Millionaire Psychologists

[zerosumgame]

Hey

Newbie on the board!

I'm an undergrad right now, and I was having a chat with one of my profs (who is a bit cranky at the best of times) and we were talking about the subject of Psychology. I can't remember exactly how we got on to the subject, but he said that no Psychologist he ever met or knows of (he seems to be well connected) is a millionaire.

I figured I would see it as a alittle challenge and tried searching google for millionaire psychologist (and various variations). I came up with almost nothing. There was maybe one link that confirmed there existed a millionaire psychologist years ago, but now there doens't seem to be any.

I'm wondering if google just ins't picking any up. I know Dr Phil is a multi-millionaire, but even he didn't come up. What gives? Putting in various other careers actually yields wealthy individuals, but not so with anything Psychology. I think that I probably don't know much about the histroy of the field, and maybe some other (far) more educated people can share their experiences and if they have ever found anything that I have searched for.

I have chose this path out of interest, and that comes first. However I like being my own boss, and becoming very wealthy is a top 3 goal for me. It probably creates a bit of a problem as the field is a caring one, but I don't see why it isn't possible.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks.

Z

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[PsychHeel]

Very simple answer: don't go into psychology if your "top 3 goal" is becoming very wealthy. You will be very disappointed. Psychologists can certainly make decent livings, and depending on your position and how enterprising you are, can make a very nice living (over 100K). However, the median income (at least for a clinical psychologist, according to the national figures I've seen) lands in the 80s, and that's after hefty graduate training.
Really, your one shot at becoming rich is if you become the next Dr. Phil (not likely or necessarily desirable -- he lost his license for ethical violations and makes questionable decisions at times, I'd argue) or independently develop some instrument that becomes absolutely invaluable and used everywhere.
Again, if your ultimate goals are really what you state in your post, this is the wrong field for you. Perhaps as you progress through your undergraduate studies, you'll realize that either a) psychology really isn't what you're most interested in, or b) becoming rich isn't what you're most interested in.

Hey

Newbie on the board!

I'm an undergrad right now, and I was having a chat with one of my profs (who is a bit cranky at the best of times) and we were talking about the subject of Psychology. I can't remember exactly how we got on to the subject, but he said that no Psychologist he ever met or knows of (he seems to be well connected) is a millionaire.

I figured I would see it as a alittle challenge and tried searching google for millionaire psychologist (and various variations). I came up with almost nothing. There was maybe one link that confirmed there existed a millionaire psychologist years ago, but now there doens't seem to be any.

I'm wondering if google just ins't picking any up. I know Dr Phil is a multi-millionaire, but even he didn't come up. What gives? Putting in various other careers actually yields wealthy individuals, but not so with anything Psychology. I think that I probably don't know much about the histroy of the field, and maybe some other (far) more educated people can share their experiences and if they have ever found anything that I have searched for.

I have chose this path out of interest, and that comes first. However I like being my own boss, and becoming very wealthy is a top 3 goal for me. It probably creates a bit of a problem as the field is a caring one, but I don't see why it isn't possible.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks.

Z

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

There are probably a few dozen millionaire psychologists....but none made their money doing clinical work. I'd guess that 99.9% of them own consulting firms that do I/O work or they own large Doc in a Box operations that employ a ton of contract employees. The other 0.1% probably live off royalities related to books, assessments, and/or lucrative research gigs. You'd have a better chance of catching a unicorn than being in the latter group.

Psychology is NOT the field to go into if you want to make money. A handful of my friends went into Investment Banking and made their first million before any of my other friends combined who went to medical school, law school, business school, etc. Unless you have broad market appeal (best selling author/NYT Best Seller) or have a very lucrative niche (work with Corps. that pay consulting fees starting in the 6-figures)....you'll never have that kind of lifestyle. If you want to get into the 7 figures, you need to own a business and you need to grow it.

 

[IOPsych]

There are probably a few dozen millionaire psychologists....but none made their money doing clinical work. I'd guess that 99.9% of them own consulting firms that do I/O work or they own large Doc in a Box operations that employ a ton of contract employees. The other 0.1% probably live off royalities related to books, assessments, and/or lucrative research gigs. You'd have a better chance of catching a unicorn than being in the latter group.

