Moral advice

[Bumpalump]

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Okay…I suppose this probably isn’t the BEST place to get personal opinions on moral issues, but I don’t have a lot of close friends and this allows for an anonymous forum to ask for ideas/opinions of others. My situation is this: I was pregnant at 17, married at 19 and widowed before I was 21. I thwarted my college dreams by the decisions I made early on (i.e. having sex) I feel I have taken responsibility up to this point and put off college to work and be a good mother. My son is now seven and I was remarried two years ago. We bought a house, had a beautiful baby boy together and my new husband adopted my first son. I have been at the same job for the past six years and I hate it! I am so miserable, but have stuck it out because I’ve felt I had no other choice. I was a great student 4.0 throughout high school (passed up a full ride to Marquette University to work and be on our own with my son) and am depressed everyday by the opportunity I missed. I have recently discovered that if I were to become divorced I would be eligible to receive benefits through Social Secur. Adimn. as the surviving parent of a child under 16. I have talked to my husband about selling the house and renting so that I can go to school. I am willing to give up everything (besides my family) to go to school and become an MD. My husband is very supportive, but older than me and not willing to give up the house. The leagal divorce/ssa benefit seems like a viable (though morally questionable) solution for me to be able to go to school. I could stop work and go to school. Our budget would be cut significantly, but we could still keep the house. As an MD I would be worth much more to SS than in my current line of work. I would more than pay back the benefits we will receive. To anyone who read this far, thanks. To anyone willing to post a reply with some opinion, thanks X 100. 🙂

 

[CTexile]

So your question is should you get legally divorced in order to qualify for SS benefits? I'm assuming your marriage is otherwise fine and this would be a financial play?

I certainly can't encourage you to defraud the social security system (this assumes the divorce would be done purely to reap these benefits). Have you explored other financial options? I just can't imagine divorce/fraud is the best solution available to you.

Morally I don't think this course of action can be justified. Try to sit down with a financial advisor to figure out how this could be worked out in other fashions. Unless I'm misinterpreting you, what you propose is a really bad idea. Good luck though- I certainly can relate to wishing you'd done things differently earlier in life, albeit not to the same degree.

 

[Pemberley]

I'm a little uncertain why either selling your house or going on welfare would be necessary... are you not eligible for Stafford loans?

 

[trustwomen]

I think getting divorced, even in name only, might somehow harm your relationship with your husband, who sounds like a good guy. I personally wouldn't take that chance. Besides, you can take out loans to go to school without having to get all complex, no? As an MD you will be able to pay them off, no problem, you are young and have a long career ahead of you. What kind of benefits are you talking about? I don't think they could be that large, and if they are that large, then SS will have an incentive to investigate/verify and will soon find out that your divorce is in name only - and cut you off, take back the money they gave so far, and possibly prosecute you for fraud (in which case - forget about becoming an MD with that on your record!). They investigate welfare recipients, and that is (presumably) less money than what you are envisaging.

If it isn't in name only, if you actually move out with your son, your relationship and family life could be in jeopardy. I just don't see how you could pull this off for eight years. I don't have large moral qualms about doing it per se, but I don't think it's as easy to do as you think.

You should (and can, I think) find another way to follow your dreams. Loans, for instance. (You are already prepared to tighten your belt for a few years, after all).

 

[Bumpalump]

I'm a little uncertain why either selling your house or going on welfare would be necessary... are you not eligible for Stafford loans?

Our budget is already tight (house poor) and I could not cut back my hours in order to make time for classes/studying. I work 40-45 hours a week and we depend on my monthly income.

 

[Bumpalump]

I think getting divorced, even in name only, might somehow harm your relationship with your husband, who sounds like a good guy. I personally wouldn't take that chance. Besides, you can take out loans to go to school without having to get all complex, no? As an MD you will be able to pay them off, no problem, you are young and have a long career ahead of you. What kind of benefits are you talking about? I don't think they could be that large, and if they are that large, then SS will have an incentive to investigate/verify and will soon find out that your divorce is in name only - and cut you off, take back the money they gave so far, and possibly prosecute you for fraud (in which case - forget about becoming an MD with that on your record!). They investigate welfare recipients, and that is (presumably) less money than what you are envisaging.

If it isn't in name only, if you actually move out with your son, your relationship and family life could be in jeopardy. I just don't see how you could pull this off for eight years. I don't have large moral qualms about doing it per se, but I don't think it's as easy to do as you think.

You should (and can, I think) find another way to follow your dreams. Loans, for instance. (You are already prepared to tighten your belt for a few years, after all).

I may be naïve, but I didn't/don't know of anything illegal in the divorce/SSA plan. We live in a state where there is no fault divorice meaning we can divorce just on the fact that we don't want to be married anymore. We can even request co-ownership of the house/status quo and legally still live together.

 

[trustwomen]

Our budget is already tight (house poor) and I could not cut back my hours in order to make time for classes/studying. I work 40-45 hours a week and we depend on my monthly income.

Smaller/cheaper house maybe?

Or larger loans, combination of public/private, that will allow you to contribute that income? (I can't imagine your income is that high, from what you describe?)

If SS is really enough to compensate for your income PLUS pay for your school, I can see how you would be tempted. However, they don't just throw money at people based on paperwork. You'd be gambling on at least eight years (undergrad plus med school) of them not investigating/verifying, during which they would give you a considerable sum of cash. Unlikely.

And if they catch you (say) in year five, you have to pay back everything they have given you since the start, and possibly face prosecution. And as I say, forget about that MD if that happens. Hell, med schools can withdraw your degree from you even after granting it, in cases where they can prove you lied on your app (like being divorced/not) and then you can't practice.

There is another way. Yes, it's financially painful, but that's just what we all have to do.

 

[Pemberley]

Our budget is already tight (house poor) and I could not cut back my hours in order to make time for classes/studying. I work 40-45 hours a week and we depend on my monthly income.

I would talk with a financial aid office. An estimate of living expenses is included in your loan package. I don't know what adjustments are made for people with children.

