Military paying for med school?

[Mr Hippopotamus]

Hello all. I'm going to be starting med school next fall, and am considering applying for a Navy HPSP scholarship to pay for it. Can any of you current medical school students tell me if you think it's worth it? How bad is the debt load as a student? For any of you with a military scholarship, do you feel you made the right choice? Since I'm didn't get into a state school, things are going to be expensive if I don't get something figured out. Thanks!

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[LibbyJ]

Hello all. I'm going to be starting med school next fall, and am considering applying for a Navy HPSP scholarship to pay for it. Can any of you current medical school students tell me if you think it's worth it? How bad is the debt load as a student? For any of you with a military scholarship, do you feel you made the right choice? Since I'm didn't get into a state school, things are going to be expensive if I don't get something figured out. Thanks!

I am considering Air Force for my education for several reasons. Yes, it is nice to have it all paid for, but from what I have been told from those currently in the military for medicine, it has many other advantages as well. A job, excellent experience, continued pay for continuing education (to better yourself in medicine). Do not do military simply for the money, as you will probably regret it.

Hope this little information helped, I am sorry I do not have more! Good luck!

 

[Perrotfish]

The debt load as a student is something that you need to ask your school rather than us since it is completely school and city dependent. Obviously the cheaper your school the worse the decision HPSP is from a financial standpoint.

Navy HPSP has a lot of advantages and disadvantages but the biggest thing you need to understand is that once you're in
1) You're stuck. From the second you get your first check there is no getting out until you've served your commitment no matter how much ou want to.
2) They own you and can change almost any rule on you. Just because most people now only move once every 2 years it doesn't mean they can't move you every 3 months. For that matter they're free to send you to Iraq for your entire commitment if they want. This is an oranization where not listening to your superiors is actually a crime, so if you plan on being a Dr. Cox type you might want to look elsewhere.
3) You need to do your residency with the military unless they give you permission not to, and they will almost never give you that permission. First the military match has different odds than the civilian match. For EM in particular the military mach is way harder, Ortho on the other hand is a little easier. Also be aware that the military match works like the civilian match did over a generation ago: you apply for an intern year and then, when you're done with THAT you apply for a residency. This sounds reasonable except for the fact that a lot of Navy HPSP students (more than half) don't get a residency, at least not on their first try. They instead get to spend 2-4 years as a practcing physician in the military with only an intern year as training, known as a GMO tour. These tours are generally cool and are often a lot more specifically 'military' than what you'll do after you finish residency but it's also 2-4 years where you dont learn much and don't get paid much and your skills rot and it's an extra 4 years before you have the stability to actually stop moving every year or two and start a family


I'm an HPSP student and so far I feel like I made the right decision. Financially I go to one of the nation's most expensive schools, I'm interested in a low paying specialty (Psych), and honestly without the military I think I would actually have needed to do something I liked a lot less because there's no way I could have paid off my debts as a psychiatrist. It's also nice that military residencies pay twice as much so I may be able to buy a real house and start a real life before I finish that. Finally, and most importantly, I've always had a thing for the military and so far my few weeks of contact with the Navy have been the shinging spots of medical education. The residents and attendings are infinitely nicer and more relateable than anyone in any civilian hospital I've rotated at and it's a lot easier to stay motivated when you know that your patients are heros (or, at the worst, an E-2 trying to get out of a PFT) rather than addicts trying to scam narcs off of you. That being said I suppose it's easy to feel satisfied when I haven't made any sacrifices yet and I may change my tune after my first stay in a warzone or the first time the military mindlessly and needlessly F--ks my career.

My advice: don't do it if your school is cheap because there will be better opportunities to join later if you're not taking on a lot of debt. Also don't join unless you at least like the idea of a military life. I'm not saying you should have always fantasized about joining the Marines (though I did) but if you're the kind of person who considers Vietnam veterans war criminals and thinks of Soldiers as idiots then find someone else to work for. Also, plan on joining with the intention of deploying, because once you sign the papers you're not getting out of it.

