Money vs. Minority?

[Dr. Pepper]

It seems a lot of people have either strong approval of or strop opposition towards the preference that admissions officers give to URMs (Actually, there's a thread about 5 down from here on this same topic haha)

HOWEVER, I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but do you think it would be more justified if adcoms gave preference based on ECONOMIC inequalities?

I'm not resentful against URMs for two reasons: 1. Diversity is important on an ideal level... 2. If I was an URM, I would probably take advantage as well

However, since it sparks such controversy, I think that maybe they should change the policy to give an advantage to those who don't have as much money, rather than people who are part of a minority.

For example, there are several URMs who have wealthy families and live in good conditions. In that sense, giving them the upper hand is not only unnecessary, but really unfair due to the fact that AA is supposed to help people IN NEED while, obviously, such people are just fine.

Now, let's say that someone is dirt poor since he was born...he can't even afford pencils and he sold his gall bladder on the black market for a microscope. I don't care if he's native american or caucasian, that dude should get an advantage in my opinion.

Anyway, I just thought it was an intriguing idea. Feel free to post your response.

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[Philo]

It seems a lot of people have either strong approval of or strop opposition towards the preference that admissions officers give to URMs (Actually, there's a thread about 5 down from here on this same topic haha)

HOWEVER, I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but do you think it would be more justified if adcoms gave preference based on ECONOMIC inequalities?

I'm not resentful against URMs for two reasons: 1. Diversity is important on an ideal level... 2. If I was an URM, I would probably take advantage as well

However, since it sparks such controversy, I think that maybe they should change the policy to give an advantage to those who don't have as much money, rather than people who are part of a minority.

For example, there are several URMs who have wealthy families and live in good conditions. In that sense, giving them the upper hand is not only unnecessary, but really unfair due to the fact that AA is supposed to help people IN NEED while, obviously, such people are just fine.

Now, let's say that someone is dirt poor since he was born...he can't even afford pencils and he sold his gall bladder on the black market for a microscope. I don't care if he's native american or caucasian, that dude should get an advantage in my opinion.

Anyway, I just thought it was an intriguing idea. Feel free to post your response.

Many schools do give an advantage to individuals from a poor economic background. Coming from a poor economic background is evidence of a great disadvantage that one has to overcome and struggle against in order to fulfill their career goals. This is information that can be included in the autobiographical essay or personal statement that is given great consideration by many schools.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Preference should be given along lines that have absolutely nothing to do with anything of genetic determination or place of origin (basically it should not matter if you're brown, white, or yellow). Economics should also play a very small role in it, because the question here is not whether you deserve extra help because your parents were poor (as mine are), but rather will you make a good physician. End of story.

 

[jbone]

Preference should be given along lines that have absolutely nothing to do with anything of genetic determination or place of origin (basically it should not matter if you're brown, white, or yellow). Economics should also play a very small role in it, because the question here is not whether you deserve extra help because your parents were poor (as mine are), but rather will you make a good physician. End of story.

The gospel by Praetorian. amen.

 

[omgwtfbbq?]

but just because you're an urm doesn't mean you're poor. My best friend is latina, went to yale, just got into Johns Hopkins and her parents are both lawyers...... I always feel like such a pauper whenever I go over to her house!!!!!!! It's quite depressing Whereas I'm white and have about $3.07 in my bank account, according to wells fargo online. ohhhhhhh, that last interview really hurt more than i thought ...... *sells a kidney*

 

[DrBowtie]

Preference should be given along lines that have absolutely nothing to do with anything of genetic determination or place of origin (basically it should not matter if you're brown, white, or yellow). Economics should also play a very small role in it, because the question here is not whether you deserve extra help because your parents were poor (as mine are), but rather will you make a good physician. End of story.

Do you think intelligence is genetic?

 

[noonday]

The gospel by Praetorian. amen.

well, though, how does one define who makes the best doctor? i mean, it's not all brains (and let's not even start about how grades/numbers are far from accurate measures of "intelligence"), right? it's also empathy. compassion. and the ability to both respect the patient and be able to understand where they are coming from.

seriously. i'd love to see a study of how many women prefer their gyn to be a woman....i mean, personally, i have an NP instead of an MD for my gyn services because my HMO didn't have any female MD's with empty spaces for new patients, and i don't want to have to talk to a man about that, because i know he can't "get" it. don't people deserve the option of having a doctor with some understanding of their lives? of the limits on their wellness self-care? of their cultural sensitivites and variations?

so, after a cut off for competence, shouldn't diversity matter so that the customer (patient) can get the product (care) the way they want it?

 

[DrBowtie]

You would be surprised. I believe it is 70% prefer women. It has been said many times it is actually men who are more sympathetic to ob/gyn issues since they must rely on you rather than their personal experiences. I.E. You come in complaining of cramps. The guy has no concept of what those cramps feel like so if you say they are a 10, they are a 10. A woman has felt said cramps before and would be more likely to discount your pain.

