Money in Psych getting better!!

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over the last 5-10 years, avg psych salaries have been listed at around $120-30 k. In the most recent "Physician Financial News", an article (on the renewed need for specialists) reported psychiatrists' average salaries at $160 k.

now, understanding that polling methods will vary, i, for one, do believe that an upward trend in psychiatry salaries is imminent. many academic psychiatrists see upward trends in interest, research, and USMG matches to residencies. these, along with more than 2 decades of decline and dearth of filled residency programs will create a supply vs. demand concern for psychiatrists. a greater demand will exist in the next 20 years for psychiatrists as newer diagnostic tools and treatments are developed for mental illnesses and the 'old' psychiatrists who graduated in the 1970s (the last time there was a boom in psych) from medical school start to retire.

also, these numbers are generally describing general or adult psychiatry. child/adol psychs are making upwards of $250 k and i've heard of forensic psychs making upwards of $500 k (for high profile cases).

and, while money is important (let's be honest here), you must factor in lifestyle issues. psychiatry is not a procedure driven specialty and therefore, not as technically demanding...it's a thinking and communicating specialty and likewise cannot command as many reimbursable procedures -- in some respects, the work is somewhat "easier." also, 'lower' salaries may also reflect lower malpractice costs for psychiatrists. finally, the mental health paraity bill may change the landscape for reimbursement for mental health treatment in this country and may further boost psychiatrists' salaries. lots of good things on the horizon, i think. best to get in on the ground floor.
 
great response, mnms!!! i've always been excited about psych - regardless of the salary. Thanks for a great post, dog!!
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
 
Yaaaaaay yaaaaay psychiatry :clap: yaaaaay yaaaaay!! :clap:
:laugh:

My quest for the perfect specialty is over.


(Money, hours, and generally not having to do much).


Muhahahahaha
 
in addition to a boost to salaries and the great lifestyle, psychiatry as an intellectual field is wide open for discovery and development. if you've ever wanted to add to a fund of knowledge and if smart/talented enough be a part of its history, psychiatry and other brain-science areas will be the place to be over the next generation or so.

the 90s was "decade of the brain" as it was called, and it will be only a few more years before that basic research translates into great medications and treatments for the mentally afflicted.

now presents is a unique experience to see one of the oldest fields medicine literally re-define its self in light of the touted "bio-psycho-social" model of psychiatry. already, there have been great strides in moving away from the psychiatry of old and starting to dissintigrate the stigmas of mental illness that plague psychiatry.

mental illness/psychiatry, i believe, while still the gadfly of modern medicine, is gaining general acceptance (in some circles, fashionable) and the cost (fiscal, social) of the effects of mental illness are being brought to the fore. it will take a generation of talented visionaries to take psychiatry into its modern realization as a serious, science capable of treating and curing, in my opinion, the most debilitating of illnesses. i am so excited bout this field, not for what it is, but for what it will become. we are on the cusp of something great, friends. it isn't for everyone, though, you've gotta love it, love the idea of it, and love those whose lives you'll change forever.

the brain is the most complex of all places. is it any wonder that it's absconded our understanding for this long? we may never understand it in its completeness, but the journey is what gives it meaning. if you're into a truly deep, meaningful specialty, psych's for you, money or not. i'd rather be making peanuts doing something i was excited about day in day out, than being paid derm dollars every day.

psych residencies have a tough choice ahead. because i believe, only the most interested apply, many residency programs will need to cut back on available positions to first make spots more competitive. this will attract the creme de la creme (and not to mention those who pick psych as a "fall-back" - let those pick family) and with increased competition, salaries, prestige, and validity will all rise (if you're interested).

any way, my two cents about my somewhat educated predictions about psychiatry (i did research at the INstitute of Medicine, Board on Neuroscience and Behavioral Health, National Academies of Science on the future of psychiatry). it'll be an exciting time!
 
psych residencies have a tough choice ahead. because i believe, only the most interested apply, many residency programs will need to cut back on available positions to first make spots more competitive. this will attract the creme de la creme (and not to mention those who pick psych as a "fall-back" - let those pick family) and with increased competition, salaries, prestige, and validity will all rise (if you're interested).
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If this happens, there will be a national crisis b/c of a shortage of psychiatrists. I'm assuming that this is would be a bad thing.
 
I honestly do not see such a bright future for psychiatry.