Further advice: Consider all 3 services and read up on the relevant differences. If possible try to go to basic training before medical school starts. Finally get the ball rolling on your paperwork now as this might take a while and they do occasionally run out of scholarships. No signature counts except the last one on the actual contract, so it's in your best interest to submit your forms and go through medical processing early in case there's a problem to iron out.

 

[Skymastre]

Like anything else, the longer you prolong a paycheck the more money you will make.

Economically speaking, in the long run the military scholarship doesn't make sense. About 10 yrs out a hospital/private doc will will more money than a person who enters the military. One has to crunch the numbers, average salaries and all that, but do a search on here and you'll find it's true.

Be skeptical of a person who wants to hand you money and let you be a 'flight surgeon'. The reality is, a flight surgeon is a family practice doc in a jumpsuit.


Edit: one thing that popped into my head

A friend of mine joined the military, but it wasn't to 'make money' (laughable at best). It was because she wanted to donate back to her country and give to some of the poorest folks there are. She figured there was no better way than serving in the military, given that they recruit low income folks all throughout the nation with the promise of a dollar and a dream (hmmm, sound familiar?).

In any event, this is an honorable thing to do. If you are joining the military to make some dough, I suggest going to Kroger and saving yourself grief

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

A couple of my friends are doing the military scholarship thang. They get a good amount of money and don't seem to have regrets. But they are also pretty serious about being military/international docs. When you break down the finances, as noted above, it tends to be less favorable to go the military route in terms of the years it takes to break even. I don't recall how much military doctors make after residency, but it's significantly less than what you'd be making in most specialties out in private practice...enough that 4 years out you'd have banked slightly less net cash than your average student who took on the debt and (in theory) paid it back. But with no debt there's also no interest, which can be significant and might sway the equation more towards the military. It also depends on your specialty. If I was doing primary care, I'd take any opportunity to minimize my debt.

The military also has a number of perks. Just not having to worry about debt is huge for a lot of people. You get to be an officer which has a decent lifestyle, and there are certain bonuses like housing and almost zero cost of living, which is especially advantageous for people with families. I've heard the military health system is pretty solid for doctors as well. The big disadvantage is that if you don't intend on staying in the military, you'll be joining a practice/starting your career years after you normally would have. This is a large potential hidden cost.

 

[LizzyM]

The military also has a number of perks. Just not having to worry about debt is huge for a lot of people. You get to be an officer which has a decent lifestyle, and there are certain bonuses like housing and almost zero cost of living, which is especially advantageous for people with families. I've heard the military health system is pretty solid for doctors as well. The big disadvantage is that if you don't intend on staying in the military, you'll be joining a practice/starting your career years after you normally would have. This is a large potential hidden cost.

The big disadvantage, if you have a family, if the need to deploy anywhere in the world and in some cases, not being able to bring your family along with you. Leaving a spouse to "hold down the fort" can be a major downside to the payback period.

 

[Perrotfish]

Like anything else, the longer you prolong a paycheck the more money you will make.

Economically speaking, in the long run the military scholarship doesn't make sense. About 10 yrs out a hospital/private doc will will more money than a person who enters the military. One has to crunch the numbers, average salaries and all that, but do a search on here and you'll find it's true.

Be skeptical of a person who wants to hand you money and let you be a 'flight surgeon'. The reality is, a flight surgeon is a family practice doc in a jumpsuit.


Edit: one thing that popped into my head

A friend of mine joined the military, but it wasn't to 'make money' (laughable at best). It was because she wanted to donate back to her country and give to some of the poorest folks there are. She figured there was no better way than serving in the military, given that they recruit low income folks all throughout the nation with the promise of a dollar and a dream (hmmm, sound familiar?).

In any event, this is an honorable thing to do. If you are joining the military to make some dough, I suggest going to Kroger and saving yourself grief

1) I've crunched the numbers, and the military is actually be a very good financial deal depending on your circumstances. At one extreme, if you make a career out of military Family Practice coming from an uber expensive school you will start your practice (post residency) nearly 500K ahead of your classmates, you'll average in the 75th percentile for pay for FM docs over the course of your career, and at 20 years you'll have paid retirement with health insurance for the rest of your life. It works out as closer to neutral if you want a mid paying specialty like an IM fellowhip or EM, and is a huge loss if you end up doing ortho. It is not, however, always a bad financial decision.

