Military scholarship or massive debt??? Pros and cons.

[andiedb]

I am a first year medical student considering applying for the Air Force Health Scholarship. I would like to hear from someone who actually has experience in this...not a recruiter who is paid to make it sound wonderful.

I know the pay isn't as good but I am thinking the chance of getting a residency match will be greater through the military...am I wrong? Also, the thought of being almost $300k in debt is a bit scary especially when you see that it will be $600k by the time it is paid off.

On the other hand though, if I will be able to pay that off in less time than I would have to give Uncle Sam, would it be worth it?

Also wondering what chance there is for getting to have the residency you want? My first choice at the moment would be Radiological Oncology or somewhere in that field.

Any info would be appreciated. Thanks!

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[Brachyury]

There's a military medicine forum (the posters are current or former service members, and they'll be blunt about their experiences); their stickies at the top of their forum should be able to answer all of your questions

 

[alwaysaangel]

I am a first year medical student considering applying for the Air Force Health Scholarship. I would like to hear from someone who actually has experience in this...not a recruiter who is paid to make it sound wonderful.

I know the pay isn't as good but I am thinking the chance of getting a residency match will be greater through the military...am I wrong? Also, the thought of being almost $300k in debt is a bit scary especially when you see that it will be $600k by the time it is paid off.

On the other hand though, if I will be able to pay that off in less time than I would have to give Uncle Sam, would it be worth it?

Also wondering what chance there is for getting to have the residency you want? My first choice at the moment would be Radiological Oncology or somewhere in that field.

Any info would be appreciated. Thanks!

Haven't done it but looked into it extensively years ago before I started med school.

One thing to consider is you usually do not get to complete your preferred residency before paying back your military debt. You will usually do your intern year, become a licensed physician and they will send you where they want you to pay your 4 year debt. They don't need radiological oncologists in the military - they need GPs to handle basic medical problems on Navy ships etc.

Then when you finish your military time you can go back and complete the residency of your choosing.

Just something to consider. If you really want to specialize in medicine then you should make sure you're ok being a generalist for several years before you get there.

I don't like being told what to do or where to live. And the idea of being in a "job" that I can't quit for 4 years ultimately horrified me. I will happily pay back my 200k of debt to live the life I want. My life has been put on hold long enough for medicine. I didn't need to add 4 more years.

 

[da8s0859q]

I am a first year medical student considering applying for the Air Force Health Scholarship.

Also, the thought of being almost $300k in debt is a bit scary especially when you see that it will be $600k by the time it is paid off.

On the other hand though, if I will be able to pay that off in less time than I would have to give Uncle Sam, would it be worth it?

My first choice at the moment would be Radiological Oncology or somewhere in that field.

Any info would be appreciated. Thanks!

Keep in mind that I am not military -- just a very big fan of theirs. And I'm a lowly M2 at that, but one who still bats around the idea of going with a three-year HPSP.

First of all: read this. Might be worth your time.

That's a hell of a debt you'll be running, so yeah, I wouldn't blame you for wanting to go the HPSP route. Keep in mind, though, that things like this are only really "worth it" if you want to go the military route -- and you definitely should listen to Brachyury and go read the milmed forum a bit, because I think you'll find that even if the money part of things works out slightly in the military's advantage, your happiness / peace of mind is not entirely a matter of the size of your student loan statements. Required service, being under your service's thumb, deployments, all that... the most displeased tend to be the most vocal, but you'll get lots of voices of experience there.

Not sure about rad onc, but most med students change their mind at least once through med school. Just something to consider.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Haven't done it but looked into it extensively years ago before I started med school.

One thing to consider is you usually do not get to complete your preferred residency before paying back your military debt. You will usually do your intern year, become a licensed physician and they will send you where they want you to pay your 4 year debt. They don't need radiological oncologists in the military - they need GPs to handle basic medical problems on Navy ships etc.

Then when you finish your military time you can go back and complete the residency of your choosing.

Just something to consider. If you really want to specialize in medicine then you should make sure you're ok being a generalist for several years before you get there.

I don't like being told what to do or where to live. And the idea of being in a "job" that I can't quit for 4 years ultimately horrified me. I will happily pay back my 200k of debt to live the life I want. My life has been put on hold long enough for medicine. I didn't need to add 4 more years.

Keep in mind some civilian groups require at least six months notice 🙂

 

[alwaysaangel]

Keep in mind some civilian groups require at least six months notice 🙂

"Require" - if I walked away from that job I wouldn't have a good referral for my next employer. And if its a particularly small specialty maybe some people locally would know I did something "unprofessional."

If I walked away from a military job 6 mos early I would have a warrant out for my arrest.

Two very different things.

 

[colbgw02]

1) Go read the military medicine forum. There are a few black pearls being passed out there, but there are many more elsewhere (like on this thread).

2) Do not do it for the money. Apart from being miserable, you only come out ahead financially in the military in a few circumstances. If you stick with rad-onc, then you are much more likely to do better financially in civilian medicine.

 

[cpants]

I am a first year medical student considering applying for the Air Force Health Scholarship. I would like to hear from someone who actually has experience in this...not a recruiter who is paid to make it sound wonderful.

