most cutthroat or laid back med schools
Started by curiouslygeorge
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curiouslygeorge said:
Yale doesn't assign grades so its laid back; well at least by med school standards
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I think its all dependent on the people that are in your class also.
I know that the crowd I hang out with at my school is very laid back - not any competition and we are all very supportive of one another. But, there are some gunners in my class (as is true of most classes) that may be more competitive.
I have also heard horror stories about Hopkins like people stealing classmates notes so they don't do well on exams but these are second-hand stories and who knows if they are true or not (you will find that people often exaggerate their experiences).
Med school, by nature, is competitive - most of us have type A personalities with a little OCD thrown in ... its just to what extent.
I know that the crowd I hang out with at my school is very laid back - not any competition and we are all very supportive of one another. But, there are some gunners in my class (as is true of most classes) that may be more competitive.
I have also heard horror stories about Hopkins like people stealing classmates notes so they don't do well on exams but these are second-hand stories and who knows if they are true or not (you will find that people often exaggerate their experiences).
Med school, by nature, is competitive - most of us have type A personalities with a little OCD thrown in ... its just to what extent.
I second (third?) the opinions already stated re: Yale, JHU, and UCSD. Apparently SD is becoming a place of and for number-wh0res.
I hear that UCSF isn't quite as cuthroat (though stats are higher for there than SF), and that both Vandy and Baylor are relatively less so as well.
I hear that UCSF isn't quite as cuthroat (though stats are higher for there than SF), and that both Vandy and Baylor are relatively less so as well.
GW = laid back
ToxicFugu said:
How is Pritzker "lower tier"
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Pritzker = UchicagoMahlerROCKS said:
Rosalind Franklin = chicago med,
I would suggest that any schools that in recent years have recently swapped grade systems (ABCDF) for equivalent "nongrade" distinctions (i.e. Honors, High Pass, Pass, Low Pass, Fail) are probably telegraphing to you that they had a problem with cutthroats/gunners and are trying to ease away from that by creating a supposedly more relaxed "pass/fail" system. Thus those schools which still give letter grades are probably those where these attitudes aren't prevalent or a problem, and thus more relaxed.
for what its worth, having been an undergrad at hopkins and now a medical student, this is just not true. the medical school is far less competitive than the undergrad was, due in large part to the fact that there is little pressure to be the top of the class anymore- take a look at our match lists and it becomes obvious that "average" at hopkins still means you get to go essentially wherever you want.loveumms said:
the other criticism of the hopkins system tends to be that we use a honors/hp/p/fail, which people equate to a/b/c/f or some derivative thereof. first, the number of people who gets honors and high passes is so few (~10% or so each for most blocks) that it hardly corresponds to a an a/b/c system where the implication is that you receive an A for doing good work.
second, what lots of school fail to tell you is that although you may only receive a P or a F, your rank in class (which is based on your actual numerical performance) is calculated and in fact reported to the residency programs to which you apply. hopkins, on the other hand, does not release class ranks. all in all, when you go to school with the kinds of people that hopkins classes tend to attract, there's just need to be competitive. for the most part, people learn because they genuinely care about the material- in the end, being "average" here is hardly something to be ashamed of and definitely won't keep you from doing what you want to do.
but hey, rumors exist because people like to believe them so i won't expect to have changed many minds re: hopkins. i'd only suggest to do your homework before you accept the stories of someone's friend's cousin's neighbor who knew someone who went to hopkins med and then had his notes stolen/books burned/fingers cut off by his classmates so he couldn't take tests etc....
*edit: its also johnS hopkins
I absolutely agree with Jhugti,
We just had our first exam and everybody was superhelpful. People shared notes and old exams from previous year (though they were posted on-line anyways). I think I can say that I have never met so many friendly people in one spot (there are 117 of us). The previous year seems laid back and chill too. They are trying to make our transition as smooth as possible.
Our schedule is not busy at all so far. Mon through Thu:8-1 pm,and Fri: 8-3.30 pm (with an hour break for lunch). The schedule will get busier by the end of the year : 8-4 pm, but not everyday.
So far I love it and plus there is no ranking after all. Last year maximum one person in class failed, but none were suspended or left behind.
I have also spoken to a couple of 3rd and fourth years. Third year seems to be the hardest, and 4th the easiest.
If u have any questions pm me.
We just had our first exam and everybody was superhelpful. People shared notes and old exams from previous year (though they were posted on-line anyways). I think I can say that I have never met so many friendly people in one spot (there are 117 of us). The previous year seems laid back and chill too. They are trying to make our transition as smooth as possible.
