Midwest MS-2, where to do rads electives during 3rd year

[pathologyDO]

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I'm currently located in Kansas City and am going to be starting 3rd year in August. I know that you should try to schedule electives as early as possible, especially at competitive programs. I'm looking for advice on which programs in the area I should be looking to do elective rads rotations at (e.g. ones that have good didactics or that will set me up well for auditions, etc.)

I wouldn't mind going to Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas, or other places not too far from Missouri.

 

[deleted564680]

Well UM-KC would obviously be the easy choice. I've heard some people say good things about it.
Competitive programs are few right now though.
In general, the hardest to get in the MW would be Mayo, MIR, Michigan then a 2nd tier of NW, Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa, CCF (if you count that as Midwest). After that should be no trouble.

 

[pathologyDO]

UMKC is for sure on my differential for future DR residencies as they accept quite a few KCUMB students on a regular basis

That being said I worry about doing an elective there because I might rather do an audition rotation. So my question is not necessarily which programs are hardest to get into, but which places are best to do elective rotations at that I would get some useful didactic experiences or something like that

 

[deleted564680]

For the most part, audition rotations don't really help a lot for radiology. Some people even advise that they can "only hurt you" since you can't contribute much as a student. Their only benefit is to see the program and get to know it for your sake.
As far as places in the Midwest that have good didactics....pretty much any academic center will have those but the "name brands" I mentioned before have the strongest ones usually. I think Nebraska has pretty good lectures from what I remember.
Others can chime in if they think differently.

 

[pathologyDO]

For the most part, audition rotations don't really help a lot for radiology. Some people even advise that they can "only hurt you" since you can't contribute much as a student. Their only benefit is to see the program and get to know it for your sake.
As far as places in the Midwest that have good didactics....pretty much any academic center will have those but the "name brands" I mentioned before have the strongest ones usually. I think Nebraska has pretty good lectures from what I remember.
Others can chime in if they think differently.

I see, that makes sense. The Mayo would be what I would consider a dream residency, and the Mayo in general hits near home because it is where my grandmother was treated when she was diagnosed with cancer.

So when you say audition rotations can basically only hurt you, does that also include elective rotations too? Or do PDs/residents expect you to be a basic dumb@22 when you do electives? Sorry for the stupid questions, I'm just trying to get this all sorted out now so I can worry less about this stuff come the beginning of 3rd year

 

[preDoGuy24]

I see, that makes sense. The Mayo would be what I would consider a dream residency, and the Mayo in general hits near home because it is where my grandmother was treated when she was diagnosed with cancer.

So when you say audition rotations can basically only hurt you, does that also include elective rotations too? Or do PDs/residents expect you to be a basic dumb@22 when you do electives? Sorry for the stupid questions, I'm just trying to get this all sorted out now so I can worry less about this stuff come the beginning of 3rd year

I think he means that in general radiology is a field that is not covered well in medical school curriculum (to put it mildly). Essentially everything is new, even a lot of the diseases in differentials are things that you will never had heard of or read of before. This is an environment where an audition rotation is difficult, you can't stand out in any measurable way because everything will more than likely be new to you. Some people try to do an IR rotation where there is a significant clinical component (you can pre-round, write notes, help with scut etc). I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to try and do a rotation somewhere you can get a good letter, probably ought to make sure it will be a good student experience and you can get a good letter first though...as well as make sure you can suppress any inner weirdo you may or may not have.

 

[BrooklynBulls]

If you wanna audition at a heavy-hitter, I'd do one elective in Radiology for a warm-up, another, less competitive audition rotation, then hit something like Mayo for the 3rd go-round. Studying up for the 2 months might make you look like you actually know something. That's basically what I did.

 

[pathologyDO]

I think he means that in general radiology is a field that is not covered well in medical school curriculum (to put it mildly). Essentially everything is new, even a lot of the diseases in differentials are things that you will never had heard of or read of before. This is an environment where an audition rotation is difficult, you can't stand out in any measurable way because everything will more than likely be new to you. Some people try to do an IR rotation where there is a significant clinical component (you can pre-round, write notes, help with scut etc). I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to try and do a rotation somewhere you can get a good letter, probably ought to make sure it will be a good student experience and you can get a good letter first though...as well as make sure you can suppress any inner weirdo you may or may not have.

