MFT Doctoral Programs

[ClinicalPsychhh]

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I apologize if MFT threads aren't allowed here... but the people on these forums seem to be very knowledgeable, so I wanted to ask about this.

I have my MA in MFT, and my goal is to become licensed in California (currently a registered intern). The only thing is... I really want my doctorate. I don't want to get a PsyD or PhD in Clinical because that isn't the license I want. I want to be an MFT. I know there are a few MFT doctoral programs in CA... Alliant, Chicago School, Loma Linda... (actually that's all I know of). Does anyone have input on any of these? Would it be worth it? I actually would like to cross Loma Linda off the list, because I don't like the focus of their curriculum.

 

[Marissa4usa]

Here is a list of all accredited MFT programs (masters and doctoral)

http://www.aamft.org/cgi-shl/twserver.exe?run:COALIST

 

[ClinicalPsychhh]

Thanks. But I actually don't care at all about the COAMFTE accreditation. It doesn't seem to make a bit of difference in California. All I care about is regional accreditation. And the doctoral program doesn't need to be licensure-based either because I already completed all my academic requirements for licensure as an MFT in California. I just want quality education that will lead to a doctorate in my field.

Does anyone have any experience with, or know someone who attended, The Chicago School? As of now I like their post-master's PsyD quite a bit, I just don't know what kind of reputation the school has in the field, and the quality of education people receive. So that's really what I want to hear about.

 

[jdawgg]

Why are you interested in getting a doctorate in MFT? If you want to teach, you'll need a PhD from a real university.. if you're practicing, you'll still be practicing under a master's level license. In any case, racking up an exhorbitant amount debt at a professional school in any discipline is generally a bad idea financially speaking (see threads on Alliant, Argosy, and the like).

 

[ClinicalPsychhh]

Did you seriously just ask me why I want a doctorate? I'm just going to pretend you didn't, if you don't mind.

I also know that I don't need a PhD in order to teach, and that wasn't my question anyway. I would prefer if people would respond with something helpful, or not at all.

There are a lot of MFTs in California, and in fact there are more jobs here for MFTs than there are for clinical psychologists, so I feel confident in my career choice. I've also decided I want a doctorate to enhance my career. But replying to my post and talking about "real universities" doesn't help me whatsoever, ESPECIALLY if you don't even tell me what you mean by that.

 

[Student4Life0]

Why are you interested in getting a doctorate in MFT? If you want to teach, you'll need a PhD from a real university.. if you're practicing, you'll still be practicing under a master's level license. In any case, racking up an exhorbitant amount debt at a professional school in any discipline is generally a bad idea financially speaking (see threads on Alliant, Argosy, and the like).

+1

I agree with this. I think the real question though isn't why you would want a doctorate, but rather, what are your career objectives? What will a doctoral degree afford you to do that an MFT won't?

 

[Marissa4usa]

I do agree with jdawgg, why do you want to rack up a lot debt if the benefits are the same.
It might not be my place to question your intentions but since you are putting yourself out here, I think it's reasonable of others trying to understand your intentions.
So, why do you want a doctorate?
If you want to teach, you do need a doctorate,unless you'd be happy to teach at the community college-level or maybe some very low-tier four-year colleges and those do not pay well.
So, if you want to be a professor and/or teach/do research, it is essential that you get your doctorate from a reputable school, otherwise the only places to let you teach will the ones that would have taken you with your masters only, so there would be no need to get into debt in the first place.

Besides that, would you be willing to leave CA for your education? You are going to be licensed there anyways, so that shouldn't be problem. This way you wouldn't be restricted to schools that generally have a pretty low rep.
One program I know of is the PhD program in Human Development at UC Davis.
http://humandevelopment.ucdavis.edu/phd.php

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I would reconsider acred. status since it can impact employability in the event you leave CA. I'm not sure if there is a licensure at the doctoral level for MFTs, though this can impact billing and also job prospects (being able to bill at a doctoral level will allow for a higher reimbursement rate).