Psychology is NOT the field to go into if you want to make money. A handful of my friends went into Investment Banking and made their first million before any of my other friends combined who went to medical school, law school, business school, etc. Unless you have broad market appeal (best selling author/NYT Best Seller) or have a very lucrative niche (work with Corps. that pay consulting fees starting in the 6-figures)....you'll never have that kind of lifestyle. If you want to get into the 7 figures, you need to own a business and you need to grow it.

Yeah I would agree with this. There are probably plenty of millionaire clinical psychologists but most of them moved into the business sector. I know of a few that were very high up in consulting firms that obtained their PhD in clinical. It actually sets them up well for executive coaching, which is quickly becoming a very lucrative field. If your goal is to make money with a psychology degree you would be better off looking into human factors/ I/O and possibly consulting or working directly for an organization.

 

[edieb]

Actually, my major professor in graduate school was a millionaire. However, like others have mentioned, he did not make his money through clinical work but primarily via test development and construction. His measures, peer -reviewed research and faculty appointments (e.g., Yale, Western Psychiatric) made his quite famous in psychiatry and psychology. Additionally, he consulted at psychiatric hospitals and expert witness testimony for lawyers to supplement his income.

He always told us that there is no money in clinical work and that to focus on areas of strength for psychologists, such as peer reviewed research (to make your name known in the field) and when your name is know, to develop innovative and important tests and measures in that area.

However, with the advent of RxP, I think more opportunities to become wealthy are presenting themselves. The set-up many medical psychologists in LA are using is utilizing a master's level clinician to administer tests in your private practice while you do a combo of therapy and med checks for an entirely different group of patients (for returning patients). At the end of the day, you correct and sign off on reports and have earned two streams of income all day: One from the testing and one from your therapy and prescribing.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I've given lectures about the limitations of our billing model in psychology, and how those who choose to only function within it are artificially limiting their earning potential. Building in both passive and active streams of income will help circumvent the earning ceiling for a psychologist, though it requires much more business sense and risk than most psychologists are willing to tolerate.

 

[AlaskanJustin]

There are probably a few dozen millionaire psychologists....but none made their money doing clinical work. I'd guess that 99.9% of them own consulting firms that do I/O work or they own large Doc in a Box operations that employ a ton of contract employees. The other 0.1% probably live off royalities related to books, assessments, and/or lucrative research gigs. You'd have a better chance of catching a unicorn than being in the latter group.

Psychology is NOT the field to go into if you want to make money. A handful of my friends went into Investment Banking and made their first million before any of my other friends combined who went to medical school, law school, business school, etc. Unless you have broad market appeal (best selling author/NYT Best Seller) or have a very lucrative niche (work with Corps. that pay consulting fees starting in the 6-figures)....you'll never have that kind of lifestyle. If you want to get into the 7 figures, you need to own a business and you need to grow it.

I thought everyone learned in undergrad the infamous storry of John Watson??? moral to the story is, get kicked out of academy, take your work to the I/O industrial level and make a million, worked for him...

 

[medium rare]

I know at least 5 psychologists in my area who have a net worth in excess of 1 million. They are not prescribing or working in I/0. They are general private practice clinicians who spend most of their day doing therapy and testing. They are prudent with their money and invest methodically and wisely. My net worth surpassed 1 million a couple years ago and I did this by living frugally and investing the majority of my income - and this did not take decades.

I agree, if you take a salaried position and call it good, you are unlikely to see a million plus net worth. However, if you go into private practice and have some business sense about you, you can do quite well. Even a psychologist working heavily with insurance and managed care can net 125K annually if they work full time and at least 48 weeks a year. If you do cash and carry, your net income can easily be >200k. If you blow this or buy items that just depreciate (fancy cars, clothes, vacations, etc) and don't invest - you will never be financially stable let alone wealthy.

The hardest part for me was resisting the urge to spend this money after years of indentured servitude as a graduate student, intern, and postdoc. But, once I saw the magic of capitalized interest do its thing, it was much easier to resist the urge to spend frivolously.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I know at least 5 psychologists in my area who have a net worth in excess of 1 million.

