Most Profitable Specialty in Psychology?

[psychedout69]

Hi All -- I'm a PHD of psychology and I'd like to start a discussion on what the most profitable specialty a PHD of Psychology can specialize in these days for those of us who are goal oriented and profit minded.

My friends who are medical doctors are optimizing their value by focusing on fields that pay well, and I would like to do the same thing.

I'm actually really wishing I had taken the medical route and gone Psychiatrist at this point, because I've been so frustrated with how little respect a PHD of Psych seems to get, and all of my Psychiatrist friends are absolutely in huge demand right now, and literally cleaning up money-wise.

The folks I know doing private practice therapy just aren't making much, and are having a hard time getting and keeping clients. A lot of people seem to gravitate towards taking pills for a "quick fix" these days, and it is definitely hurting the therapy business.

Please provide some anecdotal examples or otherwise if you know people who are making well north of six figures in fields such as Neuropsychology, or Forensic Psych, etc... It seems like most people I know are lucky to make $50-60k a year with a PHD in Psych, and I would like to break out of that mold going forward.

Some ideas I have had:

- Go back to school and get a PA Masters so I can write prescriptions (Although I don't think the ROI is worth it?)
- Go back to school and get a Masters in Nursing Home Administration, so I can run a nursing home one day, or maybe start my own.
- Do another internship in Neuropsychology, and get a certificate specializing in that area so I can open my own testing facility one day.
- Get certified in Organizational Psychology. I keep hearing stories of people making close to $200k a year with OI certs available online in addition to their PHD's?
- Starting an "Online" psychology business on the side, maybe doing remote tele-therapy for people who are afraid to leave home, or too busy for traditional therapy. Also blogging, etc for profit.
- Working as an online professor in addition to my day job (Don't like trading time for money though, seems like I'm already working too hard)

Thanks!

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[PsyDr]

"Those of you that have innovated and are 7 standard deviations above the mean of the highest paid profession in psychology, I want you to tell me the highest work/lowest time paradigm and how to get into it."

You are asking a group of people who are smaller in number than the Yankees, how to do it, while simultaneously saying you "don't want to trade time for money".


Any idea how insulting this is?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

1. Go into a much more lucrative field.
2. Do something.
3. .....
4. Profit!

---

I doubt you'll find someone willing to tell them how they made their money (and for free?!), as they probably worked hard for it AND they don't want competition. I make a nice living and work <40 hr a week, and the last thing I want to do is screw up that setup by blabbing about how to do it. There are far easier ways to make 10x the money.....they just aren't in this field.

 

[psychedout69]

"Those of you that have innovated and are 7 standard deviations above the mean of the highest paid profession in psychology, I want you to tell me the highest work/lowest time paradigm and how to get into it."

You are asking a group of people who are smaller in number than the Yankees, how to do it, while simultaneously saying you "don't want to trade time for money".


Any idea how insulting this is?

Not an attempt to be insulting. Simply looking to trigger an open exchange of ideas about how those of us who are looking to take things to the next level can take massive action in order to do so. My medical doc friends have no problem discussing surgical specialties over gastroenterology, for example.

If you have found a niche for yourself that pays very well, and you are unwilling to share with the group -- I understand why you would take that position. It seems like that attitude is a very unfortunate byproduct of the current environment, and how tough it is out there for new docs. I'm not sure that the number of people doing very well financially is as small as you claim though -- and that seems like a rather defeatist attitude to take, no?

 

[psychedout69]

1. Go into a much more lucrative field.
2. Do something.
3. .....
4. Profit!

---

I doubt you'll find someone willing to tell them how they made their money (and for free?!), as they probably worked hard for it AND they don't want competition.

Ouch, the negativity. Let's try and keep this positive folks. There must be fields within Psychology that are very lucrative, no? You guys are dismissing 13 years of school, internships, and post-docs like it like it's an ART Major. LOL --

I'm hearing rumors from friends about Forensic Psych being the next big thing, for example -- but I'm not seeing many job postings. Same thing goes for PHD's operating with a PA, although I don't see much out there on that specialty. Have heard speculation that Obamacare is going to look to replace Psychiatrists with Psy/NPX's/PA's to save money? I know IO Psychologists personally who are killing it, but I can't tell if that is a trend that will continue long term?

My goal is to make a very informed decision about what direction to go in, rather than just guessing and plunging into something else that may not work out. Hopefully this thread will help some others too.

Thanks!

 

[psychedout69]

Here is one link I found that shows 10 different Psych specialties and what their average salaries are. It definitely does look like IO is the way to go for profits. Sports Psychology looks like it could be very lucrative if you were able to get in with the right clients. There is no mention of prescribing Psychs like NP's or PA's.

http://psychology.about.com/od/careersinpsychology/tp/psychology-career-trends.htm

 

[LucidMind]

Honestly, I don't know why you would put in all of the hard work for PhD in psychology if you were solely interested in making money. Why not major in accounting or business?