I know the pay isn't as good but I am thinking the chance of getting a residency match will be greater through the military...am I wrong? Also, the thought of being almost $300k in debt is a bit scary especially when you see that it will be $600k by the time it is paid off.

On the other hand though, if I will be able to pay that off in less time than I would have to give Uncle Sam, would it be worth it?

Also wondering what chance there is for getting to have the residency you want? My first choice at the moment would be Radiological Oncology or somewhere in that field.

Any info would be appreciated. Thanks!

Chances of a military residency in rad onc are slim to none. I believe there is only one program in the whole military residency system. You would likely have to do an internship, do your time, and then go into rad onc, which isn't the worst option, as rad onc would require you to do an internship prior to starting anyway, so you could hit the ground running as a PGY-2.

I wouldn't do this unless you really want to be in the military. The money is tempting, but we are talking about you being deployed to god-forsaken locations all over the world, months away from family and friends, possibly putting your life at risk. Your reason for doing this should be "I want to serve my country", not "I want to reduce my debt".

 

[MossPoh]

What that (^) person said. You don't have any better chances matching than civilian. Some specialities are tougher. You have limited programs and military programs tend to let MD/DO compete with less bias than standard allopathic match.

 

[Jorski]

http://halfmd.wordpress.com/

If you read the last post, he has some strong words about what you are thinking of doing.

 

[Psychiatrypd]

Be sure to investigate all branches of the service: I did that prior to choosing one of them. They have different types of patients, different locales, different patterns of injury and illness. Each one has a unique ethos. Army people are different than Navy people. The issue for you is not just military or no military. The issue is Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines. I never looked at Coast Guard but I would assume they hire physicians as well.

 

[colbgw02]

Be sure to investigate all branches of the service: I did that prior to choosing one of them. They have different types of patients, different locales, different patterns of injury and illness. Each one has a unique ethos. Army people are different than Navy people. The issue for you is not just military or no military. The issue is Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines. I never looked at Coast Guard but I would assume they hire physicians as well.

Just to clarify: the Marines get their docs from the Navy and the Coast Guard typically gets them from the Public Health Service.

 

[pgg]

I am a first year medical student considering applying for the Air Force Health Scholarship.

Heh, classic. 🙂

I am thinking the chance of getting a residency match will be greater through the military...am I wrong?

The answer is not simply yes or no here.

Some specialties are modestly competitive in the civilian world, and very competitive in the military (for example, ER & anesthesia). The flip is occasionally true, but not often enough that I'd name 'residency match advantage' as a pro to taking HPSP.

Because the n is small in the military residency programs, there is also a great deal of year-to-year variability in how competitive they are. Nationwide there are something like 1100 anesthesia slots. In the Navy we have 17. Fewer applicants, yes ... but some years there are 3 alternates, some years there are 33. This variability in competitiveness is not something you can control.

Also wondering what chance there is for getting to have the residency you want?

It depends on the residency. And realize that the great majority of us didn't wind up in the specialty we thought we were destined for as MS1s.

There is also such a thing as a GMO tour ...

My first choice at the moment would be Radiological Oncology or somewhere in that field.

Odds of that are very low.

 

[BlackFrancis33]

I would assume you mean radiation oncology, right? Radiologists are many things, but oncologists is not one of them. There is a radiation oncology residency at Walter Reed, 1-2 per year, with additional folks getting civilian deferal. It is competitive, but it is a very competitive specialty by all accounts. There are 2 hematology/oncology fellowships in the Army (I think), if you would consider the medical oncology field. I know of at least 2 surgical oncologists (general surgery + fellowship, there are probably more) and 1 neurosurgical oncologist. Bottom, line forget the Air Force and go Army. Kick a lot of a#@ and radiation oncology is a possibility.

 

[avatarftw]

Don't make the debt so emotional. Yes, you may pay 600,000 or whatever in ABSOLUTE dollars but the REAL value is much less. Rich people (smart) know how to manage debt to their advantage; if your loans are accruing at 6.8% and you can get an after-tax yield of greater than 6.8% than you are increasing your wealth.

Calculate how much money you will need to devote to your debt after medical school and keep in mind that the military salaries are MUCH less than civilian compensation for most fields. (not primary care) For example, if you become an anesthesiologist, radiologist, ER doctor, etc then you will be losing big time via the military.

Another factor is that the military pension is pretty nice; about 50,000 a year after doing 20 years of active duty. Keep in mind that you will have much less money accumulated due to lower military compensation.

National Guard has some great payback programs; 120,000 for a 3 years sign up for part-time duty.

I am a first year medical student considering applying for the Air Force Health Scholarship. I would like to hear from someone who actually has experience in this...not a recruiter who is paid to make it sound wonderful.

I know the pay isn't as good but I am thinking the chance of getting a residency match will be greater through the military...am I wrong? Also, the thought of being almost $300k in debt is a bit scary especially when you see that it will be $600k by the time it is paid off.

On the other hand though, if I will be able to pay that off in less time than I would have to give Uncle Sam, would it be worth it?