Even a psychologist working heavily with insurance and managed care can net 125K annually if they work full time and at least 48 weeks a year. If you do cash and carry, your net income can easily be >200k.

I should have qualified my statement a bit, as I was looking at "millionaire" as investments over $1m (excluding house, as many people are "house poor" in today's economy) and making an annual salary well into the 6 figures.

Private practice can still be lucrative, as medium rare mentioned. I know a few practitioners who gross ~$250k, though they are in major cities so I'm not sure what they net after the crazy $/sq. ft pricing.

As for compound interest...I'm not a fan of it until I have $0 in loans. However, I am all about tax shelters and multiple income streams.

 

[erg923]

I thought everyone learned in undergrad the infamous storry of John Watson??? moral to the story is, get kicked out of academy, take your work to the I/O industrial level and make a million, worked for him...

I dont think my wife would like the having an affair part though....doh!

 

[erg923]

I always get a kick out of someones who's states that a priority in life is to become "extremely weallthy".... Not financially "secure" or "comfortable"...but "wealthy." I think Lewis Black had a comment that I have always admired that went soemthing to the affect of....

"I'm a socialist, so that puts me totally outside any concept...the Canadians get it. But seriously, most people don't get it. The idea of capping people's income just scares people. 'Oh, you're taking money from the rich.' Ooh, what a horrifying thing. These people really need $200 million".

 

[rmbsstock]

out

 

[Knights24]

A professor of mine, and one of the best men I've ever met, was a millionaire. But like everyone else said, he wasn't clinical. He got a higher (can't remember whether it was MA or PhD) degree in engineering, then his PhD in Human Factors psychology.

Needless to say he was stupidly smart, and worked in Aviation psychology where he invented many things that are a common place by the military today. With all those patents, he definitely had over a million.

 

[Aura5]

Really, your one shot at becoming rich is if you become the next Dr. Phil (not likely or necessarily desirable -- he lost his license for ethical violations and makes questionable decisions at times, I'd argue)

He did? Lost his license for ethical violations? Good! He's a ding dong. I used to think he was okay way-back-when, but the more recent shows I've watched (probably over a year ago) are just stupid. He talks to each person for three seconds, hollers at them, offers no solution and moves on to the next. There's nothing to even be learned from his show.

I remember a particular show that was interesting...the guest was an exhibitionist, and went on the show to try to promote awareness about that paraphilia, to encourage the possible others in the viewing audience hiding in shame with the same condition to seek help/counseling and have hope. But Dr. Phil turned the show around to exploiting the guy, poking holes in everything the guy said, etc. I mean the guy was sort of being dishonest here and there...but you could tell...or at least I could...that he was really trying to get a grip on things and trying to spread the word. Dr. Phil just kept emphasizing the recidivism of that behavior, basically shooting down the guy's hope of ever recovering, which defeated his whole point of coming on the show. And he waited till the last 10 minutes to drop the bomb publically that he the guy had "acted" on it within the past months, even after the therapy. Again, it was exploitative. It's like he did it just to make the guy look like a total jerk. The guy was pretty angry too.

I was definitely disenchanted with Dr. Phil after that show. Any shred of value I might have had in him disintegrated after I saw how he exploited that guy. I don't know, something about how I thought psychologists were supposed to be concerned with people's well-being??

 

[deleted176373]

And Dr. Phil still got to speak at APA 2007 after accepting a lifetime achievement award. See, even if you lose your license you can still be a millionaire Psychologist.

Mark

 

[JockNerd]

And Dr. Phil still got to speak at APA 2007 after accepting a lifetime achievement award. See, even if you lose your license you can still be a millionaire Psychologist.

Mark

Questionable ethics, and being willing to do things that those of us who actually value our integrity and honor are unwilling to do, generally pays pretty well in psychology (e.g., Dr. Phil & Seligman) as well as every other field.