Most people I know go into psychology because they have a passion for helping people, research, academia, or a combination of all three.

IMO there are much easier ways to make boatloads of money than becoming a clinical psychologist.

 

[erg923]

I'm hearing rumors from friends about Forensic Psych being the next big thing, for example -- but I'm not seeing many job postings.

I hear rumors that practicing outside of your area of training/competence is a good way to have a licensing complaint filled against you.

Why don't you just do what enjoy and what (hopefully) you trained in during grad school/internship/post-doc.... do it well (clinically and business wise) and do it alot. I am not sure what "secret" you are trying to find here?

I would have to agree that this "not wanting to trade time for money" attitude aint gonna help ya much...

 

[erg923]

Personally, I am NOT making a killing but earn above average for being one year removed from my Ph.D. I do this by having a full time academic job at a small university and 2 other gigs on the side. One is a incredible pay given the time investment. The other, not so much. I really would have no desire to work more than I do for the sake of making more money. There are many other more valuable things in my life at the moment.

 

[psychedout69]

Honestly, I don't know why you would put in all of the hard work for PhD in psychology if you were solely interested in making money. Why not major in accounting or business?

Most people I know go into psychology because they have a passion for helping people, research, academia, or a combination of all three.

IMO there are much easier ways to make boatloads of money than becoming a clinical psychologist.

I'm sorry, but I never mentioned "solely" being in pursuit of money, I'd simply like to explore my options as a clinical psychologist, and possibly improve circumstances for my family.

Psychiatrists put in a similar amount of hard work because they have a passion for helping people, and nobody bats an eyelash when they get paid what they are worth. Why should it be able different for Psychologists? Momma didn't raise no martyr, I'm sorry 😉

 

[psychedout69]

Personally, I am NOT making a killing but earn above average for being one year removed from my Ph.D. I do this by having a full time academic job at a small university and 2 other gigs on the side. One is a incredible pay given the time investment. The other, not so much. I really would have no desire to work more than I do for the sake of making more money. There are many other more valuable things in my life at the moment.

Agreed, at some point you have to weigh the value of time with your family, etc. I know quite a few people doing the professor gig, and they seem to enjoy it, and the extra cash that it brings in.

For this reason, I'm really considering doing something more scalable that isn't a direct time for money swap. While IO psychology seems like the best paying specialty right now, for example -- I don't care for having to be on the road 50 weeks a year missing my family. The money for time swap just isn't worth it.

 

[psychedout69]

I hear rumors that practicing outside of your area of training/competence is a good way to have a licensing complaint filled against you.

Why don't you just do what enjoy and what (hopefully) you trained in during grad school/internship/post-doc.... do it well (clinically and business wise) and do it alot. I am not sure what "secret" you are trying to find here?

I would have to agree that this "not wanting to trade time for money" attitude aint gonna help ya much...

I'm willing to go back for more training / certs -- and never mentioned trying to work in a field I wasn't qualified for. Rash assumptions.

For an explanation on trading time for money, see my above post. Most businesses can be scalable, including Psych. Lots of ways I can think of to create a business that can grow, and prosper using a PHD in Psych as the basis. One great example would be starting a Psych clinic, and partnering with other Psychologists, or taking interns for supervision to help grow the business with less overhead. Building the business up over time, and selling it off when it comes time to retire.

 

[I heart Ellis]

This is a great topic and I'm not sure why it has gotten any flack. I see no reason that you cannot be in a 'helping profession' and at the same time be "goal oriented and profit minded." Personally, I believe that it is completely possilbe to do both without killing yourself or selling your soul. True, most people do not go into psychology to "rake it in" but now that we have chosen this as a career, there is nothing worng with trying to make it lucrative!

I know a number of psychologists with different VAs who are able to pull in $100k+ working no more than 40 hours per week. Addtionally, most of these psychologists also run a small specialized private practice (cash only) that bring in extra income (depending on how much time you want to work). However, considering that all VAs close at 4 pm, it would not be difficult to work a few extra hours per week on private practice, publications, or online teaching to increase income.

I would love to hear other's advice on this topic as I plan to not only help others, but help myself and my family as well!🙂

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I hear rumors that practicing outside of your area of training/competence is a good way to have a licensing complaint filled against you.

100% correct.

As for I/O work...it is completely different than what you would learn in a typical clinical/counseling program. You would have zero basis from which to try and practice.

