Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

[Dartmouth2005]

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It appears Prop 2 which ended consideration of race in college admissions was struck down in Michigan as unconstitutional. I wonder if this will have any effect on admissions for people applying to Michigan medical schools this year.

"Michigan's ban on considering race and gender in college admissions was struck down Friday by a federal appeals court, which ruled that the voter-approved law burdens minorities and is unconstitutional." See http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/01/nation/la-na-michigan-ban-20110702

 

[235788]

Without a doubt. I doubt URMs will be given a great boost. I bet with time more states will follow suit. Affirmative action is not as necessary anymore since everyone has access to college.

 

[aSagacious]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I've been following this case for a number of years and I'm fairly certain that this is of concern only to the undergraduate admissions at UofM, as they were the ones who employed the point system that incorporated race (whereas the medical school never made any claims to using a similar approach).

 

[gettheleadout]

Affirmative action =/= URM advantage as it applies to medical school admissions.

 

[Onres]

Without a doubt. I doubt URMs will be given a great boost. I bet with time more states will follow suit. Affirmative action is not as necessary anymore since everyone has access to college.

That's an overstatement.

 

[AZFutureDoc]

AA doesn't really even help the people it aims for. It just helps rich minorities.

 

[Dartmouth2005]

AA doesn't really even help the people it aims for. It just helps rich minorities.

Sadly, there is some truth to this at least for Indians.

I have seen the Indians with more money (and usually a low or questionable blood quantum) take advantage of their status far more than poorer (and usually darker) Indians.

I've also seen wealthy AA take advantage of minority admissions programs for law and for law placement. If your dad is a wealthy lawyer, then why the hell do you need the help getting a job?

 

[Dartmouth2005]

That's an overstatement.

Agree. Ilton, congrats btw. Hanover is awesome.

 

[Whiskeypunch]

.

 

[gettheleadout]

Anyone can get into a community college. Anyone can take out student loans.

You're assuming everyone knows how or knows that that's even a worthy stepping stone. Yes, I'm serious.

 

[Soulstice]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I've been following this case for a number of years and I'm fairly certain that this is of concern only to the undergraduate admissions at UofM, as they were the ones who employed the point system that incorporated race (whereas the medical school never made any claims to using a similar approach).

Right. The points system was taken off the table because it gave a specific points value to URM status, but it's NOT unconstitutional to broadly and holistically consider URM status as part of a general set of factors that constitute an applicant.

Constitutional interpretation is screwy in some sense, but that's how it plays out there.

 

[V5RED]

You're assuming everyone knows how or knows that that's even a worthy stepping stone. Yes, I'm serious.

Agreed. Also, not everybody has someone to cosign the MPN.

 

[Whiskeypunch]

.

 

[Whiskeypunch]

.

 

[aSagacious]

Right. The points system was taken off the table because it gave a specific points value to URM status, but it's NOT unconstitutional to broadly and holistically consider URM status as part of a general set of factors that constitute an applicant.

Constitutional interpretation is screwy in some sense, but that's how it plays out there.

Correct. On a side note, the case specified in the article above dictates an interesting premise. The thought is that despite a popular vote banning AA, legislation protecting the interest of a minority group is inherently vulnerable to popular votes (for obvious reasons) and thus it is unconstitutional to subject these bills to a popular vote.

 

[Longshanks]

Without a doubt. I doubt URMs will be given a great boost. I bet with time more states will follow suit. Affirmative action is not as necessary anymore since everyone has access to college.

Not everyone has access to college. "Affirmative action" should be an instrument of supporting those coming from a lower socio-economic background, more so than just race. However, in America race is generally linked with lower socio-economic status.

Affirmative action is just as necessary now as before, but it needs to be focused on economic history rather than race alone.

 

[gettheleadout]

They really should. And, judging by my local CC, they do know. The student body was very diverse. Lot of impoverished Latin American immigrants with minimal English skills, etc.

What should be the case is not necessarily reality, despite your n=1 experience. 🙄

 

[V5RED]

You don't need anyone to cosign for government loans.

I had to have someone cosign to get my financial aid.

Edit: I guess they were references, not cosigners. Still you need someone to put on there.

