Mich vs Penn

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polarbears

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I was set on going to Mich with departmental scholarship worth 15K. Today, however, I've got off from the waiting list of my top choice Penn so I am not sure what to do anymore. Probably no scholarship.

I am planning to take 3 year Navy HPSP, so the cost difference (if I get the scholarship) will be approximately $35,000 / year (Penn is more expensive by this much)

Should I just stay with Michigan or go to my top choice Penn? I am not really interested in specializing, but I would love to live in a big city like Phily where it is 1.5 hrs away from NY or DC area. I don't know about Ann Arbor, but it looked pretty boring to me when I interviewed there back in October, not to mention the brutal cold winter (I grew up in So-Cal and never left the state)

I have a feeling that majority will say to go to Michigan, however, Penn has been like a dream school for me (yes, Ivy reputation partially plays a role here too)

Thanks,
 
I was set on going to Mich with departmental scholarship worth 15K. Today, however, I've got off from the waiting list of my top choice Penn so I am not sure what to do anymore. Probably no scholarship.

I am planning to take 3 year Navy HPSP, so the cost difference (if I get the scholarship) will be approximately $35,000 / year (Penn is more expensive by this much)

Should I just stay with Michigan or go to my top choice Penn? I am not really interested in specializing, but I would love to live in a big city like Phily where it is 1.5 hrs away from NY or DC area. I don't know about Ann Arbor, but it looked pretty boring to me when I interviewed there back in October, not to mention the brutal cold winter (I grew up in So-Cal and never left the state)

I have a feeling that majority will say to go to Michigan, however, Penn has been like a dream school for me (yes, Ivy reputation partially plays a role here too)

Thanks,

If you get this, go wherever your heart desires. In the end, you would only be paying 35K more at UPENN ( the 4th year u dont get money from the Navy..correct me if i am wrong) .
 
penn penn penn !!! haha i went there for undergrad, its got a good location/rep etc.
i know nothing about michigan btw, im totally bias & reeppppin for penn 😉
 
If I'm reading correctly, you're considering going to Penn even though it will cost $35,000 more per year to attend?
 
If I'm reading correctly, you're considering going to Penn even though it will cost $35,000 more per year to attend?



No, it'll only set him back 35,000 for that one year that the Navy scholarship doesn't cover.

You should figure out exactly why Penn is your dream school, and if you really think the reasons are worth it, GO!
 
What the OP meant is that he will only incur $35,000 more debt since he will be taking 3-year HPSP with Navy.

OP, just flip the coin. They both are really great programs, can't go wrong with either. If you land on Michigan side, then enjoy the free $35K for Audi A4.

Just my 2 cents.

If I'm reading correctly, you're considering going to Penn even though it will cost $35,000 more per year to attend?
 
I would go to Penn if I were you. If that has always been your dream school, then the $35,000 is worth it.
 
Honestly I wouldn't bank on getting the Navy scholarship. Just because you are going to apply doesn't mean they just hand them out. Personally, I would pick wherever you think you will enjoy being for 4 years before basing it on money. If you do get the Navy scholarship after D1, just know that you will probably lose your 15k departmental scholarship because the Navy pays for everything and Michigan won't want to just give you 15k when your school is paid for.

Good luck with whatever you do!
 
I have to be frank, I don't like Penn. It is expensive and overrated. You will also find, on several measures, that their doctors come out performing worse clinically than from other schools. (Such as a certain rival dental school in the same city that has a worse reputation and shall not be named...but probably turns out better clinicians)

However, if it's your dream, you should go. It's dental school and you have a scholarship. Also, yes, it's in a good area of Philly.
 
$35k (plus interest) is a lot of money. That could be used for a down payment for a home, knocking out a big chunk of dental school loans, or a sweet car. Like someone else said, you're not guaranteed the Navy scholarship. Michigan has a great reputation.

I was actually in a very similar situation a month or so ago, with the cost difference being similar. I stuck with my original decision (the cheaper of the two and the one I had been planning on attending), mainly because of cost and my career goals. I really wanted to go to school #2, but I just couldn't rationalize it, not matter how hard I tried.

Good luck with your decision. You are in an enviable spot, being able to choose from two great schools.
 