 

[psychedout69]

This is a great topic and I'm not sure why it has gotten any flack. I see no reason that you cannot be in a 'helping profession' and at the same time be "goal oriented and profit minded." Personally, I believe that it is completely possilbe to do both without killing yourself or selling your soul. True, most people do not go into psychology to "rake it in" but now that we have chosen this as a career, there is nothing worng with trying to make it lucrative!

I know a number of psychologists with different VAs who are able to pull in $100k+ working no more than 40 hours per week. Addtionally, most of these psychologists also run a small specialized private practice (cash only) that bring in extra income (depending on how much time you want to work). However, considering that all VAs close at 4 pm, it would not be difficult to work a few extra hours per week on private practice, publications, or online teaching to increase income.

I would love to hear other's advice on this topic as I plan to not only help others, but help myself and my family as well!🙂

Great reply and thanks for the POSITIVE attitude! 😀

I do have some friends who have gone 100% private pay, and that is the only way they will accept therapy clients. This is an interesting business model, because they charge more in the range of $200-350/hr and take on very specialized clients who are able to afford their services. I asked them why they went that route, and they told me that they just don't like doing therapy that much -- and they can make $500/600 an hour doing testing, so they'll only take a therapy client if it's private pay. (Because the insurance companies only pay around $90-100/hr or less). It did take them years to build up a client list though, because they just took a very casual approach to things -- and only took clients that came to them for testing that were willing to pay any price for therapy, etc...

 

[graduatingsoon]

Here is one link I found that shows 10 different Psych specialties and what their average salaries are. It definitely does look like IO is the way to go for profits. Sports Psychology looks like it could be very lucrative if you were able to get in with the right clients. There is no mention of prescribing Psychs like NP's or PA's.

http://psychology.about.com/od/careersinpsychology/tp/psychology-career-trends.htm

I think it's good that you are looking into ways to increase your salary potential. However, I agree with what others are saying in that you have to practice within your area of expertise and competence. I saw in previous posts that you did not attend an APA program or APA internship. I think this is a big reason for why you are having a hard time making it in this field.

I/O psychologists do make good money compared to other psychologists. However, if you are not trained as an I/O psychologist you are not going to make $ in this area. Companies are not going to hire you just because you have a PhD in psychology. You have to be able to compete with MBA's and PHD's in organizational psychology when you know very little about management consulting, executive coaching, organizational restructuring etc. Why should anyone hire you to restructure their organization and provide them with expertise on how to hire their next CEO? I don't mean you specifically, just the typical person graduating with a PhD in psychology.

 

[psychedout69]

100% correct.

As for I/O work...it is completely different than what you would learn in a typical clinical/counseling program. You would have zero basis from which to try and practice.

That seems fair. So without going back to school for an MBA or other degree, it looks like IO is out for now.

Funny that the EPPP is so heavily focussed on IO psychology these days, but most clinical programs don't even touch the subject. I found that interesting recently taking the test.

 

[psychedout69]

I think it's good that you are looking into ways to increase your salary potential. However, I agree with what others are saying in that you have to practice within your area of expertise and competence. I saw in previous posts that you did not attend an APA program or APA internship. I think this is a big reason for why you are having a hard time making it in this field.

I/O psychologists do make good money compared to other psychologists. However, if you are not trained as an I/O psychologist you are not going to make $ in this area. Companies are not going to hire you just because you have a PhD in psychology. You have to be able to compete with MBA's and PHD's in organizational psychology when you know very little about management consulting, executive coaching, organizational restructuring etc. Why should anyone hire you to restructure their organization and provide them with expertise on how to hire their next CEO? I don't mean you specifically, just the typical person graduating with a PhD in psychology.

If you want to make money, you need to be in the top 10% in this field or get another graduate degree.

Thanks for another great reply! Agree that IO is out unless someone had an MBA or another degree as you mentioned.

Yes, the APA was sadly not possible for me, as I was on the road traveling for many years serving our country as a military spouse. Don't think it would be worth it to go back now because of the load of debt I'm already saddled with, so must continue forward motion and do my best with what I've earned.

Seriously though, the APA thing hasn't been a career killer, and is nothing to cry in my cookies about. It stops me from working for the Feds or Military, but so far that has been the only limitation I've seen. I work for a state government, so government work isn't completely out 😉

 

[graduatingsoon]

Thanks for another great reply! Agree that IO is out unless someone had an MBA or another degree as you mentioned.

Yes, the APA was sadly not possible for me, as I was on the road traveling for many years serving our country as a military spouse. Don't think it would be worth it to go back now because of the load of debt I'm already saddled with, so must continue forward motion and do my best with what I've earned.

You aren't licensed yet, correct? Won't your salary increase substantially once you are licensed? You may be able to work in a prison as psychologist? I don't know if they care about APA.

