Oct 23, 2013
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As the parent of a OMS3 student who has just started their clerkships, it appears to me that there could be made the case that some DO schools might actually be a better learning environment and provide a better educational opportunity than many of the traditional MD programs.


This has nothing to do with MCAT scores, GPA's or extra circular work a student has done. It has to do with your time in medical school and the opportunities to learn.


Traditionally the first two years is predominately classroom and lab work, culminating with your Step 1 or Series 1 board tests. Both MD and DO schools cover the same material and in many cases students will take both tests to increase their chances of obtaining the residency program they desire.


For a DO student to pass both the Step 1 and the Series 1, it requires them to study for two tests. The tests are similar but there are differences, enough to where extra preparation will be required.

Taking both tests and passing with competitive scores could be viewed as a higher quality candidate for residency versus only taking one of the test.


Most MD students only take the one Step 1 test, which could be a disadvantage depending on the score, as compared to a DO student who takes both and does well.


It is also at this point and the last two years of school that an argument could be made that a DO School which is not have a direct affiliation with a "teaching hospital" might provide the best educational experience.


If a school does not have a direct relationship with a teaching hospital, then for their clerkships, DO students are many times placed with private practice doctors with whom the school has contracted.

Many times this results in a One on One experience.


Traditional programs for 3rd and 4th years students have protocols and a hierarchy structure that makes it difficult for students to participate in hands aspects of treating a patient.


For our OMS 3 student, their first clerkship was with a general surgeon. They were able to "scrub in" on a daily basis and actually participate in the procedures by closing or other functions. Sometimes participating in as many as 12 surgeries a day during the 6 weeks.


This would be unusual in other more traditional programs where there can be a competition for the opportunity to scrub in, not just by the student doctors but first and second year residents as well.


So for a practical hands on aspect, the ability to work with doctors in a one on one environment and participate in the treatment with patients during your 3rd and 4th year would seem to be a great advantage in the quality of the education a medical student would receive.


For those considering if an MD or DO or offshore school might be best, be sure to look beyond just the MCAT scores, the GPA for the students accepted or simply the reputation of the school, but what your time at the school will be like and the opportunities you may have to participate in the profession you have chosen.
 

DrBowtie

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As the parent of a OMS3 student who has just started their clerkships, it appears to me that there could be made the case that some DO schools might actually be a better learning environment and provide a better educational opportunity than many of the traditional MD programs.


This has nothing to do with MCAT scores, GPA's or extra circular work a student has done. It has to do with your time in medical school and the opportunities to learn.


Traditionally the first two years is predominately classroom and lab work, culminating with your Step 1 or Series 1 board tests. Both MD and DO schools cover the same material and in many cases students will take both tests to increase their chances of obtaining the residency program they desire.


For a DO student to pass both the Step 1 and the Series 1, it requires them to study for two tests. The tests are similar but there are differences, enough to where extra preparation will be required.

Taking both tests and passing with competitive scores could be viewed as a higher quality candidate for residency versus only taking one of the test.


Most MD students only take the one Step 1 test, which could be a disadvantage depending on the score, as compared to a DO student who takes both and does well.


It is also at this point and the last two years of school that an argument could be made that a DO School which is not have a direct affiliation with a "teaching hospital" might provide the best educational experience.


If a school does not have a direct relationship with a teaching hospital, then for their clerkships, DO students are many times placed with private practice doctors with whom the school has contracted.

Many times this results in a One on One experience.


Traditional programs for 3rd and 4th years students have protocols and a hierarchy structure that makes it difficult for students to participate in hands aspects of treating a patient.


For our OMS 3 student, their first clerkship was with a general surgeon. They were able to "scrub in" on a daily basis and actually participate in the procedures by closing or other functions. Sometimes participating in as many as 12 surgeries a day during the 6 weeks.


This would be unusual in other more traditional programs where there can be a competition for the opportunity to scrub in, not just by the student doctors but first and second year residents as well.