 

[ClinicalPsychhh]

MFTs with doctorates do end up billing more than MFTs without doctorates, at least around here. But, that's not really why I want it. I want it because I want the education. I also do want to teach, and there were many professors who taught in my MFT program at Pepperdine who were great who were PsyDs, a couple from Alliant (which is really popular in California and pretty highly regarded). I also want to do a little bit of clinical research, though not the amount that large research schools would require. My goal is to be a clinician with a great education to take me there, and in my opinion you can't really put a price on that. The debt doesn't really matter to me, honestly. Even if I'm paying off my student loans for the rest of my life, it's hardly different from any other bill I'll be paying for the rest of my life.

I take it, from the responses I've gotten, that you guys don't think The Chicago School is a reputable school. I hear about it all the time, however, but never really heard anything positive nor negative about it, since it's fairly new out in Cali, which is why I asked. But I absolutely LOVE the curriculum they offer for their post-master's PsyD in MFT. I prefer it to any other doctorate curriculum I've looked at.

I highly doubt I'll ever leave Cali, especially not now. Moving is not an option for me, but I would be willing to commute anywhere from the San Diego area up through LA, since I live right smack in the middle of them.

 

[ClinicalPsychhh]

I don't know, bills like utilities, cable, cell phone, internet... I'll definitely have those for the rest of my life... haha.

 

[jdawgg]

Did you seriously just ask me why I want a doctorate? I'm just going to pretend you didn't, if you don't mind.

I also know that I don't need a PhD in order to teach, and that wasn't my question anyway. I would prefer if people would respond with something helpful, or not at all.

There are a lot of MFTs in California, and in fact there are more jobs here for MFTs than there are for clinical psychologists, so I feel confident in my career choice. I've also decided I want a doctorate to enhance my career. But replying to my post and talking about "real universities" doesn't help me whatsoever, ESPECIALLY if you don't even tell me what you mean by that.

Sensitive much? Asking why you're interested in a doctorate in marriage and family therapy from an expensive unaccredited professional school versus a "real university" (yes, you know what this means) is a legitimate question and it was intended to be helpful. Without understanding why you're interested in pursuing doctoral-level education of this sort, it's difficult for us to determine whether this school makes any sense for your situation. It seems like you'd rather engage in help-rejecting complaining, though, so I'm not sure that any advice we'd dispense would ultimately be too helpful for you.

 

[edith]

But it's in Philadelphia.

http://www.drexel.edu/familyTherapy/programs/doctoral/

 

[ClinicalPsychhh]

Actually, I apologize for ever starting this thread. The joke is on me. Because I've read other threads here, so I guess I was quite aware of the fact that this forum is filled with arrogant as*holes who talk about little else than finances when it comes to graduate schools. I really hope you all are ONLY going to be doing research in the field of clinical psychology, because God help any of your future clients who would be wasting their time and money on you.

I'm never coming back to this forum, so don't bother replying to me. I hope, for all your sake, that you GROW UP a little.

 

[twilson]

Actually, I apologize for ever starting this thread. The joke is on me. Because I've read other threads here, so I guess I was quite aware of the fact that this forum is filled with arrogant as*holes who talk about little else than finances when it comes to graduate schools. I really hope you all are ONLY going to be doing research in the field of clinical psychology, because God help any of your future clients who would be wasting their time and money on you.

I'm never coming back to this forum, so don't bother replying to me. I hope, for all your sake, that you GROW UP a little.

Farewell cruel fora!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

just to clarify, there really isn't such a dichotomous split between research and clinical work. most psychologists engage in some type of direct patient work.

as for the average SND clinical poster...I think they are seeking and sharing information, and the results of those actions are not always rainbows and puppies. I am glad there are posters that talk about the not so great parts of the profession and training because there are very real issues there. Ultimately each poster will make his or her own choice, but I hope it is as informed as possible.

 

[KillerDiller]

I really hope you all are ONLY going to be doing research in the field of clinical psychology, because God help any of your future clients who would be wasting their time and money on you.

This HAS to be this forum's version of Godwin's Law, right? Eventually, if the thread goes on long enough, someone pulls out the "I hope you don't talk to your clients that way" argument.

Clearly we have to talk to everyone as if they are a client. That won't be exhausting or anything 🙄.

 

[Ollie123]

We certainly do have to talk to everyone as if they were clients. Talking to a client also consists of being over-the-top optimistic and positive about things. After all, the best therapists NEVER ask hard questions, NEVER encourage clients to think about things realistically, and certainly would never even DREAM of being anything but blindingly optimistic about everything the client expresses an interest in doing.