From what i've seen, the highest paying clinical jobs for psychologists are at the VA and at medical schools. These do indeed require the APA program and internship.

 

[nononora]

 

[Rivi]

Hahahah, post of the year

 

[psychedout69]

You aren't licensed yet, correct? Won't your salary increase substantially once you are licensed? You may be able to work in a prison as psychologist? I don't know if they care about APA.

From what iIve seen, the highest paying clinical jobs for psychologists are at the VA and at medical schools. These do indeed require the APA program and internship.

Thanks! Yep -- I'm waiting for my results again now. Should be licensed soon, and ya I'll get a little bump. (That's another thing they don't put enough emphasis on in school -- how hard it is to pass the EPPP, how much money and time you will spend on that -- but that's a whole separate thread! LOL)

The whole APA discussion is for another thread. Don't want to hijack this one, and get off track -- but I love where your head is at!

 

[graduatingsoon]

Thanks! Yep -- I'm waiting for my results again now. Should be licensed soon, and ya I'll get a little bump. (That's another thing they don't put enough emphasis on in school -- how hard it is to pass the EPPP, how much money and time you will spend on that -- but that's a whole separate thread! LOL)

The whole APA discussion is for another thread. Don't want to hijack this one, and get off track -- but I love where your head is at!

Just out of curiosity, how much will you be earning newly licensed at your state government job? What is your specialty area? I know some folks interested in this type of work so I want to be able to inform them about typical starting salaries once licensed.

 

[psychedout69]

Just out of curiosity, how much will you be earning newly licensed at your state government job? What is your specialty area? I know some folks interested in this type of work so I want to be able to inform them about typical starting salaries once licensed.

I'll provide a range so that I don't give too much personal information, but I'm happy to help --

Post-Docs at my site pay $50-70k, and licensed psychologists pay $65-75k depending on experience, etc. From there you can be promoted into management and make $75-85k, and so forth.

Most Docs I work with have a private practice on the side they work at night, weekends, etc.

Non-taxable income includes $100k for tuition reimbursement if you are willing to do 5 years on a contract, or I believe you can get $40k for 2 years.

** I should add that it's a pretty bad job, and if you can help it -- you don't want to work where I work. LOL... I do it for the money short term, but I wouldn't use numbers like these to encourage anybody to get into this profession.

Back to topic please 😀

 

[psychedout69]

Hahahah, post of the year

I guess you could say that about Psychology or truck driving - or whatever -- right? The fact remains that there are truck drivers who are content to drive for .30 cents a mile, and then there are truck drivers who start trucking companies, or specialize in a very high paying type of interstate commerce such as glass, or toxic waste, or oversize loads They didn't let the fact that they were truck drivers define them, or their earning potential. Savvy?

Another example -- My brother is in the computer business. He has always loved computers, but didn't like making $15/hr on the help desk just out of college. He studied hard, and got some great certifications in a very specialized software -- which, in addition to his MBA has allowed him to make over $60/hr now.

 

[graduatingsoon]

I'll provide a range so that I don't give too much personal information, but I'm happy to help --

Post-Docs at my site pay $50-70k, and licensed psychologists pay $65-75k depending on experience, etc. From there you can be promoted into management and make $75-85k, and so forth.

Most Docs I work with have a private practice on the side they work at night, weekends, etc.

Non-taxable income includes $100k for tuition reimbursement if you are willing to do 5 years on a contract, or I believe you can get $40k for 2 years.

** I should add that it's a pretty bad job, and if you can help it -- you don't want to work where I work. LOL... I do it for the money short term, but I wouldn't use numbers like these to encourage anybody to get into this profession.

Back to topic please 😀

That is low, especially for a stressful forensic position (for some reason i thought this was a state prison facility). What is your experience with testing? Maybe you can start doing some PP work on the side once/week and see how it goes while working at your current job. I do think that you will need to pull long hours to get to a 6 figure income at least for the first few years and I wouldn't recommend diving into PP right away without a job and benefits.

I understand your point, but I don't think there are any secrets to earning a high 6 figure income, especially in a saturated field like psychology. There is no substitute for working hard and being at the top of your area. It's much easier for psychiatrists and MBA's to earn a high income so your comparison is not a fair one.

 

[psychedout69]

That is low, especially for a stressful forensic position (for some reason i thought this was a state prison facility). What is your experience with testing? Maybe you can start doing some PP work on the side once/week and see how it goes while working at your current job. I do think that you will need to pull long hours to get to a 6 figure income at least for the first few years and I wouldn't recommend diving into PP right away without a job and benefits.

LOL -- Agreed, which is why I'm working to improve my situation, and hoping to help others in the process.

