Middletown Branch of Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine

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I remember cliquesh (CCOM grad) saying that in his class, only a minority took the USMLE and he only knew of a fraction that did well (230+) on it.

Do you really think that all the 22-24 mcat applicants that'll be filling spots at new schools like LUCOM will be acing the usmle? I'm not saying that metrics have the greatest correlation with board scores, but all these new schools will hardly be filling with the cream of the crop.

I think US MD expansion will hurt DO students the most

Enough ACGME programs are familiar and know how to deal with COMLEX scores for plenty of people who only took the comlex to match. And again, it's all about preference. You could have an entire class that wants to do super competitive surgery specialties and thus not need to take the USMLE entirely. I mean if you're thinking Ortho then you probably want to concentrate on Comlex
But yes, USMLE pass rates in LUCOM's first class likely will be low and its residency match list will likely make any crap we pulled up on RVU look minor.

Either way, the worst affected will be FMGs.

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Keep in mind also the mass recruiting of Canadians for entry into these new DO schools. Leaps and bounds are being made by governing bodies up here ensuring multiple Canadians that returning for residency is very possible.

A fraction of the increased DO population is Canadian and are unable to match into AOA. We basically have to match acgme or else we are **** outta luck (unless we match canadian)
 
Keep in mind also the mass recruiting of Canadians for entry into these new DO schools. Leaps and bounds are being made by governing bodies up here ensuring multiple Canadians that returning for residency is very possible.

A fraction of the increased DO population is Canadian and are unable to match into AOA. We basically have to match acgme or else we are **** outta luck (unless we match canadian)
It looks like only 37 Canadians matriculated in the fall of 2012

Source: http://www.aacom.org/data/applicantsmatriculants/Documents/2012-Applicant-Matriculant-Report.pdf

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I'd like to know how they navigate all of that red tape of getting licensing/proper credit for work done in the two different countries to try to give the option to practice in either country, depending upon how your personal life and career choices may guide you in the future.
 
I'd like to know how they navigate all of that red tape of getting licensing/proper credit for work done in the two different countries to try to give the option to practice in either country, depending upon how your personal life and career choices may guide you in the future.

From what I've heard it's not too tough. If you did your residency in the US then you have to write an equivalency exam. If you did your residency in Canada then you're good to go to practice there.
 
From what I've heard it's not too tough. If you did your residency in the US then you have to write an equivalency exam. If you did your residency in Canada then you're good to go to practice there.
Good to know. I know a few people that are planning to do this, either for personal reasons or for really good offers they're getting from private corporations that need their own on-site physician and will pay very well for him.
 
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It's happening. Many programs will take a great DO over an average MD. I'm not saying the MD doesn't match anywhere but being an MD doesn't suddenly mean you have first dibs on ACGME res anymore.

Do you care to give some specific examples of such programs?
 
Do you care to give some specific examples of such programs?

Sorry, it's mostly anecdotal. I've heard of a few mid-tier residencies which would take a stellar candidate over a mediocre one despite the candidate's school's philosophy.
 
Iternational grads are going to have a lot harder time (in general) than homegrown DO's. I think the carribian schools will feel it more and could even phase out of the US residencies. American schooled MD/DO have the highest priority.
It's hard to say how a school will do on the USMLE. MCAT doesn't have a direct correlation with USMLE (maybe step 1 but that's about it). There really isn't a good predictor of the USMLE except for how well you really do and how hard you work in med school. Some people just know how to take tests, and let's be honest, a great test taker doesn't always mean a great practitioner.
 
Here is a list of schools in Applicant Status: http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/accreditation/predoctoral accreditation/Documents/new-and-developing-colleges-of-osteopathic-medicine-and-campuses.pdf

Realize that a rapid growth in schools will be a huge negative and a step back from how much ground DOs have covered in the ACGME. If ACGME programs begin getting flooded with DO applicants and since the number of MD applicants is also increasing, an easy way for residents and staff to get through applications is just barring DO students or making some kind of ridiculous standards. I promise this will definitely affect even the top applicants and most certainly the average applicant. I know it sounds "doom and gloom", but this is a real possibility within the next decade if this keeps up.

Also, I know we're all special snowflakes, but being a top DO student that can rise above their MD counterparts significantly (such as much higher Step 1 scores and not just a couple points above the average) is easier said than done.

