More Gloom on the Job Listserv.

[appelsoranjes]

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Members do not see this ad.

JOB #1:

RECRUITMENT ANNOUNCEMENT
Wasatch Mental Health
750 North 200 West, Suite 300
Provo, Utah 84601
(801) 373-4760 Fax: (801) 373-0639
www.wasatch.org
ISSUE DATE: 06/19/09 CLOSING DATE: Open until filled
POSITION: PSYCHOLOGIST - YOUTH OUTPATIENT
FULL TIME: 40 hours per week
Includes full benefit package
SCHEDULE: Varies 8:00 AM - 8:00 PM
Monday through Friday
SALARY: Grade 28
$24.13/hr meeting minimum qualifications
$25.40/hr after completing 6 months probation
MINIMUM QUALIFICATIONS - Graduation from an approved college or university
with a doctorate (PhD) degree in psychology, educational psychology or a related field; and
one year experience in an approved post doctoral internship. (Complete job descriptions
can be requested by emailing [email protected])
--------------------------------------------------------



JOB #2:

Full-time psychologist position available in the New York City Police Department's Psychological Evaluation Section. This interesting and important position involves fitness for duty evaluations of police personnel (uniformed and civilian), case monitoring, trauma debriefing, crisis intervention, and some pre-employment screening. Training and supervision will be provided. Applicants should have a strong interest in forensic evaluation as it is not a psychotherapy position.
The starting salary for a non-licensed psychologist is $54,097. If you are licensed, you get an additional $4,340.

 

[deleted176373]

I wouldn't work for that... Glad that's not me.

Mark

PS - "Includes full benefit package" - yes, does that include a Bently and a driver?

PPS - "This interesting and important position involves fitness for duty evaluations of police personnel (uniformed and civilian), case monitoring, trauma debriefing, crisis intervention, and some pre-employment screening." - Umm, if it's so important, don't you think it should pay more? Cops make more than that in NYC. according to the NYPD website - a Police Officer with 5.5 years will earn $90,829 before overtime.

 

[Neuropsych2be]

This is a perfect example of why so many in the field are pushing for RXp.

 

[JockNerd]

This is a perfect example of why so many in the field are pushing for RXp.

Elucidate the relationship between those thing for me.

 

[appelsoranjes]

Elucidate the relationship between those thing for me.

Well, on average, a 2-year masters degree in Psychiatric Nurse Practitioning will yield job offers in the 90-150k range. Why? They have prescriptive authority.

 

[JockNerd]

Well, on average, a 2-year masters degree in Psychiatric Nurse Practitioning will yield job offers in the 90-150k range. Why? They have prescriptive authority.

So, the motivation is money? I'm glad it's not something trivial like client welfare or appropriate treatment strategies.

🙄

I'm convinced that prescriptive privileges would have a huge negative impact on psychology in practice and as a profession.

 

[appelsoranjes]

So, the motivation is money? I'm glad it's not something trivial like client welfare or appropriate treatment strategies.

🙄

I'm convinced that prescriptive privileges would have a huge negative impact on psychology in practice and as a profession.

Yeah, I agree on the impact it will have on psychology as a practice/profession. At the same time, market demands can not be ignored either. Unfortunately we are in this position largely due to a poor job in demonstrating (scientifically and in other ways) the superiority of psychological interventions, the cost/benefits of these treatments vs. medications, and the necessity of doctoral-level training in administering these treatments.

 

[JockNerd]

Yeah, I agree on the impact it will have on psychology as a practice/profession. At the same time, market demands can not be ignored either. Unfortunately we are in this position largely due to a poor job in demonstrating (scientifically and in other ways) the superiority of psychological interventions, the cost/benefits of these treatments vs. medications, and the necessity of doctoral-level training in administering these treatments.

I see a problem with being in favor of RxP because of the lack of research showing we're any good at what we're supposed to be doing. It also seems illogical to me--seems like more of an argument for proving our skill & necessity rather than expanding the scope of our practice.