According to the Duke financial aid people I talked with yesterday, the value of a house does not raise your expected family contribution. Any assets you gained by selling it would. Any money you got from social security would. In other words, any efforts you take toward getting more income now will result in the lowering of any need-based grants you happen to get. The money will simply be taken from you. (Turns out, the savings that I worked hard to accumulate for my children's education during eight years of working will simply be taken! My classmates, who still have those eight years in front of them, will get grant money that will be subtracted from my package as a penalty for having worked and lived responsibly! 😡 )

But don't take my word for any of this. Set up an appointment for the financial aid office and get it from the horse's mouth.

I would never, ever divorce, even in name. Family is too important. Your rights and duties as a wife (to make decisions in case he is incapacitated, etc) might be hampered. And, finally, I really don't think it should be necessary. Do some research before taking any drastic steps.

 

[DrMom]

Preserve your family and take out loans like everyone else. You'll have to cut back & maybe move to a less expensive house (I wouldn't personally blow money on rent), but lots of people have done it before.


Also, as far as your "worth to SS" as a physician. There is an income cap for SS and Medicare withholdings. In other words, once you make over a certain amount, no more $ is withheld for SS & MC for any income you make over that amount. Physician incomes are well over that threshold amount.

 

[trustwomen]

I may be naïve, but I didn't/don't know of anything illegal in the divorce/SSA plan. We live in a state where there is no fault divorice meaning we can divorce just on the fact that we don't want to maried anymore. We can even request co-ownership of the house/status quo and legally still live together.

They cut off welfare benefits to women who are living with a new boyfriend. Don't have to be married. You would be considered common-law anyway. Saying "he's just a roommate now, you should not consider his income as family income" is the fraud. And they do investigate.

 

[Bumpalump]

When I filled out my FASFA last time I wasn't eligible for anything because of our combined income. How do I qualify for loans if we earn $80/yr combined??

 

[DrMom]

are you talking about undergraduate loans or med school loans?

you'll qualify for med school loans, although the first year you won't have any subsidized (which is only a small portion anyways).


also, with 80K income you should be able to find some way to cut back & survive. less expensive house, refinancing, moving to a less expensive area...

 

[trustwomen]

Turns out, the savings that I worked hard to accumulate for my children's education during eight years of working will simply be taken! My classmates, who still have those eight years in front of them, will get grant money that will be subtracted from my package as a penalty for having worked and lived responsibly! 😡 )

I feel for you Pemberley. I'm kind of in the same situation, not from savings but from income. Because I work, I am ineligible for provincial grants. I wind up working for 40 cents on the dollar: 40 cents lost due to opportunity cost of grants (i.e. if I didn't work, I'd get 40% of my current income for free, via grants), and 20 cents in taxes. But they calculate income january to january, yet decide the loans/grants in September. So if I quit, say, in January, I still don't get a penny until next fall and have bills and tuition to pay in the meantime. I am therefore stuck. And it is getting really annoying to combine med school and work. Every second weekend, I work five shifts between midnight friday and 8 am monday.

I guess we have the satisfaction of knowing we are responsible people, or something...

 

[trustwomen]

When I filled out my FASFA last time I wasn't eligible for anything because of our combined income. How do I qualify for loans if we earn $80/yr combined??

Public loans hate high incomes; private loans love them. Banks will throw money at you.

 

[trustwomen]

also, with 80K income you should be able to find some way to cut back & survive. less expensive house, refinancing, moving to a less expensive area...

To be fair to the OP, there are some entire regions where you really can't find a house for less than 250K no matter how crappy. (Or even a two-bedroom condo, which would be the absolute minimum for a family with two kids). And once her income went bye-bye, let's say hers is 30 and his is 50, there are places where you cannot, at all, afford any kind of home with a 50k income (and 2 kids!).

That said, loans can and will fill in the gaps. And the principle is sound; there's always somewhere we can cut our budgets when we make 80K. That's more than my combined income with my SO, and man do we waste money.

 

[frasermed]

Congrats. On Making the decision to return to school. I do have to say that your comment doesn't sound like a moral conflict but one of confusion. Before starting schools it may be necessary to address why you would consider divorcing a man with whom you have made a family and a life. I am sure this makes him feel unimportant in your life and despensible. And take a look at why it is you don't have any close friends you can talk to about this situation in your life. You are about to embark on a life changing quest. Believe me, once you begin school you will need your husband and friends to lean on for support on those days you need to get away from the kids; you've got a paper to write or you are just plain old wiped out. These people will be needed. I am a full-time social worker and counselor, and your idea about collecting the survivor benefits inorder to return attend college sounds a bit erie. I don't suggest this at all because, one day this is a decision that will have some adverse emotional effects. I am curious as to why you wouldn't be eligible for Federal Student Financial Assistance. If you have never been to college and haven't used it. It's yours. The government will provide you with the money for school. Check it out!

Bumpalump. Be extremely careful of the decisions you make entering this phase. It is obivious that you will be a really good student and will take it serious. You are a mother and wife. This is not easy. My suggestion would be to continue working and take one or two classes at night for the next year to get back into the college groove. Be sure to hook up with a good guidance counselor to assist you in the process. The counselor will help you get on the track with planning out the courses you will need and also to help you in making the decision about which school will be appropriate for you.

I do wish you the best of luck hope that you will continue to be strong. Don't give up on your dream if this is what you want. Relax. Take Inventory. Then Go.!

Cheers.

 

[ophelia]

I second what everyone above has said about fraud. My husband is a law clerk and his judge recently sentenced a woman for SS fraud. Basically, she claimed to be single when she was living with and was supported by her boyfriend. Now she is going to federal prison for several years (it was not her first conviction). You can't jeopardize your future or your family this way. Please reconsider your plan.

 

[trustwomen]

frasermed, you should read the responses first! She wants to divorce in name only, and keep living with her husband in their house. Which I'm fairly sure is not what SS intended when they talk about survivor benefits for "single mothers", and am furthermore pretty sure they would have regulations against it, meaning it would be fraud.