The incompetence of the AOA and COCA never seizes to amaze me. I also enjoy how each new DO school and site starts with an absurd amount of students. 162 opening class for LU? Really? And it has nothing to do with tuition dollars but for that PCP shortage?

EDIT: Just realized they also want to open more for profit schools, such as Larkin COM in Miami, FL even though South FL has 4 medical schools in the area already...ridiculous
http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2013/04/23/larkin-hospital-closes-48-acre.html?page=all

After making so many strides forward the AOA is beginning to move us backward. The DO schools are looking more like money making schemes than genuine institutions of academic learning.
I think with the current trend of opening new schools, the value of the DO degree will decline.
 
After making so many strides forward the AOA is beginning to move us backward. The DO schools are looking more like money making schemes than genuine institutions of academic learning.
I think with the current trend of opening new schools, the value of the DO degree will decline.

I think the residency merger and the upcoming future one match system will make the DO schools proliferation slow down.
 
I think the residency merger and the upcoming future one match system will make the DO schools proliferation slow down.

I think the new COCA requirements will (or have already) slowed down DO school proliferation. The whole affiliating-with/forming an OPTI, requiring that schools make sure their students pass COMLEX Level 3, and a minimum GME placement of 98% are pretty steep (but very necessary) requirements that will make any new school that wants to open hesitate.
 
I think the new COCA requirements will (or have already) slowed down DO school proliferation. The whole affiliating-with/forming an OPTI, requiring that schools make sure their students pass COMLEX Level 3, and a minimum GME placement of 98% are pretty steep (but very necessary) requirements that will make any new school that wants to open hesitate.
Let's hope so. There needs to be more in the standards that disincentivizes the financial aspect of opening a DO school. Hopefully what you mentioned helps.
 
I have not seen enough explanatory content on this thread, so here is a little bit of a crash-course between the politics of residency funding and the MD/DO issue.

With respects to Congress paying for more residency positions, I don't think they will, anytime soon, pay for more spots because it is well known problem that hospitals can simply use residency money to pay for other expenditures (and call this an "indirect" cost of residency), which inflates the cost of training a resident unnecessarily. Thus, the Congress-funding-residency positions is not cut and dry, and the argument from Congress is "where is the money going," and "who is the money coming from at the end of the day", and "what is the bottom line for the consumer". I believe Congress hasn't increased funding for years, so new residencies must be funded through other means.
(sources: http://www.healthaffairs.org/healthpolicybriefs/brief.phpbrief_id=73,
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PublicHealthPolicy/MedicalEducation/42786)

This leaves the onus on new medical schools to show they can establish strategic relationships with hospitals to increase residency positions without Congress paying for new positions (e.g. voluntary creation of programs at cost to the hospital, private funding, state funding). If a new school is opened in a location that has minimal competition with established schools (underserved areas, in need of primary care), and this new school can build strategic agreements with local hospitals in exchange to ease future increased doctor shortages, I don't think there must necessarily be a squeeze on existing residency positions. This may indeed be a new means for medical schools to expand, especially if their respective accreditation bodies require a plan for graduates, and said medical school can show a strategic hospital agreement. (source: https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/374000/03212014.html).

Next, ACGME and AOA will merge in 2015. I do not see how there can be any further stigma between MD/DO after this merger, since all residencies will be under the same system, and if there is one residency pathway, why have two examinations? If the USMLE and COMLEX are merged, why have two separate medical identities? Etc. Likely, the MD/DO difference will become as trivial as the DMD, DDS difference (http://www.1800dentist.com/dmd/). At the end of the day, science is science for those procedures backed by solid research, and DOs can practice OMM at theirs and their patient's discretion, who normally pay out of pocket for it (research exists, but is not extensive for OMM; sometimes it makes sense for identification and correction of gait pathologies/acquired scoliosis/lower back pain/other musculoskeletal conditions, sometimes it is piggybacked by alternative medicine and doesn't make sense). I believe the pre-merger problem was that DO students could take on an ACGME residency, but MD students couldn't take on an AOA residency, thus increases in student DOs was not equally requited for the MD side.

This is becoming tl;dr, so I hope the situation is a little more clear now, for all those who have gone back and forth over hearsay and the minutiae of details that is inherent in this kind of conversation. Please correct anything that I may have omitted or overstated.
 
