Most Scutwork Programs

[DrNick2006]

While one thread is trying to debunk rumor, I choose to embrace it, so please post any programs that you have heard are too heavy on the scutwork. Don't hold back.

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[Butter Pecan]

OK I'll bite:

Georgetown.

(this is unsubstantiated rumor, but I've heard it from several sources)

 

[InternalWhizzzz]

OK I'll bite:

Georgetown.

(this is unsubstantiated rumor, but I've heard it from several sources)

I second Georgetown, that and the hospital is in financial red for years....not to mention two unfilled spots.

 

[inositide]

I'm not a georgetown student, but from everything I have been able to learn,
the rumors about georgetown have some basis but they have been very exaggerated. Georgetown medicine program still has a decent reputation and georgetown medicine residents still get nice fellowships. The hospital was in some financial distress, but a few years ago it was partially or completely purchased by MedStar health which is a very large hospital management company. The present is pretty good and the future looks good for georgetown as well. One major reason for 2 unfilled spots was that the program was too selective and did not make their rank list long enough. It is very safe to say that this year the program will not go unfilled.

Georgetown medicine was never the equivalent of Johns Hopkins medicine (how many programs are?), but it is still a good program.

 

[DrNick2006]

I've been told Albert Einstien - Beth Israel and NYU

 

[BigBadBix]

I'll second NYU and add Columbia - heard from a current resident that their intern year is full of scut.

 

[InternalWhizzzz]

I'll second NYU and add Columbia - heard from a current resident that their intern year is full of scut.

Yah, I've heard about NYU as well. Unfortunately, their medicine program isn't really strong either compared to Cornell, Mt. Sinai and Columbia...

 

[Legend]

NYU and Columbia

 

[PickyBicky]

I'll second NYU and add Columbia - heard from a current resident that their intern year is full of scut.

I'll second that for Columbia.....I have a buddy who is doing a prelim year and reports that it is scutt-laden. The overwhelming spanish-speaking population can be a tremendous source of frustration as well if you do not have some working knowledge of the language. Just an FYI.

-PB

 

[InternalWhizzzz]

I'll second that for Columbia.....I have a buddy who is doing a prelim year and reports that it is scutt-laden. The overwhelming spanish-speaking population can be a tremendous source of frustration as well if you do not have some working knowledge of the language. Just an FYI.

-PB

excuse me? over-whelming spanish speaking? you guys are aware that spanish is hte official language of the united states?

well it is in California...good luck on doing residencies here, if you guys no hables espanol?

 

[InternalWhizzzz]

I'll second that for Columbia.....I have a buddy who is doing a prelim year and reports that it is scutt-laden. The overwhelming spanish-speaking population can be a tremendous source of frustration as well if you do not have some working knowledge of the language. Just an FYI.

-PB

I had heard that it was scutwork for prelim programs, not really categorical?

 

[fantasty]

well it is in California...good luck on doing residencies here, if you guys no hables espanol?

Since this is a rumor thread, I'll add - we have a dept devoted to international opportunities for students, and the director recently told me that many CA programs (at least, the community-based ones, although maybe the academic too) will not consider you without Spanish, and some programs do ROUNDS in Spanish.

(I'm not bitching because of the patients speak Spanish - I just wish I would have rethrought my previous decision of taking German instead of Spanish - D'oh!)

 

[BigBadBix]

I had heard that it was scutwork for prelim programs, not really categorical?

The person I know who said there was lots of scut was categorical, so I think it's everybody, unfortunately.

 

[PickyBicky]

Since this is a rumor thread, I'll add - we have a dept devoted to international opportunities for students, and the director recently told me that many CA programs (at least, the community-based ones, although maybe the academic too) will not consider you without Spanish, and some programs do ROUNDS in Spanish.

(I'm not bitching because of the patients speak Spanish - I just wish I would have rethrought my previous decision of taking German instead of Spanish - D'oh!)

I don't speak spanish and I really don't care to learn. More power to a program that will use that as a determining factor in choosing their house staff. Personally, I have no regrets studying French instead of Spanish.

According to my buddy doing a prelim year at Columbia, his schedule is nearly identical to the categoricals. This is all second hand information, but is consistent with what BigBadBix reports from his Columbia contact.

This is such a relative question, though. What intern year is not full of scut? I would say it's a fair assumption that any program which spends time at a large county/urban hospital will have a greater scut ratio compared with programs centered largely around a tertiary referal center (Eg. Emory Vs. Mayo-Rochester). This is just conjecture. Anybody else care to speculate?

