More psychologist prescribing

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Doctor Bagel

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So a psychologist prescribing bill just passed in Idaho, and it looks like it's pretty much a sure deal to pass in Oregon. For those of you in states with psychologist prescribing (NM, LA?) how does it look? My understanding is it's not well-utilized.

I guess the glut of PsyDs with high debt and low income want to make more money?

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there are 57 RxPs in NM and 56-72 in LA depending on the source. We're talking tiny numbers. Then again, only 289 psychiatrists (of which 179 are in Albuquerque) are estimated to be working in NM and 519 board certified psychiatrists in LA (but unclear how many are actually still practicing, and of which 275 are in NOLA or Baton Rouge etc).

This is not going to a "threat" to psychiatrists any time in the foreseeable future, and if or when it does, psychiatry will only have itself to blame. Most psychologists have no interest in gaining so-called "prescriptive authority" and even within the other APA there is a strong anti-RxP movement among those who believe it will damage and undermine the profession.

It is also a myth that "just wait until they started getting sued." not. going. to. happen.

CMS data show the high prescribers seem to like rx'ing seroquel, abilify, risperdal, cogentin, trazodone, cymbalta, klonopin, adderall, and xanax alot.
 
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I think the whole idea of whether or not this affects (or will eventually affect) psychiatrists really misses the mark. This thread was in the psychology forum last week. Overall, this large excerpt of my post summarizes a lot of my thoughts on the issue.

Overall, I believe Rx psychology is bad for public health. Not because I believe psychologists will be inadvertently killing people left and right -- hell, a handful of high school kids have posed as physicians and treated patients in many settings, including ERs, over reasonably-lengthy periods or time without any evidence of adverse events. I find it highly unlikely that people will be dropping dead when some psychologist starts prescribing Zoloft. The biggest problem is this false narrative in society about the greater need for psychiatric medications and the continual overselling of ideas that perpetuate society's external locus of control. The biggest problem I deal with on a daily basis and the largest barrier to clinical improvement, bar none, is the externalization of problems and the reliance on external sources of validation for inward problems. The analogy of diabetes is rather appropriate. Type I and type II are very different fundamentally but ultimately have some similar outcomes because they both fall under the diabetes umbrella by virtue of elevating blood glucose levels. There are certainly things a type I diabetic can do to modify many of their risk factors but it is certainly a disease that can just happen upon someone. When society blurs the lines between the two, we make assumptions about diabetes as a whole and start to de-emphasize lifestyle modification in favor of a disease model. Only 10% of diabetics are type I. I'm kind of going off on a tangent here, but irrational societal beliefs help accentuate and perpetuate a very strong external locus of control. I see Rx psychology as similar to a personal trainer at the gym wanting the ability to prescribe insulin to type II diabetics. The personal trainer -- functioning as a personal trainer -- will have more power to help the individual as well as society by assisting that person with personal improvement through training and not inappropriately prescribing insulin. Every time some antisocial shoots up a public space, we hear cries for more mental health funding. Many people in mental health fields eat this up and use these tragedies to push this agenda, too, but we all know it's nonsense. We believe in mental health treatment, but not necessarily for preventing willful human behavior, but many are willing to hide behind that to push agenda. So too Rx psychology.

The other questions that must be asked is which populations are being targeted with this? To read the political narrative would reference that difficult access to psychiatrists -- which is really more a problem of treating the "under-served" or, more specifically, severely mentally ill populations -- are the targets. Are psychologists looking to go in to community mental health centers and treat people with schizophrenia, manage long-acting injectables or maintain someone on clozapine? Are they going to manage medications for a person with multiple hospitalizations for mania who had to be taken off lithium because of CKD and also has Parkinson's? Or are they looking to supplement psychotherapy with Prozac? Or offer different augmentation and polypharmacy that a PCP would not? We all know that Rx psychologists would, or most likely should, recognize the limits of their training and, with some small exceptions, I'm sure, would not be treating a lot of the SMI or medically complex. Even the DoD psychologists were prescribing antipsychotics <10% of the time. One of my questions is, of those in, say, rural Idaho, who have access to a psychologist, what percentage of those don't also have access to a PCP? If this is the population Rx psychology is looking for, I wish they'd just say that and argue those points in the political sphere. But, of course, as this is political, it's being sold on how important access to care is and using populations that the Rx psychologist won't be seeing as justification for advancing this agenda. Seems to play out like a bait and switch.

