Minorities

[Jules718]

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Hello...my question to anyone who can answer me is what is still considered a minority? I know that today underrepresented minorites are those who are hispanic or native american. I am Vietnamese/female. I have heard that sometimes being asian isn't considered a minority, but if a school was to look at each asian separately, then most are chinese. Do I have any advantage?

 

[atchoo]

No, being Vietnamese will render you no distinct "advantage" in the admissions process. If we were to establish distinctions to that extent, we would have to differentiate between Caucasians who have a German heritage vs. Caucasians who have a French heritage vs. etc. and etc. And then consider the amount of "mutts" (people who have an amalgam of Scottish, French, Italian, etc. blood) -- what a mess that differentiation would be. The only break that will be made at most schools is between Underrepresented Minorities (URMs) and Non-URMs. This is not to say that you won't be classed with Asians when they're deciding between 2 applicants for a spot. If they have an Asian Biochem major with similar stats and qualifications as an Asian English major, you better believe they're going with the option that will promote the most diversity in the class.

The admissions game is tough to figure out. All I can say for sure is that I have witnessed "lower-caliber" URMs being accepted at places where "higher-caliber" asians/whites were being turned down. Diversity is important in a medical school entering class, so I don't fault the system at all.

IMHO, as an Asian applicant, you better differentiate yourself from most other Asian applicants -- most have high stats and great exposure to medicine: you'll need something more to make yourself stand out.

Good luck.

AAAATCHHOOOOOOOOO
UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN '04

 

[wacko]

I totally agree with achoo...
I remember addressed this question to a med. school admission committee member and was told that the ratio of Vietnamese doctors per population is high, especially in California. The question is not "why aren't you considered a minority when it comes to applying to med. school?" but "why should you?"

Nguyen

[This message has been edited by wacko (edited 03-11-2000).]

 

[Jules718]

Thanks for your thoughts. I know that the population of Vietnamese is very high in California...but I am on the east coast and don't intend on applying to any schools on the West Coast (not that it makes a difference). I think that before I even posted the question, I already knew the answer. The admissions process is so complicated I think no one can figure it out.

 

[TQL]

If you're an asian, you have to compete with other asians, no matter what heritage you have. Statistics showed that GPA and MCAT for matriculated asian applicants are slightly higher than other people, so prepare yourself well! Good luck

 

[IQ]

Atchoo:
You would be surprised how many of your regarded 'low-caliber NRMs' can turn out to become high achievers. What a travesty--get an education, my friend!

"The substance of intolerance is inspired by insidious. . . unrevealing ignorance." M. Gandhi.


[This message has been edited by IQ (edited 03-12-2000).]

 

[atchoo]

Woah, take it easy...

Don't interpret what I said -- take it at face value. All I said was that I've seen "lower-caliber" URMs (relatively lower stats, lower qualifications) get admitted over "higher-caliber" non-URMs (relatively higher stats, higher qualifications). I hinted at the fact that I support AA because it grants diversity to a medical school entering class. I surely have NO doubt that some of those AA admits turn out to be superior med students.

I've had a great education thus far, thank you...and I'll have a excellent one in med school.

Good luck to you.

AAAATCHHHOOOOOOOO
UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN '04

[This message has been edited by atchoo (edited 03-12-2000).]

 

[ana]

Jules,
These are the only groups currently considered to be underrepresented minorities in medicine:

African American, Puerto Rican natives, Alaskan/Native American (with documented tribal affiliation), and Mexican Hispanics. If you happen to be from the Marianas Islands, then you can also be up for special admissions at the Univ of Hawaii. There are no Asians whatsoever considered for minority admissions. Whether or not you are a minority depends on your represenation in the medical profession, and not on your representation in the general population. If you are a California state resident, it will be possible for you to score as many points as a non-minority if you happened to live in low income communities and can demonstrate that you have had economic/social disadvantages. This is due to state legislatin (prop 187) that made it illegal to consider admissions based solely on ethnicity. Admissions are now based on criteria such as income, zip codes of where you grew up, high school where you graduated, etc. UC schools are hoping that by using these criteria, they will still catch many of the "minorities" they desire, however, there are many Asians, Caucasians, and other ethnicies that meet these criteria, and it has made it somewhat easier to get into a UC -- not that it is easy mind you... just easier to get more points.

 

[Jules718]

Thanks Ana for your reply. Actually, I am not a California Resident. I am a NY state resident. I am just really stressing out because the competition up here is tremendous, and I fear that I won't get in. I really want to go south (on the coast)but most of those schools are public and heavily favor state residency.

 

[Sheon]

Jules718,

SUNY-Syracuse is right near you, and it isn't as competitive as its East Coast Cousins. You also might want to consider NY Med and Albany. While their stats may look high (depending on where you are statistically). They are very NY friendly.

If you are trying to get into medical school NY residence gives you among the best chances for admission. Hang in there.

[This message has been edited by Sheon (edited 03-13-2000).]

 

[Jules718]

Thanks Sheon for your reply. I have looked into the SUNY schools and you can bet that I will be applying to all of them. I figure if anything my best chance is getting into a SUNY school. And if I get in, I'll be perfectly happy.

 

[richierich]

I have a question, why do not we eliminate all race and gender identifiers on the applications, letting the highest qualified applicants into the schools. Is this not what we have been working towards for so many years?

just a thought,

Richard


PS I just wanted justify my comments by adding that I have been ecouraged to establish my native american ancestry (as I am 1/4 Seminole indian) in order to give me an 'advantage' in the application process. I have refused to do so, I want to accomplish my goals by the sweat of my brow not the blood that flows through my veins or the fact that I have high cheek bones and a permenant tan.

Myself, I also come from a low income home and have busted my a** to get where I am today. It disgusts me that someone with similar qualifications and who comes form a similar socioeconomic situation will get additional consideration just because I chose use my merits and not my heritage.

I really feel that persons can abuse AA and as seen previously in this post are trying to take advantage of the system.

I would also like to say that I do feel that AA had its time and place but it is time to put it to bed, slowly, but to bed.

Some minorities will say 'you do not know what it feels like to be discrimanted against' but they would be wrong. I look at the lists of scholarships that most orginizations offer and the majority I am excluded from because my race, gender, or both. Even when I first applied to undergrad school, I was waitlisted at my first choice and all that anyone would ask me was " is there any ethnicity that you can claim, this would help you because you are on the bubble and it would push you over.

I guess I will stop ranting now.

