more discouraging comments about general surgery

[EclecticMind]

I have been seriously wanting to do surgery for some time now. My desire to do surgery started about a year before I entered medical school. I had met a trauma surgeon who knew that I was wanting to become a doctor, so he let me tag along with him when he took in-house trauma call. I worked on an ambulance for about 4 years during college, and I also really enjoyed the "trauma calls." So needless to say, getting to hang out with a trauma surgeon and see what a trauma surgeon does just really struck a cord with me, and so I have been wanting to one day become a trauma surgeon myself. I am now about to begin my 3rd year.

The problem that I have is that it seems everywhere I go someone is giving me a reason why not to go into general surgery, which obviously would be a significant component of my career duties even if I did become a trained trauma surgeon.

Some examples of what I'm talking about:

The other day I was talking to a guy in the class above me that had just finished his surgery rotation. I mentioned wanting to do general surgery and he very quickly expressed his opinion that I would be a fool to do general surgery. He said "who wants to work on peoples dinguses all day?"
Coincidentally, this guy is dead-set on going into neurosurgery. He strongly suggested that if surgery is what I want to do, I should go into ortho or plastics.

Speaking of plastics and for another example, I was talking with a plastic surgeon not very long ago and we talked about his journey to becoming a plastic surgeon. He told me that he had initially wanted to do general surgery, but after doing GS residency for 2-3 yrs, he decided that he didn't particularly like general surgery and so he transferred into a plastics program. I remember he made the comment "general surgery deals with a lot of 'smelly' things."

So, what's really the deal with general surgery... is it really that "smelly" and is it "people's dinguses all day?" If it is, then unfortunately I have wrong preconceptions about the field, but I hope not. I really want to do surgery, and general surgery has just always seemed like the route I should take. I would really appreciate hearing your own opinions, likes, dislikes, etc. about going into general surgery.

And P.S. - I know that the obvious thing for most of you to say would be for me to just wait until I do my surgery rotation in 3rd year and then decide. Well, I understand your point, but unfortunately I am one of those kind of people that has to have a specific goal they're working towards. I just do so much better when I know what I'm going to do with my life (or at least feel like I do).

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[kinetic]

Wait'll you go on interviews and tell people you want to go into Gen Surg for trauma. Basically, it goes like this:

You: ...so I love trauma, both in the acuity of the situation and ...
Trauma Surgeon: You know, most trauma is non-operative nowadays.
You: ...and ...w-what?
TS: Yeah, I think I've operated once, twice MAYBE, in the past year.
You: *blink blink*
You: So ...uh ...what do you do all day?
TS: We babysit those (bleep) (bleep) (bleep)-ing Ortho patients!!! (Bleep)!!
TS: *flashes middle finger defiantly at you*
You: Oh. How's that?
TS: Oh, not so bad.

 

[kinetic]

(interview, cont'd)

You: So how much penetrating trauma do you see here?
TS: Pen-e-tray-ting what?
You: You know ....gunshots ....
TS: OH! OH! (laughs, a little too nervously for your taste) No, we just have little old ladies who fall here. You're talking about (waves vaguely towards the window) somewhere else ...Beirut, MAYBE ...but not here.
You: So you mostly do MVAs?
TS: Yeah. And falls. Don't forget falls!
You: (BLEEP BLEEEP BLEEEEEEP)!!!!

 

[Tenesma]

gen surgery is great... obviously that neurosurg guy had a bad experience....

but like kinetic points out, if trauma surg is really what you want to do (and i think you mean the operative part of it), then you need to go to a center where there is a lot of penetrating trauma (knife and gun club) vs. blunt trauma (MVA)... even though most people in surgical critical care/trauma (at my institution) say that blunt trauma is harder to manage. (sicker patients, etc.)

 

[Winged Scapula]

All fields of surgery have their unpleasant procedures/patients. And while yes, there are a lot of unpleasant smells in General Surgery, even Plastics has some foul ones to contend with (see earlier thread about Panniculectomy consults or decubitis ulcers). You do get used to the most common smells, but every now and again something will hit you the wrong way - either because its particularly foul or because you're just not feeling right that day.