I'm actually a NeuroPsych specialist, and was lucky enough to do both my practicum and internship under one of the top 3 NeuroPsych specialists in the region. Got experience on dozens of tests, and thousands of hours booked in testing facilities working with clients under supervision. Not sure what additional schooling or post-docs would be needed for me to market myself as a Neuropsychologist, but I've certainly got the knowledge and experience in that area.

 

[PsyDr]

Yeah, I can see why you think I am not positive.

Lemme splain:

Your post is no different than the person who never comes to group project meetings and then asks for his/her name to be out on the project. In essence you are asking people who put in the work to share, without doing it yourself.

I say it all the time here. As always: expecting the same reward for different levels and qualities of work is not right.

Then again, for some the importance of the function is not found in itself, but rather about what the person thinks the action signifies about them.

Btw: you realize "north of six figures" is making over a million dollars a year, right? I could give you the stats on what the high ball figure is, but I don't want to because of my first point.

 

[psychedout69]

Yeah, I can see why you think I am not positive.

Lemme splain:

Your post is no different than the person who never comes to group project meetings and then asks for his/her name to be out on the project. In essence you are asking people who put in the work to share, without doing it yourself.

I say it all the time here. As always: expecting the same reward for different levels and qualities of work is not right.

Then again, for some the importance of the function is not found in itself, but rather about what the person thinks the action signifies about them.

Btw: you realize "north of six figures" is making over a million dollars a year, right? I could give you the stats on what the high ball figure is, but I don't want to because of my first point.

I always say aim for the moon and you just might reach the stars 😉 -- But seriously -- We're discussing any and all ways to elevate your earning potential in the field of Psychology.

This is a thread for business minded folks in the community to come together and discuss the future of our profession, what the areas of growth are, and the top specialties. There are currently no resources in the community that help new docs find this information out.

I don't really know what is behind the personal attacks towards me -- But they aren't appreciated or necessary.

 

[erg923]

I'm actually a NeuroPsych specialist, and was lucky enough to do both my practicum and internship under one of the top 3 NeuroPsych specialists in the region. Got experience on dozens of tests, and thousands of hours booked in testing facilities working with clients under supervision. Not sure what additional schooling or post-docs would be needed for me to market myself as a Neuropsychologist, but I've certainly got the knowledge and experience in that area.

Aside from that fact that I have no idea what a "NeuroPsych Specialist" is, or why you are using said term to allude to subdicipline of clinical neuropsychology (apparently)....Is that actually what you think neuropsychology is? Administering tests?!

The above should help you gain some insight into one of the ways in which you are not portraying yourself in the best light here.

 

[psychedout69]

Aside from that fact that I have no idea what a "NeuroPsych Specialist" is, or why you are using said term to allude to subdicipline of clinical neuropsychology (apparently)....Is that actually what you think neuropsychology is? Administering tests?!

The above should help you gain some insight into one of the ways in which you are not portraying yourself in the best light here.

For a group of people with such a high level of education and professionalism (I certainly hope your level of professionalism is higher than this with your clients) -- This conversation has gone from passive aggressive to downright aggressive.

I'll be removing myself from the thread shortly, and this forum. If anybody would like to contact me directly to discuss this topic further -- feel free to PM.

Bye!

 

[graduatingsoon]

LOL -- Agreed, which is why I'm working to improve my situation, and hoping to help others in the process.

I'm actually a NeuroPsych specialist, and was lucky enough to do both my practicum and internship under one of the top 3 NeuroPsych specialists in the region. Got experience on dozens of tests, and thousands of hours booked in testing facilities working with clients under supervision. Not sure what additional schooling or post-docs would be needed for me to market myself as a Neuropsychologist, but I've certainly got the knowledge and experience in that area.

You won't be able to market yourself or practice as a neuropsychologist without an APA internship that meets the guidelines and then a 2 year postdoc fellowship in neuropsychology, among other requirements.

The problem you are having is that you are trying to be in the top 1% of earnings in a very competitive field with 5th tier credentials (online PhD from a non-accredited program). This is not really possible.

 

[neuronic]

ERG923 echoed my sentiments exactly, and feel he was just voicing concern regarding competence. I would hope other neuropsychologists would also be concerned when reading "Not sure what additional schooling or post-docs would be needed for me to market myself as a Neuropsychologist, but I've certainly got the knowledge and experience in that area."

 

[erg923]

For a group of people with such a high level of education and professionalism (I certainly hope your level of professionalism is higher than this with your clients) -- This conversation has gone from passive aggressive to downright aggressive.

I'll be removing myself from the thread shortly, and this forum. If anybody would like to contact me directly to discuss this topic further -- feel free to PM.

Bye!

