Most Holistic MD Programs in terms of the "Admissions Process" - Based on Experience

[Shaq]

sorry my post didn't really answer your question, but maybe it is useful nonetheless. i honestly think there is no school that gives an honest holistic review to every candidate who applies. i think it varies from reader to reader. if you get a more thoughtful reader, you are in luck. if not, you are in trouble.

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[pomo]

In my opinion, a lot of pre-medical students (myself included when I was applying) confuse holistic review with this - "I can let my grades or MCAT slip as long as I have other cool stuff on my resume. Who cares about grades and test scores anyway, I'd make a really cool doctor because I've done all this other interesting stuff in my life!! Patients would LOVE for me to be their doctor! I'm smart! My grades just don't show it!"

Let me stop you right there. You are WRONG! NEVER, EVER prioritize your "passions" and "extracurriculars" over grades and test scores if you are truly serious about going to med school. Yes, balance them, but have your priorities straight. The problem is that your grades and test scores are by far the easiest way for someone reading your application to judge you. The numbers are the first thing that people see, and having mediocre or poor numbers puts you behind the ball at the outset. This is because medical schools have to be absolutely sure that you can handle the immense workload. Taking a chance on an "interesting" applicant with lower numbers is not prudent for a medical school, since they invest lots of time and money into your training. Having you dropout would look bad, and it would also be financially disastrous. Thus, do not be under the false assumption that mediocre grades can be made up for with great extracurriculars. The extracurriculars/personal qualities enhance your application and get you to the finish line, but having mediocre stats puts you out of the race from the beginning. Some might argue that grades/mcats are not great predictors of med school performance. I agree, but what else do the adcoms have to go off but these objective things when reading your app?

In general, the way med schools review their apps is this, (some might call this a holistic review, I call it more of a checklist. The holistic review tends to become important only when two applicants are really close in the running, and there is a real dilemma as to who to admit):

1. Do you have solid grades and MCAT scores (i.e scores in the middle 50% of the school's published stats)? CHECK ---> a TON of people get rejected here!!!! they do NOT even make it past this!!!! you do not need a 4.0 and 40MCAT, but the lower your stats are in comparison to the school's average, the lower the likelihood of being interviewed. you tend to get some wiggle room here if you are URM or come from a disadvantaged background, but not as much as people might think.

2. Do you have quality clinical volunteering, shadowing and research experience? CHECK ----> still more people get cut here! many applicants don't meet all these criteria.

3. Do you have STRONG letters of rec? CHECK ---> most people have good letters. these are really hard to judge, since they all basically sound the same (unless your letter is from some nobel laureate, or some other well-known figure, it is tough to use LORs as a metric of comparison). BEWARE!!!! Having an AVERAGE letter is the kiss of death!

4. Well-written, thoughtful essays? CHECK --> in general, adcoms aren't looking for something super profound. something that is just honest and well-written will do. this factor really won't do MUCH overall in terms of getting you in, but having a POORLY written essay WILL hurt you. that being said, if you have something truly remarkable to discuss, it can help get you in, so WRITE IT!!

5. This last one is reserved for something that separates you from the rest. What is that one thing that makes you SO special. Did you play a division I sport? Did you publish a paper in Science? Did you found a non-profit that builds HIV clinics in Kenya? Did you get the Rhodes Scholarship? Did you do something TRULY remarkable in your life ?(and no being president of your fraternity isn't one of them....plenty of people found/lead student groups....that doesn't give you a SPECIAL quality...sorry).

*** #5 is NOT something you NEED to have to get into med school. If you are looking to get into a top 1o school, this is important. Having 1-4 will get you into MANY fantastic schools, and you will become a solid physician.

The problem with categories 2-4 is this: How do you compare applicants? Admittedly it is tough. If one applicant said he was president of his fraternity, and another student said he founded a community service group, it is damn near impossible to say who is the better applicant. Now if one of the applicants has higher numbers, cutting one applicant becomes easy. If both have similar stats, then the process becomes super subjective and you are at the mercy of the whim, personal taste and mood of the person reading your application file (which is NOT a good place to be). Thus, #2-4, and even #5, are very subjective indices of comparison that are unlikely to yield consistent results for applicants.