-PB

 

[BigBadBix]

This is such a relative question, though. What intern year is not full of scut? I would say it's a fair assumption that any program which spends time at a large county/urban hospital will have a greater scut ratio compared with programs centered largely around a tertiary referal center (Eg. Emory Vs. Mayo-Rochester). This is just conjecture. Anybody else care to speculate?

-PB

Yeah, I was thinking about this as well. I agree that any intern is going to have to deal with scut, and I think the amount of scut varies quite a bit between programs. It seems to me that it's worse at places with poor ancillary services and less competent nursing, both of which seem to be more common in the county setting than in private hospitals or large academic centers. Also I think the facilities play a role - it's a lot different to do all your own ECG's than to do your own ECG's when you can't find a machine that works.

I also have a theory that the atmosphere of a program impacts on its reputation for scutwork. It seems the places I hear complaints about are those where residents do scut all day, with little teaching/support from faculty. I wonder if other programs that have similar amounts of scut perhaps offset it with a strong emphasis on teaching and a receptive PD. This would make their residents happier and less likely to complain, thus resulting in less of a reputation for scutwork. Of course now I'm really speculating, so who knows...any other thoughts?

By the way, despite my masculine-sounding username, I'm a female. I'm not big or bad, either.

 

[Heme/Onc]

Since this is a rumor thread, I'll add - we have a dept devoted to international opportunities for students, and the director recently told me that many CA programs (at least, the community-based ones, although maybe the academic too) will not consider you without Spanish, and some programs do ROUNDS in Spanish.

(I'm not bitching because of the patients speak Spanish - I just wish I would have rethrought my previous decision of taking German instead of Spanish - D'oh!)

It is one thing to look at a candidate who speaks spanish as a plus. But requiring a resident to speak spanish is ridiculous and a form of discrimination. Moreover, conducting rounds in spanish is equally ridiculous.....this is still america!

And before I have someone jumping down my throat and calling me a racist....I am married to a brazilian woman and I love latino cultures, but excluding someone from a program because they don't know spanish is going a little too far.

 

[Heme/Onc]

I know it is a rumor thread but if something like this is true......................

 

[InternalWhizzzz]

By the way, despite my masculine-sounding username, I'm a female. I'm not big or bad, either.

so what exactly do you have that's really big and bad ?

 

[Fermi]

It is one thing to look at a candidate who speaks spanish as a plus. But requiring a resident to speak spanish is ridiculous and a form of discrimination.

Well, communication is part of your clinical skill set, and if the patient population at that institution is primarily Spanish-speaking, the program might feel that residents need to know Spanish in order to be an effective and efficient clinician there.

However, I've found that it's sort of all-or-nothing; in order to be truly effective, you either have to be fluent or have an interpreter. Especially with complicated cases, if you're just going off of rudimentary Spanish you might really be missing or misinterpreting something.

 

[Zolpidem25]

By the way, despite my masculine-sounding username, I'm a female. I'm not big or bad, either.

really?? you totally had me fooled. this whole time i was thinking you were a guy.... i guess i'll have to revise my mental-picture-based-on-user-name approach. i think its fun though to create an imaginary face for each person that you talk to on these forums. i'd prefer to have the gender correct though.

 

[DrNick2006]

Im a woman as well.

 

[DrNick2006]

j/k for those who are a little confused now.

 

[BigBadBix]

really?? you totally had me fooled. this whole time i was thinking you were a guy.... i guess i'll have to revise my mental-picture-based-on-user-name approach. i think its fun though to create an imaginary face for each person that you talk to on these forums. i'd prefer to have the gender correct though.

Wow, I guess I really confused everyone. I think it was a bad choice of username, but it was a long time ago and everything else I could think of included too much of my real name to be anonymous. Anyway, I have a mental picture of everybody, too. And it just occurred to me that I have been assuming almost all the people on this IM forum are guys, and I could be totally wrong. Weird how we make assumptions like that.

(Also, sorry for hijacking the thread a bit there...)

 

[DoctorSax]

Nah, BBB, we're all still talking about rumors here. You basically just speculated, or shall I say "rumored" that everyone on SDN is a guy.

Hope the ladies aren't offended if I still call them dudes. Rumor has it that some programs prefer that when you refer to ladies, you call them "dudettes".

DS

 

[Tar Heel Born]

Last I heard, "BigBadBix = female" was still just at rumor status. After all, BigBadBix is the only one that's bringing forth these allegations....

 

[Zolpidem25]

Last I heard, "BigBadBix = female" was still just at rumor status. After all, BigBadBix is the only one that's bringing forth these allegations....

Solid point, Tar Heel.