 

[deleted176373]

So, the motivation is money? I'm glad it's not something trivial like client welfare or appropriate treatment strategies.

🙄

I'm convinced that prescriptive privileges would have a huge negative impact on psychology in practice and as a profession.

Really, even for the idealists in the crowd... Yes, its about money and being able to support yourself and the ones you care about. Sad, but true. While it's great to be in a healing profession and to exhibit a great deal of altruism, at some point you have to take care of yourself to be able to take care of others.

Mark

 

[appelsoranjes]

I see a problem with being in favor of RxP because of the lack of research showing we're any good at what we're supposed to be doing. It also seems illogical to me--seems like more of an argument for proving our skill & necessity rather than expanding the scope of our practice.

It's not a direct relationship. The lack of research on our usefulness was, in part, responsible for psychology failing to establish an economic base to sustain itself. The decision to persue RxP in psychology is largely economics.

Twenty years ago dentistry was a dying profession much like psychology is currently. Flouridation of the water had so reduced cavitieis that most dentists were retiring early and students were not entering the field. The ADA sprung into action, instituted business and marketing courses in dental schools and embarked on a national reeducation campaign for its own members. As a result dentisty expanded into new services that are lucrative business because the public wants them and is willing to pay for them.

In contrast, APA has been impotent, unable to lead psychology practice out of its doldrums. The RxP push has been their only attempt to improve the situation - but the problems with which you already mentioned.

Instead, during the past 10 years, APA has loosened the admissions criteria by accrediting several for-profit degree mills and has at the same time reduced the emphasis of science in training and practice - an emphasis which made us unique compared to other (mid-level) practitioners.

RxP is a band-aid approach at fixing the misteps of the APA. But honestly, if it will create increased opportunities for practice, I'm all for it.

 

[appelsoranjes]

Really, even for the idealists in the crowd... Yes, its about money and being able to support yourself and the ones you care about. Sad, but true. While it's great to be in a healing profession and to exhibit a great deal of altruism, at some point you have to take care of yourself to be able to take care of others.

Mark

Yeah. I feel feel that psychology demonstrates a pervasive anti-business bias the reflects the belief that psychology is a compassionate profession and a person can not be financially sucessfull and still remain compassionate. Despite what we learn in social psychology about altruism (doesn't exist) and the adaptiveness of evolutionary-based self-interest, somehow the anti-business bias continues - thus remanding the practice of psychology to remain a compassionate and underpaid profession.

While we didn't become psychologists solely to make money, we also didn't become psychologists to lose money.

 

[Ollie123]

I'd love to see the CVs of people who end up in these sorts of jobs. The job market is a complex beast and many things factor into it, but it would be very interesting to see who ends up in these positions.

Agree that we suck at marketing ourselves, and that it is perfectly reasonable to pursue financial benefits. Personally, I feel like RxP would be a bandaid on a severed limb, and until we fix a number of other things wrong with the profession we have no business pursuing them.

 

[edieb]

I wouldn't work for that... Glad that's not me.

Mark

PS - "Includes full benefit package" - yes, does that include a Bently and a driver?

PPS - "This interesting and important position involves fitness for duty evaluations of police personnel (uniformed and civilian), case monitoring, trauma debriefing, crisis intervention, and some pre-employment screening." - Umm, if it's so important, don't you think it should pay more? Cops make more than that in NYC. according to the NYPD website - a Police Officer with 5.5 years will earn $90,829 before overtime.

You are going to have to, unless you invent something major. people in my class are at brown and yale and making $50K-55K after post-doc psychologists don't make decent money till years after graduation

 

[edieb]

I think this thread elucidates why our field is dying. People always feel that they are not going to be the ones making $50 K/year. As a student in college, and a graduate student, I was guilty of the same myopic mentality. I thought only people in low-ranked clinical-based programs would be the ones making $40-60K/year. It could never be me, lol!