So for a practical hands on aspect, the ability to work with doctors in a one on one environment and participate in the treatment with patients during your 3rd and 4th year would seem to be a great advantage in the quality of the education a medical student would receive.


For those considering if an MD or DO or offshore school might be best, be sure to look beyond just the MCAT scores, the GPA for the students accepted or simply the reputation of the school, but what your time at the school will be like and the opportunities you may have to participate in the profession you have chosen.
Aside from being a parent, what is your background? Are you also in the medical field? Your points are largely spin used by DO programs to attempt to justify their curricular weaknesses in preparing students to be RESIDENTS.

FYI MD students scrub in daily on cases even with traditional structure with junior residents. Also ACGME residency programs don't care about COMLEX if the student took USMLE.

Perhaps more importantly is that the most beneficial learning on surgery is not done in the OR. It's learning how to take care of post op patients, work them up pre op, indications for surgeries. The technical aspects of surgery are learned during residency.
 
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AnatomyGrey12

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Traditionally the first two years is predominately classroom and lab work, culminating with your Step 1 or Series 1 board tests. Both MD and DO schools cover the same material and in many cases students will take both tests to increase their chances of obtaining the residency program they desire.
True

For a DO student to pass both the Step 1 and the Series 1, it requires them to study for two tests. The tests are similar but there are differences, enough to where extra preparation will be required.
True

Taking both tests and passing with competitive scores could be viewed as a higher quality candidate for residency versus only taking one of the test.
No...

Most MD students only take the one Step 1 test, which could be a disadvantage depending on the score, as compared to a DO student who takes both and does well.
Yeah no again

It is also at this point and the last two years of school that an argument could be made that a DO School which is not have a direct affiliation with a "teaching hospital" might provide the best educational experience.
No, it is inferior

If a school does not have a direct relationship with a teaching hospital, then for their clerkships, DO students are many times placed with private practice doctors with whom the school has contracted.
Back to a true statement

Many times this results in a One on One experience.
Also true

Traditional programs for 3rd and 4th years students have protocols and a hierarchy structure that makes it difficult for students to participate in hands aspects of treating a patient.
Eh possibly at some schools but this is too general so no here as well

For our OMS 3 student, their first clerkship was with a general surgeon. They were able to "scrub in" on a daily basis and actually participate in the procedures by closing or other functions. Sometimes participating in as many as 12 surgeries a day during the 6 weeks.
Not the point of medical school or rotations

This would be unusual in other more traditional programs where there can be a competition for the opportunity to scrub in, not just by the student doctors but first and second year residents as well.
Eh also too general of a statement so no.

So for a practical hands on aspect, the ability to work with doctors in a one on one environment and participate in the treatment with patients during your 3rd and 4th year would seem to be a great advantage in the quality of the education a medical student would receive.
No, it is propaganda spewed by the kool aid drinkers and the schools that give it

For those considering if an MD or DO or offshore school might be best, be sure to look beyond just the MCAT scores, the GPA for the students accepted or simply the reputation of the school, but what your time at the school will be like and the opportunities you may have to participate in the profession you have chosen.
Ending with a solid true statement.


You sound just like a proud parent whose child is working hard to follow dreams, nothing wrong with that and great for them. They will make a good doctor someday. But don't believe everything you are told about medical education, and I say this as someone applying to exclusively DO schools. In general the DO clinical experience is worse than the MD clinical education. The great fallacy lies in that medical school is actually not to train you to be a doctor as is commonly believed, but that is the job of residency. Medical school is to prepare you for residency, specifically intern year. This is hard to replicate in a model where preceptorships pre-dominate the clinical rotations.
 
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coffee-doc

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your 3rd / 4th year rotations are for preparing you to become a functional resident in a field of your choice. you don't learn to become an actual doctor yet. in residency, you learn to become a doctor.