Furthermore, I may in fact be a he-she.

 

[BigBadBix]

Last I heard, "BigBadBix = female" was still just at rumor status. After all, BigBadBix is the only one that's bringing forth these allegations....

Tar Heel, you are nearly as cynical as I am about what is said on these forums! But you make a good point. Seeing as there's no way to prove that I'm not a guy, I guess I'll just remain shrouded in mystery. I always wished I was one of those mysterious types anyway...

 

[ucladukes]

It is one thing to look at a candidate who speaks spanish as a plus. But requiring a resident to speak spanish is ridiculous and a form of discrimination. Moreover, conducting rounds in spanish is equally ridiculous.....this is still america!

And before I have someone jumping down my throat and calling me a racist....I am married to a brazilian woman and I love latino cultures, but excluding someone from a program because they don't know spanish is going a little too far.

Dude, I think the person who posted the "rounding in spanish" thing was joking.

By the way, congrats on the Brazillian woman, they're hot

Also, the US doesn't have an official language, we just conventionally speak English

 

[fantasty]

Dude, I think the person who posted the "rounding in spanish" thing was joking.

By the way, congrats on the Brazillian woman, they're hot

Also, the US doesn't have an official language, we just conventionally speak English

No - I wasn't joking. That's what the global studies program director told me after she arrived back from a conference, but she didn't specifically tell me what programs she was talking about - just that they were in CA in areas where a large % of patients are spanish speaking, and I made the assumption these were more community-based programs rather than your academic programs.

Now, it's certainly possible that SHE was exaggerating (trying to get me to take medical spanish, perhaps?), or she misinterpreted the data she got at the conference. But, she's pretty smart and has been working hard to improve our international and diversity opportunities...

 

[novacek88]

I'll add Mt. Sinai and pretty much every program in NY aside from Cornell and Columbia

 

[quidnunc]

Hi guys,

As a 4th yr in Los Angeles, I'll say first-hand that medical Spanish is a plus, especially when rotating in county hospitals like Harbor, Olive View, etc.. However, this doesn't mean that residency programs will require (or take away points from your application for that matter) if you don't speak Spanish. Simply put, it's a plus if you have it (or any other commonly spoken language). Regarding the rounding in Spanish, I think (as it was pointed out earlier) that it was merely hyperbole just to stress a point.

I think the ability to be multi-lingual becomes an asset when applying to residency programs in large cities with various ethnic/cultural groups, particularly those that are community or county-hospital centered. My 2 cents.

 

[BStein76]

Hi guys,

I think the ability to be multi-lingual becomes an asset when applying to residency programs in large cities with various ethnic/cultural groups, particularly those that are community or county-hospital centered. My 2 cents.

Not speaking a foreign language is fine as long as the hospital provides ancillary services such as adequate translators. Using family members you have no control over what is truly being said. Doing an H+P using a telephone translator never seems to feel right and if the hospital does not provide adequate translators, it can really slow you down (especially in ambulatory clinics where time per patient is very limited). On the wards if a person is not available for translation, we use ATT operators that we dial up through either a cordless phone or the patients' bedside phone and it is really awkward handing the phone back and forth.

 

[Heme/Onc]

Well, communication is part of your clinical skill set, and if the patient population at that institution is primarily Spanish-speaking, the program might feel that residents need to know Spanish in order to be an effective and efficient clinician there.

However, I've found that it's sort of all-or-nothing; in order to be truly effective, you either have to be fluent or have an interpreter. Especially with complicated cases, if you're just going off of rudimentary Spanish you might really be missing or misinterpreting something.

I respect your opinion but this is an english speaking nation and making a foreign language a requirement for a residency position (which is essentially funded by the federal government) is frankly discriminatory.

 

[raph91]

It's the nature of the beast. For better or worse, we as residents will make better assets for the program. If we speak Spanish in a largely Spanish speaking area, we prove to be better resources for that hospital because things get done more efficiently and patient care may be better. It's the same reason somebody with a lot of research experience in a specific area may be more desirable to a specific hospital whose research falls within the same area. Or why perhaps computer experience may be more desirable in a program that is trying to develop its computer systems. It's another resource to make the hospital "better."

I agree that it sucks and that it SHOULDN'T be a major point, but for some people it is, and it does make sense in a business sense. And remember, this is all business. It's in a program's best interests to pick somebody who will get along well in their program, who will contribute back to their program, and who will pass the boards when they're done and get a good fellowship. If a person can clearly get along better in the hospital or in that community (maybe by speaking Spanish) then it becomes in their best interests.