There is simply still too much stigma associated with psych illnesses. State psych hospitals are still at this moment being closed because government is cutting fundings to them (since it is always more justifiable to lock people up in prison rather than building more psych wards/hospitals for these needed individuals). Reimbursements with the insurance companies continue to be a battle. What is the first to go when insurance companies try to trim its services so it can cut down premium to attract customers? psych services covered by the plan! Do you ever hear people choosing between different medical coverage by the different plans based on the psych services covered by them? No! Nobody expects to be admitted to the psych ward soon and it is still on the back burner in most people's mind.
 
There are so many potential patients out there. Every time there is a new medicine invented for depression, or manic depression, or schizophrenia there will be a surge in the need for Psychiatrists. Plus all those medicines have to be managed on an outpatient basis. And it is either the psych ward or living on the sidewalk for a lot of patients.

Even though people don't anticipate going to a psych ward I have heard that 70% of people will experience a major Psychiatric episode in their lives.
 
I am really interested in the science of neurology, but I also am interested in the psychiatric disease aspect too.

Short of doing a residency in both neurology and psychiatry, does anyone know if it is common for neurologists to incorporate some amount of psychiatry into their practice? If so, what are the limits as to what kinds of things a neurologist can treat? The line is so fine between organic and non-organic diseases, especially for the idiopathic ones, I wonder how the line is drawn between the two fields.

Please, discuss.

PS Can anyone tell me what the average day is like for a psychiatrist in a city of say, ~500,000?

Tanks.
 
Guys, there is a difference between people needing the care v.s. their ability to pay or get insurance.

I know that there is a demand out there.

HOWEVER, psych illnesses are different. If you have diabetes, hypertension, etc., you can still work to earn money and keep your health insurance through your employees. It is not until later in life when you come down with MI or stroke where you are debilitated and unable to work. If you have infection, that's a short term problem.

BUT, psych illnesses such as depression and schizophrenia come up when you are in your 20's and 30's. If you are depressed, you will be staying at home and not go to work. Therefore, you would either 1) have no money to pay psychiatrists out of pocket or 2) have no job and therefore no health care insurance. If you are actively psychotic and having auditory hallucination, same thing; you cannot keep your job.

Psych patients do not have a lot of money to pay for meds and keep their psychiatrists. That's just the nature of the beast. So despite all these demands, there is not going to be a whole lot of money flowing through the system.
 
Keep in the mind the push that clinical psychologists are making to have perscription rights. If that trend continues, that will push down the need for psychiatrists.

Also, I have a family friend who is an MFT who says it's getting harder for MDs to practice because HMOs etc want to shell out the minimum amount of money, and that means they'll take someone with a masters or even PhD over an MD any day.
 
CaMD,
You're right, Insurance companies don't want MD's for psychotherapy, thats why MD's mostly prescribe meds now and don't do therapy. However, since most insurance companies try to stop reimbursing for therapy as much as possible, its not a huge deal. As far as psychologists getting prescription rights, it probably won't happen. This is because most are not interested in it and politicians would have to fight too much for it for a minority of psychologists. The case in New Mexico is rare because they have a senator, Pete Dominici, who is extremely pro mental healthcare. For the most part though, politicians could care less since it isn't a salient issue and part of the patient population of psychiatrists is already being medicated by family physicians, thereby easing the shortage of them. Whether this is proper medical care for patients is another matter.
 
Originally posted by Thewonderer


Guys, there is a difference between people needing the care v.s. their ability to pay or get insurance.

HOWEVER, psych illnesses are different. If you have diabetes, hypertension, etc., you can still work to earn money and keep your health insurance through your employees.

BUT, psych illnesses such as depression and schizophrenia come up when you are in your 20's and 30's.
Click to expand...

Lots of people go through short term crises that may not completely destroy their lives or their pocketbooks. There are plenty of manic depressive executives and attorneys out there.

As I mentioned 70% of people will have a major Psychiatric episode at one time in their lives. (hopefully only once!)

Plus psychiatric care should often be a component of other care since the demands of coping with major illnesses often brings on psychiatric illness.
 
Don't bash me, I am not dissing psych....I was considering it for a while, but I have to admit that one of things in the back of my head was, I am gonna be 200K + in debt when I graduate....how the hell am I gonna pay off those loans, have a house payment, car payment, malpractice insurance, etc. if I am making 120 K gross....by the time the gov't is done with it, say 90 K, and by the time I pay all my bills, seems like money would be tight.
Now before you start critizing me for including salary in my decision making process of what specialty to pursue, let me say, that its not all about salary to me. I want a career where I can first and foremost love what I am doing and as cliche'd as it may be, to make a difference. Ideally, I would like to combine that passion with a specialty that will allow me to get married, raise a family, and be able to provide for them without having to sweat over finances. Like I said, just my 2 cents and my experience, so try to keep the personal attacks to a minimum.
 
