Midwestern Glendale Psy.D. vs. Other Psy.D. Programs

[stephd]

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xd

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I have never heard of them, though their stats seem to be a bit of a mixed bag. It looks like they limit their class size (15), but they only have an APA-acred. match rate of 25%. If they just became APA-acred, their match rate may very well go up with the acred., but only time will tell. They are pushing an "accelerated" path, which is worrisome because that seems counter to providing a solid foundation of training, just my 2 cents.

 

[stephd]

xd

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

You should only consider university-based and funded programs, so that is a definite NO for Argosy. As for APA-acred. v. Non-acred....you definitely should only consider APA-acred. internships. APPIC is not actually an accreditation, instead it is a membership classification. All APA-acred. internship sites are APPIC members, but not all APPIC members are APA-acred.

There have been a plethora of threads on here about APA-acred. v. Non-acred. internship sites, as well as a description on the APPIC.org website about the implications of attending an internship site that is not APA-acred. The short answer is that it will limit your employment options. The long answer is that the internship imbalance has really jacked up the training path for psychology, so attending a quality program does not guarantee all students will secure APA-acred. internship sites.

 

[stephd]

That is all helpful information, thank you! I get so many different opinions about it all, I find myself confused.
I'll search the forums and look for all of that info. I really just want to get a Doc that is not research heavy but even the Counseling Psych PHDs these days are much more research heavy than they used to be, at least in the west.

 

[futureapppsy2]

They have the advantage of having a small class size and a med school affiliation, but the cost is very steep, and it looks like you should anticipate being there for 4 years plus internship (judging from their completion rate stats,relatively few actually do the 3+1 plan), and they require you to pay full tuition during internship, IIRC (ouch, and also unreasonable). I actually looked at both Midwestern programs pretty extensively when I was applying, but ultimately, I think the cost (you'd come out with $150-200k or more in debt) is completely and totally unreasonable in this field, where a decent post doc salary is 25-30k and a decent licensed starting salary is 50-60k. I also think being a new program not affiliated with a traditional university may hurt them. Regardless, the cost and lack of funding should be a huge deterrent, IMO.

 

[stephd]

xd

 

[futureapppsy2]

Given your counseling masters degree, why not look at the more balanced and the more practitioner focused funded Counseling Psychology PhD programs? AFAIK, more counseling psych PhD programs are balanced or practitioner-focused--there are only a few that I know of that are more research-heavy. You may also have a bit of a leg up at programs that require a Counseling masters degree. Good luck!

 

[stephd]

xd

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Thank you-- maybe I am just familiar with the Arizona Counseling PHD program which has become more research heavy.. but I think I should continue looking into others and get outside of AZ.. even though that is hard for me to do, but I need to consider it!

I'd strongly encourage you to consider being geographically flexible, yes. Even if you're able to make things work with grad school by looking only in AZ, the way the internship imbalance looks currently, it's almost a necessity that you keep your relocation options open. Postdoc/employment might also require moving, although I know many people (myself included) who were able to find positions in at least the general areas they were hoping for, if not specific cities or states.

However, you're fortunate in that AZ and its neighboring/nearby states (e.g., NM, OK) have some great sites at all levels (i.e., doctoral, internship, postdoc) that don't tend to receive quite as many applications as programs on the coasts.

 

[KillerDiller]

(judging from their completion rate stats,relatively few actually do the 3+1 plan)

The 3+1 set-up scares me. I understand why students want to be out of high priced schools quicker, but I agree with T4C that it's not enough training. My impression of one of the PsyD programs near me is that they push a lot of people through in 4 years. I'm seeing their students applying for internship now with only a year and a couple months of prac experience. I think that's doing a disservice to students in their clinical training--especially considering that that is supposed to be the focus of the PsyD model.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

The 3+1 set-up scares me. I understand why students want to be out of high priced schools quicker, but I agree with T4C that it's not enough training. My impression of one of the PsyD programs near me is that they push a lot of people through in 4 years. I'm seeing their students applying for internship now with only a year and a couple months of prac experience. I think that's doing a disservice to students in their clinical training--especially considering that that is supposed to be the focus of the PsyD model.

