Money in PMR?

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lesch nyan

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Hello everyone,

I am a LONG time viewer of SDN but this is my first post. I attend an osteopathic medical school and have become very interested in PMR. I want to use my OMT, develop patient relationships, have a family,etc.

However, when I mention my interest people say there is no money in it, do not bother. I am not money hungry BUT it is very important to me. I thought about fellowships in Spine or Pain and figured that entering one of those would lead to alot of money. Again this is prob coming out horrible but still.

What fellowships if any? Outpatient? Own practice? I have a 4th year friend rotating with a PMR that does OMT and Spinal Injections under fluoroscope and is making bank?


what is the path to making money in PMR? How do you get to that 300K end of the mean salaries as stated in http://www.aamc.org/students/cim/pub_physmedrehab.htm??


:thumbup:

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Work somewhere where you do more diagnostics (like EMG) and procedures (spine, etc.) than clinic treatment, a place with low overhead and good contracts, with a steady referral base.
 
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One thing that I have never seen any info about - how much do the different PM&R subspecialties make (besides pain)? Spinal cord, TBI, pediatrics, neuromuscular, etc.

Is it true that if you are academic, working for a major medical center, that you won't be making much?

Any info would be much appreciated.
 
One thing that I have never seen any info about - how much do the different PM&R subspecialties make (besides pain)? Spinal cord, TBI, pediatrics, neuromuscular, etc.

Is it true that if you are academic, working for a major medical center, that you won't be making much?

Any info would be much appreciated.

Get a book of cpt codes for clinic visits (99205, 99204, 99203) etc and procedures you want to do. Pick a state you like and find their online medicare fee schedule. plug cpts in and figure out how many you think you can safely and ethically do in a day. Be realistic and honest with yourself. Congrats, you just figured out how much you can theoretically earn. This tells nothing about overhead costs or how long it takes to get there.

Academic has the following pitfalls.

1) you get the tough cases. Your 99204 may take much longer because everything else has been tried. I knew a very bright fellow in residency, well published, who had zero interest in academics. In fact, his motto: "If I can't explain their problem and treatment options in 15 minutes, or have to explain it twice, I will send them to the university."

2) Some depts in universities cap what you make, say 30% above your base salary. This means that if you are 30% ahead in May, you work for free until June 31 if that is how you contracted. Additionally, some universities base salaries on national averages for titles. This means that if you are pmr, but an assistant prof of orthopedics or neurosurgery, you will be able to negotiate a lot higher than if your work for the PMR dept.

3) Universities are at best benign dictatorships. There is no reason that your chairperson ever needs to tell you what you are really earning, and while opinions are collected, there are really no votes.
 
I knew a very bright fellow in residency, well published, who had zero interest in academics. In fact, his motto: "If I can't explain their problem and treatment options in 15 minutes, or have to explain it twice, I will send them to the university."

:laugh: Anyone else want to steal that as a motto?
 
Many academic salaries are at the bottom of the scale - $120/year or so.
 
I wonder sometimes then, that why do people want to go into academics if it makes less money, you get less autonomy, the harder cases, and it seems like your hours are worse?

Unless you have an OVERWHELMING love of teaching... :rolleyes:
 
I think alot of PGY-4's want to stay in the area and a position opens up at their institution and there may not be many other opportunities around. Its a good way to get some experience for a few years and pad the resume, then go off and make the "big bucks". Sometimes, however, a few years ends up being many. Also, I don't think the hours are that bad, the residents do all the work right? :D
 
I wonder sometimes then, that why do people want to go into academics if it makes less money, you get less autonomy, the harder cases, and it seems like your hours are worse?

Unless you have an OVERWHELMING love of teaching... :rolleyes:

Usually it's a personality issue, or a complete inability to work quickly enough to get your work done in practice that drives many people into an academic career. Very few of these doctors are major research scientists.

I'm doing a rotation in allergy right now. The doctors that I work with see 5 patients a day. My Dad (whose in the same field) sees 50 patients a day.

