Michigan and Northwestern Residency Matching

[k-kidmed]

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I have to choose between attending Northwestern and Michigan for my undergraduate medical education. I am wondering, does anyone out there have first-hand (preferable) or second hand experience on how many people are able to match where they want to go? I am leaning toward Michigan but probably will have to match in the East, likely NYC. Which is school id better for competitive marching? A ton of UMich grads seem to stay in Mich, is that because they want to or have to? If you are a fourth-year, were you able to match in the city you wanted to match in? For non-fourth years, what have you heard or know?

Thanks a lot.

 

[elias514]

I'm a non-fourth year (an incoming M1 actually) and I've learned a lot about Michigan over the past 6 months or so from talking with current students and doing some research on the web. The gist of what I've learned regarding Michigan is that you can't walk in there with a silver platter mentality--i.e., with the mindset that you're assured a spot in a prestigious residency program by virtue of Michigan's outstanding reputation per se. I think most students at Michigan would agree with the statement that if you do well at Michigan you'll be competitive for any residency you desire (and highly competitive in the Midwest, where Michigan's clout is greatest). Now, what exactly is meant by the term "well" is subject to debate--top quartile, top third, top half of class?--but it certainly doesn't mean just scraping by with passes. Michigan isn't Hopkins or Harvard, even though its US News ranking is only few spots below the two H's.

That said, Michigan grads do land some very choice residencies in a wide variety of specialties, including the most competitive ones. The beauty of Michigan is that pretty much every department is strong, with medicine and the surgical subspecialties being exceptionally so (in particular, you should investigate the anesthesiology, dermatology, internal medicine, general surgery, opthalmology, otolaryngology, radiology, radiation oncology, and urology departments. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by what you find). This fact can translate into some awesome letters of recommendation from individuals who are gods in their respective fields. But the presence of nationally and internationally renowned physicians (e.g., Dr. Bove in pediatric surgery) doesn't mean that everyone gets letters from these guys; you have to be assertive up there. Golden opportunities--be they letters of recommendation from hot shots in a particular field or chances to do a lot of cool stuff on the wards--are not handed to students on a silver platter.


The bottom line is that if you're assertive and you bust ass at Michigan, you can get into some ridiculously competitive residency programs. This year alone, 4/5 ENT matches were at top 10 programs; 3/5 opthalmology matches were at top 10 and one match is at a place that is on the verge of merging with the elite programs in the country (UC Davis); 4/4 radiation oncology matches were at elite programs and there are plenty of other top-tier matches in the other specialties. A couple years ago, there were 12 opthalmology matches, 7 of which were at top-tier programs. The anesthesiology, emergency medicine, and internal medicine matches are consistently outstanding.

The fact that a lot of Michigan grads stay at U Mich for residency each year is a slight distortion of the facts and IMHO nothing to be concerned about. This year I think only 20% of the graduating class is committing institutional incest by sticking around for residency. With such great residency programs, it must be awfully tempting for grads to stick around. Plus many current students tell me that Ann Arbor is kind of like quicksand, once you live there for a while it's hard to leave it. Ann Arbor is supposed to be a great place to live and raise a family, so you can't blame students for wanting to stick around. Having grown up in the Midwest, I'm not sure that I'll want to attend a high-powered residency program in the NE because the culture and pace of life is so different up there. People in the NE tend to be very curt and impatient--a stereotype I know, but one that seems to be more true than not based on my own acquaintances from that region of the country. I'm not sure if this mentality explains the tendency of Michigan grads to stay in the Midwest and U Mich in particular, but I strongly suspect that it's a factor (50% of the entering class each year is composed of Michigan residents).

As for the matching in NYC issue, you're probably no better off attending either school. With the exception of a handful of programs (Harvard, Hopkins, Duke, Yale, and a few others) that truly have national clout, there seems to be a definite regional bias in residency matching.

Sorry about the long post. It just reflects the fact that I'm a curious bastard when it comes to my future med school and career. My best advice is just to go where you'll be happy, because you can't go wrong here. Two great choices in great locations. Hope to see you in Ann Arbor this fall and, of course, GO BLUE!

 

[Gleevec]

Im not a fourth year either, but Ive read up on both schools either because I applied or a friend is very interested in going...