Some schools are starting prac in the first semester of the first year (giving them just as many hours as a 4+1 program that starts prac in the second year), which is much more reasonable when you already have a masters degree and prac hours under your belt obviously. Not that I agree with that, mind you--I don't. There is much to be said for 4-5 years of indoctrination into literature/research and breadth of training. 500 hours of client contact is much, much different when spread over 4-5 years than it is spread over 2-3.

 

[erg923]

The 3+1 set-up scares me. I understand why students want to be out of high priced schools quicker, but I agree with T4C that it's not enough training. My impression of one of the PsyD programs near me is that they push a lot of people through in 4 years. I'm seeing their students applying for internship now with only a year and a couple months of prac experience. I think that's doing a disservice to students in their clinical training--especially considering that that is supposed to be the focus of the PsyD model.

Which is ironic considering the Psy.D is supposed to give all this clinical experience that Ph.D programs dont?! Right...

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Some schools are starting prac in the first semester of the first year (giving them just as many hours as a 4+1 program that starts prac in the second year), which is much more reasonable when you already have a masters degree and prac hours under your belt obviously. Not that I agree with that, mind you--I don't. There is much to be said for 4-5 years of indoctrination into literature/research and breadth of training. 500 hours of client contact is much, much different when spread over 4-5 years than it is spread over 2-3.

My program (funded PhD) actually started clinical practica in the first (or sometimes second) semester of the first year, and even then, there's no way I would've felt comfortable applying to internship after year three. I agree with you that it's much, much different to have the client contact spread across 4-5 years than it is 2-3, particularly given the amount of related information you're learning as well as the research you're conducting (which I of course understand may not apply as much to a PsyD program).

My opinion: 3+1 just isn't sufficient, regardless of how early the program starts the clinical experiences, or how much previous experience the students have. Period.

 

[cara susanna]

I couldn't even do 4 + 1, haha. I did NOT feel ready for internship.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I couldn't even do 4 + 1, haha. I did NOT feel ready for internship.

I did 5+1 and I felt far more prepared and well-rounded. I was able to spend the majority of my time on internship working on specialist training and the rest of the time smoothing out the edges of my generalist training.

 

[Ollie123]

I'm on the 7+1 track. Would have been happier with 6+1 but any faster than that would have felt like a rush and I'd have had to cut corners on some things. Its certainly not universal, but in general the folks in our program getting out in 4 years unquestionably have had to cut corners to do it (especially on the research side!) and aren't getting anywhere near the same training/experience that others get. Still have decent CVs but from what I've seen its become a great example of learning how to build the CV without necessarily building the qualifications and knowledge its supposed to reflect.

There seems to be more and more emphasis on "get students in and out" these days, which I think is just another example of training being weakened and a focus on "What is the least training we can get away with" as opposed to "How can we train students the best". Obviously its somewhat different for research vs. clinically-focused programs, but I can't imagine anyone leaving for internship after 3 years being at all prepared for the job market.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'm on the 7+1 track. Would have been happier with 6+1 but any faster than that would have felt like a rush and I'd have had to cut corners on some things. Its certainly not universal, but in general the folks in our program getting out in 4 years unquestionably have had to cut corners to do it (especially on the research side!) and aren't getting anywhere near the same training/experience that others get. Still have decent CVs but from what I've seen its become a great example of learning how to build the CV without necessarily building the qualifications and knowledge its supposed to reflect.

There seems to be more and more emphasis on "get students in and out" these days, which I think is just another example of training being weakened and a focus on "What is the least training we can get away with" as opposed to "How can we train students the best". Obviously its somewhat different for research vs. clinically-focused programs, but I can't imagine anyone leaving for internship after 3 years being at all prepared for the job market.

I was on the 6+1 plan myself, and while I regret what that cost me (literally) in a financial sense, I definitely feel that I made the most of my time and learned a lot/experienced a lot that wouldn't have come to pass had I not stuck around as long. It also allowed me to actually enjoy my life while in grad school, as it turned what probably would've been 60-hour work weeks into the more traditional 40-ish hour variety. In the end, I was ok with that trade off.