Well, you dont need to be such a drama queen about it. Geez. But, realize, you apparently aren't versed in the subdiciplines that you are seemingly wanting to exploit (ie., your obvious lack of basic knowledge about the field of neuropsychology). It doesn't paint a pretty picture. Hence, the reaction and stern feedback. Not what you want to hear (obviously), but these are ethical issues that you should be considering in your quest to be a 1 percenter. Which, by the way, will be especially difficult considering you lack the basic prereqs for many employers (APA accredited program and APA internship).

 

[PsySeeker]

I think it's ok to enter this field and attempt to maximize future profitability. It certainly isn't why I entered it, but I'm going to keep it in mind as I make training decisions. I think an eyes wide open approach, paired with good information from people like you can help someone willing to put the work in to land doing something they love AND making money that's well above the median (again, not overnight, but by making informed decisions from the beginning and putting real time and effort in)

 

[bmedclinic]

Personally, I am NOT making a killing but earn above average for being one year removed from my Ph.D. I do this by having a full time academic job at a small university and 2 other gigs on the side. One is a incredible pay given the time investment. The other, not so much. I really would have no desire to work more than I do for the sake of making more money. There are many other more valuable things in my life at the moment.

I think this is it. If you're a person who is passionate about psychology (and if you worked to get a phd I sure hope you are/were), I think realizing that psychology isnt some cash cow but that you're still able to be somewhat business saavy without ripping off clients is possible. You dont have to start a methadone clinic to make a good living. I plan to find a way into a clinical health speciality and then open a side business when time allows (coffee shop bc I LOVE coffee).

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I definitely do think there's room for discussing and improving the "business of psychology," and in fact I feel that this is probably a topic that's significantly under-explored in grad school, internship, and postdoc. However, I agree with some previous sentiments that perhaps a good place to start would be to look at ways of improving earning potential and efficiency within the areas in which you've already gained competence and are comfortable practicing.

 

[Sanman]

I definitely think there is room for more business savvy in psychology. However, I really don't know if specialty had as much to do with it as payor mix. Having a positive reputation with other providers helps. On the other hand, often being unethical and business minded ends up producing the most money. I know people of both ends of the spectrum. Psychology may never leave you with an easy path to riches, but being able to obtain a stable six figure income is not as hard as some make it out to be, IMO.

 

[graduatingsoon]

Having a positive reputation with other providers helps. On the other hand, often being unethical and business minded ends up producing the most money. I know people of both ends of the spectrum. Psychology may never leave you with an easy path to riches, but being able to obtain a stable six figure income is not as hard as some make it out to be, IMO.

From my experience working with private pay patients and consulting to other providers, it is so much easier to "sell your skills " to patients/referring physicians when you are well-trained, can articulate the value of the treatment, are using the "gold standard" in terms of treatment, and keep outcome data on your patients. You really don't have to be unethical. This is one option that maybe works for some so I understand where you are coming from.

 

[Sanman]

From my experience working with private pay patients and consulting to other providers, it is so much easier to "sell your skills " to patients/referring physicians when you are well-trained, can articulate the value of the treatment, are using the "gold standard" in terms of treatment, and keep outcome data on your patients. You really don't have to be unethical. This is one option that maybe works for some so I understand where you are coming from.

I never said you have to be unethical. I just said that being unethical (or least not having the highest level of ethics) can be a path to success. At the most basic level, there are two ways to increase your pay; increase the amount you are paid per time unit (min,hr,etc) or increase volume. The best way to increase the amount paid per time is to choose the highest payor mix possible (private pay of good insurance). Having good credentials is largely the way to do this. However, having the right connections helps. There are plenty of psychologists on talk shows, in magazines and newspapers, etc that are not the experts in their field and may not be particularly good. However, they become in demand because their name is circulated within pop culture circles. That path is less ethical, but effective.

The other path is volume. However, the pursuit of volume often leads to an ethical slippery slope. I could hire every master level clinician and licensed psychologist with third rate credentials or that can't find a job and have them see medicaid pts for peanuts while shaving off enough to cover expenses and a few bucks per pt. It is rather unethical, but one could easily become wealthy doing so. There are plenty of early career clinicians that can attest to that.

 

[PsySeeker]

I Psychology may never leave you with an easy path to riches, but being able to obtain a stable six figure income is not as hard as some make it out to be, IMO.

👍 This is heartening to hear and what I've suspected based on the anecdotal evidence I've collected from the few providers I know. SDN seems overly pessimistic to me much of the time, and yet it is full of top quality advice and people. I'm not looking to get rich, I'm attracted to it for other reasons, but it is important to me to be able to bring in the type of income you mention (eventually and with quality work). The providers I know are doing it mostly with therapy, it seems to me that there is more money in assessment, as well as within the spheres of nueropsychology and forensics, but I don't know anyone in those fields, so most of my views are based on what I can collect from SDN.