Actually, OP, why not go call SS, anonymously, and ask? Or look up the wording of the benefits? Heck, if it is completely legal, go for it. I feel better about a dedicated future MD getting tax money than I feel about most ways that tax dollars are spent (war, pork, subsidies for corporations).

Edit: just read the above post. As suspected, it's illegal. Don't do it OP, not worth the risk. Federal prison? Damn.

 

[GreyBlueEyes]

there are a lot of possibilities here, though it's hard to give you advice without knowing more about the situation.

first of all, the FAFSA determines your expected contribution. you can get federal loans for anything beyond your contribution. what's important here is that the calculated cost of attending school is not jsut tuition, but room, board, food, transportation, etc. i'm still working on my BS and my tuition is only $1500/semester but the cost of attendance is something like $16,000 per year. i get federal loans for the difference, which is enough for us to cover what i need money for (tuition and childcare). i don't work, but my husband earns a good income. i went from staying home with my children back to school.

so, when you did the FAFSA, what was your expected contribution? if it was LESS than the *cost of attendance* of the school you plan to go to, you can get loans for the difference. additionally, you can get PRIVATE school loans for your entire expected contribution. in our case, our expected contribution is about $7000, but i'm getting $10,500 per year in stafford loans (the cap for a junior). if i wanted to, i could get an additional $7000 in private education loans. these usually have a slightly higher interest rate, but they still have the same deferment policy.

something else to consider here is that if you still have your initial two years to complete, MANY schools/community colleges now do distance education for that two years, which would allow you to stay home with any kids while they're not in school, which would remove the expense of daycare. for instance, i completed my AS of Math and Science through SUNY while we were stationed in NY. you won't even be able to tell on my degree that i did it through distance education; it'll just have the name of the college i'm receiving the degree from. same coursework, same teachers.

i definitely wouldn't discount quitting your job and applying for welfare such as food stamps. the system is *supposed* to help people who are trying to better themselves and would ultimately give more back to the community than they would've without such aid.

if you DO quit your job, and your FAFSA no longer reflects your actual financial situation, just call the school and talk to them. they expect you to do that 🙂 you just call and explain that your FAFSA is based on the taxes for a certain year, but your income is now far below that (because you've quit your job to return to school) and they'll work with you for a solution. they might be able to help you get a stafford loan. no matter WHAT your situation, you can definitely get private loans, as long as one or both of you has decent credit (doesn't have to be fantastic, just decent).

i'd recommend against getting a divorce for the sake of money. you know it's not ethical or you wouldn't be asking if it is or not 😉 i certainly understand the temptation, but using unethical means to pursue a goal will ultimately hurt you, i think (call me naive and idealistic, but i like to believe in karma).

although frankly, if my husband wasn't willing to compromise and work with me to help me achieve my dreams, i might consider divorcing him for real. yours might just need some time to adjust to the idea of things changing. just make sure you make him understand how serious you are about this.

 

[DrMom]

To be fair to the OP, there are some entire regions where you really can't find a house for less than 250K no matter how crappy. (Or even a two-bedroom condo, which would be the absolute minimum for a family with two kids). And once her income went bye-bye, let's say hers is 30 and his is 50, there are places where you cannot, at all, afford any kind of home with a 50k income (and 2 kids!).

That said, loans can and will fill in the gaps. And the principle is sound; there's always somewhere we can cut our budgets when we make 80K. That's more than my combined income with my SO, and man do we waste money.

I think we're on the same page here. I do realize that some parts of the country are very expensive. I know people who have chosen to move from those areas to less expensive areas so that they can own a house & live reasonably well while one of them can go to school.

 

[Bumpalump]

I second what everyone above has said about fraud. My husband is a law clerk and his judge recently sentenced a woman for SS fraud. Basically, she claimed to be single when she was living with and was supported by her boyfriend. Now she is going to federal prison for several years (it was not her first conviction). You can't jeopardize your future or your family this way. Please reconsider your plan.

I am not interested at all in doing anything illegal and plan to talk to a lawyer in the very near future. I received these benefits after my first husband died but before my second husband and I were married and nowhere in the application process for those benefits were there questions about living with a boyfriend or financial support. Even then, we were living together and he helped with rent, but I never knew there was anything illegal about that. 😱 I was told by SSA that so long as I am not married, my earned income remains below a certain limit (not including child support, or spousal maintenance - if there was any of either one) and my son is under the age of 16 (even if he gets adopted) I am eligible for benefits. I am wondering if the woman in your example was receiving a different type of benefit. ? Like I said, I am not looking to do anything illegal. Thank you for the feedback.

 

[GreyBlueEyes]

I am not interested at all in doing anything illegal and plan to talk to a lawyer in the very near future. I received these benefits after my first husband died but before my second husband and I were married and nowhere in the application process for those benefits were there questions about living with a boyfriend or financial support. Even then, we were living together and he helped with rent, but I never knew there was anything illegal about that. 😱 I was told by SSA that so long as I am not married, my earned income remains below a certain limit (not including child support, or spousal maintenance - if there was any of either one) and my son is under the age of 16 (even if he gets adopted) I am eligible for benefits. I am wondering if the woman in your example was receiving a different type of benefit. ? Like I said, I am not looking to do anything illegal. Thank you for the feedback.

I'm a little confused. if you don't think there's anything fraudulent about getting a divorce JUST for the sake of receiving an SSA benefit you wouldn't get otherwise, why are you asking us if we think it's immoral? the point of that money is to help single windows who need the help because they suddenly find themselves alone as the result of tragedy. you know that's true. and you know that's not the situation you're in. even if you determine you can do it legally, will it really feel *right* to you? is that the example you want for your kids?

and i don't mean to be harsh, but if your family income is over 80k and you're struggling to make ends meet, SOMETHING about your finances needs to change.