There were a few people in my program who got out in the "traditional" 4+1. They were well-prepared for internship and have been very successful professionally (predominantly in research/academic careers), but they also had better work ethics than me 😀

In the end, I feel that 4+1 is certainly sufficient, but it requires a good deal of sacrifice and self-discipline from the student in terms of the amount you're going to need to work to pull it off. For the majority of folks, 5+1 is much more manageable, which is probably why it's seemingly becoming the norm. 5+1 also affords you some wiggle room in terms of determining your interests (clinically and scientifically). Everyone I know who got through my program in 4+1, for example, came in with a clear idea of the area on which they'd like to focus, and didn't change their minds while in school.

 

[cara susanna]

I'm hoping to do 5 + 1, but it depends on whether or not I match next year.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I ended up doing 5+1+2, which I know isn't feasible for some, but it really helped me develop as a clinical scientist. I am really uncomfortable seeing ANY program that pushes 3+1, as 4+1 seems really rushed now that I look back. I took my 5th year to teach, research, present, and develop many of things things that aren't just about books and theory.

 

[ClinPsychEnthus]

I'm in a Psy.D. that requires a Masters degree for admission and is then set for a 4 + 1 path. We do 2 years of didactics and 2 years of practica, electives, and completing as much of dissertation as possible. I really enjoyed the 2/2 format because I already had clinical experience going in, so my first 2 years were purely focused on research and course work (which also had specific clinically-oriented classes). I was able to sit for the first 2 portions of comprehensive exams before my practica began. Now, I'm finishing an elective in Clinical Health Psych Assessment and looking to take a few applied clinical electives before *hopefully* I match for internship this year.

That being said, if I had started straight out of undergrad, I don't think I'd like the format of my program nearly as much.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Does anyone sense pressure from their program faculty to finish as early as possible (i.e., 3+1 or 4+1), with an air of disappointment/failure if students extend? I sense that where I am, from both faculty and students. It's disappointing.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Does anyone sense pressure from their program faculty to finish as early as possible (i.e., 3+1 or 4+1), with an air of disappointment/failure if students extend? I sense that where I am, from both faculty and students. It's disappointing.

We had a 7 year "cap" (including internship) at my program, but other than that, there wasn't any pressure to get through quickly. Quite the opposite, really; depending on the advisor, people were sometimes encouraged to stick around for a fifth year.

 

[cara susanna]

Yeah, we actually have consequences if we don't follow the 4 + 1 track, such as not having first dibs on practicum applications and not being able to apply for internal funding.

 

[Ollie123]

Does anyone sense pressure from their program faculty to finish as early as possible (i.e., 3+1 or 4+1), with an air of disappointment/failure if students extend? I sense that where I am, from both faculty and students. It's disappointing.

Some faculty do here (mostly the untenured ones). APA is likely at fault - with all the problems that so many programs have, they have chosen to emphasize "time to completion" as their issue du jour at recent site visits. Most are okay with 5-6. I was fortunate to have support for staying a 7th year - both my advisors (separately) told me "back in the day" stories about folks sticking around for a decade. We lose a few advantages beyond 6 (i.e. we are "back of the line" for clinical funding, but can still get funding from teaching/research and no one ever goes unfunded).

For the record, I'm not opposed to folks getting out quickly and don't doubt that it can happen sometimes. However, given the already existing issues relating to quality of training at many programs I don't think this is a good time to emphasize speed.

I do agree with the above poster that it depends how you approach things. I'm certainly slow, but will have a pretty enormous array of research skills coming out - including tons of stats training, research (and pubs) that range from basic experimental work, to clinical trials, to policy research, and a number of other benefits. If I had a more narrow focus (i.e. "I want to do clinical trials for depression") I imagine that would have been far easier to pull off.

 

[stephd]

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[stephd]

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[KillerDiller]

Thank you for all of the information! I am definitely learning a ton from all of your responses.

In my MC program I have 1 year of internship placement experience and then a semester of practicum, so I am not sure where I would fit with the whole 5+1 etc. equations.

If you are all on the subject, I am a little confused about APA and APPIC. A friend of mine in a doc program says that 99% of APPIC placements are APA. The issue is getting an APA placement that is also APPIC?
When I look at the stats online there are APPIC and APA results listed separately. I'm wondering why a doc student would find APA with APPIC more valuable than an APA without APPIC?