One on One interactions with private practices (who get paid by the school most likely) does nothing for preparing you to become a resident. you learn nothing about how an academic hospital is run, where is where you'll be spending the next 3 to 7 years.
 

cliquesh

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your 3rd / 4th year rotations are for preparing you to become a functional resident in a field of your choice. you don't learn to become an actual doctor yet. in residency, you learn to become a doctor.

One on One interactions with private practices (who get paid by the school most likely) does nothing for preparing you to become a resident. you learn nothing about how an academic hospital is run, where is where you'll be spending the next 3 to 7 years.
We have interns from top medical schools and many of them are clearly smart, but they don't know anything functional. Many of them spent 1/4 or 1/3 of their 4th year doing non-clinical rotations required by their schools, and then they spent another 1/2 year doing easy rotations, like radiology and pathology, so by the time they get to residency any skills they've learned have already atrophied. Medical education is pretty messed up, and it's not a problem only impacting osteopathic medical schools.

You need to know how to write a decent note, know how to admit someone, and, ideally, complete a couple electives in critical care. If you can do that stuff you'll be prepared for intern year, and you can do this at pretty much any school.
 
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As the parent of a OMS3 student who has just started their clerkships, it appears to me that there could be made the case that some DO schools might actually be a better learning environment and provide a better educational opportunity than many of the traditional MD programs.


This has nothing to do with MCAT scores, GPA's or extra circular work a student has done. It has to do with your time in medical school and the opportunities to learn.


Traditionally the first two years is predominately classroom and lab work, culminating with your Step 1 or Series 1 board tests. Both MD and DO schools cover the same material and in many cases students will take both tests to increase their chances of obtaining the residency program they desire.


For a DO student to pass both the Step 1 and the Series 1, it requires them to study for two tests. The tests are similar but there are differences, enough to where extra preparation will be required.

Taking both tests and passing with competitive scores could be viewed as a higher quality candidate for residency versus only taking one of the test.


Most MD students only take the one Step 1 test, which could be a disadvantage depending on the score, as compared to a DO student who takes both and does well.


It is also at this point and the last two years of school that an argument could be made that a DO School which is not have a direct affiliation with a "teaching hospital" might provide the best educational experience.


If a school does not have a direct relationship with a teaching hospital, then for their clerkships, DO students are many times placed with private practice doctors with whom the school has contracted.

Many times this results in a One on One experience.


Traditional programs for 3rd and 4th years students have protocols and a hierarchy structure that makes it difficult for students to participate in hands aspects of treating a patient.


For our OMS 3 student, their first clerkship was with a general surgeon. They were able to "scrub in" on a daily basis and actually participate in the procedures by closing or other functions. Sometimes participating in as many as 12 surgeries a day during the 6 weeks.


This would be unusual in other more traditional programs where there can be a competition for the opportunity to scrub in, not just by the student doctors but first and second year residents as well.


So for a practical hands on aspect, the ability to work with doctors in a one on one environment and participate in the treatment with patients during your 3rd and 4th year would seem to be a great advantage in the quality of the education a medical student would receive.


For those considering if an MD or DO or offshore school might be best, be sure to look beyond just the MCAT scores, the GPA for the students accepted or simply the reputation of the school, but what your time at the school will be like and the opportunities you may have to participate in the profession you have chosen.
Yep, these DO vs MD threads get old. DO mom, be proud that your son or daughter got into a DO program but don't be self delusional and try to hype its superiority to an MD program. Just encourage your son or daughter to maximize their own potential. ...Grades and board scores and a competitive match. He/she will need to work harder to compete with MD students match wise, but it is a competitive world.
 
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As the parent of a OMS3 student who has just started their clerkships, it appears to me that there could be made the case that some DO schools might actually be a better learning environment and provide a better educational opportunity than many of the traditional MD programs.


This has nothing to do with MCAT scores, GPA's or extra circular work a student has done. It has to do with your time in medical school and the opportunities to learn.