It is very popular to discourage people from going into Surgery - either those who do cannot possibly understand the lure (and frankly a lot of students have unpleasant surgical rotations during medical school) or are "testing" you to see how serious you are (this usually comes from attendings or residents).

As for spending the day "looking at people's bums", frankly as a general surgery resident I do that pretty infrequently in the grand scheme of things. Sure, we do a few months of Colorectal Surgery but not all of those procedures involve the anus, and some Peds Surgery patients have anorectal malformations or other Colorectal issues that require paying attention to that area. But a typical General Surgeon is not doing all "bum work" - he might do a sigmoid resection, a perineal abscess or fistula but most major Colorectal stuff is reserved for those who specialize. IMHO it is pretty infrequent that General Surgeons here are doing that kind of thing - its mostly hernias, gallbladders, breast cases, skin and soft tissue, thyroids, etc. Others with some additional training may do Surg Onc stuff, vascular, etc. in addition to general surgery.

I LOL reading Kinetic's posts - but even more telling, is his statement about the non-operative management of trauma and the difficulty in dealing with blunt trauma. We see almost exclusively blunt here and their care, hospital course and eventual outcomes are much more troublesome than the penetratings. Don't go into trauma thinking you will be operating all the time unless you are really at a knife and gun club - most of the time you'll be rounding on darn Neurosurg head injuries and ortho patients in the SICU and doing general cases.

 

[EclecticMind]

I don't really know very much about ortho, and it's becoming apparent to me that I don't know as much about GS as I thought I did.

How do the two fields compare?

Personally, I think ortho would get old to me... and I also think I would miss having a more extensive knowledge of organ system-related disease. But keep in mind that I am nearly completely ignorant to that whole field.

So generally speaking, why do general surgeons become general surgeons and not orthopods... and likewise, why to orthopods choose ortho and not general surgery.

 

[Vukken99]

I never liked ortho that much....
But some swear by it.....you make a lots of money that's for sure.

But, general is much harder residency overall..Maybe harder than most other subspecialties in surgery.

And, General Surgery deals with many critical issues.....

Like there is nothing more exciting than putting two chest tubes really fast like in 3 minutes and see the patient get better....

Or doing a large emergency laparotomy of someone critical...but obviously the causes of distended abdomen surgery in a hurry can't be very pleasant since the odor is very offensive... But,, the real humanity grows in you...when you deal with all these things..

One night On call, I had to desimpact manually like three patients and the smell get stucked in your clothing but hey...patients are doing better.....that is the satisfaction of not being afraid to get their hands dirty.

I guess there were few surgeons who have been my role models and non surgeons as well. An ER physician who i have seen doing a resuscitation better than any other trauma surgeon.

A Neurosurgeon who used to make magical procedures, a CT surgeon who used to instill resposibility and respect for the field....

 

[FliteSurgn]

Through 5 years of residency, I never had to disimpact anyone. You really don't deal with that many smelly things on a day to day basis as a general surgeon. The worst smells that I can remember were all on the vascular surgery service...lack of blood flow+diabetes+delay in seeking care=big stinking problems. 😱

 

[DrQuinn]

No matter WHAT specialty you go into, there will always be negatives about it. And there will always be people out there who will point out those negatives.

Psychiatry = you have to deal with end stage fibromyalgia / generalized anxiety disorder <shiver>
Family Practice = read above
Surgery = hemorrhoids
ER = drug seekers and get to see the patient's that other physicians fire from their practice for being annoying
IM = get to mentally masturbate over sodium all day and chase K+
Pathology = get to smell like formaldehyde
Derm = get to squeeze people's zits and look at old ladies necks for cancer
Radiology = never get a tan and learn to hate natural light

etc etc.

Keep an open mind! WHen you get into your third year, try to learn to like each rotation. You'll have a good idea at the end of the month if you really liked a certain specialty.

