure.

However, I do blame anti-racist agenda of the courts for the continued presence of this person in my practice....in that I have potential for significant financial loss because it is easy for a URM to raise the race flag when they don't meet expectations.

despite appearances, i am neither illiterate nor slow on the uptake. giant colored letters are not necessary to emphasize a point. bold-faced or capitalized letter would suffice, thank you.

as for initial capacity. he/she had to have passed all the USMLE steps. i would rate the USMLE I (moderately difficult), USMLE II (easier), and USMLE III (easier). anyone who passed these steps has the mental capacity to pass his/her specialty boards. it just takes a willingness and discipline to study the material.

as for whether the "system" created this creature, you stated yourself that you "have no way to know for sure". in any event, unless you have the means to change admission protocols, there is no point in getting bent out of shape about it.

as for the anti-racist agenda in the legal system, i don't have any personal experience with it. but at a subjective level, it does appear to be problematic, and it is more pertinent to your troubles than affirmative action. from my perspective, legal arguments and court systems appear to be a tangible subject from which you can strategize a way to rid yourself of this colleague. addressing ethnic diversity in admissions committees is a philosophical argument over which we generally have no influence (except to vote for presidents who will select supreme court justices of like mind), and is no guarantee against admitting people with questionable morals or without durable work ethic. it is clear to me where you should be bending your intellectual energy.

 

[militarymd]

as for initial capacity. he/she had to have passed all the USMLE steps. i would rate the USMLE I (moderately difficult), USMLE II (easier), and USMLE III (easier). anyone who passed these steps has the mental capacity to pass his/her specialty boards. it just takes a willingness and discipline to study the material.

Although USMLE is the standard licensing exam now (except for DO's test), back when this person became licensed.....there was the FLEX.....do you remember that exam....the one that people took who could not pass USMLE.

 

[Qtip96]

hell, even most black men will say OJ did it!!!!

 

[Qtip96]

Although USMLE is the standard licensing exam now (except for DO's test), back when this person became licensed.....there was the FLEX.....do you remember that exam....the one that people took who could not pass USMLE.

so you know for sure this person failed the USMLE, then took the FLEX?

 

[militarymd]

so you know for sure this person failed the USMLE, then took the FLEX?

no...I was just pointing out that your statement about passing USMLE may not be accurate.


And it would not surprise me if that was the case...because he has already tried to become "board certified' by going the ABPS route....but I said only ABMS is acceptable.

 

[johankriek]

.......however, AA is a pathway which allows individuals with less ability, based on objective measures, less motivation, less work ethic, less etc, to become physicians.

the above statement by this poster is NOT TRUE please refer to my last couple of posts in your "stirring things up thread"

 

[lvspro]

1) not BE
2) tardiness
3) does not preop patients and supervise CRNAs in a legal manner
4) unnecessary pre-op testing
5) frequent unnecessary case cancellation
6) does not answer pager when on call
7) when called on call....takes much longer than the allowed 30 minutes to arrive at the hospital.
8) Has absolutely no awareness of ASA and other guidlines..
9) When performing cases ...turnover excessively long....multiple surgeon complaints.
10) does not know how to place double lumen tubes
11) does not know how to perform awake intubations
12) does not know how to place epidurals....well kind of knows....usually takes about an hour...and uses 250 mcg of fentanyl on initiation of epidual in laboring patients
13) does not know how to perform regional anesthesia
14) on and on and on...


What makes me a racist? show me a post where I make a racist comment.

Holy crap!!! How did this guy make it through residency?!?!

 

[deleted50478]

hell, even most black men will say OJ did it!!!!

Most would say OJ did it, but would vote not guilty anyway if they were on the jury.

 

[Qtip96]

Most would say OJ did it, but would vote not guilty anyway if they were on the jury.

i would've given him the chair.

oops! 'twas california... injection rather...

 

[Noyac]

Just hear to commend you guys on the course of this discussion. It could be heated but at least everyone is keeping their cool and not insulting each other.


I didn't read every post however.

 

[militarymd]

Just hear to commend you guys on the course of this discussion. It could be heated but at least everyone is keeping their cool and not insulting each other.


I didn't read every post however.

I was insulted!!!!.....but no body really cares about how Chinese people feel.

 

[Qtip96]

I was insulted!!!!.....but no body really cares about how Chinese people feel.

not me!

but c'mon man. you seem like the strong but silent type with thick skin...

 

[militarymd]

not me!

but c'mon man. you seem like the strong but silent type with thick skin...