Our schedule is not busy at all so far. Mon through Thu:8-1 pm,and Fri: 8-3.30 pm (with an hour break for lunch). The schedule will get busier by the end of the year : 8-4 pm, but not everyday.
So far I love it and plus there is no ranking after all. Last year maximum one person in class failed, but none were suspended or left behind.
I have also spoken to a couple of 3rd and fourth years. Third year seems to be the hardest, and 4th the easiest.
If u have any questions pm me.
I want to go to a cutthroat laid-back medical school, where no one is really concerned about his/her own grades, but seeks to sabotage the competition simply out of a deep-seated hatred for everyone else.
themadchemist said:
LOL!
If you really read my response: these are second-hand stories and who knows if they are true or not (you will find that people often exaggerate their experiences).
And I actually heard this from a girl I had organic chemistry. Her sister attended Hopkins med and someone asked to borrow her notes to make copies then said they lost them. This was some years ago and maybe it was more cut-throat then (I believe she graduated med school somewhere in the late 90s).
I was in no way attacking Hopkins (my aunt is an alum and I actually have a few friends that attend the med school too) but, from your response you are quite defensive about it and come off a little arrogant too:
all in all, when you go to school with the kinds of people that hopkins classes tend to attract, there's just need to be competitive. for the most part, people learn because they genuinely care about the material- in the end, being "average" here is hardly something to be ashamed of and definitely won't keep you from doing what you want to do.
My response to this is:
If you get into any medical school you should be proud of yourself. As long as you work hard, get good USMLE scores and have excellent LOR you will be able to get the residency you desire.
Also, being average at ANY medical school is quite an achievement in of itself!
I can only speak for myself, but Im pretty sure most medical students would agree that we all learn because we care about the material. Its not like when you are in undergrad and suffer through some classes (it was physics for me) just to get the A so your transcripts will be impressive for med school admission. I dont think a patient is ever going to ask you what your GPA or USMLE scores are they are going to want to know if you are good at what you do and if you care about them.
Maryland doesnt release class ranking to residency programs either. Our school uses A/B/C/fail grading system with the top 5-10% of each block receiving honors. We share notes on the F drive (its a server that allows you to post notes/pictures/study aides/ect). Ive also lent my books to underclassman and many of my colleagues have done the same.
When you go on interviews, ask the students how they feel about that individual school and if they are happy there.
And I actually heard this from a girl I had organic chemistry. Her sister attended Hopkins med and someone asked to borrow her notes to make copies then said they lost them. This was some years ago and maybe it was more cut-throat then (I believe she graduated med school somewhere in the late 90s).
I was in no way attacking Hopkins (my aunt is an alum and I actually have a few friends that attend the med school too) but, from your response you are quite defensive about it and come off a little arrogant too:
all in all, when you go to school with the kinds of people that hopkins classes tend to attract, there's just need to be competitive. for the most part, people learn because they genuinely care about the material- in the end, being "average" here is hardly something to be ashamed of and definitely won't keep you from doing what you want to do.
My response to this is:
If you get into any medical school you should be proud of yourself. As long as you work hard, get good USMLE scores and have excellent LOR you will be able to get the residency you desire.
Also, being average at ANY medical school is quite an achievement in of itself!
I can only speak for myself, but Im pretty sure most medical students would agree that we all learn because we care about the material. Its not like when you are in undergrad and suffer through some classes (it was physics for me) just to get the A so your transcripts will be impressive for med school admission. I dont think a patient is ever going to ask you what your GPA or USMLE scores are they are going to want to know if you are good at what you do and if you care about them.
Maryland doesnt release class ranking to residency programs either. Our school uses A/B/C/fail grading system with the top 5-10% of each block receiving honors. We share notes on the F drive (its a server that allows you to post notes/pictures/study aides/ect). Ive also lent my books to underclassman and many of my colleagues have done the same.
When you go on interviews, ask the students how they feel about that individual school and if they are happy there.
I thought Yale didn't even have tests. How are people finding ways to be competitive in classes? 😕seilienne said:
So then people are competitve about tests they don't even HAVE to take? Wow.
NapeSpikes said:
according to yale's website, they don't have grades at all for the first 2 years. zero. so competitive meaning, i'm guessing here, that i know more than you or some such, probably.
if they actually have a working system like that, it sounds like fun to me. theorectically the system is setup to ensure that you help each other learn.
fiddler
The way to guage this is not by first and second year behavior. Stealing class notes is not competative, its f-ing psychotic, you're no more likely to run into that at JH than you are at Drexel. You can do your own thing first and second year and do as well as you would have anywhere else regardless of the atmosphere.