Traditionally the first two years is predominately classroom and lab work, culminating with your Step 1 or Series 1 board tests. Both MD and DO schools cover the same material and in many cases students will take both tests to increase their chances of obtaining the residency program they desire.


For a DO student to pass both the Step 1 and the Series 1, it requires them to study for two tests. The tests are similar but there are differences, enough to where extra preparation will be required.

Taking both tests and passing with competitive scores could be viewed as a higher quality candidate for residency versus only taking one of the test.


Most MD students only take the one Step 1 test, which could be a disadvantage depending on the score, as compared to a DO student who takes both and does well.


It is also at this point and the last two years of school that an argument could be made that a DO School which is not have a direct affiliation with a "teaching hospital" might provide the best educational experience.


If a school does not have a direct relationship with a teaching hospital, then for their clerkships, DO students are many times placed with private practice doctors with whom the school has contracted.

Many times this results in a One on One experience.


Traditional programs for 3rd and 4th years students have protocols and a hierarchy structure that makes it difficult for students to participate in hands aspects of treating a patient.


For our OMS 3 student, their first clerkship was with a general surgeon. They were able to "scrub in" on a daily basis and actually participate in the procedures by closing or other functions. Sometimes participating in as many as 12 surgeries a day during the 6 weeks.


This would be unusual in other more traditional programs where there can be a competition for the opportunity to scrub in, not just by the student doctors but first and second year residents as well.


So for a practical hands on aspect, the ability to work with doctors in a one on one environment and participate in the treatment with patients during your 3rd and 4th year would seem to be a great advantage in the quality of the education a medical student would receive.


For those considering if an MD or DO or offshore school might be best, be sure to look beyond just the MCAT scores, the GPA for the students accepted or simply the reputation of the school, but what your time at the school will be like and the opportunities you may have to participate in the profession you have chosen.
I have to completely disagree with this, I graduated from a DO school, if I had the opportunity to go MD, I would easily take the MD route, most of the general public are aware of MDs, also most of the people in the medical community. Many newer DO schools do not have their act together with regards to clinical education, people invest a good amount of time energy, and, financial resources into their education only to wind up having to piece together their education in their final years with minimal assistance from their schools. I think Allopathic schools offer far better infrastructure with regards to clinical education, of course there are a few outliers among MD schools, but they are a few, many DO schools have their students relocate around the country to complete their clinical studies.

DO only has the advantage over offshore schools but not any North American LCME MD school.

The other thing to mention is student debts, its becoming a serious issue, many schools are private, which means higher tuition, and higher student debt burdens when you leave. As a DO, you will be at a disadvantage compared to your MD peers when it comes to residencies. Some people I knew who went to state MD schools matched in nice programs but also incurred less debt.
 
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OP, as a faculty member at a DO school, I appreciate the sentiment, I really do, and if your child is going to a school west of St. Louis, s/he might very well be one of mine.

That said, my clinical colleagues have addressed the many errors in your logic. I would to follow up on what I perceive is the biggest one, that of the 1:1 preceptor in a non-wards based clerkship. these are, I feel the most harmful things in the Osteopathic profession. One doesn't learn Medicine by sitting at the feet of the wise master and passively learning. You learn by doing. Preceptorships are basically glorified shadowing.

This leaves students ill-trained, and gives residency directors the opinion that ALL DO students are poorly trained. Right or wrong, this denies DOs from entering more competitive specialties, or better residencies, period. While the glass door is slowly swinging open (at least for my students), the AOA's solution is simply to open more and more DO schools, with the mindset of "More DOs good!" No, it's NOT good, and it won't be improved until the clinical clerkships are improved.

One more thing. COMLEX = Level I; USMLE = Step I. There is no "Series I" board certification exam.
 
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OP, as a faculty member at a DO school, I appreciate the sentiment, I really do, and if your child is going to a school west of St. Louis, s/he might very well be one of mine.