Q, DO

 

[Vukken99]

When I was a junior resident, I was mandated by my residency to show up for some educational meeting at the home base hospital....

then When I was about to leave one of the Attending was asking me if I could desimpact one of his patients, then I said to him I don;t I can't do it but
I can have an intern to desimpact your patient. Then he got so pissed off with me "he said Oh my goodness residents can't be asked to do anything anymore"

Then he ran to bed side at ICU and he closed the curtains very abruptly and he started to desimpact his patient himself...

He looked so pissed like a little kid who does not get his chocolate on time...
Gee I was laughing even though I wanted to help...

There is nothing wrong in getting yourself full...with work..

 

[Tenesma]

vukken - is english your first language? just curious...

 

[Fermata]

vukken - is english your first language? just curious...

What do you think?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Hmmm...I've disimpacted only a couple of patients (usually MRCP kids) during my residency. Not something we really have to do very often.

I would disagree that a General Surgery residency is much more difficult than an Ortho one. Perhaps an Ortho residency at a hospital that's not a trauma center might be easier on the residents, but frankly our Ortho residents here work like dogs (as we see a lot of blunt trauma with ortho injuries).

It would behoove you to learn more about both fields - Ortho might get old, but there are plenty of opportunities to subspecialize and you can see a variety of procedures...it isn't all old ladies with NOF fractures.

 

[Vukken99]

yeah

I am an immigrant...
I have been in America for about 17 good years....

Sorry for some foreign sounding sentences....but what can I do...better than
being lazy and resisting to learn like many out there in America.

I remember when I was taking my Anatomy course during my first year in DO school ( see I mention DO school not MD school). My friends used to bust my chops saying "what did you say..can you say that again?"

I got so pissed once that I told my group member.
"guess what you guys can go find another group if you want better english or better pronounced English, I can dissect myself the entire body..."
hahahaha...

I really like the dynamic nature of American Medicine....

But I am fluent in four languages maybe that is why dominance of one particular language becomes not a key issue for me.....

Hey guys Learn Spanish well...
I am working in Arizona now and you are going to deal with tons of Spanish speaking patients now and the near future....

Looking at this perspective, I think it is not bad to study medicine in a spanish speaking country like mexico or Spain....

This does not mean I am sympathetic for those patients who refuse to learn english...what a shame....how can you live in American and not learn english...

 

[yrome]

Vukken

Your assinine comments would grow old very quickly in a serious general surgery program. I suggest you choose a field more tolerant of *****s.

 

[Vukken99]

watch your own tail....

I think your should worry about your own career and training.

Because I am doing well....with good outlook ahead.

NO need to burn your neurons really...

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

So, what's really the deal with general surgery... is it really that "smelly" and is it "people's dinguses all day?" ..... I would really appreciate hearing your own opinions, likes, dislikes, etc. about going into general surgery.

Yes, it is rather smelly and you will see many anuses (or is the pleural "ani"...)

However, the smell and anatomic bums are not what offends- dealing with dinguses (the whole human variety) tends to be more of a problem!

The pros:

Seeing the anatomy in the OR, being able to take someone's horrible disease away from them- those are the best times.

Some people like the fast-pace, no-nonsense environment as well.

Despite the common myths, you use your brain quite a bit in post-op management, critical care, etc.



The cons/ things to think about:

The "rush" and "fun" of trauma bay and the OR are only a small part of what you do. I realize that more of the BS (paperwork, social work, etc) seems more prominent to me since I am a lower level resident but it still can be quite a bit of your day even after residency. It would be nice if we could go to work, see our patients, go to the OR, do post-op care, and leave but that's not how it works!

There are a ton of lawsuits, and in surgery, when things turn south they often go desparately bad. You will practice with the lawyers in the back of your mind at all times, which perhaps has been one of the most disillusioning things to me about life after medical school.

You will get stuck- multiple times- and there is a hell of a lot of Hep C out there.

Are you naturally talented technically? No, this isn't a must, but it makes your life much easier.

You may receive much more criticism during residency than positive reinforcement- how does that affect you? Are you okay being around yelling, high-stressed personalities?

Does surgery bring you more happiness that anything else in your life? Perhaps that's the best thing you could ask yourself as you do your rotation. Yes, there is an 80-hour rule out there but there is still a lot of q3, even q2 call that is going on as we speak. Tons of 2AM phone calls, going back in during the middle of the night (if you are on home call), etc. Bear in mind that during intern year you may work this hard and rarely see the OR.