To accept the idea of Rx psychology you have to accept a few false premises:

1. There's a shortage of access to psychiatric medications.
2. This shortage of access to psychiatric medications is adversely affecting the population (they even reference suicides in this Idaho link in OP).
3. Expanding the scope of practice for non-psychiatrists to prescribe these medications will help alleviate this problem.
4. Current state regulations in Rx states is sufficient criteria for psychologists to effectively step in to this role.

If we're talking about lack of evidence, there's absolutely no evidence for any of those premises. I guess it's the AMA's job to prove those premises aren't true?

5th states passes prescriptive authority
 
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I don't think that 10-12 online courses with open book test and from degree mills offering "master level psychopharmacology" is the same as medical school and a 4year residency (minimum). This is akin to a physical therapist prescribing medications - why not go to medical school if you think prescribing medicines are so important to your self worth and for patients. I think this is about making money off the backs of the mentally ill and supporting the industrialized pharmaceutical companies while providing greater income for places providing these "advanced degrees".
 
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I could take over the medications for my patient or I could encourage them to educate themselves and work with whoever is prescribing for them to find the most appropriate regimen for themselves. Which one is going to be more beneficial? How many of these patients who need "increased access" are really people in poverty, lack of education, substance use, and limited intellectual abilities or combinations thereof? I just don't see medications or outpatient psychotherapy being able to do much for these societal issues and is often a show to make us feel better about ourselves. I see this play out in psychotherapy a bit too much already. "We did everything. Went to therapy, took the medications, and nothing helped." They neglect to say that they were not willing to actually do anything different.

On a related note, does anybody actually believe that there are people somewhere in this country who have serious mental illness and don't get medications for it? Where I practice is about as remote and poor access as it gets and that is not the case at all. It is true that the nearest psychiatrist is about two to three hours away and for the more severe patients that is simply not feasible. The question in our community is whether or not our two PMHNPs (with online degrees) and the family practice providers are managing these patients better than a prescribing psychologist would. Maybe I could do a better job (or at least I wouldn't diagnose everyone as schizoaffective as one provider does or Bipolar II the way the other does) with some more medical specific training, but then who provides the high level of psychotherapy and behavioral treatments that I currently provide? That would fall to the extremely poorly trained and supervised mid-level counselors. Don't even get me started about inpatient or residential treatment. The more i think about this stuff, the more I think I should just join in with the other pod people and just spout cliches about increased access, evidenced-based medicine, and patient-centered blah blah blah.
 
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I will accept PAs, NPs and psychologists prescribing without physician oversight as soon as the nursing unions agree that MAs and techs can take over doing all the tasks RNs do so we can increase patient access to good nursing care. It seems so inefficient to make nursing education a long process when we can just have MAs do some online tutorials about hanging IVs and such. No biggie.

Seriously, this trend of letting people become prescribers with watered down training (especially online) is scary. Doctors are horrible at standing up for themselves and organizing, unlike many of these other professions who want to take over our jobs.
These laws are being promoted and passed by people who don't know what they don't know and therefore can't appreciate the value of all the training we go through. We have to be aggressive about pushing back against this... and making sure that when there are bad outcomes from non-MDs acting as docs that they face consequences for it.
 
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I will accept PAs, NPs and psychologists prescribing without physician oversight as soon as the nursing unions agree that MAs and techs can take over doing all the tasks RNs do so we can increase patient access to good nursing care. It seems so inefficient to make nursing education a long process when we can just have MAs do some online tutorials about hanging IVs and such. No biggie.

Seriously, this trend of letting people become prescribers with watered down training (especially online) is scary. Doctors are horrible at standing up for themselves and organizing, unlike many of these other professions who want to take over our jobs.
These laws are being promoted and passed by people who don't know what they don't know and therefore can't appreciate the value of all the training we go through. We have to be aggressive about pushing back against this... and making sure that when there are bad outcomes from non-MDs acting as docs that they face consequences for it.

People want to make more and more money, with as little liability and training as possible. Don't see that changing in the near future, unfortunately.
 
Psychiatrists will always have a job....who do you think psychologists will refer to their patients too when they can't figure out how to get their patient's off their 10mg of Xanax that they prescribed?

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Psychiatrists will always have a job....who do you think psychologists will refer to their patients too when they can't figure out how to get their patient's off their 10mg of Xanax that they prescribed?

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Jokes on them. We haven't figured it out either.


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What`s the point of doing FOUR YEARS of psychiatry residency when someone can prescribe psychotropic medications with much less training?
Maybe, we could decrease our training to three years.
 