 

[lamorena]

Questionable ethics, and being willing to do things that those of us who actually value our integrity and honor are unwilling to do, generally pays pretty well in psychology (e.g., Dr. Phil & Seligman) as well as every other field.

why do you say seligman? because of the learned helplessness experiments? or +psych? personally, i think +psych is an important area of the field. however, as someone who is very devoted to animal rights, i HATE the learned helplessness studies. horrible. THAT is questionable ethics right there!! so, if you are talking about that, i'm adding harlow to the list, for the horrible things he did to those baby monkeys (altho i don't know if he was a millionaire). i love psychology, and am extremely passionate about it, but all of the animal studies that are undeniably cruel and inhumane make me cringe and conflict with my core beliefs. i believe that animals should not be used for ANY experimentation at all. i know a lot of people disagree, but that is my personal belief.

 

[JockNerd]

why do you say seligman? because of the learned helplessness experiments? or +psych?

No; his apparent (but denied) involvement with instructing military personnel on how to torture people with project SERE. There was a big NPR broadcast about this.

 

[phillydave]

No; his apparent (but denied) involvement with instructing military personnel on how to torture people with project SERE. There was a big NPR broadcast about this.

Wowww... I never heard about that

 

[psybee]

I've given lectures about the limitations of our billing model in psychology, and how those who choose to only function within it are artificially limiting their earning potential. Building in both passive and active streams of income will help circumvent the earning ceiling for a psychologist, though it requires much more business sense and risk than most psychologists are willing to tolerate.

Speaking of non-clinical ways to make $$, if you were to write a book on this topic I'd buy it!

 

[lamorena]

Wowww... I never heard about that

me neither! well, i guess unfortunately, there are people with questionable ethical standards in every field.

 

[Retnuhrace]

What about guys like Zimbardo, who are nationally famous in the field who have written books and appeared on television shows?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Speaking of non-clinical ways to make $$, if you were to write a book on this topic I'd buy it!

I'll probably be developing a more in-depth presentation on the options, with a goal of having enough content for a 1/2 day seminar. No sense selling a pub. for $10-$15 when I can sell a presentation for $100+/head.

 

[erg923]

What about guys like Zimbardo, who are nationally famous in the field who have written books and appeared on television shows?

No idea how much money he makes, and although her has illuminated some important truths in social psychology, I believe much of his work is over celebrated and overly sensationalized. Some of it sufers from questionable methodology as well.

 

[zerosumgame]

Hi again.

I don't want to offend anyone, but it seems that whenever anyone mentions making lots of money in this field it seems to leave a bad taste in the mouth. I can understand it to a point, but I don't think that caring for patients and becoming wealthy from it have to be mutually exclusive. There probably are a lot of people out there who seek to cash in on misery and fleece the ill, and saying that I'm not one of them probably doesn't cut it. (I'm not btw. ) I have chosen this subject because out of all the choices (Investment B, Law, Finance) I am very interested in it and want to combine my goals with my interests. It would be pointless to be in some other field, and I wouldn't do it, although I am very interested in making large sums of money. So I am sticking with Psychology. Which means looking to make as much as I can within the field.

With that in mind, IO looks like something I will be giving serious consideration to and researching. I have strong bent for Technology as well, so anything that mixes with that will be gravy.

I would like to send a few PM's to some members in this thread if that is ok?

Thanks.

 

[rmbsstock]

out

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

*MOD NOTE: I moved the SERE discussion HERE. -t4c*

 

[deleted176373]

*MOD NOTE: I moved the SERE discussion HERE. -t4c*

Thanks, I was thinking it needed to be split out.

 

[PHinisheD]

Hi again.

I don't want to offend anyone, but it seems that whenever anyone mentions making lots of money in this field it seems to leave a bad taste in the mouth. I can understand it to a point, but I don't think that caring for patients and becoming wealthy from it have to be mutually exclusive. There probably are a lot of people out there who seek to cash in on misery and fleece the ill, and saying that I'm not one of them probably doesn't cut it. (I'm not btw. ) I have chosen this subject because out of all the choices (Investment B, Law, Finance) I am very interested in it and want to combine my goals with my interests. It would be pointless to be in some other field, and I wouldn't do it, although I am very interested in making large sums of money. So I am sticking with Psychology. Which means looking to make as much as I can within the field.

With that in mind, IO looks like something I will be giving serious consideration to and researching. I have strong bent for Technology as well, so anything that mixes with that will be gravy.

I would like to send a few PM's to some members in this thread if that is ok?

Thanks.