"So, do you have the red eyes? Ah yes, fascinating. What about.... The watery eyes? Itching? Dry eyes? Swelling? And the ears, do they itch? Is there fluid in the ears? Drainage? Pressure? Fullness? Ringing? Ear infections? And the nose, is it draining? Congested? What color is the drainage? Is it triggered by smoke? Cold air? Colds? Cats? Dogs? Dust? Pollen? Mold? Work? Leaves? Trees? Weeds? Are you having post nasal drip? Cough..."

Actually a typical encounter involves about 200 questions like that going into detail about what kind of pillows they have, their air conditioning, asthma symptoms, food reactions, and lots of other things, which really have no bearing on the end result, which is a skin test for everyone, and a likely prescription for Astelin. Of course, in private practice, things move much more quickly.

It's not much better in PM&R. I worked with a guy who did interventional pain, and he did maybe 3 injections in 4 hours. He said that his non-teaching colleagues did 1 injection every ten minutes.
 
bare in mind that there is a difference between inpatient physiatry and an academic position. you can make a decent amount of money running an inptient service with some clinic time as well. also, if the department is run well in an academic center, the pay can also be pretty good. on top of that, there is usually WAY better benefits at an academic job, likely better job security, less pressure, etc. its not as skewed as you might think
 
I wonder sometimes then, that why do people want to go into academics if it makes less money, you get less autonomy, the harder cases, and it seems like your hours are worse?

Unless you have an OVERWHELMING love of teaching... :rolleyes:
There are certainly disadvantages to go into academic practice. There is definitely higher earning potential with private practice. However in an academic practice, your malpractice fees will be covered and the benefits will be better. I would rather not do inpatient rehab (or do very little of), which is likely in an academic setting. It appears to me that there is less job security in an academic setting. There is a lot of politics going on in academics, which could lead to a sudden layoff. If I was looking for work straight out of residency, academics is not a bad way to build my resume.
 
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thanks for everyone's comments.

It was not about chasing money. I have a genuine interest in PMR, I was just curious as to what fellowships and procedures lead to the higher end of the salries.
 
I have a genuine interest in PMR, I was just curious as to what fellowships and procedures lead to the higher end of the salries
And understandably so especially since knowing this info now may influence your choice of which PM&R programs to apply to and also help in doing whatever it takes to match in those programs.

However, I think what the other post is trying to tell you is that if you do what you love you "wont have to work a day in your life" and consequently wealth will follow as you will excel in whatever it is that you are doing.

Moreover, even if you have the information about all the "money making fellowships and procedures" right now and you go into it just for that reason and not because you enjoy it you may not do too well and even if you manage to - you might be so unhappy that its pointless. Futhermore , things in medicine go in cycles- whats lucrative today may not be the same ones tommorrow- so do what you really enjoy

Good luck!
 
As an academic who loves being an academic, I will offer a few thoughts:

First, there is a difference between being an academic in an academic center, and being an employee in an academic center. If your primary goal is to see patients (which is a reasonable goal), then academic centers are probably not the best model, since private practice can be more efficient in capturing revenue from seeing patients.

There are some major advantages, though, of working for an academic enterprise:

Financials/Logistics:
- usually have many expenses covered for you, such as malpractice, office overhead, support staff, etc.
- the downside of this is that you may have less control. For example, if you don't like a nurse or a transcriptionist, you may have less influence in whether that person gets fired or not
- the marketing of the greater institution- you can pull in patients from the institution, and not rely on marketing specific to you
- the downside is that they may not do as much marketing specific to you as would be ideal, depending on the institution
- Benefits. The benefits at academic institutions are often better than private practice, sometimes considerably so. Some academic benefits packages can equal 30-40% of your income. I don't know what is the case for private practice, but my impression is that 15% is more typical. once you factor in total compensation, you can actually come out ahead in academics. The main downside is that income is usually capped more in academics than in private practice.