Thanks for educating my newbie self 😕

All APA accredited sites are APPIC member sites. Not all APPIC member sites are APA accredited. The percentage of APPIC sites that are APA accredited is around 75%, not 99%. I'm just computing that from the stats that approximately 75% of students who go through the APPIC match get placed with an APPIC member site. Only about 55% get placed at an APA accredited site.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

All APA-acred. internship sites are APPIC members, but not all APPIC members are APA-acred.

All APA accredited sites are APPIC member sites. Not all APPIC member sites are APA accredited.

Great minds....lol.

The percentage of APPIC sites that are APA accredited is around 75%, not 99%. I'm just computing that from the stats that approximately 75% of students who go through the APPIC match get placed with an APPIC member site. Only about 55% get placed at an APA accredited site.

The 75% is what people most cite, but the 55% is what everyone should be worrying about. There is a growing gap in the 'haves' and have nots' when it comes to APA-acred. internship sites.

 

[futureapppsy2]

We had a 7 year "cap" (including internship) at my program, but other than that, there wasn't any pressure to get through quickly. Quite the opposite, really; depending on the advisor, people were sometimes encouraged to stick around for a fifth year.

I think up to 7 or 8 years in a PhD program (including internship, not counting time in a terminal masters program ) is "reasonable," although eight is at the high end. Beyond that, IMO, you need a good reason (e.g., major health or family issues necessitating a reduced courseload or LOA) or significant accomplishments (e.g.., dual masters degree like an MPH, multiple publications, major grant funding) to justify taking 9+ years.

I've known people to take 10 years with no major interruptions who come out with no publications and even no significant research experience beyond the dissertation. IMO, that is pushing it, If someone takes 9 or 10 years but has an F31 and 7 publications under their belt, that's another (awesome) story. However, in my experience, the people who stretch it in the double digits are often those who really struggle with the dissertation due to poor mentorship or choice of topic, inadequate research training, or just a dislike of or honest lack of aptitude for research. YMMV, of course.

 

[ClinPsychEnthus]

Thank you for all of the information! I am definitely learning a ton from all of your responses.

In my MC program I have 1 year of internship placement experience and then a semester of practicum, so I am not sure where I would fit with the whole 5+1 etc. equations.

If you are all on the subject, I am a little confused about APA and APPIC. A friend of mine in a doc program says that 99% of APPIC placements are APA. The issue is getting an APA placement that is also APPIC?
When I look at the stats online there are APPIC and APA results listed separately. I'm wondering why a doc student would find APA with APPIC more valuable than an APA without APPIC?

Thanks for educating my newbie self 😕

Your friend in a doc program may be confusing you or misinformed. APPIC is the minimum standard, almost how some people describe it as a membership-type program. They do not engage in the rigorous evaluation and accreditation process that APA does. A subset of APPIC membership programs are APA-accredited.

While there is debate as to whether it truly impedes ones career to not do an APA internship (and many of us may know that one person who got a stellar post-doc without one), for many settings and career aspirations, an APA-accredited internship is required. IMO, why would one risk having some doors closed before even beginning your career as a psychologist?

I know some people may consider being less... selective (?) in light of the internship imbalance, but I'd rather take the extra time (if I have to, though I really hope I don't) instead of possibly short changing my career before it even begins.

 

[KillerDiller]

Great minds....lol.

The 75% is what people most cite, but the 55% is what everyone should be worrying about. There is a growing gap in the 'haves' and have nots' when it comes to APA-acred. internship sites.

👍 Yep, totally agree. You don't want to go through all that training (even if it's only 4 years 🙄) and then not even bother to aim for an accredited internship.

I realized my math is probably off given that more APPIC member sites than APA sites remain unfilled after the match. So, it's definitely < 75% of APPIC member sites that are APA accredited.

 

[stephd]

Thank you for the clarification. There is no way I would want to go through however many years it could take and not get an APA accredited internship. It sucks because looking at some programs, you may have to enter hoping the % without an APA internship will not be you. I would be willing to travel anywhere for that because I have heard how difficult it can be to have a good placement.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

I just wanted to add that some programs require an APA accredited internship in order to graduate (e.g., the one I went to). That makes that 55% even a little more scary.

Dr. E

 

[stephd]

Yikes =/. So much pressure.