Students from my school almost always place at the top internship and post-doc sites. Last year we had 2 go to Johns Hopkins, 2 go to Brown, 1 go to Yale and 1 go to UCSF. That is out of 8 students. All the others went to well known medical schools. This type of internship placement is a trend at my school. Out of all these students, all my friends, none of us are making >42K a year. If we stay at these sites past post-doc we will make $50K or so. These are research positions.

As an aside, I saw a posting about how psychologists are well regarded at top sites. IMO, being paid SO much less that MDs/DOs does not signal high regard to me. I have also heard many reports, but have no real first-hand experience, about how PhD psychologists at Yale cannot use "Dr." because MDs/DOs fear that this would creat confusion (this in Yale's hospital)....

My major professor, a very famous researcher and clinician who has been in the field 20 years, says he has never seen a student make more than $74K after 3-4 years and this happened only one time. My major professor is very rich and brags about making $500K a year but he has published several well know, very popular measures and has been on staff at Western Psychiatric, Yale with Kazdin, etc. He is definitely the exception. He has recently told his students that psychology is dying and applied clinical work is obsolete/that the only place for psychologists is research (unless you like poverty, lol).

Why am I saying all this?? To drive home the point that unless you invent something or just somehow are a complete outlier, you are going to be making the same amount of money. The most lucrative way to go, at least in the beginning, is to find a remote V.A. hospital and apply there. I am applying in very remote places, like Wyoming, where I hope to be making $56K + $10K in student loan repayment + relocation reimbursement.

Although I have over 20 publications (with others in my grad school lab), I am deciding that academe is just not worth it because very few positions pay much. So, it isn't the Argosy and Fielding students who end up in these positions, it is most of us. It isn't forever, but expect to make very little for a while after graduation. Luckily I am single and $56K/year is a lot, especially since I have no debt except $10 K in credit cards. However, unless all of us get our butts in gear and lobby, this will likely be your future, too!

All anybody does is debate about what we should do, but all this energy could be better used to actually do something, anything, that helps move us forward. Look up APA Capwiz and write a letter to your reps to include psychology in national healthcare, call your state psychological ass'n and find out how you can get involved, just do something

 

[deleted176373]

I think this thread elucidates why our field is dying. People always feel that they are not going to be the ones making $50 K/year

Why am I saying all this?? To drive home the point that unless you invent something or just somehow are a complete outlier, you are going to be making the same amount of money. The most lucrative way to go, at least in the beginning, is to find a remote V.A. hospital and apply there. I am applying in very remote places, like Wyoming, where I hope to be making $56K + $10K in student loan repayment + relocation reimbursement.

So, it isn't the Argosy and Fielding students who end up in these positions, it is most of us. It isn't forever, but expect to make very little for a while after graduation. Luckily I am single and $56K/year is a lot, especially since I have no debt except $10 K in credit cards. However, unless all of us get our butts in gear and lobby, this will likely be your future, too!

I will continue to be a happy outlier, seriously, this is not good for the field in general. Really, $60k after this much schooling is insulting, and unfortunately prevalent because we allow it to be or because we don't add enough value to demand more. I prefer to think that it's the former and not the later.

I agree that it isn't Argosy and Fielding that are facing these grim prospects but students from decent schools too. I can't imagine having to work for that kind of pay, and more to the point, I won't work for that kind of pay. I feel fortunate to be compensated as well as I am now, and I also know that I could be making more in other fields that I am qualified to work in. I chose Psychology because I enjoy the work, but I would not have chosen this field if I had to take a vow of poverty as a condition for employment.

The bottom line is that no one has to make $50k/year in this field, but if you want to make up good money you'll likely have to make some sacrifice that others won't make. The market is saturated in many respects, and unless you are willing to work in a portion of the market that is not saturated, you may be facing this ridiculously low pay. If I couldn't pull near 6 figures post graduation, I would have likely had to consider another field.