I find the things Thewonderer is saying to be true, from my experience. I see more and more Masters level having more work and more autonomy.

Also, I went to see a Doctor in Family Practice who had a good amount of experience stated he had no idea the medicine I was taking(Celexa,Risperdone) and said he never heard of it. That is scary if these FP guys are prescribing patients psych meds. Im sure he was not in the minority in FP Docs. In fact he even prescribed me Risperdone to be taken when needed. I don't think the medicine is really a PRN med, could be wrong though. The crazy thing was I never asked for him to change the med, he just did.

Lastly, the past two Psychiatrists i've seen have both tottaly shyed completly away from any type of psychotherapy. Kinda like they are following the heard of Insurance companys want them to do. I ask a question relating to my personal life, the Psychioatrist asks me how my medicine is doing...I tell him about my dog, he asks if we should adjust my medicine.
🙄
 
Originally posted by skypilot
Lots of people go through short term crises that may not completely destroy their lives or their pocketbooks. There are plenty of manic depressive executives and attorneys out there.

As I mentioned 70% of people will have a major Psychiatric episode at one time in their lives. (hopefully only once!)

Plus psychiatric care should often be a component of other care since the demands of coping with major illnesses often brings on psychiatric illness.
Click to expand...

I can agree with lots of manic depressive executives and attorneys and how many people will experience one episode once in their life time. However, other than that, we are getting into a theoretical discussion here where neither of us can back it up with data.

But from my point of view, if you have full blown bipolar or schizophrenia, you cannot work and get money to pay your psych MD. However, if you are hypomanic, which I am sure many overachievers and successful people are, you will be successful. But would these people necessarily seek out psychiatric help? Probably not. When they are hypomanic, they are happy, energetic and bring in lots of material successes. It is not until AFTER they become full-blown manic that they sense there MIGHT be a problem (during mania, they could care less about everything around them). And even at that point, it is not guaranteed that these people will seek the appropriate care. And if they have a few more manic episodes, I can assure you that they will lose their fortunes very fast and won't be the "successful" people in society anymore.

A few schoizophrenic patients also told me that they feel more "lonely" when they are on antipsychotics that are effective. When these pts are responding to their internal stimuli, they actually feel more occupied.

I just think that there are a lot of barriers in preventing psych pts from seeking help and taking their meds (for ex, people love being manic. once they slip a little and experience some euphoria associated with hypomania, they will immediately stop taking meds and get thrown in full-blown mania). But again, that's just the nature of the beast we are dealing with and I still don't see that much money flowing through the system..........
 
Hmm..

Some great discussion here..

But I wish to add one thought:

Psych is like any other profession. You can get what you want out of it.

You want academia? As was posted prior, there's probably no better field[!] than Psychiatry. Plus its interesting.

You want lifestyle? Well, its a low impact, low stress profession with easily designable hours. plus, emergencies are at a minimum --> little to no night call.

You want money? Go into private practice, hire a few Social workers and Psychologists. Branch a few offices.. and you're off to making easily $500k + (I know many psychologists in this class, an they are happily doing it.) Plus, go into Forensics or Child/Adol and you'll make $250+ on salaried positions. Folks -- there's money here. I don't know why the stats show it so low, but they do for all the fields!!

I'll give you an example -- take ophthalmology. We think they get tons of coin -- but you know what? A starting ophto in a metro area (general ophtho that is) wlll only make about $110k max! Rural area.. sure they can clean up. Do Vitreoretinal and you're looking at $250 starting. BUT, how many can match into those fellowships? They're really competitive.

You want a kick butt residency program? Well, a non-competitive medical student may end up in Nebraska doing derm or ophtho or something while getting the red carpet treatment to show up at NYU! True.

There's a lot of tradeoffs. Sure I am biased here. But just a few months back I was making this decision.

One final thought: If you work 80 hours a week and crank $250k. It stands to reason that you should be happy with $125k for 40 hours. You get paid one way or another. Sometimes in cash, sometimes in free time/lack of stress.

Ask a neurosurgeon who's in practice for a few years whether or not they'd be willing to trade down their 600k salary for 200k plus a life with a beautiful family.. hmm.. food for thought.

Plus, I think a lot of us MD students loose sight of just exactly HOW MUCH $120k per year really is. Folks, its' $10k per month. I don't know about you, but if the Mrs. works a bit, that's plenty of coin to do what I want -- and guess what? I'll have the time to do it.