 

[CodeBlu]

Not everyone has access to college. "Affirmative action" should be an instrument of supporting those coming from a lower socio-economic background, more so than just race. However, in America race is generally linked with lower socio-economic status.

Affirmative action is just as necessary now as before, but it needs to be focused on economic history rather than race alone.

Unfortunately I completely disagree with you. Affirmative action is controlled racism.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWS_MDJSiEE[/YOUTUBE]

The best way to achieve equality? Lower socio-economic status?

People can and will have contempt for people that get into professional school, college or a job because of the color of their skin.

No one will deny that when you look at AMCAS Facts, the mean MCAT score is 26.6 for african american matriculants.

For white matriculants it was 31.5...

The GPA mean for black matriculants is 3.46, and for white matriculants, 3.71.

Now, while I understand and appreciate the need for URMs in medicine, I disagree with the... "Oh, you're white, therefore we have to hold you to a higher standard". This violates the constitution and basically denigrates everything America stands for.

I have a few friends that have not declared their URM status, and I said "WHY!!! YOU'RE AN IDIOT! That's a shoe in for an interview at least with your stats". Their responses were admirable... (not saying that those who choose to apply URM are not admirable)... "We don't want to feel like we got into medical school because someone else put us there, we want to get in of our own accord."

I am from Michigan, and I recognize the need for physicians in minority communities. But it's going to take a lot more than that just to "fix" the problem.

I have witnessed the following story, live, in an ER a few years ago. Let me paint the picture...

Winter morning, African american gentleman was shoveling snow in his driveway and began experiencing chest pain. Took his nitroglycerin and stopped working. Pain got worse, he proceeded to the ED. The attending was a white 35 year old male. The resident in the situation was a 31 year old PGY-2 (he'd been around the block in the ED and in Detroit and knew what was up). Resident works up the patient after initial contact with the attending. Shortly thereafter, the patient asks to speak with the attending... his exact words were "I don't want that resident touching me. I want the white doctor" (Did I mention the resident was black?) There is no such thing as reverse racism, that just plain old racism.

I am not saying that kiboshing affirmative action is the answer. But I am saying that what we're doing clearly needs to CHANGE, because it's not helping anyone.

In an episode of Dr. House (with those who worship the series along with me), Foreman and House both see a patient in the clinic and is put on a BP medication that is designed for his African American predispositions etc. Yet, the guy wants the "white man drugs". Yes, there have been horrible atrocities committed from DAY 1 that white man violated the beautiful continent of Africa, and then left it in a state of disarray. Slavery and the like are DISGUSTING.

But the solution is definitely not what we've been doing, time to revamp the system and LEARN from our mistakes.

Edit: I started ranting, and didn't even make my point complete. Economic history? That's not going to help either! If your parents supported you for your undergraduate and do not claim you as a dependent, then you can pretty much say that you're estranged from your parents or they didn't contribute to your education. Once again, there's a failure in a good system. Oh and then we would be discriminating based on finances. You're rich, you can't go to medical school. Sounds like a farce to me. Just like how my black friends with 3.6s and 32s applied URM, and live in a McMansion and drive a 40K dollar imported car. Thing is, we joke about how they're going to get in for sure, and they're OK with it. Affirmative action clearly works wonders.


source for AMCAS data: https://www.aamc.org/download/161696/data/table19-mcatgpa-raceeth-2010-web.pdf.pdf

 

[IlDestriero]

I'm about as far from disadvantaged and discriminated against as you can get, and even I recognize that the economically disadvantaged need all the help they can get. Their let down from day one, and it never lets up. My kids go to school with plenty of minorities, however their parents also happen to be doctors, lawyers and professional athletes. The minorities that I pass on my way to work in the city are lucky to graduate from high school. 99% of the kids my children go to school with go to college. I'd bet the low income ciry schools dont send 9.9% of those that start high school. I'm for any program that will help them get a fair chance at the American dream and breaking the cycle of poverty. If that means that they go to Stanford on a free ride and you can't get into UCLA and have to pay the man at USC that's the way it goes.