Mark

PS - As a student I make more than $74k per year (I should add that all military psychologists will be north of $74k by the end of their 4th year.) Yes, it's an exception to the rule, but proof you don't have to live in poverty.

 

[psychmama]

I will continue to be a happy outlier, seriously, this is not good for the field in general.
I chose Psychology because I enjoy the work, but I would not have chosen this field if I had to take a vow of poverty as a condition for employment.


Mark, I agree that you've found a loophole in the system that works well for you. But in reality, most psychologists aren't going to work for the military. It would be impractical for many of us. Does that mean we've made wrong decisions in going into the field? That's a highly individualistic question. I've made six figures. It's nice, but it didn't make up for my dislike of the work.

 

[edieb]

Psychmama -

I think it's important to note that while you may enjoy the work, you will likely begin to have other interests after graduate school, interests that will require you to have money. Loving your work is nice, but it isn't the end all be all.

You want to buy a house? braces for the kids? send mom and dad on a vaction? All this requires money.

 

[futureapppsy2]

^
With all due respect, I'd really think that psychmama--a 40-something former lawyer with teenage kids--probably thought through that already.

Eh, I have to admit that I'm somewhat unambitious in terms of a money--a career making $50k to start and $60-70k later seems fine with me. I know I don't want to have kids for personal reasons, and if/when I get married, I assume my husband will probably work at least some of time. Living a big house would be difficult for me, too, as would a lot of travel. Money, imo, is a much greater consideration if you have/plan to have/might want kids. Kids are expensive! 😉

 

[deleted176373]

Mark, I agree that you've found a loophole in the system that works well for you. But in reality, most psychologists aren't going to work for the military. It would be impractical for many of us. Does that mean we've made wrong decisions in going into the field? That's a highly individualistic question. I've made six figures. It's nice, but it didn't make up for my dislike of the work.

I couldn't agree more with you. I don't think it's right for the pay to be this low either though.

I've made $250+/hr before working as a network security consultant, I've been deep into the 6 figures before, and you're right, many times it's just not worth it. You hit the nail on the head... Do you have a workable plan that works for YOU? If you do, great... If you don't... Not so great.

As far as the military goes, I was having this discussion the other day with someone asking how competitive HPSP slots were. I told the person the same thing you just essentially said... most of the competition has already self selected out. Military psychologists are not "typical", we do work that some people would find difficult, and we do it in situations that many would find unacceptable.

So yes, it works well for me... I would only recommend it to those who are interested in being in the military first.

Mark

 

[medium rare]

The RxP push isn't about money. . . and it is. There is too much pressure from both ends (psychiatry and master's level clinicians) and psychology is increasingly becoming less relevant, at least in the eyes of administrators. The only real place left to make a decent amount of money clinically is private practice, and even that is becoming increasingly challenging.

Psych NPs have proliferated simply because there is an acute shortage of psychiatrists in most areas. Essentially, they are the only providers available to help fill the demand. As a result, their "authority" and income have risen exponentially, depsite the fact that their training is unquestionably less comprehensive than that of doctoral level providers. But, they fill a need the market demands and they reap economic rewards because of it.

Without this authority in the clinical setting, it will be difficult for psychology to influence and change the system. Acquiring prescriptive authority will allow psychologists the same level of influence in the system and thereby allow psychology to begin to implement changes. For example, in the CMHC where I work 1 day/week, I am the only psychologist prescriber and consistently have the lowest pharmaceutical expenditure/provider ratio among all the 40+ prescribers on staff. This is because I am able to intervene psychotherapeutically with patients - even within the 20 minutes I am allowed for each - to a much greater extent than the non-psychologist prescribers. For a patient with anxiety, I am able to initiate an exposure/desensitization protocol, as an example, and keep the patient off medication or at the lowest dose and/or number of medications possible. This provides the patient with enduring results that build self efficacy while at the same time saving the agency considerably on pharmacy costs. My training as a psychologist makes a HUGE difference in my prescribing patterns, but it is my prescriptive authority that allows me to be in the position to make the changes.