Work environment advantages
- a more intellectually stimulating environment. I have one friend who switched from private practice back into academics, and there explanation was "in private practice, if I saw something interesting, there was no one to share it with. I turned to my left, and turned to my right, and all anyone cared about was the financials."
I certainly talk to my colleagues about marketing, branding, billing, etc., but it's not our primary focus. I usually have several conversations a week that last over an hour, just discussing patients and how to better manage them. I find that extremely fulfilling, and it would be unusual to have that in a private practice. I'd like to think it makes me a better physician, but certainly adds tremendously to my job satisfaction

- makes it easier to explore new clinical approaches. For example, I've developed an interest in exploring the impact of hormone regulation (particularly testosterone) on low back pain. I have a colleague in my department who does research in this area, and another clinical colleague who has looked into in SCI patients. Across the street, I have a friend who is a professor in geriatrics who has an extremely well-funded research history on the topic. These are incredibly valuable resources that have very much informed my clinical judgment.
I think for any clinician, there is tendency to become more conservative the further removed you are from training. Many (not all, but certainly many) private practice docs become extremely proficient at what they do, but still practice similarly 10 years out to what they did in training. And often times the changes they make over time are heavily influenced by commercial interests, with less influence from patient outcomes than is ideal.
I have found that being an academic has fostered an environment where my growth as a clinician has primarily been governed by a desire to improve patient care. I like that.


- interaction with colleagues at other institutions. One thing I've loved about being an academic is the friendships I've made with academics at other institutions. There is no better way to learn than to have a beer with someone who is smarter than you are. For example, at the AAP, I went to dinner with 8 colleagues, and we probably chatted for 3 or 4 hours. Much of it was social, but some of it was just trading ideas about we approached different things, whether clinically or in terms of how to be a better teacher. I think that is often easier to do as an academic than in private practice.


- interactions with medical students and residents. There are downsides of course (they can slow you down, bad ones are an emotional drain, etc), but I would say that 90% of the time, working with trainees is a significant positive. Examples:
- it makes you a better clinician. For example, since I have my residents perform spinal injections with me present, I've had to learn to articulate things that were second nature for me. That process of articulation has forced me to think things through more thoroughly.
- Another example- I've had to develop systematic methods to teach medical students how to do an efficient MSK exam. That process has streamlined the way I collect data, which will serve as the basis for outcomes related research I plan on doing
- They ask questions, which forces me to read and keep up on things
- Sometimes they do things differently than I would, and sometimes they do things better than I do, whether it asking a question in a particular way, approaching an exam maneuver differently, adding something to therapy I hadn't thought of, etc. They are constant source of stimulation
- they are fun. I guess that my residents or medical students make me smile at least 10 times a day. That's nice


- Mentorship- i would say this is, for me, the far and away biggest benefit of being an academic. There is nothing more satisfying than finding out you inspired a medical student to go into PM+R, or inspired a resident to do something they haven't done before, or to watch the growth of a resident as they learn from you. For example, I was teaching the resident EMGs this morning, and watching one of my residents learn how to remove to motor artifact from an ulnar sensory study was incredibly gratifying. It's a small moment, but when you see the summations of moments like that over time, it just inspires you. Similarly, I was watching the resident who worked with me last quarter hold a conversation with a surgeon a few weeks ago, and she blew me away with how well she knew the literature and how comfortable she was explaining why she made the decisions she made. To watch her shine like that and know that I had an impact, however small, was incredibly gratifying.

So, in short, while private practice has many significant benefits, I am perfectly happy being an academic, and think it's something that many residents should consider.
 
Thank you for your insight as always rehab_sports_dr. I'm thinking I would love to have my own practice yet have to ability to teach residents and medical students. Is it feasible to start a practice sometime down the road, yet still have trainees to come and rotate? The only unappealing thing about academia to me really boils down to the inter- and intra-departmental drama that can/may occur. I realize I may be asking to have my cake and eat it too, but I feel like it would just taste so good :)
 
Academic has the following pitfalls.

3) Universities are at best benign dictatorships. There is no reason that your chairperson ever needs to tell you what you are really earning, and while opinions are collected, there are really no votes.

I think this is a fantastic observation. I was "groomed" for an academic career, but chose private practice first in part because of some epiphanous observations:

1) Academia doesn't innovate nearly as much as they like to believe. It's largely a very conservative environment.