I dont think either school will give you a significant advantage in matching back to NYC since they are not in the same region.

http://www.umich.edu/~umedstud/reports.html

Judge for yourself, there was some discussion on this exact topic a while ago here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=95190&page=1&pp=25&highlight=Michigan+Match

(note: I tried to find SunnyS81's very informative reply which was very good also by searching, but couldnt, so if anyone has that handy that would be great)

Both UMich and NWU are fantastic schools, but to attempt to pick between such good schools based on match lists might disappoint you. Both schools are regional powerhouses and most match either at their home institution or in the same region. There are always people who match to NY or Cali at both schools, but I never got the feeling that one was superior to another at matching to those states based on what I saw or what my friends experienced.

If anything, it would be better to pick based on which city you liked more, curriculum, costs, etc. Neither school has the name (like Harvard, JHU, etc) to push you through back home to residency, but both schools will really give you fantastic training and will give you a great shot at matching back to NYC.

Im sure SunnyS81 would be happy to clear things up from the UMich side to ya, and there are some people who posted in the Northwestern thread in pre-allo that might know more about this issue as well.

 

[Gleevec]

Oh I forgot to mention, what specialty you want to do might play the single most important role in doing residency back in NYC. If you want to do derm in NY, well its possible but who knows how likely it is. If you want to do internal medicine or peds or general surgery residency in NYC, then you probably wont have any problems matching home. For those specialties that have trouble filling, you could pretty much go anywhere for med school and be set (assuming decent grades, boards, recs, etc)

 

[spumoni620]

i'm no m4 but am planning (after a GREAT deal of research) to go to U Mich this fall, so i'll give you my 2 cents' worth.

I remember that thread that gleevec posted about above...at the beginning is a pretty worrisome interview feedback response that provoked a lot of negative reactions. the whole discussion actually scared me off quite a bit from umich actually. however, i've talked to/pm'ed nearly every umich student that i've met on this forum, and went to the 2nd look weekend, emailed a bunch of other students (ms1-ms4), talked to professors, doctors and researchers that i know here in tx, read the ms1/ms2 student-written guide, looked at research opportunities, usnews rankings, etc. etc. this is a brief summary of what i found (some of it goes beyond your question, sorry - but i'm including it in case others are reading):

- one person's experience is not necessarily yours. most students i talked to were happy; some were happier than others. but you can't look at someone else's experience and say, "well gee, he's really happy here so this school will a perfect fit for me." it's a personal thing; you can never know for sure. obviously that person from interview feedback was bitter and unhappy, but i'm going into this hoping that won't be the case for me. just like there are some who are ridiculously happy and proud of their school, and while i hope i feel the same way, i'm going into this with no expectations.

- Matching: i think the best piece of advice i've gotten from these forums is not to over-consider match lists when deciding b/t med schools. i certainly didn't look at them until AFTER i decided to go to umich (and i'm actually hoping to go into academics, one of the more competitive fields i suppose) honestly, there are so many factors that precipitate where one heads for residency. i believe, from what iserson/doctors i've shadowed say, that grades, rotations and recommendations are the most important. save for harvard and hopkins, ucsf probably, prestige won't really get you much more than, perhaps, a foot in the door (if that). this explains how stellar grads from unranked/lower-tier/carribean schools still can land top residency spots. neither place, i think, will give you an "easy in" to nyc, although one person i pm'ed (not attending U Mich but a southern school) told me UofM might have a "slight advantage" in matching to NYC.

- i think that in lieu of matching concerns, you should look at which city you would prefer to live in for 4 years in making your decision.

- One thing you might want to consider is (something a student remarked to me during 2nd look weekend): Michigan graduates a TON of students in several academic disciplines; chances are you'll meet someone down the road in various fields who has some affiliation with the school. whether this might give you an advantage in terms of connections later in your career or whatnot...you never know.

- i'll let sunny answer the question of whether michigan students "had to" or "wanted to" stay in michigan for residency. my gut feeling though, is that it's the latter. i've heard from several people that 1) a2 is supposedly a great, low-crime place to live (one of the top cities or something in the u.s.??), with high housing costs being the only negative and 2) some of the top residency programs are at umich as well, with the um hospitals on the u.s. news honor roll and 3) a lot of people from michigan want to stay in michigan b/c of the good school system, family ties, etc. as for me: i'm one of those who DEFINITELY doesn't see myself in a2 for more than 4 years at this point, so i am entering this fully aware of the pros and cons of attending school in the midwest. in the end i really do believe that w/hard work, etc. (just as in any other med school, including northwestern), i'll end up being to match at a location desirable to me. of course, while one should take rankings with a grain of salt, i figure there's a reason why umich grads are ranked so highly by residency directors...tied for #3 i believe. that certainly can't hurt when applying for residency positions.


here is sunnys81's response to the interview feedback comment btw:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=95205

good luck with the decision.