Additionally, the notion that the people reading your files have the time to give you a FULL AND FAIR review is a load of BS. There are so many applications to read, and so few people reading them (people who I might add are VERY busy), that many times your application won't get a fair read. Can someone really judge you as a person and prospective physician in just five minutes of reading your application file? Hell no! They will use very objective indicators to determine whether or not to interview you. If your grades and MCAT are solid, only THEN do the other things matter. I repeat my previous point -- the EASIEST WAY to judge MD applicants is numbers. I've read plenty of APPs, and the problem is that after 3 hours of reading, they all start to sound the same, and any sane human being will get irritated. Then, as you might imagine, readers begin to rely on factors in your application that are really easy to judge, rather than really getting to know the applicant as a person to make the BEST decision. This is really ******, but unfortunately it happens, even to the best of us. This is the one thing that irritates me most, but something I know that is near impossible to change without having an impractical number of volunteers reading MD applications. Any admissions officer or dean who says that their med school does an honest "holistic" review for EVERY person who applies is just lying. I know people have thrown BU around as one such school. Let me tell you that is absolutely false, and I know this from personal experience and having attended the school for undergrad, talking to people on the adcom and even having applied/interviewed there. The admissions dean at BU is a really nice guy and he gives off the impression that they are holistic. But c'mon man, you get 12000 applicants and interview 1000, and then enroll 150? No one there has the time to give 12000 people a holistic review!

All this being said, many people will give anecdotal evidence that what I am saying is wrong. I admit, there are many people who get into medical school with less than stellar stats, but they tend to have other TREMENDOUS aspects to their application, and INSANE obstacles they had to overcome. These people are TRULY special, and in the case of my school, are doing really well in classes right now. However the VAST majority of applicants, are not special enough to make up for a deficit in grades/mcat.

As far as the interview goes, people will say that the interview matters a whole lot. Yes it does, but realize that while only a few people interview you, everyone on the admissions committee has a vote on whether or not you get in. If 10 people are making a decision on your file, and only two of those ten interviewed you, that means the people who interviewed you have to convince the other eight to vote in favor of you. The other eight voting for you have never met you and have nothing to go on but your resume. Very few interviewers are willing to fight hard enough to change an entire adcom's perception of an applicant's academic credentials based on their personal interaction. Moral of the story, the NUMBERS ALWAYS MATTER EVEN AFTER YOU GET THE INTERVIEW!

Now for my final thought. Despite the fact that I've harped incessantly on having good scores and grades, don't let that consume you. Med schools do want real human beings, their flaws and imperfections included. I know many applicants with near perfect grades and 36+ MCATs who receive NO interviews. Thus, it is important to follow your passions, and do what you like, and make these things known to medical schools. My only advice is that you make sure that you prioritize your coursework and grades - make sure they are solid and respectable. Don't obsess over a few Bs here and there, or that rare C, but do maintain your grades and scores to a reasonable degree. If you don't you may not even get a shot to interview and explain how interesting a person you are outside of academic achievements. I see so many interesting applicants who I wish the adcom would interview, but these students get rejected because of low grades/MCAT. I implore you, try not to be one of them!

In any case, I hope this was helpful. You may not agree with everything I've said here, and my experience may not be indicative of what you will go through, but I do feel that what I've written is quite typical. Constructive comments/feedback are appreciated, but please don't hate. I'm not trying to discourage people. I'm just telling it as I've seen it.

Best of luck to everyone applying!

Thank you! Enjoyed reading your reflections on the admission process.

 

[pepes1lv1a]

Congrats on the interview (and MCAT score)! That's awesome! How many credits did you have a 4.0 with your DIY postbac?

Thanks to both of you guys! I had an EMT course, spring biochem retake, summer orgo II retake, and fall A&P lab/online spanish class. Not much but I was working at the ER full time. I honestly think it was the secondary that caught their attention. At the time I didn't think much of it but when I went back and read it, it wasn't stiff or overly formal like so many of my other essays. It was probably one of the only ones I wrote (and I wrote secondaries for many of my 40 completed apps o_o) that I felt conveyed my actual personality.