I realize that family is important to many; I'm single and am not particularly interested in having kids but sometimes it would be nice to have a semblance of normalcy in my life- I'd even be happy just to be able to go out for a 6PM dinner and drink once a week. Maybe real-life practice can be tailored somewhat, but in a recent survery of practicing surgeons (one of my attendings recently cited it) more that >90% go back into the hospital in the middle of the night once a week or more.

You may come to find that surgery/ being a surgeon is still an absolute passion, above everything else. If that's true than that's a good thing- it will help you put things in stride as you encounter the bad things during residency. I have a few fellow residents who love the OR so much that the bad things seem to roll off of them.

Student rotations vary drastically- the 3rd & 4th year student rotations are pretty education-focused here; however, where I did medical school students were used for scut and pizza delivery men/women. Honestly, neither experience truly reflects what my life as a resident is like. So whether you love or hate your surgery rotation, I'd try to do another one early in 4th year to get more perspective.

good luck

 

[njbmd]

Hi there,

Cons:

• Long Hours
• Rude Attendings
• Prima Donna Attendings
• Rude residents

Pros:

• Being able to operate and fix things
• Procedures
• Being able to make a diagnosis with little information

You need to have a thick skin and you need to love what you do. Every specialty has elements that make your life miserable but in the long run, I would rather be operating than anything else. It doesn't matter how cushy your residency is, if you hate your work, you are going to have more time to be miserable in the less busy residencies and specialties.

Either you are a surgeon or you are not. If you ARE a surgeon, you probably didn't fine Internal Medicine that much fun either. Ortho, neuro, uro, and plastics all involve surgery. If you don't like being a surgeon, steer clear of all the surgical specialties too.

 

[vanelo]

vukken - is english your first language? just curious...

What difference does it make?

Vukken, I think you are in the wrong forum, you really belong to the studentgrammar.net

 

[Vukken99]

 

[Vukken99]

 

[vanelo]

Thanks....

 

[fourthyear]

As usual, foxxy is right on - agree with all of that.

Some things that make being a surgery resident unique and usually fun:
- When no one else has a clue how to save a sick patient, or fix some strange situation, they call you...and sometimes you can do something for them that really helps
- You're not afraid to put a needle or a knife into anything, sometimes messy sometimes bloody, but you just put something sharp in it and start fixing it
- Being able to see internal parts of the body no other doctor gets to see
- Always being so damn busy you don't have time to get bored or even realize how long you've been at work - gimme 14 hour days in a surgery residency over 8 in tourtously boring IM residency b/c it'll seem a lot quicker
- It seems you take more responsibility for your patients than most other doctors who don't do such invasive things to their patients or who don't have the opportunity to do so - we all find ourselves staying a little late to check that draining wound once more, sitting in the CT scanner with a patient to find out the results immediatley so we can decide what to do about what it shows, calling families on the phone to explain the procedures before and after they happen, ect. Most non-surgeons don't realize how much surgeons come to truly care about their pateints and their outcome - even if it is sometimes more due to the pride of doing their job well, they really do care and put the time and effort in to do the right thing.

 

[Mirror Form]

One thing I noticed during my third year, which I just finished, is that general surgeons are probably on average the most bitter and unhappy doctors in the hospital (other then OB-gyn of course, but that goes w/o saying). Now there are tons of very happy and awesome general surgeons. But when it came time for me to decide on a specialty, it just doesn't make sense to basically sacrifice the remainder of my youth (miserable residency) to go into a field where so many people seem unhappy.

 

[Vukken99]

I think General Surgeons are working harder and getting paid less...

Worse yet, if you start as a young surgeon you know you can't pay your own malpractice insurance which is like close to 60K so you are forced to get a job.

Now, some of my friends who are just graduating were contemplating going to some unknown town smaller than a pepper in exchange for a nice salary...

But, I could see that if you are working in a place you really don't wish to live then that could be a big problem even if you are making good money....
They can't see that when I explain about that fact.