As a clinical psych grad, I applaud your willingness to talk about money. Most psych students are averse to the topic, and that really leaves us at a disadvantage once we graduate and realize that, whether we are chasing grants or marketing to new clients, we need to pay the bills.

If you have an interest in business, I'd definitely encourage you to look into I/O programs. Also, you might consider looking into subfields of business that have a behavioral/psychological bent (e.g., Marketing, Organizational Development, Behavioral Economics). In my grad school, we shared a lot of psych electives with B school PhD students, as they were required to take a lot of psych classes. Those folks do some really cool research that is basically psychology, and they go on to earn bank as B school professors, consultants, and other jobs in government and industry.

Hope this helps.

 

[JockNerd]

I have a problem with the idea that living well is somehow antithetical to practicing psychology. It isn't immoral to expect to do well for oneself after spending a decade in school, and there's nothing enlightened about being a miser. There's no other helping profession in which people seem so willing to accrue so much debt and work for so little money (witness the Social Work and Nursing lobbies fighting hard for much more money).

 

[PHinisheD]

JockNerd, I totally agree. We'd be smart to focus more on how we can make a good living in this profession. Why are psychologists underpaid? I think there are (at least) two things going on here. One is that psychologists are relatively uncomfortable and, perhaps, ill-equipped at talking about and dealing with money. Psychology practice selects for people who value cooperation over competition, and a focus on profit doesn't jibe with our self-image.

The other issue is that because of market forces, it is increasingly difficult to make a good living as a practitioner. Yet our profession doesn't seem to have a plan to deal with this. Social workers do therapy more cheaply, and MD's can write scripts at their leisure. We're doing a poor job of making a case for our services. But I digress...

 

[TheIceman79]

millionaire psychologist is a good example of an oxymoron!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

One is that psychologists are relatively uncomfortable and, perhaps, ill-equipped at talking about and dealing with money. Psychology practice selects for people who value cooperation over competition, and a focus on profit doesn't jibe with our self-image.

Excellent points.

One of my biggest concerns before leaving my prior career was the general passivity in how the profession interacts in the business arena. I've talked to a great number of psychologists over the past 6-7 years about the "business side", and most were not as well informed as I had hoped. On the other hand, I see the passivity as an opportunity for those of us who are more knowledgable in the business arena.

The other issue is that because of market forces, it is increasingly difficult to make a good living as a practitioner. Yet our profession doesn't seem to have a plan to deal with this. Social workers do therapy more cheaply, and MD's can write scripts at their leisure. We're doing a poor job of making a case for our services. But I digress...

Encroachment and diminishing reimbursements are my two areas of greatest concern. Most likely I'll be looking to decrease my direct clinical services as I get more established in the field, because there just isn't money in it. I feel bad for practitioners who have to grind it out, but there are other opportunities available to those who are willing to push/work for them.

 

[robinsena]

I agree there's nothing wrong with wanting to be financially secure, but there's a big difference between 'financially secure' and 'very wealthy' imo. It is striking that being wealthy still equates to being happy and healthy in our society when that's not the case.

So what I think is intriguing about the original question is not so much the statement that "living well is antithetical to being a psychologist," but the specific desire to be "very wealthy." Anyway, I better take off my therapist cap before I get in trouble!

 

[Annakei]

JockNerd, I totally agree. We'd be smart to focus more on how we can make a good living in this profession. Why are psychologists underpaid?

Social workers do therapy more cheaply, and MD's can write scripts at their leisure. We're doing a poor job of making a case for our services. But I digress...

Re: Social Workers, this is largely incorrect. Have you actually checked what social workers charge in private practice? I don't know any and I have not seen any in my area that charge less than $100 per session. They range from $100-$140 per session. I know and have seen more psychologists charging less than that because they feel badly about charging so much for services.

 

[PsychHeel]

To make myself clear (I believe I was the first person to respond to the original poster), I am not against psychologists being paid well for their services, and I am certainly not against psychologists making a good living. However, as another poster has mentioned, there is a difference between making a good living, being fairly compensated, and being "extremely wealthy." It seems as though this might be a case of someone posting and asking a question, not to really get a true answer, but to get the answer he or she wants.
Besides, what do you even mean by "millionaire psychologist"? Someone who has a million dollars in investments when they retire? Someone who makes a million a year? Huge, huge difference.