 

[MedPhys2MD]

I see there were a number of comments about the student who was an Olympic hold medalist... I think it's kind of unfair to that person to assume that they has poor grades. Unless you know that person directly and they're shared their stats with you.

What's to say they didn't have a 3.9 gpa & 40 mcat... Or a less extraordinary combination yet a respectable one. Maybe they also had other great EC in addition to this experience. I mention this to say, even those who are looked at "holistically" must have a certain acceptable level of academic achievement

 

[jw3600]

To be fair, all the info for this calculation is right underneath your username every time you post.

Precisely.

it's more the fact that he notices my ****** posts and cares enough to comment on them. who is he, the sdn police?

I literally (used correctly) have viewed 2 threads (this one and the "did you have any other horrible fellow interviewees like QuinnTheEskimo at your interviews" thread) in the past 48 hours off the pre med forum. In both, you have 3+ posts and multiple users openly agreeing that your posts and attitude in general is legitimately awful. If browsing 2 threads and noticing that the most annoying poster in both is actually the same (you) is creepy, than I guess I have to own it.

I am not even going to comment on the fact you have > 200 posts in 5 days because frankly it just feels too easy using that.

 

[Staffsy77]

This has become such a lively thread Great responses. I'll synthesize some follow up questions this afternoon...

 

[darklabel]

In my opinion, a lot of pre-medical students (myself included when I was applying) confuse holistic review with this - "I can let my grades or MCAT slip as long as I have other cool stuff on my resume. Who cares about grades and test scores anyway, I'd make a really cool doctor because I've done all this other interesting stuff in my life!! Patients would LOVE for me to be their doctor! I'm smart! My grades just don't show it!"

Let me stop you right there. You are WRONG! NEVER, EVER prioritize your "passions" and "extracurriculars" over grades and test scores if you are truly serious about going to med school. Yes, balance them, but have your priorities straight.

I agree with most of what you said, but I took OP's question as a life experience question. I didn't WANT to put grade below anything but stuff happened in my life and with my family that caused my grades to suffer. Am I paying the price for it? Yes but some schools saw things like recent trend, ECs, MCAT etc, took my life story into perspective and thought that I would make a good physician despite my below average stats.

But I agree, if I could go back and redo stuff, I would in a heartbeat, but sadly there is no reset button in life. But, I am eternally grateful that the "low tier" schools really do look at everything and giving people like me a second chance to start anew and become a physician.

 

[gumdrops]

In my opinion, a lot of pre-medical students (myself included when I was applying) confuse holistic review with this - "I can let my grades or MCAT slip as long as I have other cool stuff on my resume. Who cares about grades and test scores anyway, I'd make a really cool doctor because I've done all this other interesting stuff in my life!! Patients would LOVE for me to be their doctor! I'm smart! My grades just don't show it!"

Let me stop you right there. You are WRONG! NEVER, EVER prioritize your "passions" and "extracurriculars" over grades and test scores if you are truly serious about going to med school. Yes, balance them, but have your priorities straight. The problem is that your grades and test scores are by far the easiest way for someone reading your application to judge you. The numbers are the first thing that people see, and having mediocre or poor numbers puts you behind the ball at the outset. This is because medical schools have to be absolutely sure that you can handle the immense workload. Taking a chance on an "interesting" applicant with lower numbers is not prudent for a medical school, since they invest lots of time and money into your training. Having you dropout would look bad, and it would also be financially disastrous. Thus, do not be under the false assumption that mediocre grades can be made up for with great extracurriculars. The extracurriculars/personal qualities enhance your application and get you to the finish line, but having mediocre stats puts you out of the race from the beginning. Some might argue that grades/mcats are not great predictors of med school performance. I agree, but what else do the adcoms have to go off but these objective things when reading your app?