Again,

Richard


[This message has been edited by richierich (edited 03-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by richierich (edited 03-15-2000).]

 

[Jules718]

Richard-
I understand exactly what it is you are saying. I don't think that ethnic background should be used as a deciding factor either. Because I am asian, I have to compete against all the other asians. I think that is unfair because I should be competing against everyone. I also don't understand universities such as Howard, which are predominantly African American. Their standards seem lower, GPA and MCAT wise. It seems as even if you were only boarderline, that you would still get in as long as you were a minority. What about all those highly qualified caucasians etc. Oh well, just my thought for the day.

 

[Eeyore]

Some of you (particularly richierich and jules) need some exposure to what it has been like and what it is like to be African-American. Please take some history and sociology lessons, and you will understand that racism is so intertwined in our society's infrastructure that programs like AA and universities like Howard are still necessary to combat it. When the day comes that the medical student population ACCURATELY reflects the population of the U.S. is when we can say that it is time to put AA to bed.

 

[Joe]

It seems like all the whiners about affirmative action are the ones who didn't get in or just a borderline applicant.
I personally don't care about it. If you want to get into a med school, boost up your GPA and MCAT and worry less about how other's are getting in. Focus on yourself, don't blame others.
Some might think AA is not fair, but life is not fair. So live with it.

 

[richierich]

Eeyore,

You are absolutely right about the need for AA. Specifically, in history books and sociology text. AA has been effective but like I have said before it is time to put it to bed. The proper action now is for leaders of our youth to stop crying about discrimination and encourage them to take advantage of the opportunities available and prosper.

Ex.. I live in the state of Florida and our govenor has recently enacted some legislation called the 'One Florida Plan' with the intention to eliminate quotas. In the education system it means that instead of entrance to the state university system having certain quotas for minorities, the top 20% of each high schools' graduating will be automatically into any state university. Rev. Jessie Jackson comes here to protest the plan rather than saying to the youth of Florida it is time to show this state just what you can do but complain.

Personally, I agree with the plan. If you cannot graduate in the top 20% of your own peers then maybe you should first take some classes in the CC ranks to get your feet wet before jumping in head first.

Answer honestly now, if Rev. Jackson did not "Fight" against "discrimination would he still have a political career. Is his intentions honest? I do not know.

Now,I ask the question, is it the proper way to eliminate discrimiation by using a system that discriminates against another? (two wrongs making a right) 2. Would not the best way to eliminate these problems is to motivate young people to give their best?


Richard
USF 04

[This message has been edited by richierich (edited 03-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by richierich (edited 03-16-2000).]

 

[richierich]

Joe,


As to your comments, I will let you know, I do not sit on any bubble. I have in my posession 3 letters of acceptance to medical schools across the country.

So, my "whining" has nothing to do with me not being able to get into med school.

My intention is not to defame AA and what it has accomplished but to bring everything back to reallity and allow this country to prosper in its diversity.

There are more programs available to those minorities, no matter of socioeconomic status, in our country than in any other country in the world. Mostly, they are not taken full advantage of.

An old saying is 'you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.' I think this is false. Make the horse thirsty enough and he will consume more than he can handle. We need to teach our youth how to set goals and attain them and that any goal is attainable. Not tell them that they will not amount to anything. This is a capitallistic society not a sociallistic society, yeah right, and the best way to advance our society is to increase the competition in order to get the best out of the individuals in society.

It is time that we reevaluate and bring our systems into a more modern enviroment.

And to really increase the importance of family. If it were not for familial support I would not have been able to obtain my goals.

Richard
USF 04

[This message has been edited by richierich (edited 03-16-2000).]

 

[Sheon]

richierich,

I would think that more than half of the applicants to any school (college, professional, graduate, etc.) are qualified. There is no shortage of qualified applicants.

The problem comes in because 'most qualified' is not what an educational instituion should be looking for. Most schools would say they are looking for the best candidate. The student that is most likely to leave a lasting impression on the field they choose.

Some schools feel objective measures are the primary determinent of best candidate (USUHS is a particular example of this type of school).

Others say objective measures define the qualified, and from that pool is drawn the best candidate on other more subjective measures.

Still others feel that the need of the communities that the school has obligated themselves to serve should define who is best candidate (many state schools fall into this category).

I know of at least one school that says we don't go by who is most qualified. We sort into two piles, acceptable and unacceptable. If you are acceptable, you are accepted. Once we run out of space you are waitlisted. First come, first serve.

You seem to think that 'most qualified' will bring the best and brightest. That is almost never the case. It will usually bring the brightest, but almost never bring the best. Education is far too dynamic an endeavor to think that it can be objectively quantified into a mold of 'most qualified'.

Most of the people who complain about AA think that objectivity is the way to go (I got higher scores so I am more qualified). If you feel that way, apply to the schools that feel that way as well. They aren't hard to find. They are the schools that tend to have high admissions averages, few minorities, and relatively few applicants.

Now ask yourself, do you really think that every school should use the exact same criterion for determining who their candidates are? No institution in this country operates this way. Not employers, not government, not social organizations, not marriages, not sports teams, NO ONE!!! Why would you advocate it for education?

 

[richierich]

Sheon,

Please refer to my first post. I am not advocating that the selection process be completely objective. Only a fool would agree with that. Honestly if schools did not take a more objective approach I would not be attending any school this fall.

I agree that the best persons to fill the needs of society are not allways the ones with the highest gpa and mcat scores.

My argument rests in the fact that race/gender is used in a manor that is objective. When a person is selected because they 'represent' an URM and they may fill other qualifications is an absurd way of completing the process.

I am in no way advocating any type of discrimination. It is of my opinion that most of the URM communities have had ample opportunity to move themselves into a position that would eliminate the conditions that make learning inefficent.

It is time to make everyone step up to the plate. The days of blaming another for my/your failures are over. Now, if you do not succeed it is your own fault.

And for each and everyone who wants to say that I do not know the difficulties living in the projects or being discriminated against bring, go home. On the discrimination read my first post and listen to this story:

My wife is a teacher and last summer heard of a postion that had opened up at a great school that is only 5 miles from the house. The principle of the school flat out told her that the postion had to be filled by a minority before she could hire my wife. Question, does this meet the needs of the community if the school board would rather hire an underqualified substitute to fill the position untill a minority applicant could be found to fill the position? Especially when they had a qualified non-minority applicant willing to fill the positon today. Even you Sheon must answer a resounding NOOOO!!!!!!