 

[CodeBlu]

I'm about as far from disadvantaged and discriminated against as you can get, and even I recognize that the economically disadvantaged need all the help they can get. Their let down from day one, and it never lets up. My kids go to school with plenty of minorities, however their parents also happen to be doctors, lawyers and professional athletes. The minorities that I pass on my way to work in the city are lucky to graduate from high school. 99% of the kids my children go to school with go to college. I'd bet the low income ciry schools dont send 9.9% of those that start high school. I'm for any program that will help them get a fair chance at the American dream and breaking the cycle of poverty. If that means that they go to Stanford on a free ride and you can't get into UCLA and have to pay the man at USC that's the way it goes.

Veritas.

 

[NickNaylor]

I think most people agree with the fundamental premise of AA programs (attempting to undo the harm of government-imposed racial segregation) and would support that purpose. I think most people that don't support AA programs - myself included - believe that programs as they exist now are poorly implemented and are too broad, which creates the perception that they're unfair. I think programs should be careful to ensure that they stick to their original purpose rather than morphing into something much larger than they started as.

I'm very much a proponent of merit-based advancement and imposing individual responsibility, but you're ignorant if you think that 60 years is enough time for government-sanctioned racism to be cured and for individuals to overcome those obstacles. Frankly none of us can relate to those circumstances because we're so far removed from them that they seem like some kind of joke.

 

[aSagacious]

I think most people that don't support AA programs - myself included - believe that programs as they exist now are poorly implemented and are too broad, which creates the perception that they're unfair.

I would like to take this opportunity to expand this statement to cover all social programs after the 1950's. (See: food stamps, social security, medicaid, section 8 housing, etc, etc).

 

[CodeBlu]

I would like to take this opportunity to expand this statement to cover all social programs after the 1950's. (See: food stamps, social security, medicaid, section 8 housing, etc, etc).

Food stamps are what kill me. My mother was an immigrant with zero money. She sometimes couldn't buy milk for her children! She wasn't given food stamps. She worked her tail off, and earned her money.

America is breeding apathetic, lazy individuals.

 

[Longshanks]

Unfortunately I completely disagree with you. Affirmative action is controlled racism.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWS_MDJSiEE[/YOUTUBE]

The best way to achieve equality? Lower socio-economic status?

People can and will have contempt for people that get into professional school, college or a job because of the color of their skin.

No one will deny that when you look at AMCAS Facts, the mean MCAT score is 26.6 for african american matriculants.

For white matriculants it was 31.5...

The GPA mean for black matriculants is 3.46, and for white matriculants, 3.71.

Now, while I understand and appreciate the need for URMs in medicine, I disagree with the... "Oh, you're white, therefore we have to hold you to a higher standard". This violates the constitution and basically denigrates everything America stands for.

I have a few friends that have not declared their URM status, and I said "WHY!!! YOU'RE AN IDIOT! That's a shoe in for an interview at least with your stats". Their responses were admirable... (not saying that those who choose to apply URM are not admirable)... "We don't want to feel like we got into medical school because someone else put us there, we want to get in of our own accord."

I am from Michigan, and I recognize the need for physicians in minority communities. But it's going to take a lot more than that just to "fix" the problem.

I have witnessed the following story, live, in an ER a few years ago. Let me paint the picture...

Winter morning, African american gentleman was shoveling snow in his driveway and began experiencing chest pain. Took his nitroglycerin and stopped working. Pain got worse, he proceeded to the ED. The attending was a white 35 year old male. The resident in the situation was a 31 year old PGY-2 (he'd been around the block in the ED and in Detroit and knew what was up). Resident works up the patient after initial contact with the attending. Shortly thereafter, the patient asks to speak with the attending... his exact words were "I don't want that resident touching me. I want the white doctor" (Did I mention the resident was black?) There is no such thing as reverse racism, that just plain old racism.

I am not saying that kiboshing affirmative action is the answer. But I am saying that what we're doing clearly needs to CHANGE, because it's not helping anyone.

In an episode of Dr. House (with those who worship the series along with me), Foreman and House both see a patient in the clinic and is put on a BP medication that is designed for his African American predispositions etc. Yet, the guy wants the "white man drugs". Yes, there have been horrible atrocities committed from DAY 1 that white man violated the beautiful continent of Africa, and then left it in a state of disarray. Slavery and the like are DISGUSTING.

But the solution is definitely not what we've been doing, time to revamp the system and LEARN from our mistakes.