That said, my clinical colleagues have addressed the many errors in your logic. I would to follow up on what I perceive is the biggest one, that of the 1:1 preceptor in a non-wards based clerkship. these are, I feel the most harmful things in the Osteopathic profession. One doesn't learn Medicine by sitting at the feet of the wise master and passively learning. You learn by doing. Preceptorships are basically glorified shadowing.

This leaves students ill-trained, and gives residency directors the opinion that ALL DO students are poorly trained. Right or wrong, this denies DOs from entering more competitive specialties, or better residencies, period. While the glass door is slowly swinging open (at least for my students), the AOA's solution is simply to open more and more DO schools, with the mindset of "More DOs good!" No, it's NOT good, and it won't be improved until the clinical clerkships are improved.

One more thing. COMLEX = Level I; USMLE = Step I. There is no "Series I" board certification exam.
Who are you?! Is this an alternate universe?

Never thought I'd say this but....i agree 100%.


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4th year DO student here. Just completing some real rotations now that fourth year has started. There is a night and day difference between being in an academic environment for third year compared to following around a private practice doc. Sadly I got burned by this, but I'm at least trying to overcome my clinical deficits by doing some good away rotations. DO Schools leave us out to dry during 3rd and 4th year.
 
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bannie22

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Your child made the wrong decision. Sorry. I have seen DO/MD. So there is always the option of returning to school for another medical degree.
 

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As the parent of a OMS3 student who has just started their clerkships, it appears to me that there could be made the case that some DO schools might actually be a better learning environment and provide a better educational opportunity than many of the traditional MD programs.
Okay, let's see


This has nothing to do with MCAT scores, GPA's or extra circular work a student has done. It has to do with your time in medical school and the opportunities to learn.
I agree that medical school provides opportunities to learn during your time there


Traditionally the first two years is predominately classroom and lab work, culminating with your Step 1 or Series 1 board tests. Both MD and DO schools cover the same material and in many cases students will take both tests to increase their chances of obtaining the residency program they desire.
Traditionally yes, though many schools are moving towards abbreviated preclinical curriculums (1-1.5 years)


For a DO student to pass both the Step 1 and the Series 1, it requires them to study for two tests. The tests are similar but there are differences, enough to where extra preparation will be required.
Taking both tests and passing with competitive scores could be viewed as a higher quality candidate for residency versus only taking one of the test.
Maybe for a DO/AOA residency, but ACGME residencies probably don't even know what Series 1 is


Most MD students only take the one Step 1 test, which could be a disadvantage depending on the score, as compared to a DO student who takes both and does well.
Your (mostly incorrect) argument here is that an MD student who scores worse is worse in terms of residency chances than a DO who scores better, but you're not contributing to your overall thesis that DO schools give you an advantage over MD schools in some way; you're just saying that an MD scoring worse could be better than a DO that doesn't which doesn't really tell me anything at all.

Again, ACGME residencies don't care about Series 1 (I don't even know what Series 1 is - I assume it's related to COMLEX)

It is also at this point and the last two years of school that an argument could be made that a DO School which is not have a direct affiliation with a "teaching hospital" might provide the best educational experience.
okay lets see


If a school does not have a direct relationship with a teaching hospital, then for their clerkships, DO students are many times placed with private practice doctors with whom the school has contracted.
Okay great, so a private practice doctor, whose main concern is taking care of their patients and who is a private practice doctor precisely because that means they don't have to deal with the bureaucratic nonsense that occurs in academic medicine (no hate on academic medicine here - I want to become an academic physician) is going to be paid a sum of money to teach medical students the skills they need to function as an intern come July 1 after they graduate.

These physicians will mostly be outpatient primary care docs who will not be dealing with acutely sick patients in settings such as the ICU, will not be performing major procedures, will not hold grand rounds or Sub-I lectures for students to learn, and will not be seeing patients that come in through the ED, admit a patient, etc etc etc. The docs will be caring for their patients the best they can and not focusing on the teaching side of academics because they do not have a system in place to do so. It's a very different type of environment. Not necessarily better or worse, but not conducive to teaching.