What`s the point of doing FOUR YEARS of psychiatry residency when someone can prescribe psychotropic medications with much less training?
Maybe, we could decrease our training to three years.

This has been said about psychiatry for years informally but because neurology has 4 years, so does this field.
 
Jokes on them. We haven't figured it out either.


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True story!

About residency shortening, we probably really could. We let C&A people fast track, and 4th year at my program was very chill and self-directed (not a bad thing but maybe not absolutely necessary). Of course now we're in this arms war to justify our training/income meaning we can't cut anything out because that's our argument for why we're needed. Medical school could also be 3 years aside from the psychological and logistical benefits of the 4th year. Of course in law school they say it's 3 years so you have 2 summers to get a job -- you finish almost all of your required courses your first year.

Now I'm wondering how many psychiatrists there are in Oregon. Not many. Probably a lot fewer in Idaho. We've got a lot of NPs though although still probably at shortage levels.
 
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I could take over the medications for my patient or I could encourage them to educate themselves and work with whoever is prescribing for them to find the most appropriate regimen for themselves. Which one is going to be more beneficial? How many of these patients who need "increased access" are really people in poverty, lack of education, substance use, and limited intellectual abilities or combinations thereof? I just don't see medications or outpatient psychotherapy being able to do much for these societal issues and is often a show to make us feel better about ourselves. I see this play out in psychotherapy a bit too much already. "We did everything. Went to therapy, took the medications, and nothing helped." They neglect to say that they were not willing to actually do anything different.

On a related note, does anybody actually believe that there are people somewhere in this country who have serious mental illness and don't get medications for it? Where I practice is about as remote and poor access as it gets and that is not the case at all. It is true that the nearest psychiatrist is about two to three hours away and for the more severe patients that is simply not feasible. The question in our community is whether or not our two PMHNPs (with online degrees) and the family practice providers are managing these patients better than a prescribing psychologist would. Maybe I could do a better job (or at least I wouldn't diagnose everyone as schizoaffective as one provider does or Bipolar II the way the other does) with some more medical specific training, but then who provides the high level of psychotherapy and behavioral treatments that I currently provide? That would fall to the extremely poorly trained and supervised mid-level counselors. Don't even get me started about inpatient or residential treatment. The more i think about this stuff, the more I think I should just join in with the other pod people and just spout cliches about increased access, evidenced-based medicine, and patient-centered blah blah blah.

One, in my community, no, there's not a real shortage of prescribing. The bigger problem is getting patients to show up and take medications. We have a free walk in clinic where you can see a psychiatrist or NP at most hours of the day that's not bustling. And yes, trying to prescribe for homelessness and the adverse effects of having a personality disorder that now has made your life unmanageable isn't a winning game.

In the Oregon bill, I believe the psychologists will have to work with supervision and actually be employed by a health care system. This means they'll be put in the "prescriber" role in a med mill type of capacity which is a shame.
 
True story!

About residency shortening, we probably really could. We let C&A people fast track, and 4th year at my program was very chill and self-directed (not a bad thing but maybe not absolutely necessary). Of course now we're in this arms war to justify our training/income meaning we can't cut anything out because that's our argument for why we're needed. Medical school could also be 3 years aside from the psychological and logistical benefits of the 4th year. Of course in law school they say it's 3 years so you have 2 summers to get a job -- you finish almost all of your required courses your first year.

Now I'm wondering how many psychiatrists there are in Oregon. Not many. Probably a lot fewer in Idaho. We've got a lot of NPs though although still probably at shortage levels.
I heard both the Idaho psychiatrists are frustrated.
 
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Psychiatrists will always have a job....who do you think psychologists will refer to their patients too when they can't figure out how to get their patient's off their 10mg of Xanax that they prescribed?

Hopefully they will refer to the underclass of psychologists who still primarily provide behavior therapy. ;)
 
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One, in my community, no, there's not a real shortage of prescribing. The bigger problem is getting patients to show up and take medications. We have a free walk in clinic where you can see a psychiatrist or NP at most hours of the day that's not bustling. And yes, trying to prescribe for homelessness and the adverse effects of having a personality disorder that now has made your life unmanageable isn't a winning game.

In the Oregon bill, I believe the psychologists will have to work with supervision and actually be employed by a health care system. This means they'll be put in the "prescriber" role in a med mill type of capacity which is a shame.
Ironically, the main thought of most reasonable psychologists who might support RxP is to provide better care than the med mill type of operation. So many of us idealistic types in healthcare have no idea how to deal with the powers that really make the decisions. If you followed the money on this whole RxP thing, I wonder if you might find it coming from Eli Lilly, Pfizer, Astra-Zeneca, Janssen, GlaxoSmithKline, etc. I don't think psychologists have enough influence to get this stuff passed through these legislatures especially since half of us don't even support it.
 