In general, the way med schools review their apps is this, (some might call this a holistic review, I call it more of a checklist. The holistic review tends to become important only when two applicants are really close in the running, and there is a real dilemma as to who to admit):

1. Do you have solid grades and MCAT scores (i.e scores in the middle 50% of the school's published stats)? CHECK ---> a TON of people get rejected here!!!! they do NOT even make it past this!!!! you do not need a 4.0 and 40MCAT, but the lower your stats are in comparison to the school's average, the lower the likelihood of being interviewed. you tend to get some wiggle room here if you are URM or come from a disadvantaged background, but not as much as people might think.

2. Do you have quality clinical volunteering, shadowing and research experience? CHECK ----> still more people get cut here! many applicants don't meet all these criteria.

3. Do you have STRONG letters of rec? CHECK ---> most people have good letters. these are really hard to judge, since they all basically sound the same (unless your letter is from some nobel laureate, or some other well-known figure, it is tough to use LORs as a metric of comparison). BEWARE!!!! Having an AVERAGE letter is the kiss of death!

4. Well-written, thoughtful essays? CHECK --> in general, adcoms aren't looking for something super profound. something that is just honest and well-written will do. this factor really won't do MUCH overall in terms of getting you in, but having a POORLY written essay WILL hurt you. that being said, if you have something truly remarkable to discuss, it can help get you in, so WRITE IT!!

5. This last one is reserved for something that separates you from the rest. What is that one thing that makes you SO special. Did you play a division I sport? Did you publish a paper in Science? Did you found a non-profit that builds HIV clinics in Kenya? Did you get the Rhodes Scholarship? Did you do something TRULY remarkable in your life ?(and no being president of your fraternity isn't one of them....plenty of people found/lead student groups....that doesn't give you a SPECIAL quality...sorry).

*** #5 is NOT something you NEED to have to get into med school. If you are looking to get into a top 1o school, this is important. Having 1-4 will get you into MANY fantastic schools, and you will become a solid physician.

The problem with categories 2-4 is this: How do you compare applicants? Admittedly it is tough. If one applicant said he was president of his fraternity, and another student said he founded a community service group, it is damn near impossible to say who is the better applicant. Now if one of the applicants has higher numbers, cutting one applicant becomes easy. If both have similar stats, then the process becomes super subjective and you are at the mercy of the whim, personal taste and mood of the person reading your application file (which is NOT a good place to be). Thus, #2-4, and even #5, are very subjective indices of comparison that are unlikely to yield consistent results for applicants.

Additionally, the notion that the people reading your files have the time to give you a FULL AND FAIR review is a load of BS. There are so many applications to read, and so few people reading them (people who I might add are VERY busy), that many times your application won't get a fair read. Can someone really judge you as a person and prospective physician in just five minutes of reading your application file? Hell no! They will use very objective indicators to determine whether or not to interview you. If your grades and MCAT are solid, only THEN do the other things matter. I repeat my previous point -- the EASIEST WAY to judge MD applicants is numbers. I've read plenty of APPs, and the problem is that after 3 hours of reading, they all start to sound the same, and any sane human being will get irritated. Then, as you might imagine, readers begin to rely on factors in your application that are really easy to judge, rather than really getting to know the applicant as a person to make the BEST decision. This is really ******, but unfortunately it happens, even to the best of us. This is the one thing that irritates me most, but something I know that is near impossible to change without having an impractical number of volunteers reading MD applications. Any admissions officer or dean who says that their med school does an honest "holistic" review for EVERY person who applies is just lying. I know people have thrown BU around as one such school. Let me tell you that is absolutely false, and I know this from personal experience and having attended the school for undergrad, talking to people on the adcom and even having applied/interviewed there. The admissions dean at BU is a really nice guy and he gives off the impression that they are holistic. But c'mon man, you get 12000 applicants and interview 1000, and then enroll 150? No one there has the time to give 12000 people a holistic review!

All this being said, many people will give anecdotal evidence that what I am saying is wrong. I admit, there are many people who get into medical school with less than stellar stats, but they tend to have other TREMENDOUS aspects to their application, and INSANE obstacles they had to overcome. These people are TRULY special, and in the case of my school, are doing really well in classes right now. However the VAST majority of applicants, are not special enough to make up for a deficit in grades/mcat.