This all reminds me of what a well-known Cuban cardiothoracic surgeon once started complaining about to a number of doctors. He was complaining that everywhere he goes, there's Spanish written, in hospitals, etc. He was saying that yes he does try and make sure his children remember their culture and their language, but he also said, having come to the US from overseas, he had to learn the language and nowadays it's less encouraged than it was when he first came here because now you CAN get away with speaking minimal or no English. He said that Spanish-speaking patients get sent to him all the time but he won't speak to them in Spanish if they can't speak English. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with him. But it's interesting how people have been here for a while may differ from those immigrating here now.

 

[CTKN2]

I agree with Raphe91, there are definitely pros/cons of requiring second languages, especially Spanish.

Also, keep in mind that a lot of jobs outside of medicine often say that having that language skill is "desirable"...no one would argue that this is discrimination....perhaps if it said "required" it'd be a different story....

 

[BStein76]

It's the nature of the beast. For better or worse, we as residents will make better assets for the program. If we speak Spanish in a largely Spanish speaking area, we prove to be better resources for that hospital because things get done more efficiently and patient care may be better. It's the same reason somebody with a lot of research experience in a specific area may be more desirable to a specific hospital whose research falls within the same area. Or why perhaps computer experience may be more desirable in a program that is trying to develop its computer systems. It's another resource to make the hospital "better."

I go to school in the South where one can have between 50-80% of your patients that do not speak english fluently. In some hospitals, the ancillary staff is great and I can get some of the staff to translate and I barely notice the difference in time. However at other hospitals, there are no translators available and the phone translators effectively double the time you have to spend. Furthermore, it is hard to build a therapeutic relationship when you are talking to a person next to you via a speakerphone. At least for me, at residencies where there is a signficant non-English speaking population, I always ask the residents about the availability of a translator 24 hours a day.

 

[DoctorDo-Little]

I respect your opinion but this is an english speaking nation and making a foreign language a requirement for a residency position (which is essentially funded by the federal government) is frankly discriminatory.

Come on! Requiring that residents speak Spanish is clearly NOT discriminatory... That's like saying that requiring a resident to have research experience is discriminatory. We all have our own set of skill that make us more or less attractive to particular programs. Having 3 publications might make you more attractive to a research oriented programs. Similarly, having fluent Spanish might make you more attractive to another. And if a program has a population that's 80% Spanish only, it's not unreasonable to require that the residents can actually communicate with them. And the story of the Cuban cardiologist refusing to speak Spanish to his patients out of principle is just rediculous. Is there a problem with latinos not learning English in the US? Clearly. But should we really be addressing this in the doctor's office, while someone's complaining of unstable angina?

 

[Zolpidem25]

Come on! Requiring that residents speak Spanish is clearly NOT discriminatory... That's like saying that requiring a resident to have research experience is discriminatory. We all have our own set of skill that make us more or less attractive to particular programs. Having 3 publications might make you more attractive to a research oriented programs. Similarly, having fluent Spanish might make you more attractive to another. And if a program has a population that's 80% Spanish only, it's not unreasonable to require that the residents can actually communicate with them. And the story of the Cuban cardiologist refusing to speak Spanish to his patients out of principle is just rediculous. Is there a problem with latinos not learning English in the US? Clearly. But should we really be addressing this in the doctor's office, while someone's complaining of unstable angina?

Well said.

 

[mojetter]

THIS TYPE OF "WHO'S RIGHT/WRONG" IS WHY IT'S SO DAMN HARD TO GET INFO AT SDN. PLEASE STICK TO THE TOPIC, NOT ELABORATE ARGUMENTS ABOUT THINGS SAID THAT YOU DO OR DON'T LIKE. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE STOP THE MADNESS.

So does anyone else want to offer an ON TOPIC post?

 

[DrNick2006]

i like cheese.

 

[Zolpidem25]

THIS TYPE OF "WHO'S RIGHT/WRONG" IS WHY IT'S SO DAMN HARD TO GET INFO AT SDN. PLEASE STICK TO THE TOPIC, NOT ELABORATE ARGUMENTS ABOUT THINGS SAID THAT YOU DO OR DON'T LIKE. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE STOP THE MADNESS.

So does anyone else want to offer an ON TOPIC post?

I ALSO LIKE TO TYPE EVERYTHING IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE I KNOW THAT IT WILL GET EVERYONE'S ATTENTION. IN FACT, I AM SLAMMING EACH KEY ON MY KEYBOARD REALLY HARD RIGHT NOW AS I TYPE.

THIS CAPITAL LETTER EXTRAVAGANZA IS SOOO EXHILIRATING....