Edit: I started ranting, and didn't even make my point complete. Economic history? That's not going to help either! If your parents supported you for your undergraduate and do not claim you as a dependent, then you can pretty much say that you're estranged from your parents or they didn't contribute to your education. Once again, there's a failure in a good system. Oh and then we would be discriminating based on finances. You're rich, you can't go to medical school. Sounds like a farce to me. Just like how my black friends with 3.6s and 32s applied URM, and live in a McMansion and drive a 40K dollar imported car. Thing is, we joke about how they're going to get in for sure, and they're OK with it. Affirmative action clearly works wonders.


source for AMCAS data: https://www.aamc.org/download/161696/data/table19-mcatgpa-raceeth-2010-web.pdf.pdf

I'm traveling and can't respond to such a post at this time but a quick tl;dr reply: this has nothing to do with race - it's about opening opportunity for those with less resources and greater hardships while growing up.

 

[Longshanks]

I would like to take this opportunity to expand this statement to cover all social programs after the 1950's. (See: food stamps, social security, medicaid, section 8 housing, etc, etc).

Hey there's an Ayn Rand convention you might want to attend. I hear they have great kool-aid, something about a special ingredient (and no it's not disdain for humanity or unrestrained selfishness).

 

[aSagacious]

Hey there's an Ayn Rand convention you might want to attend. I hear they have great kool-aid, something about a special ingredient (and no it's not disdain for humanity or unrestrained selfishness).

I suppose you didn't bother to read Nick's post then? I am wholeheartedly in favor of these programs in principle. However, in practice they are so inefficient and abused that they tend to lose support from the public. (...you can take your smug, self-righteous attitude elsewhere).

 

[gettheleadout]

Hey there's an Ayn Rand convention you might want to attend. I hear they have great kool-aid, something about a special ingredient (and no it's not disdain for humanity or unrestrained selfishness).

Oooooh burrrrrrn.

The idea behind URM classification for medical school admissions isn't some form of reparations for past/current discrimination or anything affirmative action-like of that sort, it's merely a means to achieve an equally representative physician population relative to the patient population. It's undeniable that racial bias is inherent in the patient population when they have to decide whether to go see/listen to/trust/follow the directions of a doctor, so a physician population with similar ethnic proportions as the patient population is in the better interest of public health.

 

[aSagacious]

The idea behind URM classification for medical school admissions isn't some form of reparations for past/current discrimination or anything affirmative action-like of that sort, it's merely a means to achieve an equally representative physician population relative to the patient population. It's undeniable that racial bias is inherent in the patient population when they have to decide whether to go see/listen to/trust/follow the directions of a doctor, so a physician population with similar ethnic proportions as the patient population is in the better interest of public health.

Agreed. 🙂

Affirmative action =/= URM advantage as it applies to medical school admissions.

 

[235788]

Unfortunately I completely disagree with you. Affirmative action is controlled racism.

[YOUTUBE]hWS_MDJSiEE[/YOUTUBE]

The best way to achieve equality? Lower socio-economic status?

People can and will have contempt for people that get into professional school, college or a job because of the color of their skin.

No one will deny that when you look at AMCAS Facts, the mean MCAT score is 26.6 for african american matriculants.

For white matriculants it was 31.5...

The GPA mean for black matriculants is 3.46, and for white matriculants, 3.71.

Now, while I understand and appreciate the need for URMs in medicine, I disagree with the... "Oh, you're white, therefore we have to hold you to a higher standard". This violates the constitution and basically denigrates everything America stands for.

I have a few friends that have not declared their URM status, and I said "WHY!!! YOU'RE AN IDIOT! That's a shoe in for an interview at least with your stats". Their responses were admirable... (not saying that those who choose to apply URM are not admirable)... "We don't want to feel like we got into medical school because someone else put us there, we want to get in of our own accord."

I am from Michigan, and I recognize the need for physicians in minority communities. But it's going to take a lot more than that just to "fix" the problem.

I have witnessed the following story, live, in an ER a few years ago. Let me paint the picture...