 

[Bumpalump]

so, when you did the FAFSA, what was your expected contribution? if it was LESS than the *cost of attendance* of the school you plan to go to, you can get loans for the difference. additionally, you can get PRIVATE school loans for your entire expected contribution. in our case, our expected contribution is about $7000, but i'm getting $10,500 per year in stafford loans (the cap for a junior). if i wanted to, i could get an additional $7000 in private education loans. these usually have a slightly higher interest rate, but they still have the same deferment policy.

My EFC was $16000/yr! When I saw that, I more or less threw my hands in the air and thought it wasn't going to happen unless we sell and move. From what I knew of private loans they require immediate repayment, and there isn't room for a loan payment in our budget. Sounds like I'm mistaken there. We bought our house only a year ago with 0% down. So for us, selling isn't even realistic because we have very little, if any equity - certainly not enough to cover realtor fees. Sounds like I need to go talk to financial aid ASAP and see what they tell me. And if I have no luck there, a lawyer before I collect any SSA. Thank you 🙂

 

[GreyBlueEyes]

My EFC was $16000/yr! When I saw that, I more or less threw my hands in the air and thought it wasn't going to happen unless we sell and move. From what I knew of private loans they require immediate repayment, and there isn't room for a loan payment in our budget. Sounds like I'm mistaken there. We bought our house only a year ago with 0% down. So for us, selling isn't even realistic because we have very little, if any equity - certainly not enough to cover realtor fees. Sounds like I need to go talk to financial aid ASAP and see what they tell me. And if I have no luck there, a lawyer before I collect any SSA. Thank you 🙂

i have one private education loan in the amount of $3000. they gave me the option of immediate repayment, interest only, or total deferment. i opted for interest only, which i'll pay the interest on the loan to keep it low until i start paying back, which i'm not required to do until 6 months after i'm out of school.

so, were you planning to go to school full time while still working? or were you thinking of something else?

and i do think talking to a lawyer is a good idea 🙂

oh, and your school should be able to direct you to a private loan provider.

 

[ophelia]

I looked at SSA's website, and it says that a surviving spouse cannot get survivor benefits if you remarry before age 60; however, remarriage does NOT affect benefits paid to your child. See http://www.ssa.gov/ww&os2.htm

I'm not sure what kind of benefits you are trying to get, but if they are for your child and not yourself, then it seems like you have nothing to worry about. Of course, you should talk to a lawyer to be certain about the consequences of your action. I'm sorry if I scared you with my earlier post!

 

[Bumpalump]

I'm a little confused. if you don't think there's anything fraudulent about getting a divorce JUST for the sake of receiving an SSA benefit you wouldn't get otherwise, why are you asking us if we think it's immoral? the point of that money is to help single windows who need the help because they suddenly find themselves alone as the result of tragedy. you know that's true. and you know that's not the situation you're in. even if you determine you can do it legally, will it really feel *right* to you? is that the example you want for your kids?

and i don't mean to be harsh, but if your family income is over 80k and you're struggling to make ends meet, SOMETHING about your finances needs to change.

I'm okay with harshness - and prepared for it. I guess I know that it's not morally right and was just hoping more people would say, "hey, if you're not doing anything illegal go for it!" About our finances: Our mortgage payment is $2121.00 a month (for a $272K house) that is where we could cut. We live in a state with a higher cost of living (ranked 25th by state where the median home price is $298900) we have a $500 a month food budget (could also cut here) we pay aprox $500/mo toward my husband's student loans, $700/month in childcare ($1300/month in the summer when my schoolager needs care) we also have a car payment of $345/mo that I would love to get rid of (convincing the husband to sell his car and buy a beater like mine - not likely) Those are the more expensive things in our budget. There are no piano and dance lessons, or monthly health club memberships, exotic timeshares or ATVs/snowmobiles. We have about $150 spendable income (+$100/month to savings) I will find out more about loan options, and think about trying to convince my husband of cutting out some more things (although I get nervous that too much of this could lead to an end to our relationship)

 

[Bumpalump]

I looked at SSA's website, and it says that a surviving spouse cannot get survivor benefits if you remarry before age 60; however, remarriage does NOT affect benefits paid to your child. See http://www.ssa.gov/ww&os2.htm

I'm not sure what kind of benefits you are trying to get, but if they are for your child and not yourself, then it seems like you have nothing to worry about. Of course, you should talk to a lawyer to be certain about the consequences of your action. I'm sorry if I scared you with my earlier post!

My son currently recieves benefits from SSA as a surviving child. (These payments get deposited into an account for him until he is 18) I am interested in applying for benefits as the parent of a surviving child (different than as a "surviving spouse") which I have been informed by SSA I am entitled to so long as I am unmarried, earning less than $13K/year, and the child (my son) 16 or younger.

 

[Bumpalump]

They cut off welfare benefits to women who are living with a new boyfriend. Don't have to be married. You would be considered common-law anyway. Saying "he's just a roommate now, you should not consider his income as family income" is the fraud. And they do investigate.

SSA benefits do not follow the same application process or guidelines as local welfare programs. I am aware I could not apply for childcare assistance, food stamps or a monthly check without reporting my "boyfriend's" contributions. SSA does not require reporting this information in their application for benefits (at least not in the type of benefit I would be eligible for) Although Ophelia's comment above about the SS case her husband encountered does make me nervous <-- I don't think this was the same type of benefit I have received in the past and would be re-eligible for though.