Oh wait, that's what bad therapists who went into psychology thinking they would get to charge $150/hour for being someone's friend and sounding board do. Albert Ellis is a bit of an extreme case, but I wouldn't exactly call his therapeutic style warm and cuddly.

 

[erg923]

Thats a good point, I think if i was as delicate with my wife as I am with many of my patients she would slap me But then again, part of working with patients is giving them hard realities, questioning their motives and expectations, and making them think about things they don't want to confront. So actually, my argument is that people are indeed treating you like a patient, in some ways at least.

Second, nobody likes to be told what to do. Do not tell me how to respond to your thread. Its pretentious. The nice thing about discussion board forums is that conversations can drift and branch out, thus allowing for the discussion of interesting ideas, perspectives, etc. Many people find that to be a great part of SDN. Sometimes things will be said that your dont like or dont wanna hear. Thats life.

The point about why you want a doctorate is a actually a good one. You should not be offended. There is no sense in wasting your twenties slaving away on a ph.d if you can accomplish those career goals with a MFT. I don't understand the teaching argument you put forth either. I know lots of MFTs who teach courses in family therapy, clinical interviewing, and/or who supervise practicum students. They are not faculty, but the real job of tenure-track faculty at universities is research, not teaching. Teaching just happens to be a small part of the overall responsibility.

So...I would recommend you take time and think about whether the doctorate is really necessary for your career goals? Do you like research? Do you think of yourself as a scientist? Think carefully about financial issues that will effect your for the rest of your life. Think about your loans in terms of your max earning potential too. 200k on med student future salary= not much problem. 200k on average psychologist's salary=not good. You may not care about these things now, but TRUST ME, you will when your 30 and want a nice big wedding, or want to buy a house, or start your family, or send your kids to private school, or save for retirement, etc. Or frankly, even afford a good health insurance plan. Money is not happiness, but money does allow you to care for yourself and provide for your family. These are issues that would be very important to me, and I imagine to the majority of people.

 

[KillerDiller]

We certainly do have to talk to everyone as if they were clients. Talking to a client also consists of being over-the-top optimistic and positive about things. After all, the best therapists NEVER ask hard questions, NEVER encourage clients to think about things realistically, and certainly would never even DREAM of being anything but blindingly optimistic about everything the client expresses an interest in doing.

Oh wait, that's what bad therapists who went into psychology thinking they would get to charge $150/hour for being someone's friend and sounding board do. Albert Ellis is a bit of an extreme case, but I wouldn't exactly call his therapeutic style warm and cuddly.

This reminds me of a fantastic book I read over the summer. Barbara Ehrenreich's Bright-Sided is a scathing review of America's devotion to blind optimism, for anyone who is interested. She takes on positive psychology as well.

 

[erg923]

I make a motion that we simply start countering these "I want what I want and don't tell me about any of the negatives/consequences or else you're a dick" posts with this and nothing more. All those in favor, say I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEhDZN0RFjw

 

[cheeze]

I heard from a director that does the hiring himself that if you want to be an MFT don't get a PhD. because when he hires he picks master-level applicants over the PhDs for two reasons.

1. The PhDs are over qualified for the jobs looking for therapists (basically he said that the PhD/PsyDs seem struggling to find jobs for their level of qualification and are going for positions that only require an MFT)
2. MFTs are cheaper to hire, thus he tends to pick price over education level

He may be a little biased, but thats information from an accomplished MFT that does the hiring

 

[DrGero]

Those are different. Cable can be canceled, cell phone can be cancelled, internet can be cancelled. Your student loan debt cannot be cancelled. Further, this will most likely be your largest monthly bill (maybe outside of rent/mortgage). It is a huge financial commitment. Further, it is not dischargable in bankruptcy. You're almost better off running up huge credit card debt (please don't do that).

As a complete sidetracking of this thread, aside from student loan debt the only other debt that approaches being nearly-impossible to cancel is mortgage debt on an underwater home.

My wife and I are in that boat right now. We can't refinance because we're underwater, we can't sell because the market continues to be ridiculously bad (and the bank in all likelihood won't approve a short sale because of this), and if we walk away we'd end up ruining our credit for the next 7 years - something I suppose we could do.... which makes it different than student loans, but.... well.... 🙁