And to answer any critics that may state that I do not know what it is like to come from an area/home that is less than nice, for lack of a better term:

When I was a small child, my parents divorced and my mother could only find a job making 75 cents an hour. Yes, I said 75 cents this was 1974. My father gave us only $160 a month for support and there was 4 of us in the house. Add it up there was not much to go around. We lived in subsidized housing, the projects, and yet we were not eligible for any AFDC (aid for dependent children). I have risen out of this and will be receiving my BS in BIO in may and starting Med School in the fall. I would fill you in on all of the crap that occured and my life of lesser means but I do not want to bore you.

I feel I do have the right to be pissed off. Some of you higher than thoughs need to come off your perch and think a bit before just knocking what I say. I do have the qualifications to speak on what I do. DO YOU?????

Again, I would like to say I think AA was needed but it is time to put it aside. Is not what we have been working for is to eliminate the use of race and gender in selection factors across the board?

Sheon, yes I do fill at the undergraduate level that there should be mostly objective selection. You have to prove that you have the desire and ability to complete school.

With the ONE FLORIDA plan, there will still be seats that will not be filled with in the state university system that will require a less objective approach to filling.

Respectfully,
Richard

USF '04

 

[DentalDi]

Food for thought, on a non-academic area--

My city's newspaper had a letter to the editor this past weekend which talked about the media's coverage of the Amadou Diallo trial in NY (an unarmed black man was shot by 3 white cops--I think 19 of 41 shots actually hit him), among other stories. In essence, the author pointed out that the media stressed the issue of race, making the story front page news. The author points out that the media did not spell out the race of the little boy who shot the 6 year old girl in Michigan; he was black, she was white. The author argues further that race should NOT be mentioned in either case (that of Diallo or the 6-yr-old girl). Instead, he feels that the media is inflaming a tense situation by only pointing out when whites hurt blacks, but not the other way around (which certainly does occur as well). And when such stories of blacks hurting whites occur, they don't get the same front-page coverage/treatment. In essence, the author feels that the media is editorializing the news, and not merely reporting the facts.

I'm not being as effective in my synopsis as the author of the original letter was, but let me tell you, he got me thinking. There is something to be said for leaving race out of the equation. Maybe more people would be inclined to think of us as truly equal/on the same footing. Interesting perspective, huh?!

------------------
You must do the thing you think you cannot do.
--Eleanor Roosevelt

[This message has been edited by DentalDi (edited 03-16-2000).]

 

[Sheon]

DentalDi,

Are you seriously suggesting that the media thinks there is more value in sensationalizing a story about a white person doing bad things to a black than the reverse? In today's racially charged, reverse discrimination marred, society that is utter nonsense!!!

In one instance you are talking about FOUR full-grown, fully-trained, cops making a decision with complete knowledge of exactly what the ramifications of their actions are. The shooters did not know the victim, and shot based on the actions and profile of the victim. It happens on the heels of the cop rape incident in NYC (where white cops were convicted of torturing and sodomizing a black man while spouting racial slurs).

In the other you are talking about a 6 year old child who probably has never fired a gun, nor seen one fired anywhere but on television. The shooter knew the victim well, and apparently had some minor differences (childstuff) with the victim the previous day. It happens on the heels of Columbine and about half a dozen other school shootings.

Do you think maybe these incidents didn't get the same treatment because they were completly different types of incidents?

If you want to compare apples to apples, Why don't you compare Colin Furgeson (the black LIRR shooter) to Bernard Goetz (the white subway shooter). Those were similar cases. They had very similar coverage in the media. Both were labelled race incidents, both got national "front page" coverage, both were followed through trial.

What about Rodney King and Reginald Denahey [I hope I spelled that correctly]. Both played as race, both involved a horrible beating, both made national "front page" news, both were seen as racial incidents, both got the same amount of coverage through trial. The reaction to the trial garnered more news coverage in Rodney's case, but that was probably because it led to riots.

Let's try to be realistic in our comparisons.

RichieRich,

You make it sound as if URMs are coming in droves taking over the educational system through race-based preferences. That is hardly the case.

You also make it sound as if financial issues were the primary detractor from URM success. Many of the existing data suggest, and most of the "experts" on education will agree culture plays a substantially greater role in impeding the educational success of URM students than any other single factor.

That is what I feel is the problem with AA. It treats the symptoms (underrepresentation of URMs in higher education and the upper echelons of society) and not the problem (a subculture that does not regard educational excellence as a viable means for success).

Dismantling AA does even less for the problem than AA does. It says, "Your problem, you deal with it." I feel as though the attitude that is being used to dismantle AA is one that essentially says, "I'm tired of carrying you." Is that what it is to you?

Honestly, I don't think AA will ever serve to equalize things (I don't think it was a very well thought out idea to begin with). In that regard I think it needs to be changed to be less reactive and more proactive. However, I become alarmed when I see people who hold the view that you hold toward AA and want to react. I think that eliminating AA will be greeted with a very different reaction that the general populace is expecting.

Personally, I think government should take a step back and allow institutions and organizations to determine for themselves how they want to comprise their population dynamic and what criterion they want to use for establishing it.

Further, I think the government should refocus its efforts AND RESOURCES to improve the educational systems in the communities that need it most (without regard to race).

I respect and empathize with your wife's story, that is not what AA was designed to be. That is clearly a misutilization of what AA is supposed to be.

I hope you can at least respect my opinion.

Sheon

[This message has been edited by Sheon (edited 03-17-2000).]

 

[DentalDi]

Hi Sheon,

I understand how what I wrote came across. I brought it up simply as "food for thought"--something to ponder about how the media MAY play a role in intensifying racial tensions by editorializing and not merely reporting the facts in a situation. I am just wondering myself if the media left race out whether relations between the races would improve at all. Certainly the media is not the only factor in this complex issue.

As I indicated, I didn't do a very good job of summarizing the original letter to the editor. (I'm doing this from memory and don't have it in front of me.) In regard to your point, I agree it seems like comparing apples and oranges. However, I didn't bring out this point made in the original letter: namely, the author felt that if it had been a white child in a fatal gun skirmish killing a black child, that the media would have accentuated race (while they did not in the current instance). The point here is that for whatever reason, whether it be sensationalism to sell newspapers, fear of law suits, or what-have-you, it seems that emphasis of race in interactions between participants in newsworthy events is skewed in favoring reporting race when a white harms a black more than when a black harms a white.