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Ironically, the main thought of most reasonable psychologists who might support RxP is to provide better care than the med mill type of operation. So many of us idealistic types in healthcare have no idea how to deal with the powers that really make the decisions. If you followed the money on this whole RxP thing, I wonder if you might find it coming from Eli Lilly, Pfizer, Astra-Zeneca, Janssen, GlaxoSmithKline, etc. I don't think psychologists have enough influence to get this stuff passed through these legislatures especially since half of us don't even support it.

Perhaps they just forgot which APA they usually donate large sums of money to?
 
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Ironically, the main thought of most reasonable psychologists who might support RxP is to provide better care than the med mill type of operation. So many of us idealistic types in healthcare have no idea how to deal with the powers that really make the decisions. If you followed the money on this whole RxP thing, I wonder if you might find it coming from Eli Lilly, Pfizer, Astra-Zeneca, Janssen, GlaxoSmithKline, etc. I don't think psychologists have enough influence to get this stuff passed through these legislatures especially since half of us don't even support it.
The diploma mill schools like argosy and alliant are funding this to keep their numbers and tuition up...
 
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I wonder when AI will get prescribing rights. It does not seem too far fetched that if someone with an online degree is allowed to prescribe psych meds that a computer program with a sophisticated algorithm can be developed with equal or greater ability to diagnose and treat common mental illnesses. Where the AI would struggle is with conditions involving cognitive impairment and psychosis ie. patient is unable to provide a reliable history or willing to participate. However, this will not be difficult for AI to overcome with version upgrades. AI defeats Psychiatry then goes to the final head to head battle with Psychology. ⚔️. Nurse practitioners colonize TRAPPIST-1.


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I wonder when AI will get prescribing rights. It does not seem too far fetched that if someone with an online degree is allowed to prescribe psych meds that a computer program with a sophisticated algorithm can be developed with equal or greater ability to diagnose and treat common mental illnesses. Where the AI would struggle is with conditions involving cognitive impairment and psychosis ie. patient is unable to provide a reliable history or willing to participate. However, this will not be difficult for AI to overcome with version upgrades. AI defeats Psychiatry then goes to the final head to head battle with Psychology. ⚔️. Nurse practitioners colonize TRAPPIST-1.


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Thats a great movie.
 
I wonder when AI will get prescribing rights. It does not seem too far fetched that if someone with an online degree is allowed to prescribe psych meds that a computer program with a sophisticated algorithm can be developed with equal or greater ability to diagnose and treat common mental illnesses. Where the AI would struggle is with conditions involving cognitive impairment and psychosis ie. patient is unable to provide a reliable history or willing to participate. However, this will not be difficult for AI to overcome with version upgrades. AI defeats Psychiatry then goes to the final head to head battle with Psychology. ⚔️. Nurse practitioners colonize TRAPPIST-1.


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This will happen eventually. However, by the time this occurs, it wont really matter because many other jobs will have already been replaced, and we will have mechanisms to deal with it (e.g., universal basic income). Those specialties with minimal patient contact (i.e., radiology and pathology) are probably going way before psychiatry. I personally think that entering radiology residency at this time is risky business for this reason...
 
I heard both the Idaho psychiatrists are frustrated.
Yup, I was looking at becoming the third....maybe Oregon is the answer so if I'm supervising this type of practice I can at least slap the psychologist if necessary

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Quit medicine and become a street doc installing cyberware.

I like to imagine myself in the rain. Eating street food. Immersed in some weird pidgin culture and language of russian, chinese, and english. Scrapping out a living as a hunter of rogue psych AI's. Who have been targeting famous, fatuous celebrities with haldal/ativan injection shots like sniperbots.

 
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I like to imagine myself in the rain. Eating street food. Immersed in some weird pidgin culture and language of russian, chinese, and english. Scrapping out a living as a hunter of rogue psych AI's. Who have been targeting famous, fatuous celebrities with haldal/ativan injection shots like sniperbots.




Really? Haldol? Invega has something for 3 months....

sheeesh! Amatures!

Need to become a better rigger.
 
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Really? Haldol? Invega has something for 3 months....

sheeesh! Amatures!

Need to become a better rigger.

Damn. Ok. So apparently, I'm your hapless sidekick then.
 
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