As for income, I cleared $200,000 NET last year without working over 38 hours/week. Private practice is lucrative and quite easy (my phone rings non-stop with new referrals), and I simply say that I won't work for less than $125/hour in any clinical setting outside my private practice. The CMHC knows my work and reputation and values my service and pays me with no questions asked. I could probably get more from them, actually, if I pushed the issue. My point is that once I got Rx authority the money quickly followed, and I have been, in some ways, in a better position to use my training and expertise as a psychologist because of it.

 

[JockNerd]

I'll put my concern about RxP super bluntly.

Imagine RxP were passed in all states tomorrow. Literally immediately, all professional schools would become Bayer/Eli Lily/whatever-paid Psychological prescriber factories. This is a reasonable assumption, because RxP does have the high demand mentioned, and this area would actually allow students to pay off the $100k+ debt these schools incur. How many days do you think it would take for the salaries of prescribing psychologists to drop like a rock, with that influx? I'd bet not many. Plus, the practioners would not, I think, be the responsible, integrative providers Medium Rare is talking about--they would be similar to the worst examples of the med-round psychiatrists who shill for the drug companies.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I've made $250+/hr before working as a network security consultant, I've been deep into the 6 figures before, and you're right, many times it's just not worth it. You hit the nail on the head... Do you have a workable plan that works for YOU? If you do, great... If you don't... Not so great.

Agreed.

I too was a former biz consultant, and the lifestyle wasn't worth the money. I miss the expense account, but I don't miss the stress, etc.

....I am able to intervene psychotherapeutically with patients - even within the 20 minutes I am allowed for each - to a much greater extent than the non-psychologist prescribers. For a patient with anxiety, I am able to initiate an exposure/desensitization protocol, as an example, and keep the patient off medication or at the lowest dose and/or number of medications possible. This provides the patient with enduring results that build self efficacy while at the same time saving the agency considerably on pharmacy costs. My training as a psychologist makes a HUGE difference in my prescribing patterns, but it is my prescriptive authority that allows me to be in the position to make the changes.

I have heard this a number of times from the prescribing psychologists I know, and I think it is a great example of how our training as psychologists puts us in the best position to prescribe when needed, but not use a hammer because that is the tool we have handy.

 

[docjohng]

I have heard this a number of times from the prescribing psychologists I know, and I think it is a great example of how our training as psychologists puts us in the best position to prescribe when needed, but not use a hammer because that is the tool we have handy.

Yes and no. Decades ago, psychiatrists mostly only did psychotherapy too. Then as demand for medication increased, so did their focus on prescribing. I think it's naive to suggest that the majority of psychologist-prescribers would still be completely balanced as they understand the marketplace for their services is heavily weighted toward prescribing. How would psychologists be immune to this pressure and influence?

John

 

[cara susanna]

JockNerd: My objection is that it would make psychologists mid-level providers. I think that's rather insulting, tbh.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yes and no. Decades ago, psychiatrists mostly only did psychotherapy too. Then as demand for medication increased, so did their focus on prescribing. I think it's naive to suggest that the majority of psychologist-prescribers would still be completely balanced as they understand the marketplace for their services is heavily weighted toward prescribing. How would psychologists be immune to this pressure and influence?

John

The "demand" was from the advent of SSRIs and the introduction of HMOs. The economic shift that occurred definitely effected prescribing, but from what has been seen in the first 10 years, it is just another tool in the tool box.

 

[medium rare]

JockNerd: My objection is that it would make psychologists mid-level providers. I think that's rather insulting, tbh.

NO ONE treats me like a mid-level, even though I prescribe as a NP. I am addressed as "Dr. X" every place I work by all levels of staff from the receptionists to the Medical Director to the CEO. I made it clear that my expectation was to have the same professional courtesy afforded to any psychiatrist and it has never been an issue. You'll only be treated as a mid-level if you allow yourself to. Being a psychologist has made a clear difference with regard to this issue.