Winter morning, African american gentleman was shoveling snow in his driveway and began experiencing chest pain. Took his nitroglycerin and stopped working. Pain got worse, he proceeded to the ED. The attending was a white 35 year old male. The resident in the situation was a 31 year old PGY-2 (he'd been around the block in the ED and in Detroit and knew what was up). Resident works up the patient after initial contact with the attending. Shortly thereafter, the patient asks to speak with the attending... his exact words were "I don't want that resident touching me. I want the white doctor" (Did I mention the resident was black?) There is no such thing as reverse racism, that just plain old racism.

I am not saying that kiboshing affirmative action is the answer. But I am saying that what we're doing clearly needs to CHANGE, because it's not helping anyone.

In an episode of Dr. House (with those who worship the series along with me), Foreman and House both see a patient in the clinic and is put on a BP medication that is designed for his African American predispositions etc. Yet, the guy wants the "white man drugs". Yes, there have been horrible atrocities committed from DAY 1 that white man violated the beautiful continent of Africa, and then left it in a state of disarray. Slavery and the like are DISGUSTING.

But the solution is definitely not what we've been doing, time to revamp the system and LEARN from our mistakes.

Edit: I started ranting, and didn't even make my point complete. Economic history? That's not going to help either! If your parents supported you for your undergraduate and do not claim you as a dependent, then you can pretty much say that you're estranged from your parents or they didn't contribute to your education. Once again, there's a failure in a good system. Oh and then we would be discriminating based on finances. You're rich, you can't go to medical school. Sounds like a farce to me. Just like how my black friends with 3.6s and 32s applied URM, and live in a McMansion and drive a 40K dollar imported car. Thing is, we joke about how they're going to get in for sure, and they're OK with it. Affirmative action clearly works wonders.


source for AMCAS data: https://www.aamc.org/download/161696/data/table19-mcatgpa-raceeth-2010-web.pdf.pdf

👍👍👍👍 I think the biggest loser is middle class!

 

[235788]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qYc8G5DDv4&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

^^ needs based > race

 

[Astarael]

Anyone can get into a community college. Anyone can take out student loans.

Unfortunately, this is not true. There are economic barriers to education that have nothing to do with the money that you have to pay for it. Take, for example, a person who works full time at McDonalds and has another part time job on top of it to pay for their family. That person would never have the ability to go to community college, whether they can get loans or not.

The sad fact of the matter is that under a certain income threshold, it is very, very difficult to improve your situation, no matter what resources are available to you. Sometimes that's the fault of the individual and sometimes it's the fault of the system.

 

[gettheleadout]

Unfortunately, this is not true. There are economic barriers to education that have nothing to do with the money that you have to pay for it. Take, for example, a person who works full time at McDonalds and has another part time job on top of it to pay for their family. That person would never have the ability to go to community college, whether they can get loans or not.

The sad fact of the matter is that under a certain income threshold, it is very, very difficult to improve your situation, no matter what resources are available to you. Sometimes that's the fault of the individual and sometimes it's the fault of the system.

I instantly thought of this: 5 Things Nobody Tells You About Being Poor

 

[Astarael]

I instantly thought of this: 5 Things Nobody Tells You About Being Poor

I love Cracked articles. That one makes my point exactly. Thanks for linking it 👍

 

[Onres]

You're assuming everyone knows how or knows that that's even a worthy stepping stone. Yes, I'm serious.

Yes, exactly. It's in an ideal world that everyone has access to college but that's not reality.

 

[Onres]

Agree. Ilton, congrats btw. Hanover is awesome.

Thank you, and good luck!

 

[Velocity]

Food stamps are what kill me. My mother was an immigrant with zero money. She sometimes couldn't buy milk for her children! She wasn't given food stamps. She worked her tail off, and earned her money.

America is breeding apathetic, lazy individuals.

The social support programs have the potential to do a lot of good for a lot of people. The problem is that a lot of people will take advantage of them and use them in ways that they weren't necessarily intended.

Take food stamps as an example. In New York City (and probably elsewhere), food stamps are advertised as being a way to help you to buy healthy foods for yourself and your family. Fresh fruits and vegetables (among other produce) aren't exactly cheap, especially not in the city, so this is supposed to be a way to help with that.