Also wondering what chance there is for getting to have the residency you want? My first choice at the moment would be Radiological Oncology or somewhere in that field.

Any info would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[alwaysaangel]

National Guard has some great payback programs; 120,000 for a 3 years sign up for part-time duty.

This is a great point! Payback programs are becoming more and more common, in parts of the service, areas of the country, etc.

There is really no reason to dedicate 4 years of your life so far in advance when you can just take the debt and if when you're done with med school and residency you are still freaked out by the debt and want to - you could always work out a 4 year contract payback program somewhere.

 

[notdeadyet]

National Guard has some great payback programs; 120,000 for a 3 years sign up for part-time duty.

Yes and no. You do get $120K/year in student loan repayment for three years of duty. But to join the National Guard, you commit to six years of drilling and two years of IRR.

And "part-time duty" is kind of passe right now. You are deployable for 90 days boots in sand every two years. I'm a big proponent of the National Guard (and am in it), but am also a big proponent of keeping it real. Signing up for any military payback right now without expecting to be deployed to a warzone at some point would be extremely foolish.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Yes and no. You do get $120K/year in student loan repayment for three years of duty. But to join the National Guard, you commit to six years of drilling and two years of IRR.

And "part-time duty" is kind of passe right now. You are deployable for 90 days boots in sand every two years. I'm a big proponent of the National Guard (and am in it), but am also a big proponent of keeping it real. Signing up for any military payback right now without expecting to be deployed to a warzone at some point would be extremely foolish.

Do you have a link with more info for the 6 year/2 year IRR? One is still able to do only 3 years and get $75,000 though, correct?
Also how does the whole "8 years commitment" work if one has already been AD 4 years and 4 years IRR enlisted?

 

[notdeadyet]

Do you have a link with more info for the 6 year/2 year IRR?

Nope. You should be able to google it or ask any recruiter.

Anyone joining the military, regardless of service or program, have to sign up for an 8 year Military Service Obligation (MSO). Of that 8 year MSO, how long you actually serve depends on your contract. If you find a deal to enlist in the infantry for three years, you'll serve three years active duty, but still have 5 more years MSO, which most people serve in the Individual Ready Reserve (IRR). The IRR has no commitment other than keeping the military up to date on your address with the risk of being called up for active duty. Happens for combat troops during this war, haven't heard confirmation of it happening for doctors.

For the National Guard, the standard contract is 6 years of drilling. The other two years of your MSO you can keep drilling or go on IRR.

One is still able to do only 3 years and get $75,000 though, correct?

If you sign up cold, you sign up for an 8 year MSO and 6 years of drilling. During that six years of drilling, provided you're board eligible/board certified, you can take either the $40K/year for loans (HPLRP) or the $25K Special Pay.

Also how does the whole "8 years commitment" work if one has already been AD 4 years and 4 years IRR enlisted?

Ah, if you've already burned up your MSO? In that case, you shouldn't incur another 8 year MSO. I don't know if you could negotiate for a three year contract, or if they'd still require you to sign up for the standard 6 years drilling. I'd contact a recruiter.

 

[avatarftw]

My point is that you don't have to go through the military match and risk not getting your specialty. Last time I checked, the air force and navy had a very low percentage of people matching compared to the civilian match. An army program director told me in person that the army was different from the other branches.

Also, you are not guaranteed to be deploying in the National Guard whereas you will be making a lot less money (in most cases) as an active duty doctor. I'm just speaking from a financial perspective, not from a touchy feely, I get warm sensations in my belly for serving the country point of view.

It should be noted that if you deploy for 90 days in those two years (I thought it was 18 months?) you will be losing income in your hospital or private-practice position.

I'm just amazed at how bad many health professionals are at managing money.

Yes and no. You do get $120K/year in student loan repayment for three years of duty. But to join the National Guard, you commit to six years of drilling and two years of IRR.

And "part-time duty" is kind of passe right now. You are deployable for 90 days boots in sand every two years. I'm a big proponent of the National Guard (and am in it), but am also a big proponent of keeping it real. Signing up for any military payback right now without expecting to be deployed to a warzone at some point would be extremely foolish.

 

[notdeadyet]

My point is that you don't have to go through the military match and risk not getting your specialty. Last time I checked, the air force and navy had a very low percentage of people matching compared to the civilian match.

Well, with Navy and AF, you run a real risk of doing a GMO tour that interrupts your training. But folks don't have a inherently lower match percentage. It varies a lot by year and sometimes the competitive specialties are moreso than civilian side but sometimes less so.

An army program director told me in person that the army was different from the other branches.

The Army's bigger, so you have less risk of a GMO tour. Some specialties are easier some years and some harder compared to civilian side. Some are consistently more competitive (EM comes to mind).

It should be noted that if you deploy for 90 days in those two years (I thought it was 18 months?) you will be losing income in your hospital or private-practice position.

The deployment tempo varies. 18-24 months is a good yardstick.

When you're deployed, you make milmed salary. Some employers apparently make up the difference, but I'd guess they're extremely rare.

I'd be very careful about joining the National Guard or Reserves with the intention of opening a solo or joining a small practice.