Many times this results in a One on One experience.
Yes, but I still don't know how you think this makes for a better learning environment when the student isn't experiencing situations that they need to go through to start to become a competent clinician.

Traditional programs for 3rd and 4th years students have protocols and a hierarchy structure that makes it difficult for students to participate in hands aspects of treating a patient.
Those protocols and hierarchy are in place because it's generally not a good idea to let an M3 in his third day of surgery clerkship fresh out of Step 1 try to clip an MCA aneurysm. Obviously that's an extreme example, and I agree that sometimes hierarchy and protocols can interfere with learning, they are also conducive to it by providing a standardized system through which students learn and gradually accumulate more responsibilities as their skillset and confidence grows.

For our OMS 3 student, their first clerkship was with a general surgeon. They were able to "scrub in" on a daily basis and actually participate in the procedures by closing or other functions. Sometimes participating in as many as 12 surgeries a day during the 6 weeks.
Cool, us too (except the 12 surgeries a day part... what are you supposed to be getting out of doing 12 surgeries a day as a student other than getting really good at walking from OR to OR?)

This would be unusual in other more traditional programs where there can be a competition for the opportunity to scrub in, not just by the student doctors but first and second year residents as well.
I scrubbed in and got to help with a liver transplant as an M1 and so did probably 1/3 of my class.

You will be scrubbing in on your surgery rotation regardless of where you go to school.

So for a practical hands on aspect, the ability to work with doctors in a one on one environment and participate in the treatment with patients during your 3rd and 4th year would seem to be a great advantage in the quality of the education a medical student would receive.
You get to do this as an MD student too

For those considering if an MD or DO or offshore school might be best, be sure to look beyond just the MCAT scores, the GPA for the students accepted or simply the reputation of the school, but what your time at the school will be like and the opportunities you may have to participate in the profession you have chosen.
If you get into US MD, go MD (barring exceptional circumstances) and never look back. If you get into DO, go DO and never look back (there are no exceptional circumstances here).
If you get into offshore MD, do something else.
 

AnatomyGrey12

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Your child made the wrong decision. Sorry. I have seen DO/MD. So there is always the option of returning to school for another medical degree.
I'm with Senpai here, what are you talking about? I can't imagine a more colossal waste of time than to go back to MS1 after getting a DO simply for a different degree... Nice, strong inflammatory post.
 

Dr. Death

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Traditionally yes, though many schools are moving towards abbreviated preclinical curriculums (1-1.5 years)
Are there many more in the works currently? I haven't heard about this at all in my neck of Murica. I thought it was just a small handful of schools and other schools are viewing it as they would a pilot program.
 

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4th year DO student here. Just completing some real rotations now that fourth year has started. Their is a night and day difference between being in an academic environment for third year compared to following around a private practice doc. Sadly I got burned by this, but I'm at least trying to overcome my clinical deficits by doing some good away rotations. DO Schools leave us out to dry during 3rd and 4th year.
I have a question for you. I just interviewed at a school with a few electives third year and ~ 80% electives 4th year. Is this the norm? Seemed more than what I have read here, but I really do not know. The message put forth was that the "audition" rotations are vital. Not sure if I should be skeptical or not in having to schedule so many of my own rotations (again, this only appeared to be > the norm for me from readings here).

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They do it for the lulz
 
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4th year DO student here. Just completing some real rotations now that fourth year has started. Their is a night and day difference between being in an academic environment for third year compared to following around a private practice doc. Sadly I got burned by this, but I'm at least trying to overcome my clinical deficits by doing some good away rotations. DO Schools leave us out to dry during 3rd and 4th year.
Also the amount of money you just spent for your "third year rotations" which were spent at a private practice or physician offices. Going to medical school is expensive but at least for those at MD schools its nice to know their money is being spent on state of the art teaching hospitals where they are getting their third and fourth year training.
 