Ah yes, almost forgot about the LOR that will be important. Haha inner weirdo none of that here

If you wanna audition at a heavy-hitter, I'd do one elective in Radiology for a warm-up, another, less competitive audition rotation, then hit something like Mayo for the 3rd go-round. Studying up for the 2 months might make you look like you actually know something. That's basically what I did.

This is an excellent idea I think, thanks for sharing this. I'm still waiting to find out more about when we can do electives and how many can be done. Apparently the whole thing is site-specific (we have no mother hospital) and yet we are not currently allowed to contact the site coordinators yet.
Guess I will have to wait and come up with some programs to do electives at. Might go for say Mizzou or KU and then work my way to Mayo, if I can get a spot that is. I imagine getting a good LOR from someone at the Mayo would be the penultimate cherry on top if I want a Midwest residency

 

[deleted564680]

I posted the below list on the "Rankings" thread but just an fyi (and I don't know if rotating there will change anything) but I've never heard of anyone getting an interview at Mayo as a DO and they haven't taken one for residency before. It would be an amazing place to rotate but I wouldn't want you to "waste" a month.
Here is a list of "top" places based on that guy's rankings that have interviewed/taken DOs. I can tell you that I know some of the DOs that matched at UPMC and CCF were definitely high scores, etc. I'm not sure about the rest.

7. UPMC
13. CCF
21. Yale (just took one this year but been interviewing them for years)
23. Wake Forest
28. USC
35. Colorado
38. Dartmouth
41. MUSC
42. Beaumont
43. Cincinnati
47. Minnesota
50. UNC

Programs in the Midwest that interview and/or take DOs regularly besides the above: UMKC, UM-Columbia, U Kansas both campuses, SIU, U of I - Peoria, UIC, Nebraska, Univ. of Minnesota, Grand Rapids-MI, Aultman-Ohio

Those are off the top of my head but there may be others.

 

[BrooklynBulls]

It is not a waste if they don't interview him. A strong letter from a bigwig at Mayo/MIR/Michigan will go a long way.

 

[deleted564680]

It is not a waste if they don't interview him. A strong letter from a bigwig at Mayo/MIR/Michigan will go a long way.

Why would they give him a strong letter but then not interview him? Would a "form" letter or "average" letter from Mayo/MIR/Michigan still be worth anything?
I'm not saying don't do it, just maybe do best of both worlds and try CCF, UPMC, or Cincinnati that have taken DOs.

 

[BrooklynBulls]

Why would they give him a strong letter but then not interview him? Would a "form" letter or "average" letter from Mayo/MIR/Michigan still be worth anything?
I'm not saying don't do it, just maybe do best of both worlds and try CCF, UPMC, or Cincinnati that have taken DOs. Michigan took one this year but I heard rumors it was a special case?? Not sure though.

I said a strong letter. A form letter helps no one and you know that. I know people personally that rotated at places that didnt give them an interview, but got letters or published research that ended up giving them an edge on the trail. All of those places you mention are totally fine too, I am just saying auditions are not solely for entrance into the program you are auditioning at.

 

[deleted564680]

I said a strong letter. A form letter helps no one and you know that. I know people personally that rotated at places that didnt give them an interview, but got letters or published research that ended up giving them an edge on the trail. All of those places you mention are totally fine too, I am just saying auditions are not solely for entrance into the program you are auditioning at.

Ah okay. I didn't realize that people had been to those places and got awesome letters but not an interview....Sounds about right I guess....Seems like quite the slap in the face. That's about as directly discriminating against DOs as you can get. Here's an awesome letter about how great you are but yeah sorry we can't take you in our program or even give you an interview.