 

[Sanman]

👍 This is heartening to hear and what I've suspected based on the anecdotal evidence I've collected from the few providers I know. SDN seems overly pessimistic to me much of the time, and yet it is full of top quality advice and people. I'm not looking to get rich, I'm attracted to it for other reasons, but it is important to me to be able to bring in the type of income you mention (eventually and with quality work). The providers I know are doing it mostly with therapy, it seems to me that there is more money in assessment, as well as within the spheres of nueropsychology and forensics, but I don't know anyone in those fields, so most of my views are based on what I can collect from SDN.

I'm not saying it is cake. However, most any VA ,AMC, or state/federal government positions will get you there. Throw in some successful private practices that are around and you have a decent number of jobs offering good pay. The numbers can be deceiving, but look at the most recent APA salary survey. The averages would suggest that your need to be in the 75th percentile, but take a look at the modal distributions by years in practice. Most people start in the $60-80K range and are in the $75-100k range by the time they hit the 10 year career mark. Now, you have to exclude all of those individuals that prefer free time over increased income. I know plenty of people that choose lifestyle and benefits over maximizing income and I am betting that if the numbers were done it would show this. Often, I see this with female colleagues that are married with kids that have more home responsibility and spouses with better incomes.

 

[PsySeeker]

I'm not saying it is cake. However, most any VA ,AMC, or state/federal government positions will get you there. Throw in some successful private practices that are around and you have a decent number of jobs offering good pay. The numbers can be deceiving, but look at the most recent APA salary survey. The averages would suggest that your need to be in the 75th percentile, but take a look at the modal distributions by years in practice. Most people start in the $60-80K range and are in the $75-100k range by the time they hit the 10 year career mark. Now, you have to exclude all of those individuals that prefer free time over increased income. I know plenty of people that choose lifestyle and benefits over maximizing income and I am betting that if the numbers were done it would show this. Often, I see this with female colleagues that are married with kids that have more home responsibility and spouses with better incomes.

I agree, and I hear you, it isn't cake, but I see no reason that someone with business savvy and the drive and will to put the time and effort in can't make mid-six figures as a clinical psychologists by or before that 10 year mark (and yes, before I get called out for this, I mean a clinical psychologists who has undergone excellent training, is competent in whatever they are practicing and utilizes best practices). The difference is that that income isn't a virtual lock like it is in psychiatry, that's why it likely requires some combination of the characteristics I listed to break above six figures. On the other hand I love clinical psychology, I am fully aware of these requirements to make money in it, and I have made the decision to pursue it with open eyes. Put another way, I'd rather do something I love well, often, and perhaps even creatively than something I don't have a passion for or don't even like (i.e. medical school and all its requisite training in physiological pathology... can't tell you how many times people have asked why I'm not going to get my MD, that is after I explain to most that a clinical psychologists and a psychiatrysts are not the same... 🙄).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The providers I know are doing it mostly with therapy, it seems to me that there is more money in assessment, as well as within the spheres of nueropsychology and forensics, but I don't know anyone in those fields, so most of my views are based on what I can collect from SDN.

This isn't a good way to approach things though. If you are deciding on your work based on money...you are probably going to be miserable. You have to really want to do assessment work (or really any specific work), or you'll be miserable having to do it day in and day out. Neuropsych and/or forensic assessment is far from the panecea people make them out to be on here. It is HARD work, often STRESSFUL, and there are NUMEROUS of hoops you need to navigate to get to the point where you can actually do it well enough to try and make a career of it.

 

[PsySeeker]

This isn't a good way to approach things though. If you are deciding on your work based on money...you are probably going to be miserable. You have to really want to do assessment work (or really any specific work), or you'll be miserable having to do it day in and day out. Neuropsych and/or forensic assessment is far from the panecea people make them out to be on here. It is HARD work, often STRESSFUL, and there are NUMEROUS of hoops you need to navigate to get to the point where you can actually do it well enough to try and make a career of it.

Sound advice and informative, I appreciate it. I'm not really approaching it from a profit stand point, more making an observation. Personally I think one can make a respectable income in PP doing mostly therapy, and it seems one could make more money in a sub-specialty or doing assessment (this is what I've gleaned from SDN), whether it is worth all the difficulties you've listed to me personally I don't yet know. I'm not sure exactly what path I will follow yet, I've been trying to learn as much as I can (on here and elsewhere) and make informed decisions. I'm most interested in having a career I love and can excel at, but future sustainability and profitability do need to factor in to a certain extent. I can shape my career in psychology from the bottom up starting now, and I want to make the best choices I can.