 

[GreyBlueEyes]

I'm okay with harshness - and prepared for it. I guess I know that it's not morally right and was just hoping more people would say, "hey, if you're not doing anything illegal go for it!" About our finances: Our mortgage payment is $2121.00 a month (for a $272K house) that is where we could cut. We live in a state with a higher cost of living (ranked 25th by state where the median home price is $298900) we have a $500 a month food budget (could also cut here) we pay aprox $500/mo toward my husband's student loans, $700/month in childcare ($1300/month in the summer when my schoolager needs care) we also have a car payment of $345/mo that I would love to get rid of (convincing the husband to sell his car and buy a beater like mine - not likely) Those are the more expensive things in our budget. There are no piano and dance lessons, or monthly health club memberships, exotic timeshares or ATVs/snowmobiles. We have about $150 spendable income (+$100/month to savings) I will find out more about loan options, and think about trying to convince my husband of cutting out some more things (although I get nervous that too much of this could lead to an end to our relationship)

i agree, it's the mortgage payment that's killing you. and honestly, 25th out of 50 states is not THAT high 😉 we were stationed in upstate NY (very expensive) and bought a house, and got a 15-year mortgage since we'd only be there for 3 years, and our mortgage payment was still only $800/month. we found a decent but inexpensive area with more of a commute and bought a house with some cosmetic care needed (nothing structural, and we're good at that stuff).

it's bothering me that your husband seems so hostile to the idea of downsizing the house and his car so you can go back to school. so it's ok for you to drive a beater, but not him? if pushing him to adjust your situation to allow you to go back to school would end your relationship, that's not much of a relationship. i'm not trying to be insulting, just trying to reassure you that what you're asking for is not at all unreasonable.

what do you think about the possibility of distance education to get rid of hte childcare bill? that's a lot. i don't know where you live, so i don't know what's in your area, but i know SUNY is only $3000/semester for out-of-state which really isn't that bad. there's also the possibility of moving somewhere else entirely, with a lower cost of living.

oh, if you quit your job and go back to school, you might be able to get a forbearance on your husband's school loans. they won't do it just for you going back to school, but if you can show financial hardship they will, or maybe reduce the payment.

and personally, i don't think your food budget is too high for a family of 4. that's about what ours is, and we have a commissary (cheaper groceries, no taxes). i believe strongly in not feeding my family crap to save money. that's an area i won't compromise in.

there are definitely solutions here, but only if your husband is willing to support you in achieving your dreams.

 

[DrMom]

Maybe the best thing to do would be to put off medical school while you get your finances in better shape. Many of us started medical school in our 30s & 40s. It isn't a bad deal & you don't need significant financial stresses while you're in med school. Med school is stressful enough when you have a family.

Take a few years to cut back, pay down debts, and adjust to living on less. I think you'll be glad you did in the end.

 

[rgerwin]

Argh, I get so frustrated when people make huge decisions without proper research. It takes 2 seconds to find out that private loans can be deferred, but your willing to end your marriage, even in name only, without looking that up? Going to med school means taking out loans. Period. The gradplus loan is not need based, nor are private loans. You can get extra for childcare, and there are maximizer loans to cover the gap (i.e. expensive mortgage). Good grief.

 

[Bumpalump]

Maybe the best thing to do would be to put off medical school while you get your finances in better shape. Many of us started medical school in our 30s & 40s. It isn't a bad deal & you don't need significant financial stresses while you're in med school. Med school is stressful enough when you have a family.

Take a few years to cut back, pay down debts, and adjust to living on less. I think you'll be glad you did in the end.

Good advice. Have/will continue to consider. I still have an undergrad to get started on though

 

[GreyBlueEyes]

My son currently recieves benefits from SSA as a surviving child. (These payments get deposited into an account for him until he is 18) I am interested in applying for benefits as the parent of a surviving child (different than as a "surviving spouse") which I have been informed by SSA I am entitled to so long as I am unmarried, earning less than $13K/year, and the child (my son) 16 or younger.

so even though you got remarried, if you got divorced they'd resume paying you the benefit? that surprises me. with most "until you remarry" things, once you remarry you lose it permanently.

so you're wanting to get a divorce in name only, still live with your husband, and quit your job and go back to school? do you they actually pay enough benefits to replace your salary? also, the SSA might count any education money you receive as income.

 

[Bumpalump]

Argh, I get so frustrated when people make huge decisions without proper research. It takes 2 seconds to find out that private loans can be deferred, but your willing to end your marriage, even in name only, without looking that up? Going to med school means taking out loans. Period. The gradplus loan is not need based, nor are private loans. You can get extra for childcare, and there are maximizer loans to cover the gap (i.e. expensive mortgage). Good grief.

One huge reason I'm here 😀 for the wisdom of those that have gone before me. Thank you for the advice 🙂

 

[DrMom]

Good advice. Have/will continue to consider. I still have an undergrad to get started on though

start taking classes part time, maybe even just a class at a time. you can get there. 🙂

 

[Bumpalump]

so even though you got remarried, if you got divorced they'd resume paying you the benefit? that surprises me. with most "until you remarry" things, once you remarry you lose it permanently.

so you're wanting to get a divorce in name only, still live with your husband, and quit your job and go back to school? do you they actually pay enough benefits to replace your salary? also, the SSA might count any education money you receive as income.

The actual wording is something along the lines of ...in the case of remarriage, applicant becomes ineligible for benefits for as long as that marriage lasts... and no, it would not cover my entire salary. It'd be less than half. But with the reduction in childcare, maintaining part-time work (along with reducing our food budget and possibly selling the car) it would work out.

 

[Bumpalump]

start taking classes part time, maybe even just a class at a time. you can get there. 🙂

I feel like I barely see my family as it is 🙁 45 hours a week plus 5 hours of travel plus one or two nights a week in class and another night a week studying 👎 I'll wait until my kids are grown before I go for the fulltime work, parttime school option. Some people can do it, I'm not one of them. The time I spend with my kids comes before my qulams with SSA. (no offense and thanks for the suggestion 🙂 cute avatar, by the way!)

 

[Bumpalump]

Thank you guys very much for the insight. Consensus seems to be definitely look into more loan options, educate myself in that area. 👍

 

[Bumpalump]

frasermed, you should read the responses first! She wants to divorce in name only, and keep living with her husband in their house. Which I'm fairly sure is not what SS intended when they talk about survivor benefits for "single mothers", and am furthermore pretty sure they would have regulations against it, meaning it would be fraud.

Actually, OP, why not go call SS, anonymously, and ask? Or look up the wording of the benefits? Heck, if it is completely legal, go for it. I feel better about a dedicated future MD getting tax money than I feel about most ways that tax dollars are spent (war, pork, subsidies for corporations).