Is it really your dream to go to Penn?
Is it also really your dream to work for the Navy (Are you comfortable with this kind of lifestyle?)?
Also did you already win the Navy Scholarship?

If all three of these answers are yes, then Penn.
If the first two are yes and you have not yet gotten the Navy scholarship, I would not risk it and stick with Michigan because then it will be a 35k differencex4.
If the first question is yes and last is yes....really think about things. Will you be miserable in the military? Are you up for that lifestyle and having no control over your location, where/how you work? Is there family involved...fiance etc. etc. 3 years of service is a big commitment and also the year or so you are put on reserves. The Navy is not just free money...remember that you owe something. If you think "wow Penn is such a dream I am going to be so happy for these upcoming four years...but then when you graduate you are miserable for 3 years working for the Navy then it is not worth it...you could be decently happy at Michigan for four years and then be golden to do whatever you want when you graduate.


(I won a Navy scholarship way back when in January, and I thought really hard about it (after talking to some dentists too) and truly felt the military wasn't for me. So I declined it and then eventually decided on my state dental school)

Good Luck with your decision!👍
 
Do what you want to do in that way you not gonna regret at least.



I was set on going to Mich with departmental scholarship worth 15K. Today, however, I've got off from the waiting list of my top choice Penn so I am not sure what to do anymore. Probably no scholarship.

I am planning to take 3 year Navy HPSP, so the cost difference (if I get the scholarship) will be approximately $35,000 / year (Penn is more expensive by this much)

Should I just stay with Michigan or go to my top choice Penn? I am not really interested in specializing, but I would love to live in a big city like Phily where it is 1.5 hrs away from NY or DC area. I don't know about Ann Arbor, but it looked pretty boring to me when I interviewed there back in October, not to mention the brutal cold winter (I grew up in So-Cal and never left the state)

I have a feeling that majority will say to go to Michigan, however, Penn has been like a dream school for me (yes, Ivy reputation partially plays a role here too)

Thanks,
 
If you don't get the military scholarship, that's a big difference to pay back. Mich is a great school wich lots of opportunities and Ann Arbor is a great town to be in
 
Penn is so overrated. I don't know why people think it's such a good dental school based on its Ivy League name.

Good chance you'll need to do a GPR upon graduation.
 
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A friend/classmate of mine (president of my predent club at the university of michigan) chose penn over michigan even though she was an in-stater. She told me she absolutely loved penn when she went and visited it. Not really sure what turned her off from michigan even though she went there for undergrad and worked with some of the faculty and students from the dental school. Also if you got into your dream school why not go there? Not everyone is fortunate enough to get into their #1 schools. Everyone has debt when they come out of dental school anyway. Whatever you decide, best of luck.
 
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I hope people are wise enough to select their schools based on the type of training they will receive instead of the school's name on their diplomas.
 
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A friend/classmate of mine (president of my predent club at the university of michigan) chose penn over michigan even though she was an in-stater. She told me she absolutely loved penn when she went and visited it. Not really sure what turned her off from michigan even though she went there for undergrad and worked with some of the faculty and students from the dental school. Also if you got into your dream school why not go there? Not everyone is fortunate enough to get into their #1 schools. Everyone has debt when they come out of dental school anyway. Whatever you decide, best of luck.

well if I were her, I would've done the same. Basically I would be hesitant to go back to my undergraduate school for professional education. I can't decide yet. I am leaning towards Michigan now granted I don't exactly know why I love Penn so much. Unless I can justify the extra cost (even though it's just 35K) I have weigh in current dentist/dental student's opinions more heavily and that is to go the cheapest school possible.

One thing I have noted with Penn incoming class is that many are from more prestigious undergraduate program (MIT, Penn, Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley) Mich's incoming class due to the fact that UMich has to accept more Michigan residents. I feel like I can stay more motivated and having a connection with these students seem pretty important. Correct me if I'm wrong. The competition is going to be fierce but I believe it is a good thing for me. I am not necessarily saying that the harder school it is the better, however, I am really impressed with the incoming D1 profile at Penn and I would love to be surrounded by these people to learn from them. Just my thought, but I will probably choose Michigan now that the board is going P/F, Michigan actually offers a better opportunities in terms of specialization. Probably the only thing that Mich lacks was the questionable board score which doesn't matter any more.
 