 

[graduatingsoon]

👍 This is heartening to hear and what I've suspected based on the anecdotal evidence I've collected from the few providers I know. SDN seems overly pessimistic to me much of the time, and yet it is full of top quality advice and people.

If you haven't even started a program in clinical psychology, I don't know how you can say that people on here are overly pessimistic. They are the ones going through the job market and working in private practices. I just spent the past year interviewing for post-doctoral positions and jobs so I have a good sense of salaries in my area and geographic region.

When prospective students say that they spoke to providers they know, I'm not sure what that means. Did you get actual numbers from them? Are you considering that X person who is making 6 figures has 30 years of experience and has trained in the top places or is working 60+ hours per week? Did you speak to people who are only late in their career or early in their career? Often times people assume that someone is making 6 figures just because they charge $150 per session and make a decision to go into this field based on erroneous information. Also, it is socially acceptable for most people to say they are doing well and enjoy what they are doing. Why should they be completely honest with you unless they know you well? Did you spend time interviewing them and asking all the tough questions or are you just assuming they are doing well based on how much they charge? I don't mean you specifically.

 

[edieb]

Sound advice and informative, I appreciate it. I'm not really approaching it from a profit stand point, more making an observation. Personally I think one can make a respectable income in PP doing mostly therapy, and it seems one could make more money in a sub-specialty or doing assessment (this is what I've gleaned from SDN), whether it is worth all the difficulties you've listed to me personally I don't yet know. I'm not sure exactly what path I will follow yet, I've been trying to learn as much as I can (on here and elsewhere) and make informed decisions. I'm most interested in having a career I love and can excel at, but future sustainability and profitability do need to factor in to a certain extent. I can shape my career in psychology from the bottom up starting now, and I want to make the best choices I can.

The insurance rates for therapy are dropping precipitously. Thus, I don't know how you think you will make a respectable income by the time you finish your Ph.D. Unless there is some powerful mitigating factor (e.g., you're Judith Beck, etc), you are not going to make much money conducting psychotherapy. If you are planning on being an applied psychologist, I highly recommend you become a psychiatrist and conduct therapy on the side.

 

[graduatingsoon]

Personally I think one can make a respectable income in PP doing mostly therapy.

Agree with edieb. PP therapy is one of the worst ways to make a living as a psychologist. You are also not getting paid for sick leave, annual leave, no benefits, no disability leave. I wouldn't bother spending 7-8 years in training if this is your main goal.

 

[PsySeeker]

If you haven't even started a program in clinical psychology, I don't know how you can say that people on here are overly pessimistic. They are the ones going through the job market and working in private practices. I just spent the past year interviewing for post-doctoral positions and jobs so I have a good sense of salaries in my area and geographic region.

When prospective students say that they spoke to providers they know, I'm not sure what that means. Did you get actual numbers from them? Are you considering that X person who is making 6 figures has 30 years of experience and has trained in the top places or is working 60+ hours per week? Did you speak to people who are only late in their career or early in their career? Often times people assume that someone is making 6 figures just because they charge $150 per session and make a decision to go into this field based on erroneous information. Also, it is socially acceptable for most people to say they are doing well and enjoy what they are doing. Why should they be completely honest with you unless they know you well? Did you spend time interviewing them and asking all the tough questions or are you just assuming they are doing well based on how much they charge? I don't mean you specifically.

I know one person mid career, PP, therapy only, takes insurance, did not graduate from a top school but not a professional school, and probably working 50hrs a week, maybe 35 client hours. mid hundreds. I know two masters level people with similar backgrounds but in early stages of PP getting close to six figures. I know another mid-career PhD making mid hundreds doing mostly assessment. No I'm not adjusting for the cost of health insurance, personally this is not a concern for me, but I know that for many it is a major obstacle. My point with all this, it can be done, it is not impossible.

As to the pessimism on these boards, I did not say everyone here is overly pessimistic, I said some people here are. I also said I value the advice and experiences of people on these boards, you included. That being said this thread is getting pretty negative... We should be able to discuss what parts of clinical psychology are working for people without dwelling on what isn't too much.

 

[PsySeeker]

The insurance rates for therapy are dropping precipitously. Thus, I don't know how you think you will make a respectable income by the time you finish your Ph.D. Unless there is some powerful mitigating factor (e.g., you're Judith Beck, etc), you are not going to make much money conducting psychotherapy. If you are planning on being an applied psychologist, I highly recommend you become a psychiatrist and conduct therapy on the side.

Thanks for the advice, but I don't think you read my post too closely, I never said I intended to do primarily therapy... Nothing close to that really. I'm not sure if your trolling with the psychiatry bit... I was pretty clear I have no interest in that. lol