2) You're limited in your ability to "control" your environment. It's like a being a well-conditioned mouse that lives in a cage. Academic physicians get all their basic needs met by there department and chairman. Yet, one day, the door is left open and the mouse has no will to leave. Some academic physicians become "conditioned" to the restraints of an academic practice and can't see past the ivory tower.

3) You don't hire and fire your staff (but your chairman does). You have a voice without a vote.

4) In academic practices, the further away you get from patient care, the more you're "rewarded." Most teaching activities are poorly rewarded. Thus, the pursuit for training grants, protected time, committees, etc. I found these activities very stimulating, but it creates a lop-sided reward system. Any chairman will tell you, "No money, no mission." But, attend any state of the department address, faculty meeting, etc and the rhetoric is all about "mission" and "service." At least in private practice, the economic realities are in clearer focus...

There is a crisis in academic medicine across all specialties. Read some of the NIH data about the # of physician-scientists coming through the pipe-line. It's meager. Read the faculty satisfaction surveys published by the AAMC. Not too rosey...

Physiatry has its own unique challenges in this endeavor. We desperately need quality research and "hard-nosed" academics pushing the envelope, but I don't think the field is sufficiently fertilized to grow the # we need. There is a widening gap between what private practice/community physiatry practice looks like and what academic practice looks like. I sometime fear that the field is training graduates with obsolete skills the day that they graduate. I think the field actually needs a "cross-fertilization" from community/private practice INTO academic practice...

ShrikeMD has some great observations about this! Maybe he'll chime in! He's lived both experiences...
 
As an academic who loves being an academic, I will offer a few thoughts:

First, there is a difference between being an academic in an academic center, and being an employee in an academic center. If your primary goal is to see patients (which is a reasonable goal), then academic centers are probably not the best model, since private practice can be more efficient in capturing revenue from seeing patients.

There are some major advantages, though, of working for an academic enterprise:

Financials/Logistics:
- usually have many expenses covered for you, such as malpractice, office overhead, support staff, etc.
- the downside of this is that you may have less control. For example, if you don't like a nurse or a transcriptionist, you may have less influence in whether that person gets fired or not
- the marketing of the greater institution- you can pull in patients from the institution, and not rely on marketing specific to you
- the downside is that they may not do as much marketing specific to you as would be ideal, depending on the institution
- Benefits. The benefits at academic institutions are often better than private practice, sometimes considerably so. Some academic benefits packages can equal 30-40% of your income. I don't know what is the case for private practice, but my impression is that 15% is more typical. once you factor in total compensation, you can actually come out ahead in academics. The main downside is that income is usually capped more in academics than in private practice.



Work environment advantages
- a more intellectually stimulating environment. I have one friend who switched from private practice back into academics, and there explanation was "in private practice, if I saw something interesting, there was no one to share it with. I turned to my left, and turned to my right, and all anyone cared about was the financials."
I certainly talk to my colleagues about marketing, branding, billing, etc., but it's not our primary focus. I usually have several conversations a week that last over an hour, just discussing patients and how to better manage them. I find that extremely fulfilling, and it would be unusual to have that in a private practice. I'd like to think it makes me a better physician, but certainly adds tremendously to my job satisfaction

- makes it easier to explore new clinical approaches. For example, I've developed an interest in exploring the impact of hormone regulation (particularly testosterone) on low back pain. I have a colleague in my department who does research in this area, and another clinical colleague who has looked into in SCI patients. Across the street, I have a friend who is a professor in geriatrics who has an extremely well-funded research history on the topic. These are incredibly valuable resources that have very much informed my clinical judgment.
I think for any clinician, there is tendency to become more conservative the further removed you are from training. Many (not all, but certainly many) private practice docs become extremely proficient at what they do, but still practice similarly 10 years out to what they did in training. And often times the changes they make over time are heavily influenced by commercial interests, with less influence from patient outcomes than is ideal.
I have found that being an academic has fostered an environment where my growth as a clinician has primarily been governed by a desire to improve patient care. I like that.


- interaction with colleagues at other institutions. One thing I've loved about being an academic is the friendships I've made with academics at other institutions. There is no better way to learn than to have a beer with someone who is smarter than you are. For example, at the AAP, I went to dinner with 8 colleagues, and we probably chatted for 3 or 4 hours. Much of it was social, but some of it was just trading ideas about we approached different things, whether clinically or in terms of how to be a better teacher. I think that is often easier to do as an academic than in private practice.