Edit: just read the above post. As suspected, it's illegal. Don't do it OP, not worth the risk. Federal prison? Damn.

I don't think my situation is necessarily the same as the one mentioned. I don't know the details of that case, but there are many different types of SS benefits, including retirement, disability, surviving spouse, surviving child, parent of a surviving child, all of which have different rules and guidelines. Calling SSA anonymously is a good suggestion...even though that will mean sitting on hold for 20 minutes, only to get transferred where I will sit on hold for another 20 minutes to get disconnected, call back, 40more minutes of hold, and then "sorry ma'am I going to refer you to our website as I don't have the information you are requesting 😛 -- been there. But worth the call if it keeps me out of prison, I suppose 🙂

 

[DrMom]

I feel like I barely see my family as it is 🙁 45 hours a week plus 5 hours of travel plus one or two nights a week in class and another night a week studying 👎 I'll wait until my kids are grown before I go for the fulltime work, parttime school option. Some people can do it, I'm not one of them. The time I spend with my kids comes before my qulams with SSA. (no offense and thanks for the suggestion 🙂 cute avatar, by the way!)

Keep in mind that med school is a huge time commitment. I wasn't able to study decently at home during the first 2 years, so that meant evenings and weekends studying at school. During the 3rd & 4th years, some rotations were just office hours, but most were 12 days straight of 12+ hrs/day. Now as a resident I work 60-80 hours a week regularly. I then have readings to do every week at home on my "own time." I regularly work nights and weekends...holidays, too.

Just be sure you know what you're wanting to get yourself into. Even if you can manage your time/studying better than I did during the first 2 years, there is no avoiding long hours away from your family.

You can make it work with a family, but it takes a lot of shuffling and give and take. I *do* manage to get notable time with my daughter because I make sure it happens, but other things like hobbies, friends, and sleep take a hit.

 

[GreyBlueEyes]

The actual wording is something along the lines of ...in the case of remarriage, applicant becomes ineligible for benefits for as long as that marriage lasts... and no, it would not cover my entire salary. It'd be less than half. But with the reduction in childcare, maintaining part-time work (along with reducing our food budget and possibly selling the car) it would work out.

i think that if you'd have to reduce your budget anyway, it's not worth it. also keep in mind that divorce would impact your life in a lot of ways, like taxes.

and you mentioned in another post not wanting to work full time while going to school part time. good call. even working part time, you wouldn't be able to go to school full time and spend a lot of time with your family. full time school requires as much work as a full time job. really, it makes the most sense for y'all to pare down your living expenses, you to quit your job, and get public/private loans to cover your entire cost of education. it should wind up sparing you a complete loss of income. you'd probably wind up getting more than the SSA benefits would be (if you're going to school full time). while it's money you'd have to pay back, at least you'd have a clean conscience 😉

your plans to talk to a lawyer and do more research into loan options are wise moves, i think.
try looking at http://www.studentloannetwork.com

 

[Bumpalump]

Keep in mind that med school is a huge time commitment. I wasn't able to study decently at home during the first 2 years, so that meant evenings and weekends studying at school. During the 3rd & 4th years, some rotations were just office hours, but most were 12 days straight of 12+ hrs/day. Now as a resident I work 60-80 hours a week regularly. I then have readings to do every week at home on my "own time." I regularly work nights and weekends...holidays, too.

Just be sure you know what you're wanting to get yourself into. Even if you can manage your time/studying better than I did during the first 2 years, there is no avoiding long hours away from your family.

You can make it work with a family, but it takes a lot of shuffling and give and take. I *do* manage to get notable time with my daughter because I make sure it happens, but other things like hobbies, friends, and sleep take a hit.

I plan to major in urban studies (If I can't get the grades and find I'm not up for the challange of the premed classes - I would presue a master's in city planning). I will have the undergrad time to see if med school is really where it's at for me. If I can handle the undergrad years and get the grades and feel I'm ready for a bigger challage, I'll make the decision then about persuing med school. I understand studying to become an MD is a huge commitment all around. I know that I need to get a degree. I have been stuck in a job I hate for 6 years and need to go back to school. I've always loved to learn, loved to study, loved school. In all honesty even the undergrad will be a huge victory for me 🙂

 

[GreyBlueEyes]

According to the Duke financial aid people I talked with yesterday, the value of a house does not raise your expected family contribution. Any assets you gained by selling it would. Any money you got from social security would. In other words, any efforts you take toward getting more income now will result in the lowering of any need-based grants you happen to get.

from what she has said, they wouldn't make any money if they sold their house right now, and might even lose money after realtor fees. what some of us have been suggesting is for them to pare down their budget (partly through getting a smaller house that would have a smaller monthly payment) so that they'd be able to live on just her husband's income. if she quit her job and went back to school full time, she should be able to get need-based financial aid to cover her school expenses.

Bumpalump: which state are you in? some states have wonderful aid programs. for instance, a GA resident gets a full tuition scholarship to any GA public school (and aid to a private one) as long as they maintain a 3.0. and that's not need-based. it's called HOPE and the state lottery pays for it. look for similar things in your state 🙂

 

[Bumpalump]

I'm a little confused. if you don't think there's anything fraudulent about getting a divorce JUST for the sake of receiving an SSA benefit you wouldn't get otherwise, why are you asking us if we think it's immoral? the point of that money is to help single windows who need the help because they suddenly find themselves alone as the result of tragedy. you know that's true. and you know that's not the situation you're in. even if you determine you can do it legally, will it really feel *right* to you? is that the example you want for your kids?

and i don't mean to be harsh, but if your family income is over 80k and you're struggling to make ends meet, SOMETHING about your finances needs to change.

I guess because fraudulent and immoral are two different things. Even if this option is legal, I am questioning (I guess it's my Catholic mother and sister more so who are questioning) the morality of the issue. My husband and I are not religious and were not married in a place of worship or with any religious affiliations. I believe in Karma, but I'm not looking to take the benefits and gamble them away, or sit on my couch all day and night. Would it have been wrong for us to be in love, be a family, live together and NOT get married just so I could receive the benefits?