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With the addition of 100 more students, the total first-year enrollment for DO schools will be close to 6600 next year. That's nearly a 22% increase over the past 4 years. If this trend continues then by 2020 the total first-year enrollment will be over 8200, 4 times the number of AOA residency positions.

Remember, or perhaps you are unaware - AOA residencies are going the way of the dinosaur. Nationwide, ALL residencies will soon be open to both MD and DO applicants. A complicated issue to be sure, and still very controversial in many venues, but true nonetheless.

See the immediate previous post - a good one.
 
Hi, I'm new to SDN and I recently got an Interview from TouroCOM Middletown for January. Can someone who has already had an interview there or knows anything please tell me what exactly it is like. Any tips would be appreciated. Thanks!
 
thank you for sharing!
I have not seen enough explanatory content on this thread, so here is a little bit of a crash-course between the politics of residency funding and the MD/DO issue.

With respects to Congress paying for more residency positions, I don't think they will, anytime soon, pay for more spots because it is well known problem that hospitals can simply use residency money to pay for other expenditures (and call this an "indirect" cost of residency), which inflates the cost of training a resident unnecessarily. Thus, the Congress-funding-residency positions is not cut and dry, and the argument from Congress is "where is the money going," and "who is the money coming from at the end of the day", and "what is the bottom line for the consumer". I believe Congress hasn't increased funding for years, so new residencies must be funded through other means.
(sources: http://www.healthaffairs.org/healthpolicybriefs/brief.phpbrief_id=73,
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PublicHealthPolicy/MedicalEducation/42786)

This leaves the onus on new medical schools to show they can establish strategic relationships with hospitals to increase residency positions without Congress paying for new positions (e.g. voluntary creation of programs at cost to the hospital, private funding, state funding). If a new school is opened in a location that has minimal competition with established schools (underserved areas, in need of primary care), and this new school can build strategic agreements with local hospitals in exchange to ease future increased doctor shortages, I don't think there must necessarily be a squeeze on existing residency positions. This may indeed be a new means for medical schools to expand, especially if their respective accreditation bodies require a plan for graduates, and said medical school can show a strategic hospital agreement. (source: https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/374000/03212014.html).

Next, ACGME and AOA will merge in 2015. I do not see how there can be any further stigma between MD/DO after this merger, since all residencies will be under the same system, and if there is one residency pathway, why have two examinations? If the USMLE and COMLEX are merged, why have two separate medical identities? Etc. Likely, the MD/DO difference will become as trivial as the DMD, DDS difference (http://www.1800dentist.com/dmd/). At the end of the day, science is science for those procedures backed by solid research, and DOs can practice OMM at theirs and their patient's discretion, who normally pay out of pocket for it (research exists, but is not extensive for OMM; sometimes it makes sense for identification and correction of gait pathologies/acquired scoliosis/lower back pain/other musculoskeletal conditions, sometimes it is piggybacked by alternative medicine and doesn't make sense). I believe the pre-merger problem was that DO students could take on an ACGME residency, but MD students couldn't take on an AOA residency, thus increases in student DOs was not equally requited for the MD side.

This is becoming tl;dr, so I hope the situation is a little more clear now, for all those who have gone back and forth over hearsay and the minutiae of details that is inherent in this kind of conversation. Please correct anything that I may have omitted or overstated.
 
I'm wondering if the point of this expansion is, aside from making money, to take over what the Caribbean schools have been doing for the last few decades.


I have it in my mind that the strategy here is to rapidly increase the number of DOs in medicine to bolster ranks so that they dont get bullied by the overwhelming majority of MD doctors. Remember there has been a long history of MDs lobbying for laws that limited practice rights for DOs. And from a financial perspective, why wouldnt they. Snuff out the competition. Its alot easier to screw over ~8% of physicians than 20% of physicians (which is the number of DO graduates by 2020 I think). The expansion of DO schools is risky with the uncertain future of residency spots, but at the same time Caribbean schools continue to enroll students despite significantly lower residency match rates. I think the nefarious plot is for the US to refuse to allow Carribean schools (except a few of them) to award a medical degree that can be used in the US. This isnt because Caribbean schools dont produce great doctors. they can and they do. Its because those schools dont pay "tithe" to the AMA of nearly as much in school taxes. They have so much money to throw around down there its ridiculous
 
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