2) Your average Sailor/Marine is not a dirt poor rube who was tricked into a warzone while chasing a higher income bracket. It really irks me when I see someone portraying our servicemen as victims, tricked into the military by someone who promised them money/glory/whatever. I know it's out of fashion to talk about selflessness when you're not applying to medical school but most of the servicemen I've met are genuinely principled people who knew what they were getting into, at least in regards to discipline and sacrifice. Don't get me wrong, I've heard a fair number of Marines complain that 'my recruiter never mentioned this' when they find out that in addition to warfighing their job includes a significant amount of paper pushing and basic janitorial work, but I have not heard a Marine complain that they weren't expecting to put their life on the line for others, or to give more than they recieved in return. These people understand what they got themselves into.

The big disadvantage, if you have a family, if the need to deploy anywhere in the world and in some cases, not being able to bring your family along with you. Leaving a spouse to "hold down the fort" can be a major downside to the payback period.

See, I've always sort of though that this disadvantage was minimized for medical students, since we don't have any choice where we go anyway. Just about all of us will need to move somewhere completely random for medical school and another completely random place for residency, probably again for fellowship. Is doing it one or two more times really so much different? For that matter is leaving on deployment for 8 months really that different from being estranged from the family you're actively living with during your intern year? If you're in medicine and your spouse won't follow you, and tolerate periodic absences from you, you're pretty much f-d no matter what.

 

[SFGuy2011]

Like anything else, the longer you prolong a paycheck the more money you will make.

Economically speaking, in the long run the military scholarship doesn't make sense. About 10 yrs out a hospital/private doc will will more money than a person who enters the military. One has to crunch the numbers, average salaries and all that, but do a search on here and you'll find it's true.

Be skeptical of a person who wants to hand you money and let you be a 'flight surgeon'. The reality is, a flight surgeon is a family practice doc in a jumpsuit.


Edit: one thing that popped into my head

A friend of mine joined the military, but it wasn't to 'make money' (laughable at best). It was because she wanted to donate back to her country and give to some of the poorest folks there are. She figured there was no better way than serving in the military, given that they recruit low income folks all throughout the nation with the promise of a dollar and a dream (hmmm, sound familiar?).

In any event, this is an honorable thing to do. If you are joining the military to make some dough, I suggest going to Kroger and saving yourself grief

Ah yes. It seems like only yesterday that I was bamboozled into the promise of a dollar and a dream. That was incredibly charitable of her to do that for all of us low-income folks. In all seriousness, I don't disagree that there are a lot of recruiting stations strategically placed in low-income neighborhoods, but I think your friend is trying to justify her decision.

 

[Mace1370]

Before you make a decision you owe it to yourself to head on over the the military medicine forum. Read some of the threads there, ask questions, and talk to the people who post frequently. There are lots of current active duty attendings who post on that forum, so it is a great knowledge base.

 

[LizzyM]

1)
is leaving on deployment for 8 months really that different from being estranged from the family you're actively living with during your intern year?

When you leave a two year old with a "single parent" who is juggling their own life and child care (or daycare) and household duties, and you come home to a three year old, yes, it is different.

Not saying that it should be a deal breaker, just saying that it is different, particularly when we are at war.

 

[Mr Hippopotamus]

Thanks for all the input everyone. Lots of good points. Obviously in joining the military, money shouldn't be the primary factor. And there are a host of reasons other than the money why the military is right for me. But it's not like I couldn't sign on after completing med school and reviewing my options. However, less debt would give me the freedom to practice medicine in places that aren't as lucrative as the United States. I grew up abroad, and the shocking medical care I saw is one of the main reasons I want to be a doctor. The military could help me with that, as well as allowing me to directly participate in humanitarian operations (Haiti, etc) as well as supporting military operations. Of course, I have to balance this against Perrotfish's points about the military's ability to make me practice they type of medicine they want. So I'll definitely have to keep thinking about it, though I'll probably start the paperwork now. After all, it's all academic if I fail the physical...
Thanks again everyone. I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this, they've definitely helped clarify my own.