 

[Bumpalump]

Congrats. On Making the decision to return to school. I do have to say that your comment doesn't sound like a moral conflict but one of confusion. Before starting schools it may be necessary to address why you would consider divorcing a man with whom you have made a family and a life. I am sure this makes him feel unimportant in your life and despensible. And take a look at why it is you don't have any close friends you can talk to about this situation in your life. You are about to embark on a life changing quest. Believe me, once you begin school you will need your husband and friends to lean on for support on those days you need to get away from the kids; you've got a paper to write or you are just plain old wiped out. These people will be needed. I am a full-time social worker and counselor, and your idea about collecting the survivor benefits inorder to return attend college sounds a bit erie. I don't suggest this at all because, one day this is a decision that will have some adverse emotional effects. I am curious as to why you wouldn't be eligible for Federal Student Financial Assistance. If you have never been to college and haven't used it. It's yours. The government will provide you with the money for school. Check it out!

Bumpalump. Be extremely careful of the decisions you make entering this phase. It is obivious that you will be a really good student and will take it serious. You are a mother and wife. This is not easy. My suggestion would be to continue working and take one or two classes at night for the next year to get back into the college groove. Be sure to hook up with a good guidance counselor to assist you in the process. The counselor will help you get on the track with planning out the courses you will need and also to help you in making the decision about which school will be appropriate for you.

I do wish you the best of luck hope that you will continue to be strong. Don't give up on your dream if this is what you want. Relax. Take Inventory. Then Go.!

Cheers.

hmmm....why no friends...let's see: mad at the world ages 14-17; pregnant and in a new school 17-18; young mother married the only boyfriend I'd ever had (not to mention physically, emotionally abusive boyfriend...cut the sob story, right?) 18-20; worked with stinky old retired army guys (not they haven't been great to know!) plus sister and mom moved 1000+ miles a way 20-present. I think college is where most people make they're lifelong friends. Thanks for the advice and luck 🙂

 

[GreyBlueEyes]

I guess because fraudulent and immoral are two different things. Even if this option is legal, I am questioning (I guess it's my Catholic mother and sister more so who are questioning) the morality of the issue. My husband and I are not religious and were not married in a place of worship or with any religious affiliations. I believe in Karma, but I'm not looking to take the benefits and gamble them away, or sit on my couch all day and night. Would it have been wrong for us to be in love, be a family, live together and NOT get married just so I could receive the benefits?

in my opinion? yes. because you wouldn't just be refraining from getting married, you'd be getting a DIVORCE. and i understand that you have good intentions for that money, but it's still not what that money was intended for by the SSA. i think it's wrong because you have other options (loans, downsizing your house, etc.). that money should be going to people who don't have other options and who need the money to survive. you can't think of it in terms of "i'm just doing this because i need the money to go to school" because the truth of hte matter is "i'm doing this so we won't have to change our lifestyle/residence for me to go to school."

that seems wrong to me. i wouldn't feel good about making that choice, if it was me. and honestly, i think if you tried to make this happen you'd find it wasn't so simple.

 

[Bumpalump]

in my opinion? yes. because you wouldn't just be refraining from getting married, you'd be getting a DIVORCE. and i understand that you have good intentions for that money, but it's still not what that money was intended for by the SSA. i think it's wrong because you have other options (loans, downsizing your house, etc.). that money should be going to people who don't have other options and who need the money to survive. you can't think of it in terms of "i'm just doing this because i need the money to go to school" because the truth of hte matter is "i'm doing this so we won't have to change our lifestyle/residence for me to go to school."

that seems wrong to me. i wouldn't feel good about making that choice, if it was me. and honestly, i think if you tried to make this happen you'd find it wasn't so simple.

ooo. that one will require some serious personal reflection. 😳 much truth there.

 

[spicedmanna]

I guess because fraudulent and immoral are two different things. Even if this option is legal, I am questioning (I guess it's my Catholic mother and sister more so who are questioning) the morality of the issue. My husband and I are not religious and were not married in a place of worship or with any religious affiliations. I believe in Karma, but I'm not looking to take the benefits and gamble them away, or sit on my couch all day and night. Would it have been wrong for us to be in love, be a family, live together and NOT get married just so I could receive the benefits?

Yes, I think so. I don't like to apply morality rules to a given situation, per se, but I do use integrity as my guide. What I mean by that is, I try to ask myself if there is anything I would withhold from other people, or myself, in a particular action or interaction. If so, I am most certainly compromising my integrity, or wholeness, by taking that specific action or making that interaction. There is no "moral" price for withholding, as such, but there is certainly a psychosomatic one. In the words of Freud, "Secrets make you sick." Taking an action that disrupts your inherent wholeness will certainly have an impact on your wellbeing and the wellbeing of those around you. First and foremost, you must decide if getting a divorce and taking advantage of the SSA benefits in a manner for which it was not designed, for your own personal profit, falls into that category. For me it would.

Secondly, you are in love, and you made a huge commitment to spend the rest of your life together with your husband in marriage. You demonstrated this to the man you love and the rest of the world by getting married. Now you are willing to casually drop that commitment for some money? How much is your family worth to you? Sounds like you have found a price for which you are willing to change your lifelong commitment to your husband and family. To me that doesn't say very much about the quality of your relationships. Sure, sure, you can most certainly have a family out of marriage; I have no moral judgments about that. The thing that rubs me the wrong way is the manner in which you are choosing to change the nature of your relationship together. In other words, you would both stay married, if not for the potential financial gain. I don't think that's a good enough reason, personally. That's a poor reason. On the other hand, if your marriage is in fact that trivial, then perhaps you both would benefit from some relationship counseling, because this might become a much larger problem in the future.

Why would you consider this option, when there are other viable ones available? Sure, some would be potentially harder and less lucrative, but a marriage is invaluable, in my opinion. If it were me, I would do everything to keep my marriage together as long as it didn't compromise my integrity or my dreams. Please consider the other options, get some relationship counseling, and if you both decide that a marriage isn't what you want, get a divorce because of that, rather than for some pocket money.