As far as the interview goes, people will say that the interview matters a whole lot. Yes it does, but realize that while only a few people interview you, everyone on the admissions committee has a vote on whether or not you get in. If 10 people are making a decision on your file, and only two of those ten interviewed you, that means the people who interviewed you have to convince the other eight to vote in favor of you. The other eight voting for you have never met you and have nothing to go on but your resume. Very few interviewers are willing to fight hard enough to change an entire adcom's perception of an applicant's academic credentials based on their personal interaction. Moral of the story, the NUMBERS ALWAYS MATTER EVEN AFTER YOU GET THE INTERVIEW!

Now for my final thought. Despite the fact that I've harped incessantly on having good scores and grades, don't let that consume you. Med schools do want real human beings, their flaws and imperfections included. I know many applicants with near perfect grades and 36+ MCATs who receive NO interviews. Thus, it is important to follow your passions, and do what you like, and make these things known to medical schools. My only advice is that you make sure that you prioritize your coursework and grades - make sure they are solid and respectable. Don't obsess over a few Bs here and there, or that rare C, but do maintain your grades and scores to a reasonable degree. If you don't you may not even get a shot to interview and explain how interesting a person you are outside of academic achievements. I see so many interesting applicants who I wish the adcom would interview, but these students get rejected because of low grades/MCAT. I implore you, try not to be one of them!

In any case, I hope this was helpful. You may not agree with everything I've said here, and my experience may not be indicative of what you will go through, but I do feel that what I've written is quite typical. Constructive comments/feedback are appreciated, but please don't hate. I'm not trying to discourage people. I'm just telling it as I've seen it.

Best of luck to everyone applying!

This post deserves a slow-clap...

 

[justAstudent]

This post deserves a slow-clap...

 

[Staffsy77]

First, @pepes1lv1a - Excellent news for you! These are the kind of stories I was hoping to flush out. I hope that whatever way it goes, you'll be happy with the result.

@Shaq has given the most candid (and likely the most realistic/correct) advice. I'm aware it really it really can depend on the person with whom your app ends up, but I was curious, given all of the info out there about how "medical admissions are changing" (See the comment from @cybermaxx12 - Google his proposed Google, read, etc..) if people are seeing these changes in effect, first hand in terms of their own application process.

Having experienced a holistic review is not code for "my stats aren't great", though, that does often apply. It can, however, also mean "I wasn't the typical pre-med, and it is because I was looked at more holistically that I got through to school X". Again, just curious. Purely anecdotal evidence taken with a grain of salt.

@darklabel, I say good for you . I teach in the human anatomy laboratory at my home school, so I am constantly surrounded by a sea of very bright and determined pre-meds. Having something happen in your life that resulted in lower stats is always a challenge, and the other side will never know what that is like. Simple as that. It doesn't diminish the 4.0/40's, because getting there wasn't easy for them either, but I don't think you should feel diminished in the slightest, especially considering that you did have to fight to turn things around. Now you're headed to med school in the fall. Congrats on that note, and best of luck in your future career! You did interpret my question correctly

 

[Shaq]

I agree with most of what you said, but I took OP's question as a life experience question. I didn't WANT to put grade below anything but stuff happened in my life and with my family that caused my grades to suffer. Am I paying the price for it? Yes but some schools saw things like recent trend, ECs, MCAT etc, took my life story into perspective and thought that I would make a good physician despite my below average stats.

But I agree, if I could go back and redo stuff, I would in a heartbeat, but sadly there is no reset button in life. But, I am eternally grateful that the "low tier" schools really do look at everything and giving people like me a second chance to start anew and become a physician.

Hey yea totally agree! In fact I myself had a few poor grades senior year due to health problems. Many schools I applied to were very sympathetic, and I ended up doing well in the process overall. I totally see that. And I am not trying to say all students ignore the incredible importance of grades. I'm just speaking from personal experience. I underestimated the importance of grades and scores...and I definitely suffered for it.