My personal feeling is that the race of the participants in the "harmful interaction" should not matter; instead, we should judge the wrongfulness of the act itself without regard to race. Maybe this is naive on my part since I know that SOME people still have prejudice even though our society has become increasingly multicultural (and I personally love interacting w/people from very diverse backgrounds), but I'm just not so sure it's always fair to assume that race is at the root of every interaction or the sole motivation of a criminal act. Did the cops in NYC overreact to Diallo? Yes, I think so. Were they justified in being afraid during this situation and responding in some fashion? Yes, I think so. But, I think if black cops did this to a white man, that it may or may not have even gotten in the newspaper. Should it get covered in either situation? Absolutely. But in either situation I think the acts merit our attention and our ultimate judgment without regard to race. No person, regardless of race, should be shot at 41 times. Personally, I feel that everyone is a valuable person regardless of race (most of my friends come from different cultures and ethnicities--people say it's like a "little UN" when going to my parties). Hope this clarifies things a little.

------------------
You must do the thing you think you cannot do.
--Eleanor Roosevelt

[This message has been edited by DentalDi (edited 03-17-2000).]

 

[Sheon]

DentalDi,

I see your point

, but I think you are underestimating what the media would sensationalize.

I would really like you to answer these questions.

Do you really think that if FOUR black, plainclothes cops, in an unmarked vehicle, fired 41 shots at an unarmed white man reaching for his wallet on the doorstep of his home in a white community it would not have been all over the news?

Do you really think that under those circumstances no one in the media would have questioned the shooting to be racially motivated?

Do you think if they moved the trial from a predominantly this white community to a black community that it would not have made national news?

I seriously doubt that there is a bunch of black on white racial killings or crimes going on that the media doesn't want to report because they think no one would be interested or they are scared that someone would sue. I'm not saying they don't occur. I am saying that if these events occurred and were something people wouldn't expect, they would certainly make the news and the race issue would be at the forefront of it all.

And agian I will point to Colin Fuergeson and Reginald Denehey as two examples.

I am not trying to be divisive, I just don't agree.

Sheon

P.S. I hope I haven't come across as angry or disenchanted. I just have more time on my hands than I am used to.

 

[richierich]

Sheon,

We must agree to disagree on these points. It is obvious my argument has not been effective to get my points across clearly because you are still reading what you want out of my posts.

For your suggestion about the cultural differences, this is an argument that I feel has no merrits. There are many cultural differences amongst the majority or European communities also. If you will argue cultural differences as an area of "impending education", then those Europeans that try to cross cultural lines should also be considered URM and this is not a valid point. If we tried to fragment our society like this it would be crazy. This type of argument just perpetuates my point. It is time that we stop looking towards the differences as areas that imped our progress but as characteristics that make us more diverse.

My wife being in education, I have been exposed to the therories and the truths about cultural differences causing problems. Then you will also agree then that a child should not be removed from his/her own enviroment and shipped to another community for 'educational' purposes. This primarally puts the child that is bussed as an outsider immediatly. Thus creating a hostile learning environment. Why must we then continue this absurd process?

I agree that there is a sub-culture that has developed that does not think of educational excellence and that is the main problem. AA continues this problem. That is why I suggest it is time for the strong leaders of the minority communities to step forward and stop whining about racial/cultrural differences and say put your best foot forward and forge your own futures.

You will also have to agree with me that in the Asian and Middle Eastern communities where success is very important in the culture, that there is not a huge disparity in representation amongst the 'elite.' It is only those communites/cultures that do not stress excellence as a measure of sucess that there is the greatest disparity.

And no I do not feel that URMs are "taking over the educational system", I just am very tired of people whining about the troubles they have. I look around campus and see so many opportunities that are available to URMs to increase diversity,that are not even taken advantage of. While, minority groups still complain about the lack of diversity.

I have been in the University system for a while now and the most prosporous group that I have been witness to is women that are not even US citizens. This particualar group seems to be more motivated than any other particular group in my university.

Not to jump in with your conversation with Di, but the Reginal Denehey trial was not given quite the coverage as the Rodney King trial. In my opinion, the vidieo coverage was shown time and time again due to its horrific amount of graphic violence. The old rubbernecking argument. The more gorry the more we want to see it.

If I am not mistaken, black leaders came out in defense of the black men who beat Mr. Denehey. The argument was that they were angry at the whites and Mr. Denehey was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Does anger become an excuse for violence, NO!!!!!!.

And in the case of the 4 NYC cops, I want you to walk a beat for one day in NYC knowing that the criminals out man and out gun you. The NYC police department is only about 1/3 to 1/2 as large as the US Marine Corps. I think it is a very difficult situation to be in when you have to protect and serve a population of several million when you are only about a number of 40 to 50 thousand.

Comparing the two cases is very much like comparing apples and oranges. In the Denehey case, the victim posed no immediate threat to the perpetrators. Where, in the NYC case supposedly the victim posed some type of threat to the perpetrators.

Also, no there is not a bunch of black on white crimes that are not being reoported, I beleive it is the author's intention to say that there is not much play to pumping up black on white crimes as there is white on black. The later always produces much hype and sells many papers. The former is reported just not as top stories or front page news pushing the fact it maybe racially motivated.
Not all white on black crimes are racally motivated either but medica portrays them as such.

And yes Sheon, black on white crime occurs (not "if it occurs")

And Sheon I hope that you are going into or already on Psyhc track, because you seem to have a lot of insight on what others know or feel. You would be able to put this to good use one day.

And Yes Sheon the media does sensationalize anything that is white on black or any other sensitive group. If you follow sports at all, you should know that John Rocker a pitcher for the Atlanta Braves made some statments 5 months ago that are insensitive. NOT all of them were racial, actually the majority and I say the major part of them were not made to any particular racial group. These comments were made to a Sports illustrated writer who had spent a couple of days with him. The writer chose to write only about what Rocker had said that was contreversial not about any of the charitalble or good things that he did while he was with him. Like, visiting sick children in a hospital, giving time back to his community by running a baseball camp, ect...
and now the media continue to push the issue when the Brave's orginiation has a much more important story occuring. Andres Gallaraga ( dont know if I spelled that right) is returning this season after batteling cancer last year.

Also, how many times has Charles Barkley come out with racially charged comments and nothing has happened to him. The media does not follow him around for 6 months baiting him they dont need to. He knows nothing will happen to him. Where the black community, specifically, was wanting Rockers head on a platter.

It is old and tired, get over it, pull your boot straps up and join the fight against racism of all kinds. Stop whining and lets all 'just get along'.

Sheon again I will say that we must agree to disagree. I would respect your opinion if you would do the same. That is what it is all about. You must first give respect to earn respect.