Whether it is correct or not, it is a rational I have heard more than once.

 

[BooMed]

I have read that that is actually a big problem for men wanting to go into OB/GYN, and that during their residencies a lot of women will refuse treatment from them. I think that is really too bad... I've gone to some terrible females gynos who were complete b*itches. The nicest one, who I really liked and went to until I moved, happened to be a man. I think women should give male gynos a chance.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Do you think intelligence is genetic?

Only partly. I think there is a disposition towards intelligence, but that the environment the child is raised in plays a far greater role.

 

[Dr.Pdizzle]

seriously. i'd love to see a study of how many women prefer their gyn to be a woman....i don't want to have to talk to a man about that, because i know he can't "get" it. don't people deserve the option of having a doctor with some understanding of their lives? of the limits on their wellness self-care? of their cultural sensitivites and variations?

so, after a cut off for competence, shouldn't diversity matter so that the customer (patient) can get the product (care) the way they want it?

Hmm I agree. I perfer a woman doctor to check out my nuts and bolts over a man--I can't really explain it, it just feels right. I guess that makes me sexist toward my own gender, if that's feasible.

No but seriously, we're never going to get rid of racism as long as we keep making it an issue. I want the doc that's good at what they're doing, I don't care if it's a hob-globlin, if it can help me I'm all for it.

 

[The Madden Bus]

I have read that that is actually a big problem for men wanting to go into OB/GYN, and that during their residencies a lot of women will refuse treatment from them. I think that is really too bad... I've gone to some terrible females gynos who were complete b*itches. The nicest one, who I really liked and went to until I moved, happened to be a man. I think women should give male gynos a chance.

Hmm, well by the same token I wouldn't be opposed to a female doctor examining my prostate. I think men do understand it better though because they have one. The same way female gynocologists understand vaginas better. lol

 

[dbhvt]

Preference should be given along lines that have absolutely nothing to do with anything of genetic determination or place of origin (basically it should not matter if you're brown, white, or yellow). Economics should also play a very small role in it, because the question here is not whether you deserve extra help because your parents were poor (as mine are), but rather will you make a good physician. End of story.

It would be nice if it worked like this, but unfortunately the methods used to determine who would make a good physician are indirect. Admissions committe's have to ask what your GPA and MCAT are, or what interesting EC's (ie, connections) you have rather than peering into your soul and the future. The theory is that certain ethnic and racial groups have a distinct advantage in the measurable catagories where other ethnic and racial groups have a distinct disadvantage.

Luckily, admissions committes don't just operate on the assumption that all minorities have a disadvantage in the measurable catagories, but rather assume that one group is not necessarily genetically or socially superior, and that all racial and ethnic groups are equal. Then you look at the proportion of various groups who are doctors and say, well gosh, if black folks are just as good at this whole being a doctor thing, and yet the proportion of black doctors in our country is lower than the proportion of black people in our country, either we were wrong about black folks being just as good at doctoring as white folks, or our stupid ass way of measuring who would make a good doctor isn't quite up to snuff. So, in order to correct for the stupid ass part, they give black people a closer look. It's a functional definition: UNDER REPRESENTED minorities, and I think it's a damn good way to correct for bias in the measurement.

 

[Saluki]

I'm relucant to jump into the URM preference debate, because my opinion of let the best credentials win, but if they're even give it to the URM is not considered pc. My family's from the wrong side of the poverty line, so while I'm a big fan of a black kid from a poor background who did well in college, I'm not real sympathetic to middle class black kids getting an easier entrance because of their skin color.
As far dhbvt (sp?), I think you're making it too simple- it might not be that blacks are instrically inferior or that tools like MCAT and gpa aren't good ways to determine who would make good med students and intelligent doctors. I personally don't think that there is much difference between the races intellectually, though there may be some, just as there are some differences in physique between blacks and whites, whites and Asians... MCAT and gpa aren't perfect measurements- GPA can be affected by work responsiblities, difficulty of the courseload, etc. while MCAT is always going to be easier for the wealthier kids- because of the cost of prep courses and because they can choose to not work while they prepare for it freeing up more study time. Does that make it unfair? Yes, but it's just as unfair for the poor white kid as the poor black one. Why should two kids from the same socioeconomic background be evaluated differently because of race? Part of the reason that many African-Americans are not getting into medical school (or aren't coming in with the same credentials) is because of a different attitude towards education than groups like Asians which heavily emphasize education. I think this trend towards affirmative action is similar to the "everyone's a winner" attitude so popular in a lot of public schools, where almost every child is on the honor roll. It would be nice if the races were equal in everything. In a lot of cases, Jews and Asians are overrepresented in med school; is that because of racial attitudes or is it because those groups put a high priority on academic success? There are tons of programs for minority students to get into college- that should even the playing field enough that by senior year, they should be able to score the same on the MCAT as students from a similar economic background. If they can't or won't, that's sad, but there are too many kids from all different races who desperately want to get in but can't to give preference to the underqualified for the sake of having a class in proportion with the rest of society because it's never going to happen. I bet if you went to Stanford Medical School and looked at the financial aid information that 90% of the kids are from at least middle-class and that the majority had college educated parents. A med school class is not representative of society- it's representative of the middle and upper classes and a select few achievers from the lower classes...