 

[Shjanzey]

Tulane considered me despite my 2.99 sGPA. I'm hoping to hear a decision from them this week. I was STUNNED when I got the interview invite. I had a 4.0 "DIY" postbacc, 34Q MCAT, and work as an ER tech. No connection to NOLA, but when I went for the interview I fell in love with the place. Whether or not I get in, I am hugely grateful they even gave me a chance where so many other MD and DO schools auto-rejected me. Someone there must have looked beyond the numbers.

I am not quite sure why you would be stunned. Tulane is a private University. They don't care if you are from the state or not. They also have a metric of 32 minimum on your MCAT.

That being said. Tulane is a great school in a very nice location. Having a SO attend there has predisposed me to favoring them, even if they are a little expensive Good luck, I hope you get in.

 

[thisisansley]

From my interview experiences, I felt that Cooper and Florida State were incredibly holistic. But FSU pretty doesn't accept out of staters.

Though I have to say, I feel that every school I had the pleasure of interviewing at this season evaluated me very holistically. I have an average mcat score but it's very unbalanced and I thought that would work against me but I've been accepted at a bunch of places and they've pretty much all insinuated that my service experiences were the most impressive part of my app, not my stats.

 

[alpinism]

They both are right to some degree. Accepting an Olympic gold medalist isn't screaming "we look at the applications holistically" to me. It is just a "wow" factor.

Do you honestly think that there is much difference between average student at UCSF and Drexel aside from stats and possibly more research involvement?

Absolutely.

Average Drexel Student:
3.6/30, semester of research w/ a poster presentation, pre-med club president, hospital volunteering, community service, and shadowing.

Average UCSF student:
http://mdapplicants.com/profile.php...ccepted,search_school:84,psr:1,orderby:,order:

http://mdapplicants.com/profile.php?id=23090&refname=Search Results&refuri=search,search_appstatus:accepted,search_school:84,psr:0,orderby:,order:

 

[SunsFun]

Absolutely.

Average Drexel Student:
3.6/30, semester of research w/ a poster presentation, pre-med club president, hospital volunteering, community service, and shadowing.

Average UCSF student:
http://mdapplicants.com/profile.php...ccepted,search_school:84,psr:1,orderby:,order:

http://mdapplicants.com/profile.php?id=23090&refname=Search Results&refuri=search,search_appstatus:accepted,search_school:84,psr:0,orderby:,order:

Sorry I am not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me here.

 

[alpinism]

There's a huge difference in ECs

 

[medgal2016]

I'm not sure to be honest. Some of the folks who go to the elite schools really have some amazing things on their resumes (major awards, lots of research experience, and involvement in all kinds of extracurriculars). Aren't these commendable and shouldn't they be taken into account for admissions purposes?



Presumably, there is a reason that Harvard, UCSF, Hopkins, etc. don't simply take all the candidates with the highest LizzyM scores. Being productive in the laboratory might have some correspondence to future success in research. Doing sustained work in underprivileged communities might indicate that a candidate has strong moral convictions. Knowing 2+ languages might come in handy. There's more to life - and more to being a good doctor - than the MCAT...

I'm new to this site -- why is the term LizzyM used????

 

[Banco]

Holistic doesn't mean they don't care about numbers.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Data suggests that there is little difference in MD graduation rates for applicants who were admitted with 27 MCAT or higher and GPA 3.0 and higher (see table 4, page 15 of https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf)

The craziest thing here is the clear "legacy admits where daddy donated a solid $5 million or so" with serious connections like the 2.8/22's that are accepted still graduate the vast majority of time even if it might take an extra year. Unless there is something I am missing(I assume the one's who graduate the majority find their way into a residency as well).

 

[GrapesofRath]

I guess my question then is what causes the 2.2/23 applicants to get accepted? I'm assuming a serious hook. And yet statistically from that graph unless there is something I am missing close to 80% still graduate within 4-5 years. I guess my point was it's just interesting to realize that with all the emphasis on proving your worth by getting top stats that even straight C students with MCATs in the 30th-40th percentile still graduate about 80% of the time unless I am mis-interpreting something.