[and also have another 40 hours a week free to invest in real-estate and out earn everyother MD 🙂 hehehe]


FSM
 
Originally posted by freespirit_md
You want money? Go into private practice, hire a few Social workers and Psychologists. Branch a few offices.. and you're off to making easily $500k + (I know many psychologists in this class, an they are happily doing it.) Plus, go into Forensics or Child/Adol and you'll make $250+ on salaried positions. Folks -- there's money here. I don't know why the stats show it so low, but they do for all the fields!!

I'll give you an example -- take ophthalmology. We think they get tons of coin -- but you know what? A starting ophto in a metro area (general ophtho that is) wlll only make about $110k max! Rural area.. sure they can clean up. Do Vitreoretinal and you're looking at $250 starting. BUT, how many can match into those fellowships? They're really competitive.

You want a kick butt residency program? Well, a non-competitive medical student may end up in Nebraska doing derm or ophtho or something while getting the red carpet treatment to show up at NYU! True.

There's a lot of tradeoffs. Sure I am biased here. But just a few months back I was making this decision.

One final thought: If you work 80 hours a week and crank $250k. It stands to reason that you should be happy with $125k for 40 hours. You get paid one way or another. Sometimes in cash, sometimes in free time/lack of stress.

Ask a neurosurgeon who's in practice for a few years whether or not they'd be willing to trade down their 600k salary for 200k plus a life with a beautiful family.. hmm.. food for thought.

Plus, I think a lot of us MD students loose sight of just exactly HOW MUCH $120k per year really is. Folks, its' $10k per month. I don't know about you, but if the Mrs. works a bit, that's plenty of coin to do what I want -- and guess what? I'll have the time to do it.



FSM
Click to expand...

I agree. I have heard of people going into Forensics or Child/Adol and make $250+ easily. However, I have never heard of general adult psychiatrists making close to $200k easily.

The hours I have heard for other specialities are better. One radiologist in the semi-rural area works 7 days out of every 28 days... all 12-hour night shifts. He or she has to work like a dog during those shifts because films from 4 other hospitals also come to her. But the rest of the 21 days, she gets to spend with her family. She racks in $400k.

There are plenty of specialties out there (radiology, anesthesia, derm, etc.) where the docs can dictate their hours (work 3 days a week and make more than a psychiatrist).

I personally also feel that dealing with suicidal patients and borderline pts are stressful enough. However, I do enjoy emergency psychiatry. I would do psych even if it entails 60-80 hours per week as an attending. However, I have no intention to go into child psych. I was drawn into psych because of the experience I had with general adult psych on the core rotation, not child psych or forensics.
 
Those who go into medicine to get rich never do so. At best, they reach higher levels of relative poverty.
 
originally posted by mnms in addition to a boost to salaries and the great lifestyle, psychiatry as an intellectual field is wide open for discovery and development. if you've ever wanted to add to a fund of knowledge and if smart/talented enough be a part of its history, psychiatry and other brain-science areas will be the place to be over the next generation or so.
Click to expand...

I do of course agree that the brain-sciences are a fertile terrain. But what makes it a special field is that it requires a very conceptually-oriented mind, because it deals with concepts so infinitely complex. So I would encourage only those minds that are both; highly motivated and highly sophisticated to join in.

originally posted by mnms mental illness/psychiatry, i believe, while still the gadfly of modern medicine, is gaining general acceptance (in some circles, fashionable) and the cost (fiscal, social) of the effects of mental illness are being brought to the fore. it will take a generation of talented visionaries to take psychiatry into its modern realization as a serious, science capable of treating and curing, in my opinion, the most debilitating of illnesses. i am so excited bout this field, not for what it is, but for what it will become. we are on the cusp of something great, friends. it isn't for everyone, though, you've gotta love it, love the idea of it, and love those whose lives you'll change forever.
Click to expand...

Great vision, couldn't have been phrased better.

originally posted by mnms "the brain is the most complex of all places. is it any wonder that it's absconded our understanding for this long? we may never understand it in its completeness, but the journey is what gives it meaning. if you're into a truly deep, meaningful specialty, psych's for you, money or not. i'd rather be making peanuts doing something i was excited about day in day out, than being paid derm dollars every day. "
Click to expand...

This paragraph of yours could stand alone. It captures an insight so important. One needs years to come at last to know what matters in life, and more importantly know what Does NOT. And surely money is essential for happiness, but IMHO I think lots of money are not essential for happiness (if essential for anything at all) and I agree that the happiest life is one spent in joy. Find a job you enjoy and you add 50 hours of happiness to your life each week. Can anyone imagine what amount of money can give you 50 hours of joy each week? I can hardly imagine that such kind of money really exist.
Anyway mnms, I surely think that we both look at life from very similar points of view and I wish you the very best of life.
 