They think they will be graduated and they will get a huge salary in some boony town...and be happy like a king...that is not really true at all.

 

[EclecticMind]

thank you Foxxy Cleopatra; that was a very good post and I appreciate you taking the time to give me that kind of perspective.

and I also really do appreciate everyone else's contribution on this thread. This has really been a major issue with me for a long time now... so much so that I sometimes get so wrapped up in trying to figure out what it is I want to do, I lose sight of the immediate things that much be must be dealt with first. It's just that I'm so desperate to have that drive that I had in college. You see, I knew when I started college that I wanted to become a doctor, and so everything I did in college was catered to my ultimate dream. I probably would have never made it had I not had that level of passion throughout. Now that I'm in medical school, I'm now confronted with a dilemma that I just never really expected... and that is deciding what "kind" of doctor do I want to be.

I have concluded in my heart that I definitely want to do something surgical, and hopefully very soon I can achieve that peace-of-mind that I'm yearning for by deciding what kind of surgeon do I want to be.

So needless to say, your input is sincerely appreciated. Thank you!

 

[fourthyear]

You sound very motivated and goal-oriented. That's a very good thing for any doctor, but I worry a bit that you are too focused on carreer. No matter what kind of specialty you practice, you need other hobbies, family, friends, things in your life that make you happy besides work. Surgery residency is tough, but those of us who try to remain happy, non-bitter people have other things in life we appreciate as well. You need to be making the time now in med school to have other things to derive happiness from besides just meeting your acedemic and carreer goals.

 

[cremaster2007]

I was just wondering if anybody in here could give me a list of good places to do surgery/ER rotations during 3rd and 4th year. I'm a 2nd year at DMU and my options for 3rd year rotations are a little bit limited, but 4th year I get to choose a lot of my own sites. You guys seem to be very informative so any kind of info you could give me would be appreciated.

 

[Vukken99]

I rotated in Lutheran Medical Center in NYC

on going very busy OR like 13 full schedule.
Level I trauma so you do trauma too.
Lectures around 6 AM by attendings
7am morning report with critique by 7 attendings including 2 ct surgeons and trauma surgeons...
afternoon lectures by senior surgery resident...
Patient load about 72 in average so you get to do rounds on them with the team.

I got very involved here and they love students there...

Plus they have AOA accredited residency in general surgery

 

[FliteSurgn]

One thing I noticed during my third year, which I just finished, is that general surgeons are probably on average the most bitter and unhappy doctors in the hospital (other then OB-gyn of course, but that goes w/o saying). Now there are tons of very happy and awesome general surgeons. But when it came time for me to decide on a specialty, it just doesn't make sense to basically sacrifice the remainder of my youth (miserable residency) to go into a field where so many people seem unhappy.

This may be true at your medical school, but it would be foolish for you to think that all surgeons are unhappy. All of the staff surgeons that I worked with during my residency were VERY happy. The fact is that we love what we do and that really is the key to happiness. For the same reason, residency was great. Look around because not all surgical residencies are equal...some produce bitter residents that become bitter attendings...others allow the residents to blossom into surgeons that really enjoy their career choice.

 

[njbmd]

I was just wondering if anybody in here could give me a list of good places to do surgery/ER rotations during 3rd and 4th year. I'm a 2nd year at DMU and my options for 3rd year rotations are a little bit limited, but 4th year I get to choose a lot of my own sites. You guys seem to be very informative so any kind of info you could give me would be appreciated.

Hi there,

You can't beat Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN as a site for doing a surgical elective fourth year. Mayo's whole approach to surgical education is awesome. It is not so much that you need to be immersed in Trauma but you need to know what good learning and good surgical assessment skills are all about. Any rotation in Mayo's surgical department will get you up to speed on both of these things. You can take learning and assessment skills from Mayo and apply them to any residency in the country and do well. (It's also a great place to do a General Surgical residency too!)