What you need is a read on the behavior of third and fourth year students. That is when gunner like behavior cutting in on your presentations, brown nosing, and edging you out of your patients is going to have an effect.
What you need is a read on the behavior of third and fourth year students. That is when gunner like behavior cutting in on your presentations, brown nosing, and edging you out of your patients is going to have an effect.
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For what it's worth, the AMSA survey has med students rate how competitive/supportive the student body is (1=competitive, 5=supportive).
I looked at a bunch of these and I didn't see anyone below 2.8, so we could normalize to 2.8, and make that "most competitive".
Here are a few in the lowest 0.5.
American University of the Carribean: 2.8 (n=11)
Grace Atlantic: 3.0 (n=1)
Ross University: 3.0 (n=27)
Hopkins: 3.3 (n=4)
These schools are in the highest 1.0.
UCSD: 4.0 (n=4)
Yale: 4.4 (n=7)
UCSF: 4.5 (n=5)
These schools are in the highest 0.5.
Stanford: 4.7 (n=7)
Duke: 4.7 (n=10)
Pritzker: 4.9 (n=8)
Harvard: 5.0 (n=4)
I thought this was pretty interesting. Generally, more prestigous programs have more cooperative student bodies, with one notable exception. Of course, we're looking at small sample sizes, and self selection bias. I bet if the 2 Hopkins students that posted on this thread were to submitt surveys, we would see a bump up in that score.
Here's the link:
http://www.amsa.org/premed/medsurvey/
I looked at a bunch of these and I didn't see anyone below 2.8, so we could normalize to 2.8, and make that "most competitive".
Here are a few in the lowest 0.5.
American University of the Carribean: 2.8 (n=11)
Grace Atlantic: 3.0 (n=1)
Ross University: 3.0 (n=27)
Hopkins: 3.3 (n=4)
These schools are in the highest 1.0.
UCSD: 4.0 (n=4)
Yale: 4.4 (n=7)
UCSF: 4.5 (n=5)
These schools are in the highest 0.5.
Stanford: 4.7 (n=7)
Duke: 4.7 (n=10)
Pritzker: 4.9 (n=8)
Harvard: 5.0 (n=4)
I thought this was pretty interesting. Generally, more prestigous programs have more cooperative student bodies, with one notable exception. Of course, we're looking at small sample sizes, and self selection bias. I bet if the 2 Hopkins students that posted on this thread were to submitt surveys, we would see a bump up in that score.
Here's the link:
http://www.amsa.org/premed/medsurvey/
I just have to make a plug for my school!! I will try to use my story and experience to make some general assertions that might be helpful as you are figuring out which school is for you.
I went to Stanford undergrad, which is a pretty cut-throat place although everyone is very good at pretending to be chill all the time while they play frisbee (!)
I applied out of state to UNC-Chapel Hill. It's a top 20 school (or was, then), but is in the top three for public health. I thought I was doing family medicine (I ended up in psychiatry), so that seemed perfect. About a third of our class goes to public health school in one year and gets an MPH (after 2nd year). We send folks to great residencies. The hospital itself is #18 in the country. We are a big public institution.
We are very laid-back. No med school is easy, but the way I judged the places when interviewing was the general attitude of the students as well as in the hospital. Spend some extra time wandering around the hospital, go to the cafeteria. You can get a decent idea of the atmosphere. Do this at Mass General and tell me what you think! Its pretty easy to feel that its very intense and busy!!!! Remember, after the first 2 years, you spend 2 years on the wards in the hospital. You want to feel comfortable interacting with docs, nurses, and staff. The easier it is to do this, the better you do on your clinical rounds, unless you are an unusually confident and assertive individual of course. Now, some people like more harsh environments -- I wanted a friendly environment because I knew this would bring out my strengths.
Also, spend some time in the town if you can. There is a big difference as Im sure you know between Chapel Hill, NC, and NY, NY, and Kansas City, MO. Figure out which makes you most comfortable. It really is pretty important, where you live. YOu might not imagine it will affect your success in school, but I would say it does.
Dont just talk to the students on the tours (they are all in good moods). If you can find out about how happy other students are, thats a good idea. Although I admit its hard to do. I think laid-back includes things like how much group studying goes on, how much people try to help each other and such. We were a very cohesive bunch. I guess a school like Yale can be laid-back because of the lack of grades, but it is also more of a school where people are working more individually, on various projects and such. Thats according to folks I know who attended. You may or may not like that kind of thing.
