Mixed message: M1/M2 grades and class rank

[HealingSenses]

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It's been 2 months into the first year, and I think I've been to way too many interest group meetings. One side effect is that I got a lot of mixed messages about the importance of the M1/M2 grades from various residency directors. Some said they don't look at M1/M2 grades at all (ortho dept); some said they don't care much about M1/M2 grades, however they do care about class rank, say top 1/3, which is directly linked to M1/M2 grades (am I right about this, and our school reports ranking in either quantile or 1/3 or something) (from ent, em, etc.); some said every single grade matters (from general surgery chair).

OK, I think I am a little bit frustrated at this point, especially when the midterms are coming. I know I need to do well in M1/M2 to prepare for step I. However, getting honors in courses like anatomy takes a lot more studying than getting a B. I feel I am learning anatomy solid although I am getting a B. To me it is just not worth it any more. So is there a concensus at all? How much does M1/M2 grades matter in residency application when it's part of the factor to determine your class rank? Any insight will be appreciated.

 

[dude1344]

Don't let anyone tell you grades don't matter. Of course they matter, or they wouldn't even be included on your application and looked at by residencies. That being said... how much do they matter? Who knows. You can check the NRMP data and see if that data helps you. It may not matter as much as Step 1 and clinical grades, but it's still something that's there. How much effort it's worth is up to you to decide.

Keep in mind that if AOA is in your sights, grades are part of that also.

 

[MilkmanAl]

That being said... how much do they matter? Who knows.

The NRMP knows, and they say less than most other things. I think it was 9th on the list or something like that. Clinical grades, on the other hand, are very important. With so many programs going to P/F for the first two years, it's getting a bit harder to distinguish "class rank" from 3rd year grades, so look for that to shift in the near future.

 

[HealingSenses]

I'd like to get involved with a research project soon, but given the fact that I am not one of those genius who can juggle between coursework and ECs and still get honors in classes, I have been pushing that plan back. Then I heard that the second year could only be worse ... Could the life being a med student be any easier? 🙁

Don't let anyone tell you grades don't matter. Of course they matter, or they wouldn't even be included on your application and looked at by residencies. That being said... how much do they matter? Who knows. You can check the NRMP data and see if that data helps you. It may not matter as much as Step 1 and clinical grades, but it's still something that's there. How much effort it's worth is up to you to decide.

Keep in mind that if AOA is in your sights, grades are part of that also.

 

[HealingSenses]

I think we are one of the "few" schools that still use the traditional grading system.

The NRMP knows, and they say less than most other things. I think it was 9th on the list or something like that. Clinical grades, on the other hand, are very important. With so many programs going to P/F for the first two years, it's getting a bit harder to distinguish "class rank" from 3rd year grades, so look for that to shift in the near future.

 

[Bernoull]

Not to thread-jack.. but for honors/high pass/pass/fail, for the majority who just pass, does class rank factor in actual grade percentage earned or are all passes worth the same?

Thx

 

[MilkmanAl]

I think we are one of the "few" schools that still use the traditional grading system.

It certainly seems that way.

 

[Dirt]

Not to thread-jack.. but for honors/high pass/pass/fail, for the majority who just pass, does class rank factor in actual grade percentage earned or are all passes worth the same?

Thx

My school doesn't release class rank. The only thing they rank for is AOA eligibility and for that i think that all passes are the same.

 

[a winner is you]

My school doesn't release class rank. The only thing they rank for is AOA eligibility and for that i think that all passes are the same.

Your class rank is released discretely by the adjective in your MSPE.

 

[HealingSenses]

I am just wondering how they calculate our class rank. Is this something I can ask the student affair about?

Your class rank is released discretely by the adjective in your MSPE.

 

[MrBeauregard]

At my school, class rank is calculated as follows:

If the credit hours for a course are 8.5 (anatomy), the credit hours will be multiplied by 100. This gives 850 quality points for anatomy. If my final grade in anatomy was a 93, I will receive 93% of 850 quality points, which works out to be 790.5 quality points. The registrar then adds up all of the quality points I accumulated at the end of the year and ranks me compared to all of the students in my class. Make sense?

And all of the doctors I spoke to before school started advised me to stay within the top 10% of my class the first two years and then forget everything I learned once I start residency. So that's my plan.

 

[WellWornLad]

There is no consortium among program directors to standardize the value of preclinical grades/rank. Every program will have their own idea about what's important.

The upshot is: who cares? Are you honestly going to study less because some PD says he doesn't care about 1st year grades? I doubt anyone would deny either the importance of your step 1 score or a strong correlation between that and how hard you study the first 2 years.

 

[HealingSenses]

No, I will not slack even I am in a p/f school. But I could have spent more time on a research project in first year and take it into the summer, hoping to get a paper out of it you know. Oh well ... Guess we will just have to do what we have to do anyways. Thanks anyways guys.

There is no consortium among program directors to standardize the value of preclinical grades/rank. Every program will have their own idea about what's important.

The upshot is: who cares? Are you honestly going to study less because some PD says he doesn't care about 1st year grades? I doubt anyone would deny either the importance of your step 1 score or a strong correlation between that and how hard you study the first 2 years.

 

[ArcGurren]

Who effing cares. Do the best you can and you'll be fine. Weaker grades can be compensated for with a good board score/research etc but the point is these preclinical years are there for you to learn first and foremost.

And of course grades matter a little bit... but they should be a measure of your knowledge... generally i do less well on my exams but i do phenomenally on my shelf exams which are usually a good marker for boards competency. I'm on my school's clinical curriculum committee and residency directors here for the most part value the actual grades very little compared to your step 1 score (the notable exceptions being derm and neurosurgery). The whole calculation of quintiles etc makes no sense here either but that's another issue.

 

[Dirt]

Your class rank is released discretely by the adjective in your MSPE.

I realize that but I wouldn't really call that class rank. Usually a school will break it down into like 5 or so tiers which probably roughly correlate with actual class rank but in reality include other stuff as well because it represents their overall level of recommendation which is not based purely on grades.

It is hilarious though. "Oh they only highly recommend him, as opposed to enthusiastically recommend him."

 

[OveractiveBrain]

There is an excellent article on SDN about P=MD but P!=MD (!= is "does not equal). It talks about the importance of Step 1, however unfortunate, in program ranking.

Here's the deal. Most schools keep track of a percentage grade for each course. Some schools may keep a simplistic system (4-H, 3-HP, 2-P, 1-C, 0-F). Some rank based on course hours, some simply on courses. Each school does it differently. If you are in a school that has grades throughout, you will likely be able to ask the dean of academic affairs. If you are at a more PC school, you may get some simplistic answer like "grades dont matter."

Program Directors do receive a copy of your transcript. It is one line in the MPSE. It is ranked very low on the reasons to receive interviews.

There is a caveat. If you are looking to get in something like Optho/Derm/Ortho/Neurosurg/ENT then class rank does matter (for AOA). Even bottom of the barrel programs have said they dont care about your class rank. Its nice to be on top for the top programs (who are looking for reasons to screen people out) but for the 11,000 residencies there are in the country, class ranking doesnt matter. Step 1 >> 1st/2nd, Clinical Rotation >> 1st/2nd, Research >> 1st/2nd.

Bottom line, dont sweat the grades. Get Honors if you can. But focus on your life and the rest of your application