The other great thing about Mayo is that they force you to apply for a Visiting clerkship in the same manner that you would apply for residency (without the ERAS). By applying for my visiting clerkship at Mayo, I had all of my residency information ready to be loaded into ERAS very early. The Mayo application process makes the ERAS process very simple and that can't hurt you either. 😀

Other surgery programs that I liked were Henry Ford in Detroit and Emory. Both of these programs will provide you with solid experiences.

Enjoy fourth year!
njbmd 🙂

 

[cremaster2007]

Thanks for the input guys. I had heard good things about each program you mentioned, I just wanted to see what some non-DMU students had to say!!!

 

[RedBlanket]

I would recommend doing a Trauma surgery service at either Parkland (UTSW-Dallas) or LA County (USC). Other great programs trauma and all-around programs: Colorado, Emory. Some of the best trauma systems in this country, if you have any interest in trauma. Doing a sub-I at Mayo might be a good plan if you don't like trauma. I felt like Mayo was so different from the other academic centers I applied to that I couldn't adequately or fairly judge it. My uncertainty led me to rank it low, but if I'd done a sub-I there I might have gotten over the "community program" feel of the place and figured out why some people love it so much.

I'd recommend doing a "get your hands dirty" sub-I like the above and then, if you're interested in academics, doing one at a "reach" big name program: MGH/Brigham, U Mich, Duke, U Chicago, UCSF, UW, Hopkins, etc.

Gives you a feel for what's out there and what you like. $0.02 (probably inflated value)

 

[godfather]

Just a little more advice. If your afraid to get your hands dirty than being a doctor might not be for you. ie you will have to deal with smells and secretions because when anything is dying or sick its entropy increases and it can't take care of itself. When your dealing with patients your not seeing them at their best. Make Cindy Crawford sick for 1 month and i gurantee you not one guy in america will want to be with her outside of her family and her DOCTOR. This is true of whether your taking care of mental patients ( physciatrists deal with many patients who can't care for themselves), or do what i do which is anesthesia ( i have to get rid of secretions out of patients mouths everyday). My advice to you is to really research everything before you choose. A medical school rotation or even what a junior resident does is not always indicative of what life will be like when your out in real practice. Surgery is one of those fields that really needs to revamp how they train their residents. Currently it's a 5 year residency ( which in my opinion they should truncate to 4years) with very little intraop training in the first 3 years. what students don't realize is that when they're not in the or holding retractors, it's usally a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd year holding those retractors, which in my opinion is simply scut. What they should do is make the first year a mandatory IM year so that you learn the complex medical management, and make the next 3 years surgical with more than holding retractors and the 5 th year an optional year to further specialize. As it stands right now the surgical residents do more scut than any other resident and this is unfortunate since residency should be educational, and not cheap labor.Two other things to really consider before picking surgery is 1 the job market(i think its picked up but the best people to ask are the graduating residents, ie what is your contract like, salary , vacation etc). My feeling right now is that surgeons are terribly undercompensated right now for the time (5 years) they sacrafice. Also understand that the invasive fields ( of which surgery is obviously one of) will always lose territory to the less invasive (ie medical management, interventiolist, remember the cardiologist has almost made the ct surgeon extinct), and thus have to find new turf ( ie pioneering new procedures, etc) to stay afloat. Having said this, whatever you go into Know everthing , including the politics, territorial fights, innovations, and job market before choosing. Too often i have seen med students pick a field that they had a preconceived notion about and then find out that, it isn't so idealized.

 

[sunshinejoy]

My dad is a general and vascular surgeon. He was sitting here by the
computer so I read him the original post. He said he rarely deals with
smelly things (that's colo-rectal surgeons generally) and he loves the
variety. He almost went into cardiac surgery but felt like most of that
is repetitive....bypass assembly line....but with general, variety is the
spice of life. You have to be quick though and ready for anything. I
also know there is going to be a huge shortage of general surgeons in the
future and a glut of plastic surgeons has already begun. So, if you want
to shoot for general surgery then do so. Shoot for the moon and then
at least you will land among the stars.... 🙂 Anyway, the only down side
of general surgery is they are poorly paid for what they do and lots of
people do not think of general surgeons as "specialists"....like they are just
GPs or something. Not hardly but that's ignorance for you. That part is bad and really needs to improve to encourage people to choose this field. When you have a trauma you will want a general surgeon to fix you up and won't be worrying about wrinkles and breast implants! 🙂 The world needs more good general surgeons!!!