Lastly, what do your husband and your children think of your plan? Don't they have some input in the matter? I would think so.

That's my dime store opinion.

Good luck.

 

[Bumpalump]

Yes, I think so. I don't like to apply morality rules to a given situation, per se, but I do use integrity as my guide. What I mean by that is, I try to ask myself if there is anything I would withhold from other people, or myself, in a particular action or interaction. If so, I am most certainly compromising my integrity, or wholeness, by taking that specific action or making that interaction. There is no "moral" price for withholding, as such, but there is certainly a psychosomatic one. In the words of Freud, "Secrets make you sick." Taking an action that disrupts your inherent wholeness will certainly have an impact on your wellbeing and the wellbeing of those around you. First and foremost, you must decide if getting a divorce and taking advantage of the SSA benefits in a manner for which it was not designed, for your own personal profit, falls into that category. For me it would.

Secondly, you are in love, and you made a huge commitment to spend the rest of your life together with your husband in marriage. You demonstrated this to the man you love and the rest of the world by getting married. Now you are willing to casually drop that commitment for some money? How much is your family worth to you? Sounds like you have found a price for which you are willing to change your lifelong commitment to your husband and family. To me that doesn't say very much about the quality of your relationships. Sure, sure, you can most certainly have a family out of marriage; I have no moral judgments about that. The thing that rubs me the wrong way is the manner in which you are choosing to change the nature of your relationship together. In other words, you would both stay married, if not for the potential financial gain. I don't think that's a good enough reason, personally. That's a poor reason. On the other hand, if your marriage is in fact that trivial, then perhaps you both would benefit from some relationship counseling, because this might become a much larger problem in the future.

Why would you consider this option, when there are other viable ones available? Sure, some would be potentially harder and less lucrative, but a marriage is invaluable, in my opinion. If it were me, I would do everything to keep my marriage together as long as it didn't compromise my integrity or my dreams. Please consider the other options, get some relationship counseling, and if you both decide that a marriage isn't what you want, get a divorce because of that, rather than for some pocket money.

Lastly, what do your husband and your children think of your plan? Don't they have some input in the matter? I would think so.

That's my dime store opinion.

Good luck.

My husband is supportive of the option. We both feel like this is the only option for me to go to school fulltime and to keep the house, but I have discovered this most likely not the case from posting here. In our shared opinion our relationship is more than a legal bond. The legal part of our wedding was not significant at all. I don't even think we had good reason to legally get married! To me marriage is a personal commitment to each other. More than any legal document could ever signify. We are not breaking our commitment to each other or our family by divorcing in the legal sense of the term. I am a proponent of gay marriage. Marriage to me is a civil union separate from anything religious or moral. We were married in spirit and by law. By ending the legal part of the marriage I am giving up all that comes with it...as someone mentioned earlier, next-of-kin status in medical situations, tax status, not to mention social security benefits as his surviving spouse if he were to unexpectedly die. My moral dilemma is not with the divorce issue as it is with the first part you mentioned about taking something from someone else. But if I collect the SSA benefits the gov't has deemed me eligible for, in my knowledge that doesn't take benefits away from anyone else out there.

 

[spicedmanna]

My husband is supportive of the option. We both feel like this is the only option for me to go to school fulltime and to keep the house, but I have discovered this most likely not the case from posting here.

Good, because there are usually other options. Always double check when you find yourself waxing, "it's the only way..." Seems like you are doing that, so I applaud your choice to seek help. 😉

I still think that some counseling would help you and your family resolve this issue, if you are interested. It's painless and will help reveal the areas that you guys have glitches around. For instance, there is a glitch about keeping the current house, etc... You often need space to solve a problem and counseling helps open up that space.

In our shared opinion our relationship is more than a legal bond. The legal part of our wedding was not significant at all. I don't even think we had good reason to legally get married! To me marriage is a personal commitment to each other. More than any legal document could ever signify. We are not breaking our commitment to each other or our family by divorcing in the legal sense of the term. I am a proponent of gay marriage. Marriage to me is a civil union separate from anything religious or moral. We were married in spirit and by law. By ending the legal part of the marriage I am giving up all that comes with it...as someone mentioned earlier, next-of-kin status in medical situations, tax status, not to mention social security benefits as his surviving spouse if he were to unexpectedly die.

I'm not a moralist when it comes to the idea of marriage. To each their own. I happen to believe that marriage isn't something to be entered into lightly and that it is more than just a legal phenomenon. I see people trivializing marriage all around me, and it sometimes bothers me; so my apologies if I waxed that direction with you. To me, it is a significant heartfelt, energetic commitment. Even though there are legal, and sometimes religious components, or connotations, to marriage, I prefer to see marriage as the complete consummation of my commitments to my partner. It is the manifestation of my lifetime, heartfelt vows to the third person in the relationship, so the speak: the relationship itself. It's the container by which we grow together. In addition, if my partner and I drift from our commitments, and from each other, we have a strong base to come back to. It's certainly convenient that society recognizes this type of union, but it wouldn't be the sole reason that I would enter into it with my partner (hypothetically speaking, since I am not married). If you and your partner have another type of container to hold your relationship, a container that serves as your basic foundation, then that would be just as good, in my opinion. Just make sure you have a solid one, for the sake of everyone involved. 🙂

My moral dilemma is not with the divorce issue as it is with the first part you mentioned about taking something from someone else. But if I collect the SSA benefits the gov't has deemed me eligible for, in my knowledge that doesn't take benefits away from anyone else out there.

Using a reference outside of yourself to judge an action is probably not the best way to determine whether it is right for you. I can get away with lots of things if I wanted to, but that doesn't make them right. The benefits weren't designed for the purpose you are intending to use them for. You can make all kinds of justifications, but at the end, you wouldn't walk up to the secretary of the SSA and tell him, or her, your exact intentions. That alone says it all.