Richard


Di,
I completely see what you were trying to repeat. If others were not so angry about everything they would not attack you personally. Thanks for the info.

Richard

 

[Sheon]

richierich,

First off, you completely missed my point. My point was not that cultural differences automatically impede education. My point was that the specific culture of the URM communities in this country tends to impede educational success. I don't know how you ended up in Europe. I think you are used to hearing an arguement of cultural differences that is often applied to the SAT and assumed that I was making that same arguement. I am not.

I also don't know how you ended up talking about bussing children out of local communities. If you want to talk about it fine. I was bused, I hated it. It didn't help. People resented me for "invading their privacy". I think it was a well meaning but misguided effort. I understnad the rationale, but it didn't work.

As for the sub-culture, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS SAYING!!! I don't think black leaders should step up. I think the problem is one that everyone should step up to. My post on the 17th suggested that government put more focus and resources to this problem in many communities, "...without regard to race." I guess you missed that.

I'm tired of people whining about their problems too. You seem to be implying that URMs are doing most of the whining. I see some non-URMs whining too. I guess you missed that too.

I think a few black leaders did come out in defense of the rioters. That is a travesty. I'm not saying blacks are faultless. Didn't say it, didn't imply it, didn't mean it.

I didn't make any evaluations of whether the cops were guilty or innocent. I never said the cops were wrong. The discussion had nothing to do with guilt or innocence. I was making a point about whether or not the race issue is sensationalized more when it is white on black rahter than black on white.

I never compared Denehey to Diallo. I compered Denehey to King, and I compared, Goetz to Fuergeson. I was making the point that comparing Diallo to the school shooting was comparing apples to oranges. I guess, once again, you missed that.

I understood exactly what dentaldi was saying. I was making an arguement that he/she was incorrect. I pointed to two examples. AGAIN...Goetz to Fuergeson...King to Denehey. Similar cases, national attention.

You quoted me as saying "...if it occurs...." Allow me to explain something to you. When you take "text" out of "context" you are left with a "CON". Don't put those three words up here like I was saying it doesn't occur.

I said, "if these events occurred and were something people wouldn't expect, they would certainly make the news and the race issue would be at the forefront of it all." That has a vastly different meaning.

In fact, I said specifically, "I am not saying they don't occur." For the foutth time, I GUESS YOU MISSED THAT!!!

I know the media sensationalizes anything that is white on black. They also sensationalize black on white. Reggie White made some bad comments a few years ago, his were MUCH more toned down, but they made the same type of uproar. We didn't hear the rest of Reggie's sermon either. Don't make it seem like it only happens to whites.

I gave you every respect. I was in support of you and your wife's situation. I agreed that there was a problem with the way things are in regards to AA.

What did you do? You didn't read what I wrote. Took my words out of context and changed their meaning. Took an idea that I posted and used it as your own in an arguement against me. Ignored what I posted no less than four times. AND called me a whiner in spite of the fact that I didn't complain about anything. How disrespectful is that?

If you didn't spend so much time trying to make me out to be the bad guy, you would notice that we are in agreement on several things. Including that there is a problem with AA. You didn't see any of that. All you saw was an URM trying to get a handout.

You told me, "It [implying my arguement] is old and tired, get over it, pull your boot straps up and join the fight against racism of all kinds. Stop whining and let's 'just get along.'"

If you go back and read, you did more complaining than anyone who has posted on this thread. Who is really doing the whining here???

Sheon

 

[richierich]

Sheon,

You have to remember that this is mostly opinion that WE are spouting here.

You have valid arguments that I may have not completly say your views in the short posts that have been presented here. I agree that we do agree on many points. I also will say that you have misinterpreted, taken out of context, and extracted what you wanted out of many of the posts yourself. This is were emotion and OPINION take over. Neither of us has presented anything more than our own interpertations of similar situations.

Grossly, you had no merit to attack and tell Di that she is wrong. I feel it was not her intentions, which she has stated several times, to present cold hard facts that the media performs this horrible act. It was the original author's thoughts she was bringing here and opinions can very seldom be wrong we can only agree or disagree in most cases.

Obviously, I am just non-observent to miss every point that you have made.

My comments on "if it occurs....." might have been a bit out of context but anything you say or write is up to interpretation and that is the feeling that I had gotten. Even with reviewing it agian listen to what you said.

And if you have had as much exposure to the socilogical teachings that you have encouraged me to read and learn, you would know that the whites of this country are usually in most sociological context as "Europeans". Please educate yourself about what you preach before telling others what to say or do.

And yes it is time for the black leaders to set the example and drive on to what they are wanting for their people. The best way to lead is to lead by example. And while the masses do not educate themselves more than what they see on tv (and I include ever racial and ethnic group here) and all they see is that the best way to get what you want is not to provide for yourself (Here I am not implying monetary sustananc but educational,social,or any other realm.(I feel I must give you additional commentary so you will know what I am saying and not interperate the way you want because you have missed every point that I have argued.))

Yes, I feel it is time for me "to stop carrying you." Not on thing that I have accomplished has been with any more aid than the sweat of my brow and the help of my family. I will say one more final time, as this is my last post on this subject, it is time for the leaders of the black, hispanic, asian,..... communities to set the example and move on. I do not think that there is not one person that is born on the face of this earth who when reaches for the stars cannot get there.

Well if you feel that I have been speaking to you when I say people are whining, then get offended.

One last word, I repeat what has been discussed here is completely opion. My comments, Sheon, Dental-Di, ect..... all are opionions no one has provided any evidence that is backed by direct quotes from any reliable source. And Opinions are like ***holes, everyone has one and they usually stink.

Sheon, agian I will respect your opinion as it is yours but, you have not respected anyone else's here. Why then should we respect yours.

Richard

 

[Sheon]

richierich,

I hope you got my e-mail.

 

[DentalDi]

I didn't mean for my commentary to add to any pre-existing antagonism between Sheon and RichieRich. I think you both saw what I was getting at, but whether you choose to agree or not is another story. (I can't comment on the comparison cases since I know little about those cases--but that should also tell you something.) Quite honestly, I feel that it is sad that we can't discuss this issue in a rational manner. I know that race and AA are heated issues, but how are things ever going to improve if people cannot see from multiple angles??? These are not easy "problems" to solve.

I think that looking at things w/o regard to race (as could be potentially initiated/encouraged by the media) may help encourage others to think of everyone as equal. Then people would truly be judged based on their character and actions, not solely their race. Isn't that the ultimate goal?