Noooo....I'm the loud obnoxious type....my nurses compare me to a banti rooster

 

[Qtip96]

Noooo....I'm the loud obnoxious type....my nurses compare me to a banti rooster

hehe... at least you guarantee people hear you!

 

[Noyac]

I was insulted!!!!.....but no body really cares about how Chinese people feel.

I'm sorry Mil. I did discount you. I guess its just cause I'm so accustom to reading insults geared at you. Which by the way is so unusual since you are the most easy going guy here, even if you are chinese.

 

[jwk]

1) not BE
2) tardiness
3) does not preop patients and supervise CRNAs in a legal manner
4) unnecessary pre-op testing
5) frequent unnecessary case cancellation
6) does not answer pager when on call
7) when called on call....takes much longer than the allowed 30 minutes to arrive at the hospital.
8) Has absolutely no awareness of ASA and other guidlines..
9) When performing cases ...turnover excessively long....multiple surgeon complaints.
10) does not know how to place double lumen tubes
11) does not know how to perform awake intubations
12) does not know how to place epidurals....well kind of knows....usually takes about an hour...and uses 250 mcg of fentanyl on initiation of epidual in laboring patients
13) does not know how to perform regional anesthesia
14) on and on and on...

Mil - as long as you have documented the problem, FIRE THEIR ASS! If they want to sue, let them sue. Sounds like you'd have no problem lining up witnesses. This person is a huge liability for your group every minute they're there.

#3 above is reason enough - you worry about the legal side if this idiot comes back with a discrimination lawsuit. You should worry MUCH more if they are signing Medicare and insurance claims fraudulently. This can impact each and every one of you in your group - the phrase "triple damages" is meant to put the fear of God in everyone regarding Medicare fraud. Failure to act to prevent Medicare fraud means that you and your group would be considered COMPLICIT in Medicare fraud - just as guilty, just as liable.

I'm not discounting the clinical issues - they're important as well.

 

[Gern Blansten]

And it would not surprise me if that was the case...because he has already tried to become "board certified' by going the ABPS route....but I said only ABMS is acceptable.

I was not familiar with the ABPS certification process. I went to their website and looked into it. To the casual observer, it looks pretty legitimate. Upon close inspection, it seems a little shaky. The references that they suggest that you study and that the test is made from includes only "handbook" versions of the major texts(Barash, Stoelting, etc). Granted, those are nice texts, but most legitimate boards would have referenced the FULL text, not the handbook. Is there anyone here who can enlighten me as to who is taking this exam? I noticed there were a lot of DOs on the board. I know that people who do an osteopathic residency can take seperate non ABMS boards. Is this the one they take??

 

[militarymd]

I was not familiar with the ABPS certification process. I went to their website and looked into it. To the casual observer, it looks pretty legitimate. Upon close inspection, it seems a little shaky. The references that they suggest that you study and that the test is made from includes only "handbook" versions of the major texts(Barash, Stoelting, etc). Granted, those are nice texts, but most legitimate boards would have referenced the FULL text, not the handbook. Is there anyone here who can enlighten me as to who is taking this exam? I noticed there were a lot of DOs on the board. I know that people who do an osteopathic residency can take seperate non ABMS boards. Is this the one they take??

DO's have DO boards.

ABPS is for both DO's and MD's

 

[Gern Blansten]

DO's have DO boards.

ABPS is for both DO's and MD's

So ABPS serves ONLY as an alternate pathway for those who cannot pass the standard boards??

 

[Trisomy13]

I was insulted!!!!.....but no body really cares about how Chinese people feel.

Well.. it's because you don't have souls.







(I kid. And for the record, my take on your situation is spend the time and money to document every aspect, get written testimonials from all the surgeons and staff that support you, etc, pay the lawyers in cash and blood, and fire the guy. It's unfortunate that he might be the type of person to sue you - pulling the race card as you said - but that is a reality in our culture today and something that all races are guilty of in one way or another (oh how i laugh when i hear about "reverse racism"). Make a strong case about his shortcomings, and that he is a serious danger to the well-being of patients. Pay the lawyer and welcome to the American legal system.)

Just read jwk's post above - my post can be reduced to "agreed with jwk".

 

[toughlife]

If you had enough cojones, you would have fired him already instead of coming in here and talking behind his back. Grow some b*lls and do the right thing.

 

[militarymd]

So ABPS serves ONLY as an alternate pathway for those who cannot pass the standard boards??

It would appear so....do you not agree?