- interactions with medical students and residents. There are downsides of course (they can slow you down, bad ones are an emotional drain, etc), but I would say that 90% of the time, working with trainees is a significant positive. Examples:
- it makes you a better clinician. For example, since I have my residents perform spinal injections with me present, I've had to learn to articulate things that were second nature for me. That process of articulation has forced me to think things through more thoroughly.
- Another example- I've had to develop systematic methods to teach medical students how to do an efficient MSK exam. That process has streamlined the way I collect data, which will serve as the basis for outcomes related research I plan on doing
- They ask questions, which forces me to read and keep up on things
- Sometimes they do things differently than I would, and sometimes they do things better than I do, whether it asking a question in a particular way, approaching an exam maneuver differently, adding something to therapy I hadn't thought of, etc. They are constant source of stimulation
- they are fun. I guess that my residents or medical students make me smile at least 10 times a day. That's nice


- Mentorship- i would say this is, for me, the far and away biggest benefit of being an academic. There is nothing more satisfying than finding out you inspired a medical student to go into PM+R, or inspired a resident to do something they haven't done before, or to watch the growth of a resident as they learn from you. For example, I was teaching the resident EMGs this morning, and watching one of my residents learn how to remove to motor artifact from an ulnar sensory study was incredibly gratifying. It's a small moment, but when you see the summations of moments like that over time, it just inspires you. Similarly, I was watching the resident who worked with me last quarter hold a conversation with a surgeon a few weeks ago, and she blew me away with how well she knew the literature and how comfortable she was explaining why she made the decisions she made. To watch her shine like that and know that I had an impact, however small, was incredibly gratifying.

So, in short, while private practice has many significant benefits, I am perfectly happy being an academic, and think it's something that many residents should consider.

Thanks rehab-sports-dr,

Thats one of the best statements I've read on why to consider academics, you should give a talk at the AAPM&R. (the AAP are already converted)
 
This is a Question for Attendings or Kowledgeable residents.

Does anyone know what the reimbursement is for
Botox injections for spacticity?
Is it dependent upon the number of injection sites?
What about when done with the EMG probe?

I know in derm for aestetics, it is cash only so I was wondering when
the insurance companies have to pay, what the rate is.
 
This is a Question for Attendings or Kowledgeable residents.

Does anyone know what the reimbursement is for
Botox injections for spacticity?
Is it dependent upon the number of injection sites?
What about when done with the EMG probe?

I know in derm for aestetics, it is cash only so I was wondering when
the insurance companies have to pay, what the rate is.

I am an attending.

Despite what allergan reps have said, for patients with dense hemiplegia from stroke or brain injury-- this is not "tortocollis" (yeah, you look a little crooked...if you don't know what I mean, wait a couple years), or headache-- I have had the following experience:

Medicare/Medicaid paid 100% for drug
Medicare/medicaid paid 0% to doctor (me).

This is after submitting claims per the allergan billing consultants. Their answer: "That's strange, you should be getting paid."

I have one botox patient now, sees me about once every 8 months. It works great for him. I don't bother charging for the injection. I charge for the clinic visit.

Anyone with private insurance experience to the contrary, please chime in.
 
I am an attending.

Despite what allergan reps have said, for patients with dense hemiplegia from stroke or brain injury-- this is not "tortocollis" (yeah, you look a little crooked...if you don't know what I mean, wait a couple years), or headache-- I have had the following experience:

Medicare/Medicaid paid 100% for drug
Medicare/medicaid paid 0% to doctor (me).

This is after submitting claims per the allergan billing consultants. Their answer: "That's strange, you should be getting paid."

I have one Botox patient now, sees me about once every 8 months. It works great for him. I don't bother charging for the injection. I charge for the clinic visit.

Anyone with private insurance experience to the contrary, please chime in.

Thanks for the input. I don't know how they get away with paying for the drug and not the service. Seems unfair. Is their anyway to charge a premim for the medicine. AKA, mark it up as a pharmacy does.