 

[WingZero]

I'm a Michigan M4 (one week exactly until graduation - how scary is that?) so I'll offer my $0.02 based of my four years of accumulated pseudo-wisdom. I've posted on similar threads before so I'll just make a few comments. First, if you're dead set on going to California or NYC or Boston for residency, you're obviously going to have a better shot at those places if you go to med school in that respective area. In highly competitive fields, you will receive the majority of your interview offers from the region of your med school (Michigan, Ohio, Illinois, Indiana) and offers from the coasts will be more of a crapshoot (i.e. you'll get some offers you didn't think you would, and some less competitive places on the coasts will turn you down). As for the tendency of Michigan grads to stay at U of M - I think it's due to multiple factors. The most obvious is that half the student body is from Michigan to begin with, and with family / significant other ties to the area, that alone is a strong reason to stay. In addition, even people I knew M1 year who were Michigan "lifers" (grew up in the area, went to U of M undergrad) and dying to get out of Michigan at all costs for residency ending up staying. The U of M hospital is a phenominal clinical site and it's something med students get familiar / comfortable with. U of M residencies by and large are some of the most benign in almost every field, there is a strong House Officers Association here, and residents get great benefits (i.e. $200 a month for meals, several thousand dollar yearly bonuses, etc.) I struggled at length with this before deciding to go elsewhere for my residency based mainly on issues particular to my specific field. The bottom line is that I think you should choose a medical school based on where you think you will learn best as opposed to a perceived edge in the residency application process. Sure, the resources you will have access to here at U of M are second to none and you will come out a well-trained graduate, but your competitiveness in applying for residency positions has far more to do with your individual performance (Step 1, clinical grades) than the school logo stamped on your transcript. In fact, if you look at people in most of the "top" residencies in any given field, many of them come from medical schools not ranked in the USNews Top 25, for what that's worth. Please feel free to PM me with specific questions.

 

[elias514]

One of the really cool things about Michigan--something that distinguishes the school from so many other med schools--is the overall strength of the academics there, which is something that spumoni touched on earlier. If you look at the rankings of the other graduate and professional programs at U Mich, you'll find that practically every program is top-ranked: the business, law, and nursing schools are top ten programs. Most of the graduate programs are ranked among the top ten in the country, including the public health program, which is open to med students. The overall quality of students at Michigan has got to be amazing. It's one of the things that attracted me to U Mich in the first place.

In fact, my future home in Ann Arbor is going to be a great cross-section of academic disciplines at Michigan: my future roommates include another M1, a law student, a public health student, and either an MBA or social sciences (can't remember the exact discipline) PhD student. The conversations should be great.

I don't know if the overall academic atmosphere at Michigan is a valid reason for attending med school there, but it's certainly a "pull" factor for me.

 

[nuclearrabbit77]

what the heck is undergraduate medical education mean? are you talking about college? because if you aren't even in college yet then you should be more concerned about sex, experimental drug use, and sex.

 

[elias514]

the OP means med school

 

[NikkiDeee]

undergraduate medical education = medical school
graduate medical education (GME) = residency

 

[josephgoro]

all the posts so far have been by people from/affiliated with umich. kinda weird

 

[SunnyS81]

I agree with everything said, and everything someone predicted I would say.

I just got back from ATL, but here's a quickie....

1) With ~50% of the class instate, and probably 75% from the midwest, what other good academic centers are there in the midwest? WashU? Explains a high incest rate. On the other hand a ton of people go to Chicago for residencies just because they want to be in chicago although they don't have nearly the caliber of academic centers....

2) I think the regionality that WingZero mentioned probalby pretty accurate, except in the most dominant departments (ENT comes to mind).....I'm only a lowly m1/m2, so I can't say much.

3) Be careful about looking at match lists. Knowing the top departments in every speciality is like playing with fire. If a person matches at Emory for example in IM, with every intention of going into cards....then they are at a pretty good place (just comes to mind because I saw the "Emory top 10 cardiology" sign today....although I think their IM program is well known.....)

4) Time for bed......