 

[Earth]

wow, that was very encouraging! Ask your dad about how he feels regarding his surgical techs, how much responsibility does he delegate to them and what fosters a good trust/bond with him?

 

[DoctorDoom]

My advice to you is to really research everything before you choose. A medical school rotation or even what a junior resident does is not always indicative of what life will be like when your out in real practice. Surgery is one of those fields that really needs to revamp how they train their residents. Currently it's a 5 year residency ( which in my opinion they should truncate to 4years) with very little intraop training in the first 3 years. what students don't realize is that when they're not in the or holding retractors, it's usally a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd year holding those retractors, which in my opinion is simply scut. What they should do is make the first year a mandatory IM year so that you learn the complex medical management, and make the next 3 years surgical with more than holding retractors and the 5 th year an optional year to further specialize. As it stands right now the surgical residents do more scut than any other resident and this is unfortunate since residency should be educational, and not cheap labor.Two other things to really consider before picking surgery is 1 the job market(i think its picked up but the best people to ask are the graduating residents, ie what is your contract like, salary , vacation etc).

While your general points are valid you don't seem to know very much about surgery residency at all.

 

[supercut]

It's very popular for nonsurgeons to bash surgeons. It's also very popular for non general surgeons to bash general surgery. Usually by referring to ass procedures.

As previous posters have stated, there are bad things in every rotation. Smelly butt cases are only a very small part of general surgery. Pts who behave like dinguses are more common. But still, there are many pts who are very pleasant to work with. The pt population where I went to med school had a high percentage of the ignorant dingus variety. In my residency, pts are more educated/sophisticated.

To be a trauma surgeon, you have to also like ICU care, because trauma surgeons typically also run the trauma ICU. And there is not trauma surgery fellowship per se, most enter the field by doing a critical care fellowship.

I went to med school at a knife and gun club kind of place, and while there was mostly blunt trauma, there was also enough penetrating or operative blunt trauma to keep everyone happy. Trauma is also evolving to include general surgery emergencies (bowel obstrctions, appys, etc)

At any rate, I wouldn't pay any attention to people who try to talk you out of any field. You should talk to as many surgeons as possible. Find out what they like , what they don't like. Talk to both residents and attendings...you need to figure out if residency is worth it, and what the attendings think now that they've finished all the training. You have to decide if you think the advantages outweigh the drawbacks for you.

I had an attending tell me she didn't think I belonged in surgery, and strongly advised me to choose another field. I ignored her, and now I'm very happy to be in surgery. Yep, some days really suck, but that's more because I"m a resident.

Keep an open mind and enjoy your rotations.

 

[redstorm]

listen eclectic,, Im not a surgeon... I just play one on tv.. No im an anesthesiologist and i work with all these jokers on a daily basis.......


first off never ask another surgical specialist if you should do another specialty because they will more often than not bad mouth it... Thats the nature of surgeons...

Trauma is not as attractive as it seems.. I did a year of surgery... The atmosphere is nasty, the hours are brutal, patients spit and curse at you, its always emergent.. the workups always involve the ct scan and multiple other imaging modalities this can take forever,, the amount of litigation is prob higher then average.. ITs just not as cushy as some of the other surgical specialties.... At the age of 45 wouldnt you just like to come in do your elective cases and go home.. You will enjoy trauma as a student because you know it will be over in a month.. But can you imagine that being your life... NO way..

 

[Leukocyte]

Dear OP:

You will always get a biased answer. People who like GS (or pretend to like GS) will minimize the "smelly/dirty" aspect of GS and paint you a beautiful picture that might not truly reflect the reality of everyday GS. They, IMHO, are as misleading as those who try to "talk you out" of GS.

Keep in mind that you are asking your question to GS residents, who for the most part, do not mind or "accepted" the "smelly/dirty" aspect of surgery. I will not attempt to give you my opinion on this issue because it is biased as well.