 

[mintleif]

do a search on millionaire pharmacists and let me know what you come up with (kidding)

 

[PHinisheD]

Re: Social Workers, this is largely incorrect. Have you actually checked what social workers charge in private practice? I don't know any and I have not seen any in my area that charge less than $100 per session. They range from $100-$140 per session. I know and have seen more psychologists charging less than that because they feel badly about charging so much for services.

No, it's not incorrect. While it's true that some social workers can make a comparable hourly wage via cash pay patients, insurance companies and healthcare systems reimburse social workers and other master's level practitioners at a lower rate for their services than are psychologists. And, they tend to make lower salaries for comparable positions in hospital systems like the VA. As much we are underpaid, they are horribly underpaid!

Interesting article on this:

http://www.thenationalcoalition.org/IvanMillerReimbursement.htm

He disagrees with me on the "market forces" question. That's okay. Honestly, understanding how income levels relate to market forces in the current healthcare system is a job for an economist--no, a Nobel prize-winning economist.

 

[PHinisheD]

One other thing about that article:

Psychologists' mean salaries for office practitioners: $69K
Psychiatrists' mean salaries: $147K

Give that one a long, hard think.

 

[IOPsych]

Hi again.

I don't want to offend anyone, but it seems that whenever anyone mentions making lots of money in this field it seems to leave a bad taste in the mouth. I can understand it to a point, but I don't think that caring for patients and becoming wealthy from it have to be mutually exclusive. There probably are a lot of people out there who seek to cash in on misery and fleece the ill, and saying that I'm not one of them probably doesn't cut it. (I'm not btw. ) I have chosen this subject because out of all the choices (Investment B, Law, Finance) I am very interested in it and want to combine my goals with my interests. It would be pointless to be in some other field, and I wouldn't do it, although I am very interested in making large sums of money. So I am sticking with Psychology. Which means looking to make as much as I can within the field.

With that in mind, IO looks like something I will be giving serious consideration to and researching. I have strong bent for Technology as well, so anything that mixes with that will be gravy.

I would like to send a few PM's to some members in this thread if that is ok?

Thanks.

If you are into technology as well I would look into human factors psychology. They do a lot of work with the user friendliness of software, military work with drones, and all the computer/human interaction stuff. I had an internship with the military this summer and they joked about how they used to employ mostly engineers and the engineers would build the planes/ships/etc. the most efficient way possible, but people would not be able to use them. So they have begun to employ an equal number of psychologists and they work on almost all projects together.

 

[deleted176373]

If you are into technology as well I would look into human factors psychology. They do a lot of work with the user friendliness of software, military work with drones, and all the computer/human interaction stuff. I had an internship with the military this summer and they joked about how they used to employ mostly engineers and the engineers would build the planes/ships/etc. the most efficient way possible, but people would not be able to use them. So they have begun to employ an equal number of psychologists and they work on almost all projects together.

Don't think for a minute that the employ anywhere near the number of psychologists as they do engineers. They employ thousands of engineers.. they employ hundreds of psychologists.

Mark

PS - However I am happy to be on the track to being a military psychologist.

 

[Annakei]

No, it's not incorrect. While it's true that some social workers can make a comparable hourly wage via cash pay patients, insurance companies and healthcare systems reimburse social workers and other master's level practitioners at a lower rate for their services than are psychologists. And, they tend to make lower salaries for comparable positions in hospital systems like the VA. As much we are underpaid, they are horribly underpaid!

Interesting article on this:

http://www.thenationalcoalition.org/IvanMillerReimbursement.htm

He disagrees with me on the "market forces" question. That's okay. Honestly, understanding how income levels relate to market forces in the current healthcare system is a job for an economist--no, a Nobel prize-winning economist.

Ha! The difference on insurance panels is actually around $10-$15 an hour, do a search on the board for the link to recent insurance reimbursement rates comparing MA vs doc level clinicians.

Furthermore, I addressed the rate in private practice, not working for an employer. Within the VA, of course the scope of practice is different, given the difference in training, but I addressed private practice where social workers do on average charge at least $100+ per hour.