Both great schools. Let us know what you decide and why. Similar situation here.

Are you also deciding between Mich & Penn? or Ivy league school vs your state school?

If that Ivy school is Columbia I would strongly advise against it. With board going p/f, I am not sure the (too) strong didactic curriculum plus the stress are worth the shot.
 
Being an undergrad from michigan and living here all my life, I can tell you if you've never experienced a michigan/midwest winter you're in for a rude awakening. This winter was one of the worst with the amount of snow we received not to mention the subzero temps. Weather aside, Ann Arbor is a nice little college town which I loved for undergrad, but it seems the town is overrun by undergraduates. Graduate students are definitely the minority on campus. Also, if you're looking for more of a big city feel, Ann Arbor is more of a suburban town. Michigans in-state feeder schools are smaller colleges and universities (Central, Western, Oakland) than the two Big Ten schools (Umich and MSU).

Michigan is changing their curriculum, however I'm not exactly sure what they are including/excluding or putting a heavier emphasis on.

Penn obviously has a prestigious reputation which isn't really rivaled outside of Harvard. Also if you are looking to specialize, Penn has some of the highest matching rates for their students with top notch specialty programs. I would assume there is more to do in Philly, however I've never been there other than the ballpark.

Good luck with your decision and keep us updated.
 
So I guess you're that Mich in-stater going to Penn over Mich? I totally understand your point that's why I have been so torn between those two schools since each offers a very different pros and cons.

Personally I am from San Francisco, born and raised, even went to college in the Bay Area. I guess I am more familiar with the big city setting. Yes I have never experienced a sub-zero temperature nor the foot-thick snows. Furthermore, I have a close family member working in NYC, and that puts Penn a huge advantage for me.

I have talked to several D2 at Mich and they are VERY UNHAPPY with the current curriculum change. They just recently got rid of 2-3 months break between D1 & D2 year we probably all guess that it's because the school has spread the load thin over the longer time period. Well that's not the case, instead the school just added more load to stress the students out even more. They all seem to complain that the school isn't really geared toward to do well on the board exam, and there goes the answer to why the questionable board performance of Mich dental students. On top of that the excessive load isn't really helping them to be great dentists. Current students also believe that extra classes that they added seem to be a bunch of bull**** classes where they have to write a lot of essays and irrelevant presentations. I really don't know. The school's philosophy isn't exactly matching to the type of dentistry that I wanted to do.

Not to say that Michigan Dental students aren't as smart, but I can say the Penn students seems way more competitive from top undergraduate institution gunning for specialization in which I am not interested at the moment. However, it doesn't hurt to be friends with future Ortho, OS residents that will be practicing all across the nation, whereas 70% of Michigan DS graduate will most likely to practice IN MICHIGAN where I have NO absolute interest in living any longer than I need to. Yes, I will be practicing back in California, and it is my understanding that Penn name carries more weight when you're trying to find a job against with these UCLA, UCSF graduates especially in the most dentist saturated area in the nation.

Despite those Cons of Mich and Pros of Penn that I listed above, I am still leaning toward Michigan though. 35,000/year is a heck of money. Being a non-traditional students with the background in finances/accounting + 3 years corporate experience as a financial analyst, I do know some money perspectives need to be considered. And to add that the clinical experience at Penn isn't the best experience that I will enjoy. Yes, they are renovating the clinic and construction may well be under the way by the time I start my D3 in 2017. Who knows what they are going to do with the current clinic? Maybe they will all throw us into the temporary mobile RV set up? I don't know.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I am still deciding.

For those who read this thread, please leave your comment even though it is just one line. Any input is greatly appreciated.

Thank You,

Being an undergrad from michigan and living here all my life, I can tell you if you've never experienced a michigan/midwest winter you're in for a rude awakening. This winter was one of the worst with the amount of snow we received not to mention the subzero temps. Weather aside, Ann Arbor is a nice little college town which I loved for undergrad, but it seems the town is overrun by undergraduates. Graduate students are definitely the minority on campus. Also, if you're looking for more of a big city feel, Ann Arbor is more of a suburban town. Michigans in-state feeder schools are smaller colleges and universities (Central, Western, Oakland) than the two Big Ten schools (Umich and MSU).