And yes, I am a "she". I wish you both well and still hope that our society has a chance to adopt true multiculturalism.

------------------
You must do the thing you think you cannot do.
--Eleanor Roosevelt

[This message has been edited by DentalDi (edited 03-19-2000).]

 

[Sheon]

dentaldi,

I don't think richierich and I had any preexisting antagonism, and I definately saw what you were talking about.

I too feel it is quite sad that we can't discuss these things without name-calling, rudeness, and misunderstanding. I realize it is part my fault. Looking back, I think I probably could've communicated my view more clearly.

I wish you well also, and I hope that how things turned out doesn't influence your opinion of me or richierich.

Peace.

Sheon

 

[richierich]

I know I said that I would not submit any more posts on this subject but after receiving the following email from my eloquent advisary on the subject, I had to respond:

Quote from Sheon:
I got your e-mail address from the student doctor network. I must say that your attitude scares me.

It scares me, because for the most part we agree, but you are so angry you can't seem to allow our commonalities to
overcome our differences (in spite of the fact that you seem to claim that's what we need to do). You have called me
names, talked about me like I was some kind of lazy bum, and you don't even know me. You keep preaching
togetherness, but you are working very hard to keep us separate by not reading what I write and misrepresenting me at
every turn. You think only black leaders can make a difference to balck people, but you talk about togetherness. You
paint a picture that this country is out to get white folks in spite of overwhelming statistical evidence to the contrary
(which obviously have not made any effort to research).

Now it is my turn to let you have it.

You seem like a typical disgruntled white student (not all white students just the disguntled ones). You are scared that
someone is better than you so you try to bring them down rather than lift yourself up. You blame AA and social
preferences for your own shortcomings. I am almost completely certain that I have a higher GPA, a higher MCAT
score, more education, and more experience than you (the reason I profess to know so much is because I know more
than most AND DEFINATELY MORE ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR SUBJECT THAN YOU). I do my
homework and I know what I am talking about. You try to make ME out to be a crybaby while you whine and bitch
about how you and your wife got held down by this evil Affirmative Action program. You are the problem with the
education system. They keep turning out experts who think they know everything and don't want to do the homework
to find out the real deal. You are a joke, and I will take great pride in laughing at you and everyone like you as a go on
to become a leader for ALL people not just the black ones.

If you didn't know my name is SHEON H. MENDOZA (remember it because you will see it again) Captain USAF,
MBA - Conc. Health Services Management, BS - Psychology, minor Sociology, Honor student AND will be enrolled
in SUNY Downstate medical center next semester. I got accepted to every school I applied to, and if AA went away I
still would have. I am your worst nightmare...because whether AA goes away or not people will always take a person
like me over a person like you!!! That is because I am secure in who I am, I don't blame others for my shortcomings,
and I do my homework enough to know what I am talking about when I talk. Think about that and be scared
of competing with me. We may apply for the same residency...trust me...you will lose!!!

Perhaps if you did some thinking for yourself instead of letting Rush Limbaugh and the Republican party lead you
around like a flunky you would stand a chance. Judging by you attitude I'm guessing it won't happen without some
major changes.




Sheon ( [email protected] )

P.S. I am always willing to debate the issue.

Sheon,

I mulled over exactly how I would reply to your email and this is what I decided to do.

I just wanted everyone else to see where this led to.

In response, I agree that it is a travisty that we allowed our emotions to play a such a great role in our rhetoric. I wanted to respond in kind to some of your points that you made.

1.) Yes, I am very angry that we cannot have a world that is not color blind and that there is still not a level playing field, as you are, as is obvious by your posts and email.

2.) NO, I am not scared of you or anyone like you because, the more competition there is the better for society, especially in our chosen field.

3.) There is no reason to start a contest on who's scores are larger because at this level we have all very similar credentials eg I have gotten into almost all of the schools that I have applied to save two out of state shools that accept only in-state students for the most part and those schools that I turned down the interview to. I also am an honor student at my current University ect...... blah blah blah

4.)My wife read your email and particularly found it amusing when you stated "Perhaps if you did some thinking for yourself instead of letting Rush Limbaugh and the Republican party lead you
around like a flunky you would stand a chance." especially since you and I agree that the Republican party and Rush Limbaugh both need to come out of the dark ages. As in her own words, and as she is a flaming Republican, 'you are the biggest flaming Democrat that I have ever met.( I do paraphrase here because her comments were a lot longer.)

5.) I also agree that WE as future leaders of our respective communities (geographic and not racial) should be able to intellegntly discuss the important issues and be able to find solutions to those difficult questions that plague or society.

6.) It is not my intention to "bring anyone down." I do not need to bring anyone down and had not (as I have reviewed my posts) made any of the slanderous comments that have been alledged. Capt. Mendoza please quote me on any of the comments where I have "talked about you" or anyone else as a "lazy bum." I will promise you will not find it. You have continously placed words into my mouth and twisted (as I am also quilty) my words. I appologize if you feel that I was making these ignorant comments about you or anyone else.

7.) I also appreciate the way that you changed your mind on my wife's situation from empathy to apathy. My intention of sharing that particular situation was not to whine about AA but to show a specific example of the failure of the program.

Capt. Mendoza,

I only hope that we can put our differences aside and grasp on to our commonalities to lead this great nation into the new century. As I applologize for any comments that have been made that was mistaken for personal attacks and hope that in future communications we can rationally discuss the issues, I promise to do my part.

Richard


PS

I echo Capt. Mendoza's sentiments about how terrible the rehtoric has been in these posts and promise that this is absolutly my last post on this subject.

[This message has been edited by richierich (edited 03-20-2000).]

[This message has been edited by richierich (edited 03-20-2000).]

 

[Sheon]

richierich,

Okay, here's how...

"Yes, I feel it is time for me 'to stop carrying you.'"

Does this not reflect that you are carrying someone who does not want to do what they need to (i.e., lazy bum) to you? Was this not directed at me and other URMs? Do you think this would not bring someone down?

"Please educate yourself about what you preach before telling others what to say or do."

This was directed at me personally. Does this not suggest that I do not know what I am talking about (the definition of ignorant)? Do you think this is not an attempt to bring someone down?

"Stop whining and lets all 'just get along'"

Please explain how this is not calling me a whiner. Do you think this does not bring people down?

"Well if you feel that I have been speaking to you when I say people are whining then get offended."

When coupled with the previous quote, this says (from the previous quote you are a whiner) I don't care if it offends you that I called you this. How is this not brining someone down?