Not quite sure what you mean about your first point but I am shocked to learn that Medicare/Medicaid are not reimbursing whatsoever for Botox. During one of my PM&R rotations, the attending had 1 day a week dedicated to this. He was doing quite a few spacticity treatments with Botox (very time consuming and tedious mixing process).

I did not ask him this question at the time in fear of being perceived the wrong way. I was under the impression that it was lucrative since he did so many. However, the patient in all likelihood were not Medicaid/Medicare, which speaks to the fact that private insurance re-imburses nicely.

If anyone has first hand experience with private insurance and Botox for spacticity please share.
 
This is a Question for Attendings or Kowledgeable residents.

Does anyone know what the reimbursement is for
Botox injections for spacticity?
Is it dependent upon the number of injection sites?
What about when done with the EMG probe?

I know in derm for aestetics, it is cash only so I was wondering when
the insurance companies have to pay, what the rate is.

Medicare will pay for the drug - about what you pay for it. As for the injection and EMG guidance - it varies by LMRP, mine currently pays about the same as for a joint injection. Not lucrative at all

Medicaid will usually cover the drug and pays for the procedure as well, but depending on your state, you may have to wait months or longer to get paid.

Private insurances still tend to pay well for Botoxification, except "Big Blue." Coverage varies greatly.
 
i'm curious if any physiatrists use botox for cosmetic purposes.
it seems that with a couple of "seminars", you would be able to do it. You know the muscles, origins, insertions, and how to inject. Does anyone dabble in it?
 
Medicare will pay for the drug - about what you pay for it. As for the injection and EMG guidance - it varies by LMRP, mine currently pays about the same as for a joint injection. Not lucrative at all

Medicaid will usually cover the drug and pays for the procedure as well, but depending on your state, you may have to wait months or longer to get paid.

Private insurances still tend to pay well for Botoxification, except "Big Blue." Coverage varies greatly.
what diagnosis codes do you use?
 
i'm curious if any physiatrists use botox for cosmetic purposes.
it seems that with a couple of "seminars", you would be able to do it. You know the muscles, origins, insertions, and how to inject. Does anyone dabble in it?

I did a rotation at place where the attendings were very excited about going to a conference in Florida about cosmetic botox. I don't think it's that difficult to do, especially if you've seen someone get 23 injections in their neck for torticollis.

However, I'm skeptical as to how these Physiatrists would ever hope to attract that kind of botox crowd to begin with. Those people self refer to Dermatologist's office, which increasingly setup shop in malls and have a spa like atmosphere. I just don't see them going out of their way to get it done at a Physiatrists office, unless they happened to have a stroke or a TBI and were offered it incidentally.
 
what diagnosis codes do you use?

I'll need to check with our billing dept. They sent me a list a few months ago of about 12 codes that medicare (at least our LMRP) still pays for. It's a far cry from the 50 - 60 or so they used to cover, such as myofascial pain syndrome and muscle cramp.
 
I did a rotation at place where the attendings were very excited about going to a conference in Florida about cosmetic botox. I don't think it's that difficult to do, especially if you've seen someone get 23 injections in their neck for torticollis.

However, I'm skeptical as to how these Physiatrists would ever hope to attract that kind of botox crowd to begin with. Those people self refer to Dermatologist's office, which increasingly setup shop in malls and have a spa like atmosphere. I just don't see them going out of their way to get it done at a Physiatrists office, unless they happened to have a stroke or a TBI and were offered it incidentally.


cosmetic botox injections arent exactly easy. you add too much at the wrong area, and all of a sudded half of the patient's face droops, or they cant open an eye. and these are the types of patients who notice every minute detail. you CAN get into this without much training, but its not a good idea if you really don't know what you are doing
 
I was good friends with a Derm who made it quite clear that cosmetic, cash pay patients were her equivalent of chronic pain patients.

What I meant above about torticollis: the allergan reps were eager to point out that it simply meant that someone had an assymetric posture, so go ahead and squirt everyone who looks crooked, and hey, the FDA says it's covered.

Private insurances frown on this, and I can't say I blame them.
 
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