 

[WedgeDawg]

I guess my question then is what causes the 2.2/23 applicants to get accepted? I'm assuming a serious hook. And yet statistically from that graph unless there is something I am missing close to 80% still graduate within 4-5 years. I guess my point was it's just interesting to realize that with all the emphasis on proving your worth by getting top stats that even straight C students with MCATs in the 30th-40th percentile still graduate about 80% of the time unless I am mis-interpreting something.

I think in this case it's more about medical schools wanting the best that they can get rather than anyone who may be competent. It's a buyer's market, so why not try and get the cream of the crop?

 

[GrapesofRath]

I think in this case it's more about medical schools wanting the best that they can get rather than anyone who may be competent. It's a buyer's market, so why not try and get the cream of the crop?

That's all well and good but I guess what I was it's just interesting to see straight C students with MCAT scores clearly below the national average still finish medical school the vast majority of the time.

 

[WedgeDawg]

That's all well and good but I guess what I was it's just interesting to see straight C students with MCAT scores clearly below the national average still finish medical school the vast majority of the time.

Oh I see what you're saying. Yeah, that is interesting. I would guess that these 2.2/22 students aren't your "typical" 2.2/22 students though. There's probably some confounding variable in there that either masks other personality traits that allow such an individual to succeed in medical school or the person developed these traits with enough time to spare to graduate on time. My bet is the former. Given how few of these applicants matriculate, I suspect that the stats alone are not telling the whole picture and they had something else special that gave schools a reason to take a chance on them. I would imagine if you took a bunch of average 2.2/22 students and threw them into medical school you would get a different graph.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Oh I see what you're saying. Yeah, that is interesting. I would guess that these 2.2/22 students aren't your "typical" 2.2/22 students though. There's probably some confounding variable in there that either masks other personality traits that allow such an individual to succeed in medical school or the person developed these traits with enough time to spare to graduate on time. My bet is the former. Given how few of these applicants matriculate, I suspect that the stats alone are not telling the whole picture and they had something else special that gave schools a reason to take a chance on them. I would imagine if you took a bunch of average 2.2/22 students and threw them into medical school you would get a different graph.

What exactly these traits are I have absolutely zero idea. That's what I was hoping Gonnif or others could provide insight on and how these 2.2/22's make it happen.

 

[LizzyM]

@LizzyM, the Queen of Evil Numbers, is the grand dame of adcoms on SDN

They really aren't referring to me but my evil formula based on the old MCAT:

your GPA*10+MCAT compared with a schools average GPA*10+ average MCAT.

 

[tantacles]

They really aren't referring to me but my evil formula based on the old MCAT:

your GPA*10+MCAT compared with a schools average GPA*10+ average MCAT.

Is it wrong that the thing that devastates me most about the new MCAT is that we have to change the LizzyM formula?

 

[Psai]

Is it wrong that the thing that devastates me most about the new MCAT is that we have to change the LizzyM formula?

haha that thought literally just hit me as i read her post

 

[Goro]

Just convert the percentiles to the old test's numbers.

Is it wrong that the thing that devastates me most about the new MCAT is that we have to change the LizzyM formula?

 

[GrapesofRath]

You mentioned the pieces in your statement but didnt make the connection. Since medical schools want to admit applicants who will successfully complete programs and become physicians, they admit few who have 2.2/23 students, which would include those with extreme trends (e.g. failed out in 2 schools but later was extremely successful), took MCAT multiple times and scores are averaged (e.g.16, 22, 28, 34), and had other mitigating or outstanding factors. I have seen several "late immigrants" (ie come here as teen with little or no english) who have gone this route. It is these combinations of factors and trends that get examined and the few who get admitted. The typical 2.5/23 MCAT student who was consistently mediocre with no outstanding or mitigating factors that dont get admitted .

In sum, you have 2 cuts: first making it over the acceptance hurdle and then making thru the medical school program.

Well I'm glad you made the connection for me! Good stuff makes sense.