How is all this not insulting? How is this not a public attempt to humiliate URMs, in general, and me in particular?

My position on your wife's incident has not changed, I still believe your wife's situation was a bad one. However, for someone who is constantly telling people to stop whining (you siad it in almost every post you put up), it is not something you should be using in that context, because it is whining. Isn't it?

Please tell me how I have twisted your words? Up until now, I do not see how I have. If you don't want to post, fine e-mail works too.

Sheon

P.S. I don't blast people in public because my assesments of people are my own. If I choose to share them, I will share it with the person with whom it is concerned. I also do it privately because there is a chance that my opinion is wrong and it gives me the opportunity to learn that without publicly humiliating someone first (a option that you did not afford me before insulting me). I apologize to you for any misrepresentations I may have made of you (I know the republican thing would've hurt my feelings).

P.S.S. You are right...we do need to get along.

 

[SUNYboy]

You got into every school and you will go to SUNY downstate? WhY? We don't like no mexicans or puerto ricans around here!!

 

[rufus]

Hi, Sheon. Boy, am I glad I didn't offend you during our previous discussion of politics

! Suffice it to say, I appreciated hearing your opinions on this topic, too. Richierich, I'm actually somewhat in agreement with you about the current AA system. I'm a white applicant who had to apply multiple times (three, in fact) before I got into medical school. I have a 3.6 GPA & 32 MCAT. Why I didn't get in the first two times, I'll never know. Did a minority with lesser academic qualifications than me gain admittance when I didn't? Sure. I know for a fact that happened. It used to upset me because I felt I'd worked very hard for my marks, worked my tail off at two medically-related jobs all through school, then had jobs in the medical field. I felt like the only thing working against me was my race, & that belief was reinforced by the attitudes of those around me. Then, a guy I knew in collge, who graduated with maybe a 3.0 (I don't know his MCAT score; perhaps it was great!) was accepted his second time applying; wonder of wonders, his dad, a prominent surgeon in town, made a sizable donation to the school that same year. That upset me even more & I changed my thinking. Even if I didn't think AA was "fair," at least it's driving principle seemed right; that is, to increase educational opportunities among those who hadn't previously been given that equal footing. Of course, I don't feel that any minority necessarily has the only dibs on that corner of the market. Less-well-to-do whites have encountered quite similar lack of educational opportunities. Just as well-to-do minorities probably haven't. The premise that several URM groups have a subculture of devaluing education seems quite plausible; in fact, that same argument landed a UT professor in a lot of hot water a few years back. I argue that lower-class whites tend to embrace that same subculture; this, I think, is less a matter of race/ethnicity than it is of economics; until members of each socioeconomic statum receive the same educational opportunities, I think AA programs should exist. But, IMO, they should not be relegated to only those of minority status.

Anyway, just my thoughts. Not a diatribe & not intended to be quite so long

 

[Tanya]

How can you postulate that a "minority of lesser qualifications" could have taken your spot? I dont understand your evidence or logic in your post.

Minorities in any medical school class make up about 8% of the class. Many times less than that. Why dont you blame your failed attempts at medical school on the other 92%???

Medical school applications are difficult for everyone. Anyone who thinks that URMs are getting a free ride are SERIOUSLY mistaken. Many URMs have to overcome several obstacles to get to their position.

And the scary part of it all, is that no matter if some black woman or man is a MD-PhD-JD surgeon, the first thing people see is skin color. Race is a source of discrimination everywhere in this country. What if this top surgeon was killed by 4 police officers while he was trying to enter his home. Just because he fit a description???

Please dont mistake my post as "whining." I know how things work. I plan to move up as far in life as humanly possible. Maybe one day I could be a MD-PhD-JD Neurosurgeon, but you can bet AA will not get all the credit.

------------------

"Just like moons and like suns...With the certainty of tides...Just like hopes springing high...Still I'll rise" -Maya Angelou "Still I Rise"



[This message has been edited by Tanya (edited 03-20-2000).]

 

[rufus]

Tanya,

I never said that a minority took my spot. Indeed, I stated that minorities with lesser academic qualifications were accepted when I was not; I know this for a fact because friends of mine, minorites, were accepted with lower grades & MCAT scores than mine. Do I begrudge them their admittance? No. Did I have difficulty understanding how & why that happened? Truthfully, yes. However, I did not say, nor did I mean to imply, that they somehow wrangled a seat from me. I simply said that I don't know why I was not accepted the first two times. I did, however, call the admissions offices and not a single one could offer a concrete answer as to how I could improve my application. My grades were competitive, as was my MCAT, I interviewed early, etc. Perhaps the adcoms just didn't like me or there were a bunch of other better-qualified applicants. I never said that didn't happen, I did not whine about not getting in, nor did I place blame anywhere but squarely on my shoulders. I simply applied again (twice) and received an acceptance letter. BTW, I'm in Texas, & minorites comprise a lot more than 8% of our medical school populations (more like 25-40%, depending on the school), and that's a good thing because we have a large minority population here.

If your comments about minorities receiving a free ride are directed towards me, I must say that I don't know how you made that jump based on what I posted. In fact, I said I support AA programs if they take into account all ethnic groups that are disadvantaged. Tell me, do you think lower-class whites are less disadvantaged (as far as educational opportunity) than middle-class minorites, and if so, why. Really, I want to know. As I said before, this comes down to, IMO, economics much more so than skin color. Just as I don't assume every minority utilized the AA system to achieve, I don't assume every white person had an easy time of it. To do either smacks of racial stereotyping to me. You say that no matter what a black person achieves, all people see is his race; that's sad. But is it not the same to assume that because one's white he hasn't had to overcome significant obstacles? Unless, of course, race is the only "obstacle" we're talking about here.

Anyway, I was merely expressing the thought process I went through in arriving at the beliefs I hold toward affirmative action today. I did not intend to anger or offend anyone, just offer my two-cents. Peace.

Rufus

 

[MEto MD]

Unfortunately, the majority of Whites believe in white supremacy. Case in point, several years ago a white texas law applicant sued UT's law school for admitting what he believed was a less qualified minority. Never mind the fact there were whites admitted with lower GPA's and LSAT's than he had. He immediately zeroed in on the African-American students because his white supremacist mind told him that he is better than any African-American and he was entitled to be admiited before any African-American. UT was doing exactly what it needed to be doing, looking out for the law needs of all Texans. Now because of this idiot and a few like minded judges, the state of Texas will be be hard pressed to ensure good legal represenatation to all of it's citizens.