 

[DucoNonducor]

The debt load as a student is something that you need to ask your school rather than us since it is completely school and city dependent. Obviously the cheaper your school the worse the decision HPSP is from a financial standpoint.

Navy HPSP has a lot of advantages and disadvantages but the biggest thing you need to understand is that once you're in
1) You're stuck. From the second you get your first check there is no getting out until you've served your commitment no matter how much ou want to.
2) They own you and can change almost any rule on you. Just because most people now only move once every 2 years it doesn't mean they can't move you every 3 months. For that matter they're free to send you to Iraq for your entire commitment if they want. This is an oranization where not listening to your superiors is actually a crime, so if you plan on being a Dr. Cox type you might want to look elsewhere.
3) You need to do your residency with the military unless they give you permission not to, and they will almost never give you that permission. First the military match has different odds than the civilian match. For EM in particular the military mach is way harder, Ortho on the other hand is a little easier. Also be aware that the military match works like the civilian match did over a generation ago: you apply for an intern year and then, when you're done with THAT you apply for a residency. This sounds reasonable except for the fact that a lot of Navy HPSP students (more than half) don't get a residency, at least not on their first try. They instead get to spend 2-4 years as a practcing physician in the military with only an intern year as training, known as a GMO tour. These tours are generally cool and are often a lot more specifically 'military' than what you'll do after you finish residency but it's also 2-4 years where you dont learn much and don't get paid much and your skills rot and it's an extra 4 years before you have the stability to actually stop moving every year or two and start a family


I'm an HPSP student and so far I feel like I made the right decision. Financially I go to one of the nation's most expensive schools, I'm interested in a low paying specialty (Psych), and honestly without the military I think I would actually have needed to do something I liked a lot less because there's no way I could have paid off my debts as a psychiatrist. It's also nice that military residencies pay twice as much so I may be able to buy a real house and start a real life before I finish that. Finally, and most importantly, I've always had a thing for the military and so far my few weeks of contact with the Navy have been the shinging spots of medical education. The residents and attendings are infinitely nicer and more relateable than anyone in any civilian hospital I've rotated at and it's a lot easier to stay motivated when you know that your patients are heros (or, at the worst, an E-2 trying to get out of a PFT) rather than addicts trying to scam narcs off of you. That being said I suppose it's easy to feel satisfied when I haven't made any sacrifices yet and I may change my tune after my first stay in a warzone or the first time the military mindlessly and needlessly F--ks my career.

My advice: don't do it if your school is cheap because there will be better opportunities to join later if you're not taking on a lot of debt. Also don't join unless you at least like the idea of a military life. I'm not saying you should have always fantasized about joining the Marines (though I did) but if you're the kind of person who considers Vietnam veterans war criminals and thinks of Soldiers as idiots then find someone else to work for. Also, plan on joining with the intention of deploying, because once you sign the papers you're not getting out of it.

Further advice: Consider all 3 services and read up on the relevant differences. If possible try to go to basic training before medical school starts. Finally get the ball rolling on your paperwork now as this might take a while and they do occasionally run out of scholarships. No signature counts except the last one on the actual contract, so it's in your best interest to submit your forms and go through medical processing early in case there's a problem to iron out.

Wow! Great thread. Thanks for all the insightful comments!

 

[DocBell]

1) For that matter is leaving on deployment for 8 months really that different from being estranged from the family you're actively living with during your intern year? If you're in medicine and your spouse won't follow you, and tolerate periodic absences from you, you're pretty much f-d no matter what.

Ummm yes. Not to minimize the plight of the deployed soldier but you are going and doing what you were trained to do in either case. for you it might not be that different (though with the increased danger and all the things you would miss at home I bet it would be). If you are an intern your spouse wont be spending every second of every day worried about your safety while trying to keep the family together and do the work of two parents. Your spouse will also be dealing with your kids who will be terrified when you are gone and from my observation be more likely to act out (cry more often that sort of thing). Deployment puts a huge strain on families. Soldiers are heros but so are there are their families. A deployment goes way beyond a spouse not tolerating a "periodic absence"