 

[medium rare]

Yes and no. Decades ago, psychiatrists mostly only did psychotherapy too. Then as demand for medication increased, so did their focus on prescribing. I think it's naive to suggest that the majority of psychologist-prescribers would still be completely balanced as they understand the marketplace for their services is heavily weighted toward prescribing. How would psychologists be immune to this pressure and influence?John

Keeping RxP training at the postdoctoral level goes a long way in managing these concerns. Traditional training as a psychologist does not change. It's speciality training just like neuro and forensics.

 

[medium rare]

I'll put my concern about RxP super bluntly.
Imagine RxP were passed in all states tomorrow. Literally immediately, all professional schools would become Bayer/Eli Lily/whatever-paid Psychological prescriber factories. This is a reasonable assumption, because RxP does have the high demand mentioned, and this area would actually allow students to pay off the $100k+ debt these schools incur. How many days do you think it would take for the salaries of prescribing psychologists to drop like a rock, with that influx? I'd bet not many. Plus, the practioners would not, I think, be the responsible, integrative providers Medium Rare is talking about--they would be similar to the worst examples of the med-round psychiatrists who shill for the drug companies.

Drug company influence is a concern. However, there have recently been many changes with regard to how much drug reps can "influence" a prescriber. Reps come in and tell me "I can't do this anymore" and "I can't pay for that anymore."

Psychology would do well to put limitations on the level of influence big pharma can exert through marketing. But, the prescriber diploma mill situation has not happened in advanced practice psychiatric nursing programs and I doubt it would be significantly different with psychology - especially since RxP training is postdoctoral.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

But, the prescriber diploma mill situation has not happened in advanced practice psychiatric nursing programs and I doubt it would be significantly different with psychology - especially since RxP training is postdoctoral.

After 4-5 years of schooling, 1 year of internship, and 1-2 years of post-doc....most psychologists just want to get out. I don't see it every becoming more than a sub-specialty, even if all 50 states offer licensing in the area.

 

[medium rare]

After 4-5 years of schooling, 1 year of internship, and 1-2 years of post-doc....most psychologists just want to get out. I don't see it every becoming more than a sub-specialty, even if all 50 states offer licensing in the area.

I agree completely.

 

[edieb]

Yes and no. Decades ago, psychiatrists mostly only did psychotherapy too. Then as demand for medication increased, so did their focus on prescribing. I think it's naive to suggest that the majority of psychologist-prescribers would still be completely balanced as they understand the marketplace for their services is heavily weighted toward prescribing. How would psychologists be immune to this pressure and influence?

John

That's great you believe that, although I don't believe it. However, you don't have the right to tell other psychologists what how they need to practice. If they want more $$ and want only to do med checks, what right do you have to tell them that they cannot???

 

[edieb]

JockNerd: My objection is that it would make psychologists mid-level providers. I think that's rather insulting, tbh.

We are already considered mid-levels. If salaries don't give that away ($25/hour???), job appllcations will... I filled out some applications for various jobs & all of them (V.A. included) said at the top "Allied Health Care Prfoessionals"

 

[cara susanna]

Wow, that is depressing ._.

 

[edieb]

I am confused, according to this, the u.s. army pays about $25/hour, too. MarkP, how are you making so much?


Clinical Psychologist (U.S. Army)

SALARY: 49,544.00 USD /year OPEN PERIOD: Friday, July 24, 2009 to Thursday, December 31, 2009
SERIES & GRADE: YA-0180-02/02 POSITION INFORMATION: Multiple Schedules - Permanent
DUTY LOCATIONS: vacancy(s) in one of the following locations: many vacancies - Throughout the World; many vacancies - Throughout the Nation
WHO MAY BE CONSIDERED: US Citizens

JOB SUMMARY:
Challenge Yourself - Be an Army Civilian - Go Army!
Civilian employees serve a vital role in supporting the Army mission. They provide the skills that are not readily available in the military, but crucial to support military operations. The Army integrates the talents and skills of its military and civilian members to form a Total Army.