UNC has good research too, and everyone really is friendly, so you can approach people easily. At some of the Ivys and other competitive schools (not to slam Stanford, because I did enjoy it there, for undergrad, although I was sure I wanted a more mellow atmosphere for med school), you need to be a bit more ambitious in order to get research opportunities and things. Folks are very, very busy and their primary concern is their research. Of course, if you can get involved in things and work hard to do that, you have endless opportunities. So again, depends on your personality a bit.
UNC also has a lot of room for folks who need assistance. I have friends who failed some classes, and the school bent over backwards to help them. You wont want to ask the admissions committee stuff like that (!), but find out about it. You never know if anatomy might be overwhelming, or if you have some sort of personal tragedy, or if you/your spouse gets pregnant and such. You want a school that will support you no matter what.
Now, out-of-state schools are expensive like private schools, but find out the rules for getting residency. I got residency after my second year. I finished four years already and I am doing research and applying to residency this year.
I hope this was helpful. Feel free to e-mail me any and all questions about medical school and the process in general.
Felicity
I went to Stanford undergrad, which is a pretty cut-throat place although everyone is very good at pretending to be chill all the time while they play frisbee (!)
I applied out of state to UNC-Chapel Hill. It's a top 20 school (or was, then), but is in the top three for public health. I thought I was doing family medicine (I ended up in psychiatry), so that seemed perfect. About a third of our class goes to public health school in one year and gets an MPH (after 2nd year). We send folks to great residencies. The hospital itself is #18 in the country. We are a big public institution.
We are very laid-back. No med school is easy, but the way I judged the places when interviewing was the general attitude of the students as well as in the hospital. Spend some extra time wandering around the hospital, go to the cafeteria. You can get a decent idea of the atmosphere. Do this at Mass General and tell me what you think! Its pretty easy to feel that its very intense and busy!!!! Remember, after the first 2 years, you spend 2 years on the wards in the hospital. You want to feel comfortable interacting with docs, nurses, and staff. The easier it is to do this, the better you do on your clinical rounds, unless you are an unusually confident and assertive individual of course. Now, some people like more harsh environments -- I wanted a friendly environment because I knew this would bring out my strengths.
Also, spend some time in the town if you can. There is a big difference as Im sure you know between Chapel Hill, NC, and NY, NY, and Kansas City, MO. Figure out which makes you most comfortable. It really is pretty important, where you live. YOu might not imagine it will affect your success in school, but I would say it does.
Dont just talk to the students on the tours (they are all in good moods). If you can find out about how happy other students are, thats a good idea. Although I admit its hard to do. I think laid-back includes things like how much group studying goes on, how much people try to help each other and such. We were a very cohesive bunch. I guess a school like Yale can be laid-back because of the lack of grades, but it is also more of a school where people are working more individually, on various projects and such. Thats according to folks I know who attended. You may or may not like that kind of thing.
UNC has good research too, and everyone really is friendly, so you can approach people easily. At some of the Ivys and other competitive schools (not to slam Stanford, because I did enjoy it there, for undergrad, although I was sure I wanted a more mellow atmosphere for med school), you need to be a bit more ambitious in order to get research opportunities and things. Folks are very, very busy and their primary concern is their research. Of course, if you can get involved in things and work hard to do that, you have endless opportunities. So again, depends on your personality a bit.
UNC also has a lot of room for folks who need assistance. I have friends who failed some classes, and the school bent over backwards to help them. You wont want to ask the admissions committee stuff like that (!), but find out about it. You never know if anatomy might be overwhelming, or if you have some sort of personal tragedy, or if you/your spouse gets pregnant and such. You want a school that will support you no matter what.
Now, out-of-state schools are expensive like private schools, but find out the rules for getting residency. I got residency after my second year. I finished four years already and I am doing research and applying to residency this year.
I hope this was helpful. Feel free to e-mail me any and all questions about medical school and the process in general.
Felicity
sequencer said:
Gotcha. That makes more sense.Bluntman said:
That probably does make it more laid back, but the idea of having to retake tests until I pass them terrifies me. My third grade penmanship class was like that, and I retook the test for over a month before they finally stopped giving it to me. I never actually passed; they simply got tired of administering the exam to me and this one kid who was borderline special ed. (Either that or they thought it was bad for our self-esteem- CA was very concerned with our emotional health🙂sequencer said:
At my Einstein interview all of the students were gushing about how supportive and helpful the student body and profs are. They are P/F the first two years and say that the school doesn't rank for residency placement.
Drexel students are extremely helpful, but serious about school. Before tests the email list is full of people sharing review sheets, info, etc. I'm very impressed by the friendliness of their student body.
Drexel students are extremely helpful, but serious about school. Before tests the email list is full of people sharing review sheets, info, etc. I'm very impressed by the friendliness of their student body.
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