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Spikebd

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I have a question for you. I just interviewed at a school with a few electives third year and ~ 80% electives 4th year. Is this the norm? Seemed more than what I have read here, but I really do not know. The message put forth was that the "audition" rotations are vital. Not sure if I should be skeptical or not in having to schedule so many of my own rotations (again, this only appeared to be > the norm for me from readings here).

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If you have to pick it's best to have a lot of elective time during fourth year. That way you have the option of doing away rotations at actual residency programs, which will show you the work required to be a successful intern and resident. It's definitely shady and unfortunate that we get pawned off on programs around the country but you have to look out for yourself and be aggressive trying to get good rotations.
 
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Are there many more in the works currently? I haven't heard about this at all in my neck of Murica. I thought it was just a small handful of schools and other schools are viewing it as they would a pilot program.
5/6 schools I interviewed at had some sort of abbreviated curriculum. I think the majority still do 2 year, but more are changing every year.
 

IsWhat

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We have attendings in another thread complaining about residents and their inability to make decisions on their own - a byproduct of training in a system where hand holding is prevalent. Then people here embracing the idea that undergraduate medical education is to teach you how to be an intern/resident - not to be a doctor.

You would think finding a middle ground would be ideal for everyone's education.
 

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As the parent of a OMS3 student who has just started their clerkships, it appears to me that there could be made the case that some DO schools might actually be a better learning environment and provide a better educational opportunity than many of the traditional MD programs.


This has nothing to do with MCAT scores, GPA's or extra circular work a student has done. It has to do with your time in medical school and the opportunities to learn.


Traditionally the first two years is predominately classroom and lab work, culminating with your Step 1 or Series 1 board tests. Both MD and DO schools cover the same material and in many cases students will take both tests to increase their chances of obtaining the residency program they desire.


For a DO student to pass both the Step 1 and the Series 1, it requires them to study for two tests. The tests are similar but there are differences, enough to where extra preparation will be required.

Taking both tests and passing with competitive scores could be viewed as a higher quality candidate for residency versus only taking one of the test.


Most MD students only take the one Step 1 test, which could be a disadvantage depending on the score, as compared to a DO student who takes both and does well.


It is also at this point and the last two years of school that an argument could be made that a DO School which is not have a direct affiliation with a "teaching hospital" might provide the best educational experience.


If a school does not have a direct relationship with a teaching hospital, then for their clerkships, DO students are many times placed with private practice doctors with whom the school has contracted.

Many times this results in a One on One experience.


Traditional programs for 3rd and 4th years students have protocols and a hierarchy structure that makes it difficult for students to participate in hands aspects of treating a patient.


For our OMS 3 student, their first clerkship was with a general surgeon. They were able to "scrub in" on a daily basis and actually participate in the procedures by closing or other functions. Sometimes participating in as many as 12 surgeries a day during the 6 weeks.


This would be unusual in other more traditional programs where there can be a competition for the opportunity to scrub in, not just by the student doctors but first and second year residents as well.


So for a practical hands on aspect, the ability to work with doctors in a one on one environment and participate in the treatment with patients during your 3rd and 4th year would seem to be a great advantage in the quality of the education a medical student would receive.


For those considering if an MD or DO or offshore school might be best, be sure to look beyond just the MCAT scores, the GPA for the students accepted or simply the reputation of the school, but what your time at the school will be like and the opportunities you may have to participate in the profession you have chosen.
Rigorous beatings from an academic attending and endless note writing and scut work are far better preparation for a medical career than what often amounts to glorified one-on-one shadowing at many osteopathic third year rotations. I've had a great experience, but those at other schools are often not so lucky.
 
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The_Bird

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Also the amount of money you just spent for your "third year rotations" which were spent at a private practice or physician offices. Going to medical school is expensive but at least for those at MD schools its nice to know their money is being spent on state of the art teaching hospitals where they are getting their third and fourth year training.
Ok cool, but can we stop acting as if all MD students rotate at Star Fleet Medical HQ and that they also don't have some bad preceptorships?
 