Organization(s):
Projected Duty Locations
23%-25% COLA will be added to the base salary for the states of Alaska and Hawaii
Overseas Locations: Germany, Belgium, Italy, Japan, Korea
Stateside Locations: AL, AK, AZ, CO, DC, GA, HI, KS, KY, LA, MD, NY, MO, NC, NY, OK, SC, TN, TX, VA, and WA.

Position Status: This announcement may be used to fill permanent full-time, part-time or intermittent positions. Indicate on your resume your availability for any of these appointments.


About the Position: Federal employees seeking CTAP/ICTAP eligibility must submit proof that they meet the requirements of 5 CFR 330.605(a) for CTAP and 5 CFR 330.704 for ICTAP. This includes providing with your application, a copy of the agency notice, a copy of your most recent Performance Rating and a copy of your most recent SF-50 noting current position, grade level, and duty location. Please annotate your application that you are applying as a CTAP or ICTAP eligible.


When you apply, your application will stay on file with our office for 120 days. If you would like to be considered after the initial 120 please contact our office at (309)782-5350 or email at [email protected] and ask to have your resume rolled over for an additional 120 days.
Who May Apply: Click here for more information.
This is a Direct Hire Solicitation
All U. S. citizens and Nationals with allegiance to the United States.
Interagency Career Transition Assistance Plan (ICTAP) eligibles.

NSPS Position: This position is covered by the National Security Personnel System. For more information on NSPS, please visit the website at http://www.cpms.osd.mil/nsps/index.html.

 

[Ollie123]

Looks like that posting is for civilians. I believe MarkP is enlisted.

 

[edieb]

Oh, ok, so he is actually in the military. So it's really not the fact that the military pays PSYCHOLOGISTS that much money, but it sounds like it's the fact that they pay ALL their personnel more money for actually being in the military

 

[deleted176373]

Looks like that posting is for civilians. I believe MarkP is enlisted.

Yes, I am "actually" in the military.

I am NOT enlisted. I am commissioned. I was enlisted when I was in the USAF, as an officer you are commissioned. It's a subtle difference to those outside of the military but a substantial difference to those serving in the military.

I am confused, according to this, the u.s. army pays about $25/hour, too. MarkP, how are you making so much?

Below is my Pay and Earning Statement with some information removed for privacy purposes. Quick math says I should make $84k this year.

Mark

 

[Ollie123]

Sorry Mark, meant no harm, was totally unaware there was a difference. To me its always just been "Actually in the military vs. Not actually in the military"

 

[psychmama]

Psychmama -

I think it's important to note that while you may enjoy the work, you will likely begin to have other interests after graduate school, interests that will require you to have money. Loving your work is nice, but it isn't the end all be all.

You want to buy a house? braces for the kids? send mom and dad on a vaction? All this requires money.

EdieB, you are right. I already have all of those concerns. The house, the taxes, the cars, college looming on the horizon, and braces. Don't forget I have three kids, ranging from 10-17. I've got it all and it's very stressful right now. So I know where you're coming from. Let's just say that I haven't bought a new car in like 8 yrs and summer vacation this year consisted of day trips to the NJ shore.🙄

I think every individual needs to find their ideal work/life balance. It may be different for you and me. Still, I don't disagree that Psychologists on average under-earn given their high level of education and training. It's just that I love it way more than any other thing I can think of doing. That said, I have some ideas for increasing my earning potential. Some of them are starting a small private practice while working a day job at a hospital or counseling center, doing forensic assessments, and perhaps consulting to the legal profession (since I need to leverage my JD somehow). I hope at least some of these ideas pan out, but who knows? I might be mistaken. No one told me to change careers though, it was my decision. So I plug away as best I can and try to accept the limitations of the profession. In my experience, every profession has them..

I think it's good that you make others aware of the realities of practicing psychology. That way others can make informed decisions about whether the trade-offs are worth it.🙂