 

[BrooklynBulls]

Ah okay. I didn't realize that people had been to those places and got awesome letters but not an interview....Sounds about right I guess....Seems like quite the slap in the face. That's about as directly discriminating against DOs as you can get. Here's an awesome letter about how great you are but yeah sorry we can't take you in our program or even give you an interview.

One person I know was told that the letter-writer would be able to get them an interview but it would be a courtesy as they knew that a DO would not be considered by the committee. But the way forward isn't to discourage people from going to these places, it's to send DO's to these places and have people continuously see that we are in no way inferior. Just look at all the breakthroughs DO's have made in the past 5 years.

 

[pathologyDO]

I posted the below list on the "Rankings" thread but just an fyi (and I don't know if rotating there will change anything) but I've never heard of anyone getting an interview at Mayo as a DO and they haven't taken one for residency before. It would be an amazing place to rotate but I wouldn't want you to "waste" a month.
Here is a list of "top" places based on that guy's rankings that have interviewed/taken DOs. I can tell you that I know some of the DOs that matched at UPMC and CCF were definitely high scores, etc. I'm not sure about the rest.

7. UPMC
12. Michigan (just took one this year)
13. CCF
21. Yale (just took one this year but been interviewing them for years)
23. Wake Forest
28. USC
35. Colorado
38. Dartmouth
41. MUSC
42. Beaumont
43. Cincinnati
47. Minnesota
50. UNC

Programs in the Midwest that interview and/or take DOs regularly besides the above: UMKC, UM-Columbia, U Kansas both campuses, SIU, U of I - Peoria, UIC, Nebraska, Univ. of Minnesota, Grand Rapids-MI, Aultman-Ohio

Those are off the top of my head but there may be others.

Not sure about Rads, but last year we had a KCUMB student match Derm at the Mayo if that is worth anything..

But thanks for your honesty, I appreciate it

 

[deleted564680]

Yeah I meant for rads. I also agree we need trailblazers. I just don't know if I'd want to be the one to take that gamble. It's a mindset that will just have to die off with old MD attendings In 15 to 20 years I think.

 

[pathologyDO]

One person I know was told that the letter-writer would be able to get them an interview but it would be a courtesy as they knew that a DO would not be considered by the committee. But the way forward isn't to discourage people from going to these places, it's to send DO's to these places and have people continuously see that we are in no way inferior. Just look at all the breakthroughs DO's have made in the past 5 years.

That is absurd... "we know this person is an outstanding applicant, but we wont take him because he went to a D.O. school." Just wow. But yes, I think the merger taking hold + increased quality of D.O. students due to higher competition is going to lead to a noticeable trend of increased admittance into allopathic residencies, hopefully even ones that once never allowed any

 

[deleted564680]

That is absurd... "we know this person is an outstanding applicant, but we wont take him because he went to a D.O. school." Just wow. But yes, I think the merger taking hold + increased quality of D.O. students due to higher competition is going to lead to a noticeable trend of increased admittance into allopathic residencies, hopefully even ones that once never allowed any

It just upsets me because it's clear mental thinking of superiority-inferiority based solely on two letters after someone's name, especially when there are more highly qualified DOs that get left out. It's judging people on what they did before medical school rather than during. Doesn't make any sense. I'm surprised they don't look back at our high school records and say "oh man you went to public city school....sorry we can't take you."

I just hope that it goes away eventually with the merger because the ONLY argument that has any merit is "well DOs have their own residencies so we don't have to take them." Well, after the merger that is no longer true.

 

[elektroshok]

I think doing aways are of no real value. It is not like you can show how hard you work on a radiology elective like you would on a med/surg sub i.
just kill your sub i, get a good letter from your home rads program and you'll match

 

[pathologyDO]

I think doing aways are of no real value. It is not like you can show how hard you work on a radiology elective like you would on a med/surg sub i.
just kill your sub i, get a good letter from your home rads program and you'll match

We are an osteopathic school so there is no "home" rads program for us, unfortunately. The best I can do is go to UMKC or KU for a good rads letter but since they're outside schools I have to get those LORs through electives.