Michigan is changing their curriculum, however I'm not exactly sure what they are including/excluding or putting a heavier emphasis on.

Penn obviously has a prestigious reputation which isn't really rivaled outside of Harvard. Also if you are looking to specialize, Penn has some of the highest matching rates for their students with top notch specialty programs. I would assume there is more to do in Philly, however I've never been there other than the ballpark.

Good luck with your decision and keep us updated.
 
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You keep saying the difference is only 35k. Does that mean you are definitely taking/won the military scholarship? In your discussions you obviously favor penn....however, have you considered what the 3 years of military service will be like??? (you will most likely not be practicing in the places you want to be practicing in california, and you would probably be far from any major cities as navy bases where you will work aren't in urban areas...)

It seems you are ignoring this in your decision making and just going by the cost difference only being 35k.

Or am i missing something..?
 
Hey Rickblas,

I really appreciate your comment in earlier post. I have NOT won the scholarship. I actually have applied for US Army HPSP 4-year and won it. I had to turn it down due to the fact that the possible 1-year deployment as a brigade dentist. so I am looking into Navy or AF for 3 year. Chances are A LOT higher for 3 years and the major that interviewed with said I will most likely get the scholarship if I keep up the work.

Yes, 3 year at military isn't going to be all rosy as my recruiter make it sound to be. I looked into all of that and that's why I turned down Army Scholarship.

Would I enjoy being in the military? I don't know. But my father was once in the army and my brother is currently in AF as well. They are all served or is serving the minimum 3 years so they can learn and grow personally. Only thing different for me is that I will have that nice extra 200K debts cleared up for me plus the opportunity to do residency without paying a single dime. I am planning to do dentistry for 30 years at least... 3 years are like quarter in the bucket.

My wife is against me joining because she refuses to move in with me. She has her own career set up for success for the next 10 years but she is at least supportive being almost debt free. I've seen so many Navy dentists currently practicing in California and they seem to be more successful and definitely more financially independent than other non-military dentists. Plus, Urban areas are saturated with dentists anyway.

I obviously favor Penn and yes it's my dream school. However, I am not that naive as many cookie-cutter biology undergraduate pre-dents who probably don't have to deal with paying their own bills or paying the mortgage on their own daily basis. I will not be lured into the idea "yes you will eventually pay it off"

well I didn't change my career to dentistry to pay something OFF. Funny thing is if I didn't get into dentistry I would've incurred any debt to begin with other than my current mortgage.

Sorry I jumbled a lot. Anyway, I have to assume that the cost difference between two school is only going to be 35,000 for 4 years. My point is... even that 35,000 difference is still a lot to me. Oh, let's add another 10,000 interest (6.8% unsubsidized) while I'm in school.. yes that's 45,000.

My question really is whether or not Penn offers something over Mich that is worth 45,000. I am not sure.

I really love all your inputs. I greatly appreciate it. I wish to continue to have this constructive conversation with you.

Thank You,


You keep saying the difference is only 35k. Does that mean you are definitely taking/won the military scholarship? In your discussions you obviously favor penn....however, have you considered what the 3 years of military service will be like??? (you will most likely not be practicing in the places you want to be practicing in california, and you would probably be far from any major cities as navy bases where you will work aren't in urban areas...)

It seems you are ignoring this in your decision making and just going by the cost difference only being 35k.

Or am i missing something..?
 
$45,000 of debt once you graduate dental school? That is nothing especially since you get paid a nice sum (~$75,000) once you work for the navy. I was also thinking about that scholarship, but I am still a little skeptical since it all seems too good to be true.

It really seems your heart is at Penn while your head is at Michigan, however worrying about $45,000 once you graduate is nothing compared to most dental students.

So I leave you with this last piece of advice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktRsl2hAPhY
 
Yeah but the dilemma here is that there is also a chance I won't get the scholarship which puts me in a very situation. (then I am looking at ... 35K x 4 = 140,000 plus interest)😱😱😱

$45,000 of debt once you graduate dental school? That is nothing especially since you get paid a nice sum (~$75,000) once you work for the navy. I was also thinking about that scholarship, but I am still a little skeptical since it all seems too good to be true.