Originally posted by Psychic
Find a job you enjoy and you add 50 hours of happiness to your life each week. Can anyone imagine what amount of money can give you 50 hours of joy each week? I can hardly imagine that such kind of money really exist.
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And 120k per year puts you in the 99th percentile of earners. If that aint enough for you then you will never be happy.
 
compared-to-athletes-and-movie-stars-physicians-are-paid-nothing-if-you-factor-all-the-years-of-study-on-call-and-actual-comfort-and-joy-we-provide-to-the-world

how-do-you-justify-making-300,000,000dollars-forhitting-a-ball-and-being-a-role-model-for-illegal-drugs!


mds-teachers-are-not-paid-well
 
If you are always comparing yourself to movie stars and baseball players you will never be happy. Their life may be different from yours but it is not necessarily better.

Try looking in the other direction to the 90% of the world that has little to eat, no access to education and you can count your lucky stars for the good life you have the opportunity to lead.

😀
 
Does anyone else feel that we, as Americans, have so many things that we take for granted, food, water, shelter that we've actually lost track of what the hell we're supposed to be doing here on this planet? Or do we all just believe that this is the way Darwin would have predicted we'd turn out?
Thank you skypilot.
 
Hi
Can anyone please tell me how to effectively answer when asked about reasons for choosing this speciality.I have always been interested in psychology & talking to people.Thats the reason I chose this branch but unfortunately I have no research experience in psychiatry which could show my keen interest(reason being no opportunity..I am an IMG) & so I feel it might not be convincing enough to them.Please guide on how to convince them that I am genuinely interested in psychiatry which is a truth.As a matter of fact I have difficulty convincing even my friends who think that after having good scores(actually average:207 & 221) how could I think of just applying in psychiatry which is so unreal(thats the term my friend used).I personally feel that its like exploring the unknown..& thats the thing which makes it fascinating.Infact if i dont get into a decent program this year I am thinking of doing a research in psychiatry somewhere before applying next year coz i cant think of doing anything else in my life.
Another things is that I am very interested in the psychotherapy trainging.Is it ok to mention this during interviews?I was concerend because most programs emphasise on psychopharmacology & they might think of this as a negative point.
The interviews I have coming up are
Albert einstein beth israel
(Mount sinai) cabrini medical center
Nassau uni medical center
Maimonides medical center
SUNY brooklyn health center
Please lemme know if you have any idea about the programs here.Any input will be reeeeeeeeeeeaally appreciated.Thanks & good luck.
God bless



If anybody else can guide me on this please do so.......thanks a ton.
 
why dont you just be HONEST and tell them the reason you want to do psychiatry-actually the fact that you are interested in doing psychotherapy is a plus and and all the reasons you are describing are great.

When you try to BS the interviewers they will SEE right thru YOU-believe me I have been an interviewer of medical students for both medicasl school and residency positions

Why do you want to waste your time doing research for a year-do you know anyone who was rejected from a psychaitry resdiency ??

I thought there were not enought applicants-if you are willing to mastch anywhere why waste a year doing research??
 
I do want to join Psychiatry this year but because I applied late I had very few interviews(just 6) .Out of those there are only 3 that I am really interested in.Rest of the places I found the residents were miserable & I dont want to be one of them.Moreover all university programs want US Psych experience from the IMGs.So I feel that if I want to land in a good Univ program then may be I should do a research for an year.I am not keen on wasting an year though.Just trying to decide whether to take an average program or try again next year.Is it easy to get transfer to another psych program(in PGY2) after an year if you are not happy with the program.

Thanks..
 
Originally posted by deeaan
I do want to join Psychiatry this year but because I applied late I had very few interviews(just 6) .Out of those there are only 3 that I am really interested in.Rest of the places I found the residents were miserable & I dont want to be one of them.Moreover all university programs want US Psych experience from the IMGs.So I feel that if I want to land in a good Univ program then may be I should do a research for an year.I am not keen on wasting an year though.Just trying to decide whether to take an average program or try again next year.Is it easy to get transfer to another psych program(in PGY2) after an year if you are not happy with the program.

Thanks..
Click to expand...

Transferring into PGY2 of another program is not that hard. But if you go into a program thinking about transferring out, then that's not a good idea.

As an IMG, you are applying as an independent candidate and you might be able to sign outside of the match. You might want to explore that opportunity and see if you can sign a contract before the programs and you send in the rank list and have to proceed with the match.

Lastly, psych fellowships are not competitive at all yet. so just going to a good psychiatry program, I am sure you will become a good psychiatrist and still have fellowships open up to you.
 
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