 

[Goro]

To follow p on my learned colleague's comments, and to answers the other questions about this, at my school, people with these horrible numbers are "legacies". They were admitted over the objections of the Adcom and sometimes even the Dean due to somebody having the right connections or a large donation check.

While most graduated, they were disproportionately higher in being at the bottom of the class, failing COMLEX, failing to graduate in four, or even five years, and in getting dismissed. One of our all-time worst students was one of these. He's now an anesthesiologist, and probably killing patients somewhere in the Northwest.


Luckily, we haven't had one in awhile, and they were RARE.

As gonnif sagely points out, at other schools, they are most likely successful reinventors whose numbers couldn't, on paper, couldn't remediate previous GPA and/or MCAT disasters.

You mentioned the pieces in your statement but didnt make the connection. Since medical schools want to admit applicants who will successfully complete programs and become physicians, they admit few who have 2.2/23 students, which would include those with extreme trends (e.g. failed out in 2 schools but later was extremely successful), took MCAT multiple times and scores are averaged (e.g.16, 22, 28, 34), and had other mitigating or outstanding factors. I have seen several "late immigrants" (ie come here as teen with little or no english) who have gone this route. It is these combinations of factors and trends that get examined and the few who get admitted. The typical 2.5/23 MCAT student who was consistently mediocre with no outstanding or mitigating factors that dont get admitted .

In sum, you have 2 cuts: first making it over the acceptance hurdle and then making thru the medical school program.

 

[WedgeDawg]

WTF? My guess is your legal background in this regard is limited

I think he was being facetious

 

[ChrisMack390]

Just convert the percentiles to the old test's numbers.

Forever? Let go of the past @Goro!


Perhaps we can use GPA*100, so the most competitive applicants would land somewhere in the high 800 - low 900s?

 

[RSK70]

I can give a non-trad's POV on "holistic".

Anyone reading MSAR will see this word at least twice in either a school's mission statement and/or selection factors. When I was considering going straight-through, I saw the word as fluff and carried on. However, after taking some time off and really getting to the heart of what a career and life in medicine entails, "holistic" took on a new meaning.

Guess it is one of those things you need to live to understand. Not flaming the "trads," but at the same time there is a lot more to life (and a competitive application) than numbers. Best of luck to all.

 

[ChrisMack390]

I can give a non-trad's POV on "holistic".

Anyone reading MSAR will see this word at least twice in either a school's mission statement and/or selection factors. When I was considering going straight-through, I saw the word as fluff and carried on. However, after taking some time off and really getting to the heart of what a career and life in medicine entails, "holistic" took on a new meaning.

Guess it is one of those things you need to live to understand. Not flaming the "trads," but at the same time there is a lot more to life (and a competitive application) than numbers. Best of luck to all.

Well my GPA sucks so I hope you are right

 

[Syns]

Duke.

 

[occams_razor]

Absolutely.

Average Drexel Student:
3.6/30, semester of research w/ a poster presentation, pre-med club president, hospital volunteering, community service, and shadowing.

Average UCSF student:
http://mdapplicants.com/profile.php?id=9129&refname=Search Results&refuri=search,search_appstatus:accepted,search_school:84,psr:1,orderby:,order:

http://mdapplicants.com/profile.php?id=23090&refname=Search Results&refuri=search,search_appstatus:accepted,search_school:84,psr:0,orderby:,order:

sorry to be that annoying person, but avg stats for drexel = 3.7/32 (according to MSAR 2016 edition), not anywhere near UCSF but still

 

[alpinism]

sorry to be that annoying person, but avg stats for drexel = 3.7/32 (according to MSAR 2016 edition), not anywhere near UCSF but still

I'm sure you're right but I posted that in Jan 2014 (using 2013 stats).

 

[medgal2016]

Is it wrong that the thing that devastates me most about the new MCAT is that we have to change the LizzyM formula?

i hate to ask "that" question -- pretty new-- but seeing much context to how to use this formula, old or new...

 

[occams_razor]

I'm sure you're right but I posted that in Jan 2014 (using 2013 stats).

oops, sorry about that! didn't notice the date haha