 

[tristate]

Speaking from a Underrepresented Minority standpoint, some of these arguments have valid points while others don't.

1) What exactly is a "higher qualification"? Is it just a high GPA and high MCAT scores? Medical schools look at more than numbers. They see how you relate through people and your motives for relating to people. If you only worked throug school, it shows that you are more concerned about getting a paycheck. If you only do health-related work, it shows that you aren't opening your options. I'm not saying that anyone in this forum has those motives, but some admissions committees feel this way. Personally, I would rather have a doctor with a lower GPA and MCAT along with a friendly personality who was willing to work hard in medical school to become a caring physician.

2) For those underrepresented minorities with the lower GPA and MCAT, admissions committees look HEAVILY at extracurricular activities, our personal statements, and the interview. Therefore, those underrepresented minorities with "lower qualifications" tend to be more involved with their communities during undergrad (since we are more geared towards solving problems that plague various socioeconomic communities). As minorities, we work hard on extracurricular activies and personal statements. At Xavier U., premed students start working on their personal statements the fall semester of freshman year while providing revisions during the course of the undergraduate years.

Please understand, there is more to life than just numbers. There's life in general.

------------------
And the blessing just keep coming!

 

[Paradocs]

I found Richie's posting of Sheon's private email to be a TOTALLY unkosher violation of netiquette, in particular because it contained identifying information such as last name. Certainly Sheon risked such a thing by emailing such information, and likely was aware of it. That doesn't change its absolute rudeness; the accepted standard is to ASK before posting private emails even when they do not contain indentifying information.

Richie, you may not wish to be perceived as in accordance with the likes of Rush Limbaugh, but your line isn't so different. I can evaluate this fairly because I grew up in ragingly conservative western Kansas, where Rush Limbaugh is king, and listened to him for most of my formative years. Like it or not, you and he are ideological cousins. You really need to step outside of yourself and get more exposure to the world.

As for one of your initial points about the minority-targetted scholarships that aren't taken advantage of...look, that's part of the point. There aren't enough _under_-represented minorities there, and the ones that are often have to be incredibly strong individuals to have enough confidence in themselves to go for such things. You know what it's like to pull yourself up by the bootstraps? Sure, you've said as much. I do, too. But do you know what it's like to do that when absolutely no one believes in you? When your parents, who don't speak English, lovingly assume that you will grow up to work in the feedlots like they do? When your grade school teachers assume you won't be able to learn to read? When your white friends' parents think you're dirty? When your junior high teachers tacitly assume that you'll get pregnant and drop out? When you see no one of your race portrayed as successful on TV programs, etc.? When your high school guidance counselor, who is woefully incompetent enough in dealing with the white students, doesn't even give you the forms to fill out for financial aid for your state school because she just assumes you won't be going? When people you meet in college automatically assume you're there on some AA trip and try not to be your lab partner? Let alone study with you?

All of these things, and probably much, much more that I didn't pick up on, were such standard day-to-day experiences for my Hispanic friends that they don't even remark on them. They are the realities of life for enormous numbers of people. It's a freaking miracle that *anyone* experiencing such things makes it to college, let alone the med school application process. Certainly, not everyone 'benefitting' from AA has undergone all of these discouragements - though probably all blacks and Hispanics have experienced the subtle assumptions to some extent. Certainly, AA has flaws, not the least of which that it gives one more thing for people like you to seize on to and resent. Before we jettison it, though, we need to fix some of the fundamental problems that its inception was intended to correct.

That, obviously, is the difficult part.

Here are my ideas: I think we can all agree that it should start with the young. They need to have role models - prime time TV shouldn't be so segregated. Similarly, though I'm sorry your wife wasn't considered for that job, I hope that a young child sees the URM teacher and get the idea that she, too, could dream of being a teacher when she grows up. And now, for my last brilliant idea: wouldn't it be a wonderful thing if all the time spent whining about AA were invested in after-school study/mentoring programs?

I help when I can...do you?

 

[richierich]

Paradocs,

As I already know, my actions were not "kosher" I have personally appologized to Sheon for that in posts here and in private conversations.

Quickly, There was no minority hired for the position that my wife eventually filled. The school sits in a district that is about 97% white and they could not find anyone willing to come into the school. NOT that the area around the school has intentionally kept anyone out. It is a free and open community. I am sure the one student that would have seen this person will still see my wife and go on to greatness despite the color of her skin, he/she will realize what a loving and caring person can do for them, despite color of her skin.

Another quick point, my statement was not only about minority directed scholarships that are not being taken advantage of but of many programs, financial and otherwise that are not being utilized. For what reason I do not know. Is it lack of disemintating the information, lack of confidence (there are many programs designed specifically to increase confidence levels), or is it miscommunitcation between the administrators and the recipients? I do not know this answer. Mine is just an observation.

It is also my contention that we need to encourage role models to reenter their local communities and provide the much needed encouragment to our budding young countrymen.

If you had read my previous posts I had stated that I would not post in this forum ever again, if you wish to address me on any point that I have made please feel free to e-mail me. All you have to do is point and click. I will be happy to clarify my point of view on any subject, as I already know that I have not made my personal opinion clear.

Please, next time you want to adress me please do it in email form.

Richard

[This message has been edited by richierich (edited 03-29-2000).]

 

[kdn508]

I was wondering how schools dealt with the mixed folk. I'm also Vietnamese however i'm also mixed with black (grandpa) ? How does that play into being categorization of URM?

 

[StoicJosher]

I don't know too much about this topic but from what I remember, you can apply as a URM.

Also, I can't imagine a discussion like the one in this thread happening these days. 🙄

 

[hiphopcrates]

Can someone lock this forum already? This is just awful.

 

[HoltMD]

Can someone lock this forum already? This is just awful.

They decided to wake up the sleeping giant. This thread is almost 12 years old.

 

[Stumpyman]

look at all the 10+ year posters 😱

 

[BurntFlower]

I was wondering how schools dealt with the mixed folk. I'm also Vietnamese however i'm also mixed with black (grandpa) ? How does that play into being categorization of URM?

Did you really have to bump an almost 12 year old thread?

 

[Truzzi]

Ah, the lovely, overwhelmingly caustic AA debate.

Who woke up this beast of a thread? I was in elementary school when it was made.

 

[Medicinewoman85]

Ah, the lovely, overwhelmingly caustic AA debate.

Who woke up this beast of a thread? I was in elementary school when it was made.