It really seems your heart is at Penn while your head is at Michigan, however worrying about $45,000 once you graduate is nothing compared to most dental students.

So I leave you with this last piece of advice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktRsl2hAPhY
 
Yeah but the dilemma here is that there is also a chance I won't get the scholarship which puts me in a very situation. (then I am looking at ... 35K x 4 = 140,000 plus interest)😱😱😱


Thats no small amount of money. How long do you have to decide?
 
Thats no small amount of money. How long do you have to decide?

Hey, I've run some number using excel (please see attached file). By the time I graduate from Penn I will incur approximately $383,178 assuming that I will get the maximum amount of need-based grant & need-based loan (health professional loan) every year. However, I am not even sure if this is likely but I will have to wait till next week when the financial aid lady comes back to me with the better estimate of how much I will be receiving. I am expecting this number to slightly go up if I don't get the maximum aid. I did the same calculation for Michigan and it turned out to be around $240,796. That's about $142K difference if I don't take the HPSP scholarship next year and just stomach the 4 year tuition solely with loans.

Let's say I amortized this loan amount over 20 years (assuming I don't consolidate all the different loans). For Penn I will be paying $2,815 per month and end up paying $675,726, but it's unlikely since I feel like I can pay it back sooner than 20 years.

On the other hand, for Michigan, I will approximately owe $1,715 per month and I will end up paying $411,605 over 20 years span. That's $1,100 less payment per month and $267,101 less payment in total just by going to Michigan over Penn. Amortized over 30 years??? the gap gets even bigger.

Now to the interesting part of the calculation. Let's say I do get the Navy 3 year scholarship next year. The difference between 1 year tuition by the time I graduate will be $35,632 (Penn --> $54,133 & Mich --> $18,500). If I amortized the payment over 5 years the difference is going to be $45,414.

45K may sound a lot or not at all. But it's definitely something to think about...
 

Attachments

Hey, I've run some number using excel (please see attached file). By the time I graduate from Penn I will incur approximately $383,178 assuming that I will get the maximum amount of need-based grant & need-based loan (health professional loan) every year. However, I am not even sure if this is likely but I will have to wait till next week when the financial aid lady comes back to me with the better estimate of how much I will be receiving. I am expecting this number to slightly go up if I don't get the maximum aid. I did the same calculation for Michigan and it turned out to be around $240,796. That's about $142K difference if I don't take the HPSP scholarship next year and just stomach the 4 year tuition solely with loans.

Let's say I amortized this loan amount over 20 years (assuming I don't consolidate all the different loans). For Penn I will be paying $2,815 per month and end up paying $675,726, but it's unlikely since I feel like I can pay it back sooner than 20 years.

On the other hand, for Michigan, I will approximately owe $1,715 per month and I will end up paying $411,605 over 20 years span. That's $1,100 less payment per month and $267,101 less payment in total just by going to Michigan over Penn. Amortized over 30 years??? the gap gets even bigger.

Now to the interesting part of the calculation. Let's say I do get the Navy 3 year scholarship next year. The difference between 1 year tuition by the time I graduate will be $35,632 (Penn --> $54,133 & Mich --> $18,500). If I amortized the payment over 5 years the difference is going to be $45,414.

45K may sound a lot or not at all. But it's definitely something to think about...

There are your answers. You'll be a great dentist whether you go to Michigan or Penn, but you'll sleep a lot easier at night knowing that you have an extra $45k or $142k in your pocket.
 
There are your answers. You'll be a great dentist whether you go to Michigan or Penn, but you'll sleep a lot easier at night knowing that you have an extra $45k or $142k in your pocket.

Yeah.
 
Going to Penn state gives you bragging rights.
 
lol only Canadians...
I didn't realize they're diff schools. Thanks =P
 
Do that many people confuse Penn with Penn State? Just curious...

In the average setting amongst regular people, yes it is pretty common. Even up hear in the northeast....many people confuse to two. (when I was going to Penn, I always said the full name or Upenn so people won't get confused...and people still would get confused).

"Educated" people will always know the difference...there are many threads on this if you want to do a search and such.
 
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