My wife and I (both students, currently averaging a grocery bill of $30-40 per week for the two of us - big time sale shoppers here, eat out at cheap restaurants 2-4 times per year) liked the idea of having help with being able to afford fruits and vegetables, and applied for food stamps. We went through the long process and government applications, and were denied on the grounds that neither of us are working (being a full-time student at the graduate level doesn't count). Fair enough, we have loans and limited parental support, and we're not in danger of living on the street. Yet around that time, we began to notice other food stamp users at our grocery store. Interestingly, they often seemed to be buying frozen dinners and loads of junk food... it's not exactly cost-efficient, let alone healthy. (I'm sure there are food stamp users out there who do budget properly and try to use the extra money to buy healthy food options, but I'd be surprised if they weren't in the minority.)

I like the concept of the social support programs, but feel that something should be done to change the way that they work. I don't like the idea that people feel entitled to them - they should be thankful that they receive the support, but try to get off of it as soon as possible. Yet perhaps that's just human nature? I mean, if you can get money from the government for free, you'd be stupid not to, right?

 

[CodeBlu]

The social support programs have the potential to do a lot of good for a lot of people. The problem is that a lot of people will take advantage of them and use them in ways that they weren't necessarily intended.

Take food stamps as an example. In New York City (and probably elsewhere), food stamps are advertised as being a way to help you to buy healthy foods for yourself and your family. Fresh fruits and vegetables (among other produce) aren't exactly cheap, especially not in the city, so this is supposed to be a way to help with that.

My wife and I (both students, currently averaging a grocery bill of $30-40 per week for the two of us - big time sale shoppers here, eat out at cheap restaurants 2-4 times per year) liked the idea of having help with being able to afford fruits and vegetables, and applied for food stamps. We went through the long process and government applications, and were denied on the grounds that neither of us are working (being a full-time student at the graduate level doesn't count). Fair enough, we have loans and limited parental support, and we're not in danger of living on the street. Yet around that time, we began to notice other food stamp users at our grocery store. Interestingly, they often seemed to be buying frozen dinners and loads of junk food... it's not exactly cost-efficient, let alone healthy. (I'm sure there are food stamp users out there who do budget properly and try to use the extra money to buy healthy food options, but I'd be surprised if they weren't in the minority.)

I like the concept of the social support programs, but feel that something should be done to change the way that they work. I don't like the idea that people feel entitled to them - they should be thankful that they receive the support, but try to get off of it as soon as possible. Yet perhaps that's just human nature? I mean, if you can get money from the government for free, you'd be stupid not to, right?

Sure, you'd be stupid. But if you forwent taking that free money, you would be saving that money for something that could actually benefit your life in a bigger way. For example, if we stopped paying property taxes, and started into vaulting our money, we would end up like Greece is right now. Free money is great for the first little while, after a bit though, someone has to pick up the slack. The guy who has millions of dollars and is performing tax evasion, is actually hurting his income. Why? Because inflation will result in outrageous prices, which decrease the value of his dollar.

Also, food stamps should not be allowed to be spent on not nutritious foods (certainly not TV dinners).

 

[Narmerguy]

SEC is not the grab-all many here apparently want it to think. Race still has very real implications on many things like job attainment, housing, wages, education, etc even when we control for things like SEC. Try reading up on some of literature on things like healthcare disparities and job gaps before making statements about what kind of policies should and should not be terminated.

There's a lot of research that goes on about this (important to remember that our day to day experiences and interactions are not necessarily illustrative of the greater reality) and most of the people that study this for a living are quite clear on the tangible impacts race has on various institutions like education, jobs, etc.

Finally, URM in medicine is not actually an AA policy but rather a policy founded on the idea that a more diverse physician population is required to adequately tend to the needs of our rather diverse patient-base. Seriously guys, discussing this stuff is cool and informative (occasionally) but actually take some time to read and educate yourself about what you're talking about before making sweeping judgments about entire racial groups/educational policies.

 

[Astarael]

Also, food stamps should not be allowed to be spent on not nutritious foods (certainly not TV dinners).

This just gets back to what I was talking about earlier. Yeah, we'd all love for food stamps to be used on only healthy food. But if you're poor, and you're a responsible person, you might not have just one job. You might have two, or even three. You might be a single parent, trying to do all that. Who has time to cook when all of that is going on? Eating in a healthy way takes both time and money. There's more than one reason why people from a disadvantaged socioeconomic background eat in an unhealthy manner.