 

[OzDDS]

Part of the reason that many African-Americans are not getting into medical school (or aren't coming in with the same credentials) is because of a different attitude towards education than groups like Asians which heavily emphasize education. I think this trend towards affirmative action is similar to the "everyone's a winner" attitude so popular in a lot of public schools, where almost every child is on the honor roll. It would be nice if the races were equal in everything. In a lot of cases, Jews and Asians are overrepresented in med school; is that because of racial attitudes or is it because those groups put a high priority on academic success? ..

Great post! I think you have hit the nail directly on the head with this one. I think this is the greatest problem in the african american population in the united states at the moment. The opportunities are there for the ones who desire to take advantage of them.. many just don't. But, For the kids who Do desire to achieve good marks and set goals then they get chastised and teased from their peers for "submitting" or obeying white society.

Plus.. When you have a bunch of single black mothers singlehandedly raising a handful of boys.. regardless of race ... then they are going to have a higher chance of getting invovled in crimes and street violance and gangs. This is rife in the black community in the US.
What these kids need are Strong positive black MALE role models encouraging them to stay in school and to stay out of gangs and off the streets. Even if they don't have a father.. they need someone!

I was fairly unsympathetic to the "bush hates black people" comments that came from Kanye Wests mouth on the red cross katrina telethon. I seriously think that if Kanye really wants to help "his people" then maybe he should be out in the community helping to set a better example for young black men to stay in school and puruse an education.. rather than telling them to drop out of school and become a "gansta rapper". From the man who titled his debut album.. "the college dropout". Seriously.. what kind of messege is that to send to the future black men of america? Grow up Kanye!

 

[CaveatLector]

Very eloquently put mashce. And Bill Cosby agrees...

 

[Queenshawtii]

he should be out in the community helping to set a better example for young black men to stay in school and puruse an education.. rather than telling them to drop out of school and become a "gansta rapper". From the man who titled his debut album.. "the college dropout". Seriously.. what kind of messege is that to send to the future black men of america? Grow up Kanye!

1) If a black kid isn't in school it doesn't mean that they are "in the streets" or "gangbanging" somewhere (i understand what your trying to say but that just bugged me) most of them are working just like everyone else..

2) Kanye West in no way, shape or form is a "gangsta rapper"

3) I'm not a kanye fan but the whole point of him labeling his album "the college dropout" is because many people think that going to college and getting a degree is the only way to have a well paying job..

 

[DrBowtie]

1) If a black kid isn't in school it doesn't mean that they are "in the streets" or "gangbanging" somewhere (i understand what your trying to say but that just bugged me) most of them are working just like everyone else..

2) Kanye West in no way, shape or form is a "gangsta rapper"

3) I'm not a kanye fan but the whole point of him labeling his album "the college dropout" is because many people think that going to college and getting a degree is the only way to have a well paying job..

It is the only way for 99.9% of people to have a well paying job.
.1% of people have the talent to be a musician/athelete.

 

[OzDDS]

It is the only way for 99.9% of people to have a well paying job.
.1% of people have the talent to be a musician/athelete.

Exactly.. I think it is misleading to expect just cause Kanye made it without a college education.. that everyone can. I think by promoting that.. he is doing a diservice to his community.

 

[DrBowtie]

Exactly.. I think it is misleading to expect just cause Kanye made it without a college education.. that everyone can. I think by promoting that.. he is doing a diservice to his community.

I agree. He is selling a pipe dream to people who can't afford to chase it.

 

[Queenshawtii]

It is the only way for 99.9% of people to have a well paying job.
.1% of people have the talent to be a musician/athelete.

I agree with you that it's not very likely to "make it" to full rock star or athlete status but the message that i get from him is what are you going to do once u get a degree in a subject that doesn't have many job opportunies? You just paid for a degree that u can't start a career with.

 

[DrBowtie]

I agree with you that it's not very likely to "make it" to full rock star or athlete status but the message that i get from him is what are you going to do once u get a degree in a subject that doesn't have many job opportunies? You just paid for a degree that u can't start a career with.

I still find him and his message completely ridiculous. He is 100% doing a disservice to his community and culture.

The disparity continues over time. The median income for households headed by high school dropouts is $18,000, reports the National Center for Educational Statistics. For high school grads, the average is $28,700. For college graduates: $50,500. The difference in average lifetime earnings adds up to about $900,000.

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