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Ok cool, but can we stop acting as if all MD students rotate at Star Fleet Medical HQ and that they also don't have some bad preceptorships?
In the majority of cases these less rigorous rotations at US MD schools are still inpatient rotations but at an affiliated community hospital or VA. However an entirely outpatient IM or surgery rotation following a private practice doc like the ones we hear about at DO schools would not meet LCME standards.


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The_Bird

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In the majority of cases these less rigorous rotations at US MD schools are still inpatient rotations but at an affiliated community hospital or VA. However an entirely outpatient IM or surgery rotation following a private practice doc like the ones we hear about at DO schools would not meet LCME standards.


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Sure, but in reality the grass isn't as green on the other side of the fence, as some on this board are prone to thinking. Plenty of MD kids have bad stories to tell as well.
 

JoeUSA

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As the parent of a OMS3 student who has just started their clerkships, it appears to me that there could be made the case that some DO schools might actually be a better learning environment and provide a better educational opportunity than many of the traditional MD programs.


This has nothing to do with MCAT scores, GPA's or extra circular work a student has done. It has to do with your time in medical school and the opportunities to learn.


Traditionally the first two years is predominately classroom and lab work, culminating with your Step 1 or Series 1 board tests. Both MD and DO schools cover the same material and in many cases students will take both tests to increase their chances of obtaining the residency program they desire.


For a DO student to pass both the Step 1 and the Series 1, it requires them to study for two tests. The tests are similar but there are differences, enough to where extra preparation will be required.

Taking both tests and passing with competitive scores could be viewed as a higher quality candidate for residency versus only taking one of the test.


Most MD students only take the one Step 1 test, which could be a disadvantage depending on the score, as compared to a DO student who takes both and does well.


It is also at this point and the last two years of school that an argument could be made that a DO School which is not have a direct affiliation with a "teaching hospital" might provide the best educational experience.


If a school does not have a direct relationship with a teaching hospital, then for their clerkships, DO students are many times placed with private practice doctors with whom the school has contracted.

Many times this results in a One on One experience.


Traditional programs for 3rd and 4th years students have protocols and a hierarchy structure that makes it difficult for students to participate in hands aspects of treating a patient.


For our OMS 3 student, their first clerkship was with a general surgeon. They were able to "scrub in" on a daily basis and actually participate in the procedures by closing or other functions. Sometimes participating in as many as 12 surgeries a day during the 6 weeks.


This would be unusual in other more traditional programs where there can be a competition for the opportunity to scrub in, not just by the student doctors but first and second year residents as well.


So for a practical hands on aspect, the ability to work with doctors in a one on one environment and participate in the treatment with patients during your 3rd and 4th year would seem to be a great advantage in the quality of the education a medical student would receive.


For those considering if an MD or DO or offshore school might be best, be sure to look beyond just the MCAT scores, the GPA for the students accepted or simply the reputation of the school, but what your time at the school will be like and the opportunities you may have to participate in the profession you have chosen.


This is very true and very well described. Rotating with an individual preceptor is a wonderful educational experience that is much better than getting lost in a crowd. The hands on experience offered by DO schools is highly valuable. The successful DO educational experience demonstrates that large buildings are not needed to provided a quality educational experience and graduate competent physicians.
 

AnatomyGrey12

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This is very true and very well described. Rotating with an individual preceptor is a wonderful educational experience that is much better than getting lost in a crowd. The hands on experience offered by DO schools is highly valuable. The successful DO educational experience demonstrates that large buildings are not needed to provided a quality educational experience and graduate competent physicians.
I'm shocked you haven't been banned yet... Attending physician my rear.. The "hands on experience" is just an excuse for getting out of building affiliated residency programs, affiliations and rotations at large hospitals, building a teaching hospital, and expanding class sizes. DO students often succeed in spite of the education at a number of schools, says more about the students than it does the schools.
 
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