 

[CodeBlu]

This just gets back to what I was talking about earlier. Yeah, we'd all love for food stamps to be used on only healthy food. But if you're poor, and you're a responsible person, you might not have just one job. You might have two, or even three. You might be a single parent, trying to do all that. Who has time to cook when all of that is going on? Eating in a healthy way takes both time and money. There's more than one reason why people from a disadvantaged socioeconomic background eat in an unhealthy manner.

Sure! It's the social determinants of health. But, you have to WANT to change. Some people are just content with living the way they are. The government's gonna pay.

 

[Astarael]

Sure! It's the social determinants of health. But, you have to WANT to change. Some people are just content with living the way they are. The government's gonna pay.

So true.

 

[brandonh4]

I love these kinds of discussions. It means we've run out of real problems...

Yay!

 

[Velocity]

Who has time to cook when all of that is going on?

I've got this one. Here's the answer: slow cookers.

My wife is a medical student, and until recently I was spending long hours in the lab as a graduate student. While I'm sure we had more time than many people (particularly since we don't have children), we don't have an abundance of time to make fancy food. A slow cooker requires a bit of advance planning (food usually isn't ready for 8-10 hours), but you just drop all of your ingredients into it - meat (doesn't need to be cut up), vegetables, etc. and let it go. We would set it to run overnight or start it in the morning before we went about our daily activities. It's fantastic.

There are solutions, but it's as CodeBlue wrote: you have to want to change, and change is never easy. Especially if someone else is providing money so that you don't have to.

 

[Astarael]

I've got this one. Here's the answer: slow cookers.

My wife is a medical student, and until recently I was spending long hours in the lab as a graduate student. While I'm sure we had more time than many people (particularly since we don't have children), we don't have an abundance of time to make fancy food. A slow cooker requires a bit of advance planning (food usually isn't ready for 8-10 hours), but you just drop all of your ingredients into it - meat (doesn't need to be cut up), vegetables, etc. and let it go. We would set it to run overnight or start it in the morning before we went about our daily activities. It's fantastic.

There are solutions, but it's as CodeBlue wrote: you have to want to change, and change is never easy. Especially if someone else is providing money so that you don't have to.

Yeah. You're right of course. All I'm really say is that I understand why it is difficult for people.

 

[macsta]

I think most people agree with the fundamental premise of AA programs (attempting to undo the harm of government-imposed racial segregation) and would support that purpose. I think most people that don't support AA programs - myself included - believe that programs as they exist now are poorly implemented and are too broad, which creates the perception that they're unfair. I think programs should be careful to ensure that they stick to their original purpose rather than morphing into something much larger than they started as.

I'm very much a proponent of merit-based advancement and imposing individual responsibility, but you're ignorant if you think that 60 years is enough time for government-sanctioned racism to be cured and for individuals to overcome those obstacles. Frankly none of us can relate to those circumstances because we're so far removed from them that they seem like some kind of joke.

ya mon.

For the individuals that think "everyone is equal", I suggest you get off your suburbanite ass and travel a little. I actually used to agree with you. However, now I work this individuals (mostly African Americans) from the south side of Chicago every week. It is OBVIOUS that actions from slavery era are still being felt (albeit indirectly). I think that AA should help the lowest of the low that wouldn't otherwise have opportunities. Not some wealthy minority trying to have a leg up on his peers.

FYI food stamps and government aid ≠ AA.

 

[Velocity]

However, now I work this individuals (mostly African Americans) from the south side of Chicago every week. It is OBVIOUS that actions from slavery era are still being felt (albeit indirectly).

How so? (Not that I'm looking to disagree - I'm genuinely curious about what you've observed that seems to be an obvious link to past actions.)

 

[Astarael]

Here's some food for thought, for anyone who hasn't heard of institutionalized racism yet:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW764dXEI_8[/YOUTUBE]

 

[SilentSoldier]

Sure! It's the social determinants of health. But, you have to WANT to change. Some people are just content with living the way they are. The government's gonna pay.

Sure, people can want to change, but there's also the deal of the capacity to do so. For a lot of people out there, the situation may not warrant a better solution to their problem other than food stamps. Its sad, but its a reality.