People have different tolerance levels, and the way you react when some old nursing home dude poops on you can be very different from your father's reaction in the same situation. So, yes, even your father can give you a biased/inaccurate answer.

IMHO, I reccomend that you experience the GS enviroment YOURSELF first-hand as a MS3 or MS4. Go and find your own tolerance level when dealing with patients and their secreations.

Good Luck.

 

[redstorm]

also you must realize that general surgery breeds the "must suffer" mentality.. They are not happy unless they are overworked and underpaid and dealt **** all day.. Thats the must suffer mentality.... so if you have that you will be great.. BUt if you have the attitude that you want to go home and enjoy what life has to offer you. whether it be spend time with your kids, loved ones, sit on the porch and drink beer while watching nature at work, it wont be for you.. you will be miserable because the work is really never done... its just put off for tomorrow morning.. something is always pending...

 

[Vukken99]

there is some life after general surgery....

all depends on the deal you make with the group..
Some gen surgery jobs gives you q5 call schedule not bad....

But the most frustrating thing is being callled in 3am ...
for some SBO case.....and you have some weak resident at the other end...

Then it kills you big time.....since you dont' trust the resident..pretty much the attending has to get up and go see if this patient needs emergency sbo resection.....

Oh well....
I do emphasize endoscopies must be emphasized during training.....
be well versed in GI........

 

[EclecticMind]

wow... I've been off of the board for a couple of weeks now, and I was shocked to see so many more responses. I just want to thank each of you for your comments... good and bad. Insight is a good thing to have. Again, thank you.

 

[Tristero]

and a glut of plastic surgeons has already begun.

What are you talking about? Maybe in certain cities, but plastic surgery has been expanding at a crazy rate, and the number of residency spots has stayed small. That's not even considering the reconstructive job market, which is very good.

 

[thenavysurgeon]

Look people...let me give you some honest info.

1. 'Godfather' strikes me as some one that does not know what he is speaking about. He should be disregarded.

2. General Surgery residency is tough. It is. But a lot of professional 'rites of passgae' are as well...your first few years out of law school are no picnic, running one's own business is very stressful. My advice is to embrace your residency and 'live in the pain'...it is not forever, and I can tell you, it passes so quickly.

3. You can have a 'life' while in residency, you just have to get used to not sleeping very much. You're YOUNG! Go out and party with your fellow residents after work, go for a run, go to the gym, ask that cute nurse out. Don't wallow in your own self pity.

4. The job market for general surgeons is cranking. I am getting out of the navy in 10 months. I have head-hunters calling me everyday looking for surgeons. I was offered $350K yesterday by a trauma group in the mid west looking for a 5th surgeon to join them.

5. The trend lately is for the hospital to pay your malpractice insurance, and even do billing for you...surgeons in hospital-based practices are demanding this, and new hires are asking for it. its becoming an industry standard. let the hospital absorb the no-pay patients, let the hospital pay your malpractice. If you don't like the offer you get, work elsewhere.

6. if you are seriously upset about your residency, if you are in one, sit down with your program director and tell him your feelings. talk to someone. i felt like quitting, and almost did, during my R3 year. my PD and I sat down, with my mentor and talked over the situation, and I changed my mind.

Surgery is a great field, any branch of it is fascinating, and will suit the right person.

What else is there in life, besides taking care of the sick?

 

[Leukocyte]

........and will suit the right person.

Affirmitive. The "RIGHT PERSON" is the magic word.

And again, Dr. thenavysurgeon, you are not like the rest of us civilian pu****. You are a strong, deciplined soldier, who, as part of your military training, is conditioned to handle very tough and stressful situations. What is "easy" to you can be unbearable to us civilians.

No wonder you are recieving many great job offers. I mean, who would not want to hire a soldier, especialy a surgeon. The employer/group will be guaranteed a MENTALY STRONG, DECIPLINED, PROFICIENT doctor.

You, Dr. thenavysugeon, are the right person for this field.

 

[thenavysurgeon]

I trained in one of the major academic surgery programs in the US. A civilian program. I'm not a 'soldier', I am person that is suited to what surgery has to offer.